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Author Topic: Patron and "reveal"  (Read 1125 times)

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Jeebus

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Patron and "reveal"
« on: December 20, 2018, 05:58:16 pm »
+2

I found a discussion about this in the fan cards forum (diverting from the original thread topic). But since it has nothing to do with fan cards, I decided to reply in a new thread.

The card doesn't actually even need "using the word 'reveal.'"  Early versions didn't have it -- it was just added for clarity.

I think the issue is that people say and think things like "the top card of your discard pile is always revealed". Heck, it might even say that in the rulebook somewhere.

GendoIkari is right. The Dominion rulebook (2nd ed.) says that you reveal the top card of your discard pile:
"If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."

So Patron absolutely needs to clarify what it means that it gets revealed.

Actually, reading Patron literally might make you think that Villain causes you to reveal Patron if you discard it. Villain does use the word "reveal", and does cause you to discard the Patron - and thereby revealing it, following the rulebook as quoted above.

Good thing that the Patron explanation in the Renaissance rulebook uses Villain as an example.

Holunder9

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2018, 06:40:12 pm »
+1

Nice catch. It neatly illustrates that Patron is a bad design (the stuff above the line is fine) as reveal is anything but a clear keyword, lots of stuff gets revealed all the time.
I consider it to be by far the most messy and complicated card of the set. Even after you got the difference between reveal and "reveal" you have to re-read the text of all other Kingdom cards.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2018, 07:53:32 pm »
+1

Patron specifically says the word reveal needs to be used.
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Donald X.

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2018, 09:38:49 pm »
+9

The playtesters who didn't like that ability on Patron also didn't like Capitalism. I made them both anyway and no amount of badly designed moms will make me regret it.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2018, 09:52:34 pm »
+3

The card is not hard to understand, and the card is fun, therefore it's not bad card design.

Jeebus

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2018, 12:07:01 am »
+1

Patron specifically says the word reveal needs to be used.

Yes...? I wrote that it needed to say that.

Jeebus

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2018, 12:11:43 am »
0

The card is not hard to understand, and the card is fun, therefore it's not bad card design.

I'm not saying it's bad design or not fun. But I am saying that it's one of the cards that are not totally clear from the card text alone. Make of that what you will.

Holunder9

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2018, 08:11:05 am »
+2

One just has to read the thread that Jeebus linked to realize that among a bunch of Dominion nerds only few could figure out what reveal includes precisely. Now imagine you are an average family gamer who plays the game only a few times a year.

The difference between the top card of your deck always being revealed and "reveal" in the sense of something being explicitly written on a card is extremely counterintuitive.
It is as if the rules said that all horizontal stuff is considered to be cards but not "cards" in the sence of gaining, cost reduction and so on. The actual rules, saying that Events are not cards but stuff that you can buy, are much better.
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Awaclus

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2018, 08:26:22 am »
+1

Now imagine you are an average family gamer who plays the game only a few times a year.

Why do I even have expansions for a game I play only a few times a year?
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Holunder9

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2018, 08:45:16 am »
+3

Now imagine you are an average family gamer who plays the game only a few times a year.

Why do I even have expansions for a game I play only a few times a year?
Because somebody likes choice, got it as a present or whatever. Motivations to get expansions are numerous. I have expansions for games I only play once or twice a year and I am an avid gamer so it is not hard to imagine that many family gamers play less frequently.
For example my little cousin has several Dominion expansions and I don't think that he plays will all of them all the time and I certainly don't think that he would get immediately get the difference between reveal and "reveal", assuming that reveal has been consistently translated into German.
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Polk5440

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2018, 01:00:02 pm »
0

Now imagine you are an average family gamer who plays the game only a few times a year.

Why do I even have expansions for a game I play only a few times a year?

Why do I even have expansions to games I still have in shrink wrap? -- Said someone who is definitely not me.....
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Donald X.

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2018, 04:27:46 pm »
+4

One just has to read the thread that Jeebus linked to realize that among a bunch of Dominion nerds only few could figure out what reveal includes precisely. Now imagine you are an average family gamer who plays the game only a few times a year.
The average family gamer is in great shape with Patron. The Dominion nerds create questions that family gamers never think of. Family gamers are not checking the rulebook looking for ways to be confused.

I didn't just think, "whatever I put on the card will be fine." A parade of people faced Patron and I said, "what does this do," and they got it right.

The difference between the top card of your deck always being revealed and "reveal" in the sense of something being explicitly written on a card is extremely counterintuitive.
You've lost me.

It is as if the rules said that all horizontal stuff is considered to be cards but not "cards" in the sence of gaining, cost reduction and so on. The actual rules, saying that Events are not cards but stuff that you can buy, are much better.
The rule that Events aren't cards is confusing and not so good for family gamers.
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Holunder9

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2018, 05:47:07 pm »
0

Quote
The difference between the top card of your deck always being revealed and "reveal" in the sense of something being explicitly written on a card is extremely counterintuitive.
You've lost me.
You might want to read the first post of this thread.
There is "reveal" as a keyword, what Patron's wording hints at.
There is other stuff revealed, like the top card of your discard pile.

Even though Patron clearly refers to the former you can nonetheless confuse it with the latter. If I ever play with the card I am 100% certain that even the hardcore gamers at the table will ask me what this supposed to mean, whether stuff in the discard pile or the trash is revealed and so on.


The average family gamer is in great shape with Patron. The Dominion nerds create questions that family gamers never think of. Family gamers are not checking the rulebook looking for ways to be confused.
A pretty weird accusation given that folks like me did not know what reveal means precisely, what is actually considered to be revealed, before Patron came along. So I re-read the rules not to become even more confused about something which I did not get but to realize that reveal is actually a keyword (that has been hitherto been mostly irrelevant). But I read over that part which Jeebus pointed out here and which reveals, pardon the pun, the difference between "reveal" and reveal.

I understand that you think that your baby is perfect but I think that something like this is a fairly natural and inevitable issue that arises when you do many expansions and use a keyword for a new card which has so far never been rigorously used (again, the difference between "reveal" and reveal).
Also, just because your playtesting group got the card immediately does not imply that other playing groups will do so as well. There is always groupthink and group bias and Jeebus pointed out that a playtester was actually wrong about Patron supposedly not requiring the using the word "reveal" phrase.
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arishipshape

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2018, 09:20:03 pm »
+3

Quote
The difference between the top card of your deck always being revealed and "reveal" in the sense of something being explicitly written on a card is extremely counterintuitive.
You've lost me.
You might want to read the first post of this thread.
There is "reveal" as a keyword, what Patron's wording hints at.
There is other stuff revealed, like the top card of your discard pile.

Even though Patron clearly refers to the former you can nonetheless confuse it with the latter. If I ever play with the card I am 100% certain that even the hardcore gamers at the table will ask me what this supposed to mean, whether stuff in the discard pile or the trash is revealed and so on.


The average family gamer is in great shape with Patron. The Dominion nerds create questions that family gamers never think of. Family gamers are not checking the rulebook looking for ways to be confused.
A pretty weird accusation given that folks like me did not know what reveal means precisely, what is actually considered to be revealed, before Patron came along. So I re-read the rules not to become even more confused about something which I did not get but to realize that reveal is actually a keyword (that has been hitherto been mostly irrelevant). But I read over that part which Jeebus pointed out here and which reveals, pardon the pun, the difference between "reveal" and reveal.

I understand that you think that your baby is perfect but I think that something like this is a fairly natural and inevitable issue that arises when you do many expansions and use a keyword for a new card which has so far never been rigorously used (again, the difference between "reveal" and reveal).
Also, just because your playtesting group got the card immediately does not imply that other playing groups will do so as well. There is always groupthink and group bias and Jeebus pointed out that a playtester was actually wrong about Patron supposedly not requiring the using the word "reveal" phrase.
My 7 year old brother instantly understood patron. As did I, and every other dominion player I know. This baby is perfect!
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Donald X.

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2018, 12:26:34 am »
+1

You might want to read the first post of this thread.
Your guess that I didn't is poor. I stopped there on your post though.
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Holunder9

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2018, 05:12:10 am »
0

You might want to read the first post of this thread.
Your guess that I didn't is poor. I stopped there on your post though.
Fine with me if you are set on denying the difference between reveal and "reveal" that Jeebus pointed out.
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Donald X.

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2018, 05:41:03 pm »
+2

You might want to read the first post of this thread.
Your guess that I didn't is poor. I stopped there on your post though.
Fine with me if you are set on denying the difference between reveal and "reveal" that Jeebus pointed out.
It's okay with me if you think you can infer things from my lack of interest in debating with a troll who's been banned over and over.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2018, 06:00:11 am »
0

Is there a list of cards with 'reveal' on the wiki yet?
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Matt_Arnold

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2018, 11:38:52 am »
+8

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greybirdofprey

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 08:09:19 am »
+1

Is there a list of cards with 'reveal' on the wiki yet?

There is now! http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Reveal

Nice. This will probably be useful for non-English versions.
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Jeebus

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 05:09:08 pm »
0

Is there a list of cards with 'reveal' on the wiki yet?

There is now! http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Reveal

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 05:10:31 pm by Jeebus »
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ackmondual

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Re: Patron and "reveal"
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2018, 02:00:31 am »
0

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