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Donald X.

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Minor note about new printings
« on: October 26, 2020, 06:13:45 am »
+14

With new copies of Seaside, Prosperity, and Hinterlands printed recently, some cards have new wordings. Mostly they are non-functional changes.

Functional changes:
- Trader's reaction is now a when-gain rather than a when-would-gain; in most situations this isn't different, but it simplifies some confusing situations. This means that now any when-gain abilities of the gained card will still work, even if you exchange it for a Silver.
- Oracle now says +2 Cards again, rather than "draw 2 cards." This change is to have Way of the Chameleon interact with new copies in the same way that it does with most printed copies, and was already in the online version.
- Embargo has now been printed with the errata it has had for a while.

Cosmetic changes:
- Treasures no longer will say "when you play this" on such abilities; they just say what they do when played. Changed cards: Bank, Contraband, Loan, Venture, Ill-Gotten Gains.
- Treasures no longer say they're "worth" a certain amount; instead they use "+$" like non-Treasures. Changed cards: Bank, Fool's Gold.
- Some "while this is in play" abilities now say "while you have this in play" to be clearer. Changed cards: Lighthouse, Goons, Hoard, Royal Seal, Talisman, Haggler.
- I continue to drop "not less than $0" from cards that lower costs. Changed cards: Quarry, Peddler, Highway.
- Peddler has been rephrased for clarity.
- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

There are other cards that will eventually get some of these general changes (e.g., Relic will no longer say "when you play this"), but they haven't been printed yet.

Full texts of changed cards:

* * *

Seaside:

Embargo: Action, $2
+$2
Trash this to add an Embargo token to a Supply pile. (For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, they gain a Curse.)

Lighthouse: Action - Duration, $2
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn, +$1.
----------
While you have this in play, when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you.

Prosperity:

Bank: Treasure, $7, worth $?
+$1 per Treasure card you have in play (counting this).

Contraband: Treasure, $5, worth $3
$3 [big coin]
+1 Buy
The player to your left names a card. You can’t buy that card this turn.

Goons: Action - Attack, $6
+1 Buy
+$2
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
----------
While you have this in play, when you buy a card, +1VP.

Hoard: Treasure, $6, worth $2
$2 [big coin]
----------
While you have this in play, when you buy a Victory card, gain a Gold.

Loan: Treasure, $3, worth $1
$1 [big coin]
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure. Discard it or trash it. Discard the other cards.

Peddler: Action, $8*
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
----------
During a player's Buy phase, this costs $2 less per Action card they have in play.

Quarry: Treasure, $4, worth $1
$1 [big coin]
----------
While this is in play, Action cards cost $2 less.

Royal Seal: Treasure, $5, worth $2
$2 [big coin]
----------
While you have this in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.

Talisman: Treasure, $4, worth $1
$1 [big coin]
----------
While you have this in play, when you buy a non-Victory card costing $4 or less, gain a copy of it.

Venture: Treasure, $5, worth $1
$1 [big coin]
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure. Discard the other cards. Play that Treasure.

Hinterlands:

Fool's Gold: Treasure - Reaction, $2, worth $?
If this is the first time you played a Fool's Gold this turn, +$1, otherwise +$4.
----------
When another player gains a Province, you may trash this from your hand, to gain a Gold onto your deck.

Haggler: Action, $5
+$2
----------
While you have this in play, when you buy a card, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Highway: Action, $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
----------
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less.

Ill-Gotten Gains: Treasure, $5, worth $1
$1 [big coin]
You may gain a Copper to your hand.
----------
When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.

Oracle: Action - Attack, $3
Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, and discards them or puts them back, your choice (they choose the order). Then, +2 Cards.

Trader: Action - Reaction, $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a Silver per $1 it costs.
----------
When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to exchange the card for a Silver.

* * *

Someone is thinking, hey those treasures say "worth," what gives. That's just how my text versions indicate what goes in the upper corners of the Treasure cards; it's not a word in the card texts.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 02:43:28 pm by Donald X. »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2020, 08:02:27 am »
+3

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.
Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:04:31 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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D782802859

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 08:34:23 am »
+4

Finally we are free of the prison of putting when you play this" on kingdom treasures. Great changes all around.
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gambit05

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 08:49:57 am »
+4

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.
Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.

It makes perfect sense. Like other on-gain/on-buy effects it is separated by a dividing line. Even more important, in our playing groups it happened more than once that we forgot this ability because it was hidden in a wall of text.
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AJD

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2020, 12:48:15 pm »
+3

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.
Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.

It makes perfect sense. Like other on-gain/on-buy effects it is separated by a dividing line. Even more important, in our playing groups it happened more than once that we forgot this ability because it was hidden in a wall of text.

It's definitely going to cause more confusion about whether you can react with Moat etc. to buying Noble Brigand.
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gambit05

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2020, 01:04:20 pm »
0

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.
Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.

It makes perfect sense. Like other on-gain/on-buy effects it is separated by a dividing line. Even more important, in our playing groups it happened more than once that we forgot this ability because it was hidden in a wall of text.

It's definitely going to cause more confusion about whether you can react with Moat etc. to buying Noble Brigand.

I don't think so, rather the opposite as playing the card and buying it is well separated now. Moat and similar cards can react only when an Attack card is played. Noble Brigand, when bought is still not played, it just follows its instructions (as it did before).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2020, 01:09:53 pm »
+6

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.
Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.

It makes perfect sense. Like other on-gain/on-buy effects it is separated by a dividing line. Even more important, in our playing groups it happened more than once that we forgot this ability because it was hidden in a wall of text.

It's definitely going to cause more confusion about whether you can react with Moat etc. to buying Noble Brigand.

I agree with this, and I also think it will cause more confusion about things like "can you react with Moat when a player plays Minion for +". It's been a good thing that "attack" in Dominion has been clearly defined as "a card that has the type 'attack'." It's not "a thing you do that hurts other players" or "an ability that feels like an attack". With this change, Noble Brigand suddenly introduces a new use/definition for the word "attack". A usage that players have to rely on intuition to know the meaning of.
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2020, 01:38:11 pm »
+2

I don't see why it's any more or less confusing now than it used to be. It feels like the same problem.
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Heikes Zweiter

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2020, 02:04:33 pm »
+2

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.
Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.

It makes perfect sense. Like other on-gain/on-buy effects it is separated by a dividing line. Even more important, in our playing groups it happened more than once that we forgot this ability because it was hidden in a wall of text.

It's definitely going to cause more confusion about whether you can react with Moat etc. to buying Noble Brigand.

I agree with this, and I also think it will cause more confusion about things like "can you react with Moat when a player plays Minion for +". It's been a good thing that "attack" in Dominion has been clearly defined as "a card that has the type 'attack'." It's not "a thing you do that hurts other players" or "an ability that feels like an attack". With this change, Noble Brigand suddenly introduces a new use/definition for the word "attack". A usage that players have to rely on intuition to know the meaning of.

I have mixed feelings about "attack" in a card text. Of course everybody recognize what the "attack" of a card is. But until now "attack" was defined just as card type. The attack itself were some orders beginning with "each other player" and so by principle not different then orders for the player of the card. Especially in translation processes we have had troubles until the printer grasped the difference between type and orders other players have to do.

So will there be an additional rule about "attack"? Or will this problem get tackled by Noble Brigand's FAQ only?

Additional problem: The attack is the revealing and trashing by the other players. The gaining of the trashed cards is in seperate sentence and as such not recognizable as part of the attack.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 02:16:57 pm by Heikes Zweiter »
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Chris is me

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2020, 02:29:29 pm »
+10

I don't see why it's any more or less confusing now than it used to be. It feels like the same problem.

Before, there was no in game mechanics usage to justify the idea that "the attack" refers to the part of the card that affects other players. This wording introduces that meaning of the word "attack" which is separate from the existing meaning of the word "attack" that is used in all other cases.
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2020, 02:52:46 pm »
+3

It's been a good thing that "attack" in Dominion has been clearly defined as "a card that has the type 'attack'." It's not "a thing you do that hurts other players" or "an ability that feels like an attack".

Noble Brigand aside, I strongly disagree. It's been a bad thing that has caused lots of confusion. Ideally cards would have a part of their text that said "Attack: Each other player gains a Curse." or something like that. And then Moat could react to Ill-Gotten Gains, etc. Donald X. came up with this solution after the fact.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2020, 03:13:15 pm »
+1

It's been a good thing that "attack" in Dominion has been clearly defined as "a card that has the type 'attack'." It's not "a thing you do that hurts other players" or "an ability that feels like an attack".

Noble Brigand aside, I strongly disagree. It's been a bad thing that has caused lots of confusion. Ideally cards would have a part of their text that said "Attack: Each other player gains a Curse." or something like that. And then Moat could react to Ill-Gotten Gains, etc. Donald X. came up with this solution after the fact.

I agree... I don't think our 2 points are contradictory. By "it's been a good thing..." I meant within the context of how cards are worded/printed currently. It has caused confusion, but we've always been able to point to a clearly-defined rule to respond to that confusion. Now all of the sudden, there is no clear definition of "attack" in Dominion anymore. Sure it could have been different from the beginning where "attack" wasn't a type at all, but that's outside the scope of what I was talking about.
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Donald X.

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2020, 03:55:37 pm »
+6

Noble Brigand didn't follow the rule of having a dividing line to separate things that happen at another time. Now it follows that rule. Hooray!

Repeating the text of the attack below the line did not seem possible. So it says a cryptic "do its attack." In practice everyone will know what that means, and there's a rulebook. That's how I see it. Obv. a better fix would be to replace the card, but that isn't an option without an update pack, meaning replacing more cards. Maybe someday.

The cards are printed, we'll see how it goes! Good luck, Noble Brigand!
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2020, 04:28:26 pm »
+5

It could have been "when you buy this, play it" (which would have made it a tiny bit more powerful)... I suppose the issue with that is that you're playing the card before you actually gained it, which is also weird.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2020, 04:59:29 pm »
0

It could have been "when you buy this, play it" (which would have made it a tiny bit more powerful)... I suppose the issue with that is that you're playing the card before you actually gained it, which is also weird.

I almost posted this. The extra + when you buy it probably wouldn't be a big increase in strength, and it would be a bit offset by the ability for people to reveal Moat, etc when you buy it. But playing the card before gaining it would be pretty bad, because I guess then the gain would just fail to move it to your discard pile, but you still do gain it, after you finish playing it? It would just be weird. And changing it to on-gain would definitely be a bigger power-level boost.
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2020, 05:54:15 pm »
+2

It could have been "when you buy this, play it" (which would have made it a tiny bit more powerful)... I suppose the issue with that is that you're playing the card before you actually gained it, which is also weird.

I almost posted this. The extra + when you buy it probably wouldn't be a big increase in strength, and it would be a bit offset by the ability for people to reveal Moat, etc when you buy it. But playing the card before gaining it would be pretty bad, because I guess then the gain would just fail to move it to your discard pile, but you still do gain it, after you finish playing it? It would just be weird. And changing it to on-gain would definitely be a bigger power-level boost.

You could play it, leaving it in the supply (until you gain it).
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2020, 09:09:19 pm »
0

I know this is a very late reply, and allthough i understand you looking for simplicity, i am not sure leaving out the "if he did" really would improve Soothsayer by that much to make it worth regretting stuff (assuming you regret doing it the way you did).

When blocking an attack by Moat or Lighthouse, it's clear (or at least pretty intuitive) that i don't have to gain a Curse. But what about the drawing? That doesn't seem like an attack. Moat says "unaffected by the attack", not "by the attack card". so does this mean i can draw a card? Council Room lets me draw one and there it isn't an attack. By adding "if he did" the point becomes moot, and i would argue it avoids confusion for new players who don't have that firm a grasp on what "attack" type means.
Well the fix would be for Moat to say "Attack card." "Card" is supposed to be implicit; there is no such thing as an Attack that is not an Attack card. But it could be explicit.
(Emphasis added.) (Asper was mistaken in the above quote: Moat has always said "Attack card.")
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Violet CLM

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2020, 10:56:44 pm »
+3

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to exchange the card for a Silver.
No longer goes infinite when combined with Forum and a cost reducer. Probably for the best.
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2020, 04:48:44 pm »
0

Noble Brigand: "When you buy this, each other player... (as above)."

GendoIkari

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2020, 07:23:00 pm »
+3

I'm not seeing any advantage of any of the proposed solutions over the 1st edition wording. Sure it was the only action card that said “when you play this” before its on-play instructions. But now only card to use the word “attack” to mean something other than a card with the type attack. So either way it’s doing something that no other card does.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2020, 08:12:09 pm »
+3

I'm not seeing any advantage of any of the proposed solutions over the 1st edition wording. Sure it was the only action card that said “when you play this” before its on-play instructions. But now only card to use the word “attack” to mean something other than a card with the type attack. So either way it’s doing something that no other card does.
I suggest that the strongest fix is to make more new cards that say "when you buy or play this" or even "when you gain or play this."
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2020, 11:43:49 pm »
0

I suggest that the strongest fix is to make more new cards that say "when you buy or play this" or even "when you gain or play this."

I doubt that wording will ever return, given that there are new solutions now (see Villa, Cavalry, and Night Watchman).

Quote from: Night Watchman's secret history
At first it said "when you gain or play this," then it switched to being gained to your hand after Billy [Sir Martin] suggested that.
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2020, 12:14:12 am »
+2

It's not like anyone buys noble brigand anyway  :P
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Donald X.

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2020, 01:10:25 am »
+3

It's not like anyone buys noble brigand anyway  :P
I know, right?

The original wording is no good. I can't live with it. And it's gone, treasure your collector's item first edition copies.

The new wording does something no other card does; it is not unique in that though, there are other cards that do something no other card does (for example, only Masquerade has the verb "pass," and it got a special separate rulebook explanation at the time, though now I'm happy just covering it in the card notes). I am cool with that. Maybe I should have sucked it up and had microtext on the card, or said "continued in rulebook." I went with something I knew everyone would understand; it's covered in the rulebook for the people who don't.

Again the cards are printed. And I mean no regrets so far.
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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2020, 01:30:24 am »
0

Wait, I'm a bit confused now.  Is there actually a practical difference in Noble Brigand?  Does "do its attack" mean its on-gain effect is now moatable?  Or is this just a different wording for the same effect?
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