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ClouduHieh

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What are your most hated official cards?
« on: January 27, 2019, 10:05:37 pm »
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Cards I hate to play with. I love attack cards so there arenít many on my list. Anyway hereís mine.

(Adventures) Raze-
(Cornucopia) Remake-
(Prosperity) Mint-
(Prosperity) Venture-
(Prosperity) Forge-
(Prosperity) Trade Route-
(Seaside) Navigator-
(Seaside) Explorer-
(Intrigue) Trading post-
(Dark Ages) Pillage-

Those are my ten most hated  official cards to play with. There were few others that came close to my top ten, mostly prosperity cards. Iím excluding official cards that were removed from dominion like great hall. And Iím excluding the base game. And the events and ect.

So what are your top 10 most hated official cards. You donít have to exclude any of the ones I did.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 11:14:38 pm »
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This should be somewhere else. Regardless, my bottom 10 right now are:

1. Possession
2. Urchin
3. Rebuild
4. Familiar
5. Sauna/Avanto
6. Knights
7. Governor
8. Margrave
9. Militia
10. Masquerade
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 11:26:35 pm »
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1= most hated
1- Tournament
2- Possession
3- Rebuild
4- King's Court
5- Wild Hunt
6- Governor
7- Cultist
8- Page line
9- Lurker
10- Knights

Jimmmmm

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2019, 11:55:23 pm »
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Cards I hate to play with. I love attack cards so there arenít many on my list. Anyway hereís mine.

(Adventures) Raze-
(Cornucopia) Remake-
(Prosperity) Mint-
(Prosperity) Venture-
(Prosperity) Forge-
(Prosperity) Trade Route-
(Seaside) Navigator-
(Seaside) Explorer-
(Intrigue) Trading post-
(Dark Ages) Pillage-

What do you have against trashing?
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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 12:26:42 am »
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Raze- I only buy if there is no other card to trash cards, unless of course if there is a decent copper strategy and no curses involved. But the whole action of trashing a card that costs 2 like estate seems pointless in the beginning of the game. Trash an estate look at the top to Cards discard 1 then take the other. It just seems pointless at the beginning. Playing it after you have some good cards seems harder to do less likely to get that estate. There is definitely some much better cards that cost 2 out there.

Remake- again there are definitely better ways to trash cards out there. Maybe if It didnít force you to trash to from your hand it would be better. Cause sometimes it works to trash 2 and other times not so much. And once again itís really only good for estates unless you have a few silvers and golds and you want to get rid of 2 coppers at a time.

Mint- Iím sure this is on most of your hated lists. This is probably my number 1 most hated card. Buy in the first 2 turns and youíll probably lose the game. And if you buy it a few turns later youíll probably have a silver or 2 in hand is it worth losing those treasures. No! Youíll probably still lose. Iíve never been able to mint a gold anyway, Iíve only been able to do it with silvers a few times. And it seems even stupider to buy more than one mint. Maybe it would be better if it costed 3 or 4. Or maybe it would be better if you could mint that copy to your hand.

Venture- seems like a weaker version of adventurer, except you donít waste an action playing it. But still seems pointless unless you donít have any coppers in your deck. At least Ill gotten gains gives out curses when you buy it. This is probably my most hated treasure. Iím mean they removed adventurer for a reason.

Forge- again if there other ways to trash cards, why would you waste 7 treasure to buy this. Your not likely to have many cards that you need to trash in your hand. At least with expand you can trash your 5 costing cards and golds for provinces. Doesnít seem like you could do that with forge very often unless you lost more than few good cards in the process for one province.

Trade route- itís bad enough prosperity has no 2$ costing cards, but the $3 are at best so-so. In the beginning of the game if you want to buy other cards besides silvers, this Is definitely not on my list. Itís only worth it if all the victories have bought once. If it wasnít for the fact that this works with its own mat, there would be more that would hate this card. But it seems to me in most games this is a woodcutter that forces you to trash a card from your hand. Once again woodcutter was removed. If you had a hand with good cards would you trash one of them, even if it was a silver for + $2 and buy? It would depend on if I wanted to buy 2 decent cards and this was the only action that gave +buys.

Navigator- discard all or put back all. I donít like that. There are other cards that do this better. Cartographer probably one of the best. Maybe at the end of the game when you have more victory cards navigator might be more worth playing.

Explorer- getting a silver every time you play it unless you have a province in your hand. True you get to put it into your hand when you gain it. By the time you start buying provinces you probably have quite a few silvers, and a few golds anyways. But still there a lot better 5 costing cards out there. I think mostly I donít like this is itís kinda of a boring action.

Trading post- Trash to coppers from your hand to gain a silver to your hand. Yeah that would be cool, but the fact it costs $5 seems a bit much for that effect. Unless you got this in the first 2 turns of the game. Then it would be cooler. Otherwise it just seem like a good buy. And you certainly would want to waste your time buying lots of these.

Pillage- Probably the only attack I hate, mostly cause you lose it after you play it. Sure embargo is trashed too, but it costs only $2 plus itís not an official attack, and has lasting effects for the rest of the game. Plus it would be worth playing to of these in turn. And the benefit is so-so. Itís only redeeming quality is you get to choose what they discard, that can be fun but only sometimes. Margrave is more effective attack than this.





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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 12:30:21 am »
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I donít have much against trashing, it depends on the benefit. Some cards that trash have really cool benefits. I mostly like the option to trash over being forced to trash. Like with chapel you could use to trash one card. And of course if you wanted to you could trash a few more.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 12:46:53 am »
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Now with your lists in mind are there any cards, that would seem better if they had an added benefit or a different benefit, or costed less or more, or if there was a slight change to the function of the card. That would make it more enjoyable or less complex. Like libraryadventurer I noticed tournament at the top of your list is it because you donít like the prizes, or is there another reason?

Iím trying to see if a card or 2 appears on more than one list. And then maybe creating a fan based tweaked version of an official card, without making it seem exactly like another official card word for word. And without changing the nature of the card. And still making it fun to play with. And maybe even adding another nature.

Cause when creating cards or just playing dominion, I want to enjoy the function of the card. The ten on my list I donít enjoy the function of. And if there are others who have a same exact card they hate, Iíd have fun creating a tweaked version of it.

Of course some are hated because there nasty to others, thatís why Iím not looking to change the nature of card. Same goes for cards that are hated because they add to much length to the game, or too much complexity. So if you guys want to add the reason why you hate them, unless you think the reason is obvious. (Like attack cards) or example: the reason why I hate pillage isnít because itís an attack card, which I feel isnít obvious.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 12:57:38 am by ClouduHieh »
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Asper

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 02:51:38 am »
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My Flop 10 ("best" to worst):
  • Cultist (too good, even without the gratuitous on-trash)
  • Crown (unneeded rule convention breach)
  • Storyteller (unneeded rule convention breach)
  • Caravan Guard (unneeded rule convention breach for a boring effect)
  • Necromancer (complicated)
  • Fool (slow, random and complicated)
  • Capitalism (unneeded rule convention breach with partially hightly confusing rules)
  • Farmer's Market (random)
  • Rebuild (monolithic)
  • Page (monolithic and random)

ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 02:34:38 pm »
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Rebuild has already been in a few lists. Is that because itís too powerful? Itís always been a cool card for me, but I can see how if someone buys rebuild everyone else must buy it as well. Hopefully youíll like this tweaked version. At least better than the official version.




If colony is in the game it makes it harder to get with rebuild. And maybe gives out more hope to the players who trying to buy colonies instead of the rebuild strategy.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 02:37:19 pm by ClouduHieh »
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GendoIkari

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 02:41:57 pm »
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Almost all of your reasons seem to be because you perceive the card as weak. Are you actually meaning to list what you see as the 10 worst/weakest cards? Or does it just line up really well that the cards you personally hate to play with are also the ones that you see as the weakest?
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Marcory

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2019, 05:31:25 pm »
+2


Raze- I only buy if there is no other card to trash cards, unless of course if there is a decent copper strategy and no curses involved. But the whole action of trashing a card that costs 2 like estate seems pointless in the beginning of the game. Trash an estate look at the top to Cards discard 1 then take the other. It just seems pointless at the beginning. Playing it after you have some good cards seems harder to do less likely to get that estate. There is definitely some much better cards that cost 2 out there.

Remake- again there are definitely better ways to trash cards out there. Maybe if It didnít force you to trash to from your hand it would be better. Cause sometimes it works to trash 2 and other times not so much. And once again itís really only good for estates unless you have a few silvers and golds and you want to get rid of 2 coppers at a time.

Mint- Iím sure this is on most of your hated lists. This is probably my number 1 most hated card. Buy in the first 2 turns and youíll probably lose the game. And if you buy it a few turns later youíll probably have a silver or 2 in hand is it worth losing those treasures. No! Youíll probably still lose. Iíve never been able to mint a gold anyway, Iíve only been able to do it with silvers a few times. And it seems even stupider to buy more than one mint. Maybe it would be better if it costed 3 or 4. Or maybe it would be better if you could mint that copy to your hand.

Venture- seems like a weaker version of adventurer, except you donít waste an action playing it. But still seems pointless unless you donít have any coppers in your deck. At least Ill gotten gains gives out curses when you buy it. This is probably my most hated treasure. Iím mean they removed adventurer for a reason.

Forge- again if there other ways to trash cards, why would you waste 7 treasure to buy this. Your not likely to have many cards that you need to trash in your hand. At least with expand you can trash your 5 costing cards and golds for provinces. Doesnít seem like you could do that with forge very often unless you lost more than few good cards in the process for one province.

Trade route- itís bad enough prosperity has no 2$ costing cards, but the $3 are at best so-so. In the beginning of the game if you want to buy other cards besides silvers, this Is definitely not on my list. Itís only worth it if all the victories have bought once. If it wasnít for the fact that this works with its own mat, there would be more that would hate this card. But it seems to me in most games this is a woodcutter that forces you to trash a card from your hand. Once again woodcutter was removed. If you had a hand with good cards would you trash one of them, even if it was a silver for + $2 and buy? It would depend on if I wanted to buy 2 decent cards and this was the only action that gave +buys.

Navigator- discard all or put back all. I donít like that. There are other cards that do this better. Cartographer probably one of the best. Maybe at the end of the game when you have more victory cards navigator might be more worth playing.

Explorer- getting a silver every time you play it unless you have a province in your hand. True you get to put it into your hand when you gain it. By the time you start buying provinces you probably have quite a few silvers, and a few golds anyways. But still there a lot better 5 costing cards out there. I think mostly I donít like this is itís kinda of a boring action.

Trading post- Trash to coppers from your hand to gain a silver to your hand. Yeah that would be cool, but the fact it costs $5 seems a bit much for that effect. Unless you got this in the first 2 turns of the game. Then it would be cooler. Otherwise it just seem like a good buy. And you certainly would want to waste your time buying lots of these.

Pillage- Probably the only attack I hate, mostly cause you lose it after you play it. Sure embargo is trashed too, but it costs only $2 plus itís not an official attack, and has lasting effects for the rest of the game. Plus it would be worth playing to of these in turn. And the benefit is so-so. Itís only redeeming quality is you get to choose what they discard, that can be fun but only sometimes. Margrave is more effective attack than this.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course , but I think you're missing the point of some of these cards.

Raze: the value of Raze is that it is non-terminal and that it can trash itself when you're done with it. Other cheap trashers  (think Loan, Doctor, Transmute, etc) can clog up your deck late in the game. But not Raze. Raze isn't a very fast trasher, so it's often skippable, but it's a decent $2 card.

Remake is a fast trasher that also boosts your economy by turning your estates into silvers. With other fast trashers like Steward and Ambassador,  you have to spend a few turns buying Silver before you trash all your coppers. With Remake, you don't.

You mostly but Mint in order to use its trashing ability. Its gaining ability is Ok, but there are other gold gainers that are more helpful.

Venture is one of the better "silver with a bonus" cards. Once your coppers are gone, Venture is a $5 Gold, and it really shines when it hits another Venture or another valuable Kingdom Treasure. There are better $5 treasures out there, but there are plenty of worse ones as well.

Forge is one of a handful of cards in all of Dominion that can trash more than 2 cards at once. It can significantly improve your deck even if you only ever play it once. The ability to turn a $5 and a Silver into a Province is nice, but that's not why you normally but Forge.

Trade route is a terrible early game trasher, but it's one of a small set of Dominion cards that get stronger as the game progresses. It's not a world beater, but it can be really good in games with alt-VP.

Navigator is weak but it  does have its uses.It mainly lets you avoid an upcoming weak hand.

You're correct about Explorer.

Trading post trasher two cards and gives you Silvers like Remake, but also gives you money when you play it. It's a very respectable trasher.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2019, 07:53:52 pm »
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Oh, wow, I totally forgot about Page and Fool. My list needs an update.

1. Possession
2. Urchin
3. Rebuild
4. Familiar
5. Sauna/Avanto
6. Page
7. Fool
8. Knights
9. Masquerade
10. Governor

Rebuild has already been in a few lists. Is that because itís too powerful? Itís always been a cool card for me, but I can see how if someone buys rebuild everyone else must buy it as well.

Rebuild is widely hated specifically because of its unique monolithicity. Not only does it make winning too easy, but it also has so few interactions with other cards. Rebuild doesn't want you to draw your deck, and it doesn't want you to trash much either. It's the ultimate "buy this and nothing else" card.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 08:00:14 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2019, 08:11:05 pm »
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Well I sopose I hate them because they seem weak to me, but there are other weaker cards that I like a lot. Page is weak. But playing it once and eventually becoming a champion is awesome! Poor house is hard to play with. But the reason why itís not in my top ten is itís the only official card thatís in the supply that costs $1 if there were other official cards costing $1 it would definitely be in my most hated 10, but the fact that itís one of a kind in that sense is awesome. Rats is a double edge sword in most games, if your not careful youíll just have rats in your deck. Itís in my top 50 favorite cards. Itís also one my favorite trashers! So there are lots of trashers I like. Stonemason is $2 costing trasher and Iíve had some fun games gaining some good cards with it.

When it comes down to it I want to play cards that are to play with. And the ten that are in my list are boring to play with for me anyway. And thatís why I hate, not because there weak, not because they trash cards, not because there nasty (I love the nasty ones the most even if Iím at the receiving end), but because there yawn! Boring!
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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 08:22:17 pm »
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So far rebuild, fool, and page seem to be the most hated.

So what do you guys hate about these 3? Are your reasons the same? Libraryadventurer seems to hate page and the upgrades for it as well as tournament and lurker is that because you the complexity, variety and a longer game? Because if that was the case wouldnít black market be at the top of your list? And what about the peasant becoming a teacher?

I can understand with the fool, with the hot potato lost in the woods. And no one seems to have anything from renaissance yet, probably because it hasnít been played enough yet. Iíve only played it 3 times myself. Thereís still a handful of cards I havenít played with yet. And Iíve barely scratched the surface with the projects.

Also what do you think of the rebuild tweak?
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crj

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2019, 10:01:16 pm »
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With the exception of the usual suspects like Possession, Fool is easily the card I dislike most.

Diplomat, Mill and Replace irritate me. They seem fussy, uninteresting and complicated - totally inappropriate for the first expansion. I struggle even to remember what they do. I preferred Secret Chamber as a Reaction, and Great Hall as a cheap Action-Victory.

Merchant Ship keeps looking like it might be great, then failing to shine. It's hard to love a card that's a recurring disappointment.

Oracle is a complete pain in the neck to play: every switch from one player making the decisions to another slows the game down, and Oracle has lots, without having enough fun to compensate.

The Gathering cards (Farmer's Market, Temple, Wild Hunt) feel like they exacerbate a bunch of negative interactions between players without bringing enough benefit to justify that.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2019, 10:50:11 pm »
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Am I the only person who actually likes Fool? It's exciting, like a box of chocolates.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2019, 11:09:31 pm »
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Two main reasons I hate Page:
1. The infinite actions thing of Champion makes things too trivial.
2. Treasure Hunter clogs your deck with Silvers, and the feedback loop between you and your opponent playing them back-to-back can make you gain a ridiculous number of them.

I hate Fool because the on-play is terrible, but you have to get it if you don't want your opponent to have a monopoly on Lost in the Woods. The fact that you can play it once, then trash it and still have Lost in the Woods for the whole rest of the game is just bad design.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2019, 11:12:08 pm »
+1

So far rebuild, fool, and page seem to be the most hated.

So what do you guys hate about these 3? Are your reasons the same? LibraryAdventurer seems to hate page and the upgrades for it as well as tournament and lurker is that because you the complexity, variety and a longer game? Because if that was the case wouldnít black market be at the top of your list? And what about the peasant becoming a teacher?

Also what do you think of the rebuild tweak?
- I think most people who hate Page agree about why we hate it: Warrior is too swingy (especially when it trashes a traveler) and Champion is broken. (The Peasant line is way more fun, IMO.) [EDIT: after reading C.Chuckle's post, it appears I was wrong about people agreeing about why we hate Page. But I'm not crazy about Treasure Hunter either.]
- Rebuild is a one-card strategy which is both strong and boring.
- I hate Tournament because the prizes are broken. They are broken largely because only one person can get each prize. Black Market happens to be one of my favorite cards. It's just a matter of what is fun to me. I think Black Market is fun and Tournament isn't.
- I think I'm in a minority about Lurker, but again, it just isn't fun to me.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 11:14:24 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Asper

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2019, 02:24:21 am »
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I forgot about Diplomat. It is a very poor replacement for Secret Chamber, but I don't think it would have made my list either way.

Also, it's not true that nobody had something from Renaissance. I think Capitalism is the spoiled apple of the otherwise great batch.

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2019, 03:54:33 am »
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Diplomat is one of my favourites as a hand-management challenge in the line of Cursed Village or Menagerie, with an enabling reaction part.

I think I hate Scrying Pool most as it leads to long turns with dragging interactions.
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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2019, 04:33:19 am »
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Fool is okay, but definitely the worst of the cards that work with boons, With Druid being next in line.

Yeah I definitely liked secret chamber more than diplomat. It was hard sometimes to get +2 Actions, and letís face it was better not to reveal it to torturer. The reaction was only really useful to block minion.

If it wasnít for followers, tournament would not be in my top 50 favorites. Cause the rest of the prizes arenít as good in my opinion and diadem is a dud, Iíd go for a duchy over a diadem any day. Itís kinda like a playing the roller coaster game in final fantasy 7 and losing and receiving a tissue for losing.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2019, 04:36:19 am »
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Scrying pool is one thing, but golem can be even longer donít you think especially if you have more than one golem. And it forces you to play those actions whatever they may be.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 04:44:28 am »
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So what if champion just defended you against attack cards and didnít give you endless actions would you like it more?

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ClouduHieh

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 04:58:16 am »
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Capitalism I missed that. I havenít played with that one yet. So I wouldnít know. The biggest beef I have with renaissance is just 2 Attacks. (Itís a pleasant, pleasant world) since cruel would be out of term. I think so far border guard is on the bottom for me for renaissance. The reveal and then discard is so-so, but I have mixed feelings with the horn and the lantern, do I want to discard an additional card, sometimes yes sometimes no. Do I want to put it on top of my deck for my next turn ahh not sure. Mixed feelings. And so far everyone else including online have skipped buying that card, except of course when it first was available online. I donít think Iíve ever had anyone take the horn or the lantern from me, doesnít seem like a good thing for some reason.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 05:00:00 am by ClouduHieh »
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Asper

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Re: What are your most hated official cards?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2019, 07:41:07 am »
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So what if champion just defended you against attack cards and didnít give you endless actions would you like it more?

I think what most people don't like about Page is the fact that Champion is so extremely good, but at the same time it's mostly random whether you will make it past Warrior, as Warriors trash Warriors and Treasure Hunters.

However, even without Champion, Warrior would still be absurdly annoying to play against, as you can load up on Pages to reveal massive numbers of cards to trash each turn, effectively stopping your opponent dead. So no, making Champion awful wouldn't fix Page.
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