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Author Topic: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks  (Read 10277 times)

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Donald X.

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Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« on: September 24, 2019, 04:05:01 pm »
+23

I am changing some rules and errata-ing some cards. And this post is telling you all about it.

The reasons behind these changes are:
- It's possible for two copies of a card to have different abilities. This causes problems, the worst (extremely exotic) situation being, you play a card and don't actually know what it should do. The cards that do this are also confusing in general.
- There are cases where card interactions fail in an unintuitive way, due to it mattering if cards in a discard pile are covered up.
- Two minor rules clarify things a little and simplify texts a little, and are just coming along for the ride.

These changes will be implemented in the online program soon, and are effective now. Of course if you are playing irl you may not know about them, or may choose to do whatever you choose to do. These are changes for the better though, and I recommend using them.

Edit: I didn't think those words through and should clarify. New printings of the sets will have the new wordings, just as with Possession and Masquerade earlier. Online we will have the new wordings soon, because we can. But obviously anyone with a physical copy has whatever version they have; there's no obligation to play with the errata, and it's not great having to tell your friends, "here's some text to remember about what this card actually does." You can do it if you want but it's not essential for good times. I'm telling people about the changes now instead of whenever the sets get reprinted, because we can have the changes online in the meantime.

1. Errata

Eight cards are getting errata. Four are "shapeshifters" - they can change what they are, or what something else is. These create lots of rules questions and a few problems, and are switching to be like Captain and Necromancer - they'll play a card instead of becoming the card. Three are one-shots that would behave differently with the shapeshifters; they're changing to be more like they previously were, though this will change how they work in some other situations (e.g. with Necromancer and Captain). And then Procession is getting rid of the tracking problem introduced when the Throne/Duration rule changed a few years ago.

Someday those expansions will get printed again, and will have the new wordings, with FAQs to go with them. You can play with them right now though, through the magic of knowing about them.

New card texts:

Band of Misfits: Action, $5
Play an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.

Overlord: Action, 8D
Play an Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there.

Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

Lantern: Artifact
Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

Death Cart: Action - Looter, $4
You may trash this or an Action card from your hand, for +$5.
----------
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.

Pillage: Action - Attack, $5
Trash this. If you did, gain 2 Spoils, and each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals their hand and discards a card that you choose.

Embargo: Action, $2
+$2
Trash this. If you did, add an Embargo token to a Supply pile. (For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, they gain a Curse.)

Procession: Action, $4
You may play a non-Duration Action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play: currently, Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer, and Captain.

3. The new lose-track rule, now stop-moving, and getting things from your discard pile

Sometimes, the game wants you to not move a card further. I used to call this lose-track, because it existed due to situations where you'd really lose track of the card. But mostly you know right where the card is, so now I am calling it the stop-moving rule. And it's changing too, as follows.

The stop-moving rule: An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now. If a card isn't where the effect would expect it to be, or has moved away from there and then back, it can't move the card. Played cards expect to be in play; they can't move themselves if they aren't. Gained cards are expected to be where they were gained to, even if this isn't the discard pile. Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards; cards on top of a deck can't be moved once covered up.

Additionally, when you are told to get a card from your discard pile, you can look through it to get the card. That's just implicit. You don't have to just look at the top couple of cards, you can look through the whole discard pile.

The main change here is that previously you'd lose track of something if it were covered up in your discard pile, and now you don't. So for example if you Replace an Estate into Skulk, previously you would lose track of the Skulk when you gained a Gold and covered it up, but now you won't, you will put the Skulk onto your deck.

4. You can gain non-Supply cards when called out.

When a card tells you to gain a non-Supply card by name, you can gain it from its pile, even though it's not in the Supply.

This is just letting me drop "from its pile" from those cards, which wasn't a great way to make it clear that you really get to gain them.

5. Costs don't go below $0.

The cost in $ of a card can't go below $0. The cost in [potion] of a card can't go below 0 [potion]; the cost in [debt] of a card can't go below 0 [debt].

This is something that cards like Bridge have said; now it's just a rule, and covers the potion and debt cases since people ask. What does Vineyard cost with a Highway in play? Same as without it - zero coins, one potion, and zero debt.

*** Update! ***

Did I say that was the errata? There is more errata.

As a result of posting the errata, people have talked about it in forums and things, and the ShuffleiT version has gotten worked on. And this has resulted in two more desired changes. Well I'm counting it as two. And well the cards still won't be printed for months at least, but the online version is changing soon, so here they are.

The first is, when you are told to get a card from your discard pile, if it's not on top, or the card is chosen, you can look through your discard pile to get the card. You don't get to look through your discard pile to take the top card (again unless you're choosing a card from your discard pile). This change is because, well the idea to messing with when you could look in your discard pile was to fix some weird situations, not to add "look through your discard pile" to cards like Watchtower that never had it. In the rare situations where you gain a card and want to use Watchtower and the card is no longer on top, you get to look through your whole discard pile; when it's on top, just take the card like you used to.

The second is, further errata for four cards to prevent loops. You could do things like, play a Bridge and use Inheritance on Band of Misfits and then play Band of Misfits to play Estate to play Band of Misfits to play Estate and it's a loop. The fix here is a type on these cards, that they then don't work with. This affects very little other than getting rid of the loops; Courtier is better with these cards, and if you e.g. have an Adventures token on Band of Misfits and wanted to play Captain to play Band of Misfits (with a Bridge) to take advantage of that, well, now that doesn't work. This fix includes Overlord even though it wasn't part of the loops, just to be safe for the future and because it looks like the other cards and this seems less confusing. And hey it was already getting errata. To avoid "non-Victory non-Command" on Inheritance, I'm dropping non-Victory, which was just there for the old way Inheritance worked.

So:

Band of Misfits: Action - Command, $5
Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.

Overlord: Action - Command, 8D
Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there.

Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

Captain: Action - Duration - Command, $6
Now and at the start of your next turn: Play a non-Duration non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4, leaving it there.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 09:03:16 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2019, 04:09:25 pm »
0

oops, left off the +$2 on Embargo.
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Tables

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2019, 04:43:11 pm »
+4

oops, left off the +$2 on Embargo.


Don't worry, we've all forgotten about Embargo's +$2 at one point or another...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2019, 04:54:09 pm »
+1

Moving my comments from the rules thread.

Obviously you chose to not deal with errata on removed first edition cards... but what is your recommendation for Feast's wording? Should it be conditional on trashing (thus breaking Throne Room + Feast); or should it stay the same (thus making BoM + Feast more powerful with new BoM)?

New Procession seems weird. Aside from the fact that it's suddenly weaker, for someone who buys only base game Dominion, and then the Dark Ages expansion, they are going to have no clue with a "duration" is. I guess the FAQ in the new Dark Ages rulebook will explain this.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2019, 05:00:54 pm »
+3

Moving my comments from the rules thread.

Obviously you chose to not deal with errata on removed first edition cards... but what is your recommendation for Feast's wording? Should it be conditional on trashing (thus breaking Throne Room + Feast); or should it stay the same (thus making BoM + Feast more powerful with new BoM)?

New Procession seems weird. Aside from the fact that it's suddenly weaker, for someone who buys only base game Dominion, and then the Dark Ages expansion, they are going to have no clue with a "duration" is. I guess the FAQ in the new Dark Ages rulebook will explain this.
I didn't errata every one-shot to say "if you do." Death Cart was a bad case because you get +$5 (and it's in Dark Ages with BoM), and Embargo and Pillage because they attack in a way that could become oppressive.

If Feast were in the main set still I might have errata'd it too, just to answer the very common rules question right on the card. The game supports Feast, even if it isn't in print; no-one spoke up to say, you should change Feast too, and well it didn't seem like as much of a problem as the three I errata'd, so I didn't change it. You can now BoM as Feast to gain $5's.

When Dark Ages was first published, "non-Duration" would have been too weird. At this point there are Duration cards in Seaside, Adventures, Empires, Nocturne, and Renaissance, plus two promos. People know about Duration cards. And yes the FAQ can mention it, which is how we handle the Debt symbol on Possession.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2019, 05:06:51 pm »
+2

This also changes Throne Room + BoM rules, right? Previously, in the case of a non-one-shot; BoM would be locked in and have to be played as the same thing both times. But now you can play it as a different things each time.
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Chris is me

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2019, 05:07:40 pm »
+2

This is a neat change that simplifies a lot of things. I am especially glad I don't have to explain the whole thing about covering up cards in your discard pile or whatever. Yeesh.

One side note is that BoM / Overlord copying Encampment or Experiment now play a lot more nicely, and they also don't move themselves to the Tavern mat to be stuck there forever now.

Does throning a BoM now let you choose two different cards? That's super huge, and makes some infinite loops much easier (don't need a self-trashing card now)
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2019, 05:16:11 pm »
+5

I like all these changes, except that Procession no longer lets you Throne Duration cards. I understand why it's changed but that's a fairly notable nerf to the card.

If Procession had always worked this way I wouldn't have been upset, so sure, whatever, it's a brave new world.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2019, 05:18:08 pm »
0

I like all these changes, except that Procession no longer lets you Throne Duration cards. I understand why it's changed but that's a fairly notable nerf to the card.

If Procession had always worked this way I wouldn't have been upset, so sure, whatever, it's a brave new world.

I'm going to miss my cost Hireling that gained a King's Court when played.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2019, 05:24:07 pm »
+2

Since Estates are now actions in the supply it opens up the inifnite Captain combos:

1. Reduce the cost of Captain
2. Inherit Captain
3. Play Estate as Captain
4. Play Captain as Estate
5. Goto 3.

It's not too rare, you only need Inheritance, Captain, and one of { Bridge, Highway, Quarry, Tournament, Ferry, Bridge Troll, or Inventor }. Previously you need four cards as it required Ferry + another cost reducer.

You can also do it with BoM, but it's not as good.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:29:10 pm by pubby »
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2019, 07:50:47 pm »
0

ugh. I was afraid of this.

I really don't like the changes to BOM/Overlord/Inheritance and will not be using them IRL. I'm sure I'm going to forget and get confused when I play with those cards online as some points but oh well. Anything unclear or weird about the old rules came up pretty rarely (I don't think I ever had it come up in a game), so I wish they hadn't been changed.

While the new rules make interactions with certain cards (like one-shots) stronger, they kill the interaction with anything that has "While this is in play" (and reactions in the case of Inheritance) which is a lot more common than one-shot cards. I'm going to miss using those cards online with the original rules.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:54:36 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2019, 07:55:12 pm »
+1

Since Estates are now actions in the supply it opens up the inifnite Captain combos:

1. Reduce the cost of Captain
2. Inherit Captain
3. Play Estate as Captain
4. Play Captain as Estate
5. Goto 3.

It's not too rare, you only need Inheritance, Captain, and one of { Bridge, Highway, Quarry, Tournament, Ferry, Bridge Troll, or Inventor }. Previously you need four cards as it required Ferry + another cost reducer.

You can also do it with BoM, but it's not as good.

What was wrong with the old Inheritance anyway?
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2019, 08:40:33 pm »
0

ugh. I was afraid of this.

I really don't like the changes to BOM/Overlord/Inheritance and will not be using them IRL. I'm sure I'm going to forget and get confused when I play with those cards online as some points but oh well. Anything unclear or weird about the old rules came up pretty rarely (I don't think I ever had it come up in a game), so I wish they hadn't been changed.

While the new rules make interactions with certain cards (like one-shots) stronger, they kill the interaction with anything that has "While this is in play" (and reactions in the case of Inheritance) which is a lot more common than one-shot cards. I'm going to miss using those cards online with the original rules.

It kills some interactions, but creates new ones. Procession feels like it got hit the hardest though. Full on nerf of the card.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2019, 08:54:50 pm »
0

Can you explain how Tunnel works with the new rules? I remember someone saying that you can't use Tunnel's Reaction over and over because it gets covered up by the first Gold gained.

For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal.

Does this mean the interaction becomes a ridiculously abusive Grand Market Village? Does the same abusiveness apply to Death Cart?

For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects.

If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

This seems horrible to track. It also seems counterintuitive to the point of doing something that clearly isn't written or implied on the card. The new text just says play the (Duration) card but leave it in the supply. To me this implies that you simply don't get the benefit at the start of your next turn(s) that you normally would. I see nothing in the text that would make me think I have to leave BoM in play instead of discarding it as usual.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2019, 09:31:58 pm »
+2

Can you explain how Tunnel works with the new rules? I remember someone saying that you can't use Tunnel's Reaction over and over because it gets covered up by the first Gold gained.

To reveal Tunnel for Gold, you have to discard it. If you can only discard it once, you can only reveal it once.

Does this mean the interaction becomes a ridiculously abusive Grand Market Village? Does the same abusiveness apply to Death Cart?

To get $2 from Mining Village, you have to move it from play to trash. Band of Misfits doesn't move it to play, so that doesn't work. Same scenario with Death Cart.

This seems horrible to track. It also seems counterintuitive to the point of doing something that clearly isn't written or implied on the card. The new text just says play the (Duration) card but leave it in the supply. To me this implies that you simply don't get the benefit at the start of your next turn(s) that you normally would. I see nothing in the text that would make me think I have to leave BoM in play instead of discarding it as usual.

There's also nothing in the text for any Throne Room that implies that you keep Throne in play with a Duration it replayed. It's only in the rulebook. How has no one complained about this?
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2019, 10:04:49 pm »
0

Did you consider introducing a new term which means "Play x, leaving it there", or "Follow the instructions without moving the card"? For example, BoM could read "Activate an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this." Obviously you'd've had to have thought of it before Captain came out.

I'll admit that I was initially confused by Captain's wording, and thought that somehow "leaving it there" meant leaving it in play.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2019, 10:49:23 pm »
+3

This also changes Throne Room + BoM rules, right? Previously, in the case of a non-one-shot; BoM would be locked in and have to be played as the same thing both times. But now you can play it as a different things each time.
Yes now it can be a different thing each time.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2019, 10:53:26 pm »
0

ugh. I was afraid of this.

I really don't like the changes to BOM/Overlord/Inheritance and will not be using them IRL. I'm sure I'm going to forget and get confused when I play with those cards online as some points but oh well. Anything unclear or weird about the old rules came up pretty rarely (I don't think I ever had it come up in a game), so I wish they hadn't been changed.

While the new rules make interactions with certain cards (like one-shots) stronger, they kill the interaction with anything that has "While this is in play" (and reactions in the case of Inheritance) which is a lot more common than one-shot cards. I'm going to miss using those cards online with the original rules.
The exotic things came up very rarely; but the common things were common. The cards were just endlessly confusing, in addition to being a hole in the rules, a hole that let you actually play a card and not know what its abilities were.

The game still has every other fun interaction, and of course gained whatever new ones. In most situations Band of Misfits does what it used to.

I can't just ban a card that doesn't work within the rules; the game has to support the card somehow. I have supported these cards with errata to make them actually work.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2019, 10:58:40 pm »
+1

Can you explain how Tunnel works with the new rules? I remember someone saying that you can't use Tunnel's Reaction over and over because it gets covered up by the first Gold gained.
The difference now is that it doesn't matter if Tunnel gets covered up, it still works. You are allowed to look through your discard pile for it.

For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal.

Does this mean the interaction becomes a ridiculously abusive Grand Market Village? Does the same abusiveness apply to Death Cart?
No, neither one does anything like that. When Band of Misfits plays Mining Village, Mining Village can't trash itself from the supply, thus you don't trash Mining Village, thus you don't get the +$2.

All cards that trash themselves (or return themselves to their pile) have an implicit "from play"; they expect to be in play, which is where they'd normally be, and can't move themselves if they aren't.

For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects.

If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

This seems horrible to track. It also seems counterintuitive to the point of doing something that clearly isn't written or implied on the card. The new text just says play the (Duration) card but leave it in the supply. To me this implies that you simply don't get the benefit at the start of your next turn(s) that you normally would. I see nothing in the text that would make me think I have to leave BoM in play instead of discarding it as usual.
It seems fine to me, but I mean, good luck. I made some mistakes years ago making certain cards; I have fixed them as best I knew how, with advice from anyone else who cared to comment.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2019, 11:00:28 pm »
+1

Did you consider introducing a new term which means "Play x, leaving it there", or "Follow the instructions without moving the card"? For example, BoM could read "Activate an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this." Obviously you'd've had to have thought of it before Captain came out.

I'll admit that I was initially confused by Captain's wording, and thought that somehow "leaving it there" meant leaving it in play.
No, I wouldn't want a rulebook term that was used so rarely. If "leaving it there" is confusing, the move is to have a better wording that clears it up, but still try to really fit the entire needed explanation on the card itself.
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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2019, 11:02:18 pm »
+2

What was wrong with the old Inheritance anyway?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18598.0

It turns out that it's bad to let different copies of a card have different abilities at the same time (which Band of Misfits and Overlord also did). It means you can arrange to play a card and not know its abilities.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2019, 11:06:58 pm »
0

Was an errata that changed when you trash the card from Procession considered? (Eg have it be trashed during clean up similar to Improve)?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2019, 11:10:30 pm »
+2

Was an errata that changed when you trash the card from Procession considered? (Eg have it be trashed during clean up similar to Improve)?
Yes it was brought up, but that's a significant change too; it stops you from gaining a card with Procession and playing it the same turn. The people in the conversation cared more about that.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2019, 11:18:15 pm »
0

Can you explain how Tunnel works with the new rules? I remember someone saying that you can't use Tunnel's Reaction over and over because it gets covered up by the first Gold gained.

To reveal Tunnel for Gold, you have to discard it. If you can only discard it once, you can only reveal it once.

But then it gets covered up by a Gold, which, according to the new rules, lets you reveal it again.

This seems horrible to track. It also seems counterintuitive to the point of doing something that clearly isn't written or implied on the card. The new text just says play the (Duration) card but leave it in the supply. To me this implies that you simply don't get the benefit at the start of your next turn(s) that you normally would. I see nothing in the text that would make me think I have to leave BoM in play instead of discarding it as usual.

There's also nothing in the text for any Throne Room that implies that you keep Throne in play with a Duration it replayed. It's only in the rulebook. How has no one complained about this?
[/quote]

The difference there is that the Duration card itself remains in play. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like a card played but left in the supply shouldn't have any lingering effects.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 11:29:53 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2019, 11:49:10 pm »
+2

But then it gets covered up by a Gold, which, according to the new rules, lets you reveal it again.
I see what you're saying.

You only get to reveal the Tunnel once. I'm not worried about people misplaying that, but it's something for the Tunnel FAQ.

The difference there is that the Duration card itself remains in play. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like a card played but left in the supply shouldn't have any lingering effects.
Initially BoM/Overlord/Inheritance just weren't going to work on durations. It's sad for Inheritance, because maybe you deal out 10 Adventures cards to play with, or 5 and 5 of something else; there are not many good options for Inheritance left at that point. But, it seemed necessary. Then I got around it.

The root problem, under these other things, is that cards can have effects when not in play. We use the card in play to track the effect, and if it's not in play we aren't tracking the effect. It should be that the next-turn part is below a dividing line - as Hans im Gluck did theirs - and doesn't work if the card isn't in play. And then Throne would be sad with them, and you can't do Band of Misfits anything like that, and so on. [Another direction is to provide other components to track the effects.]

If I were making the game today, I would fix that up. I am not though, I am dealing with a published game with lots of cards out there. So the fix is as small as possible.
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