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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest Thread  (Read 309371 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2018, 08:29:25 am »
0

Challenge #2: Simple and Elegant Submission



Hopefully I'm assuming correctly that "+1 Card" etcetera is considered one word. :)
I like it a lot but think that it is a tiny bit too good (of course it cannot cost $7 like the DoublePeddler tested during Prosperity, it is a bit weaker so $6 is the right price)
You can end up with extra Actions in a draw engine but I don't think that it is hard to pull off playing this while only having 1 Action.
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Umadin

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2018, 01:35:58 pm »
+2



I like this, and although actions to coffers and coin to villagers is novel I think coin to coffers feels cleaner in concept to me but to each their own!  Great card
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Umadin

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2018, 02:11:45 pm »
0

Challenge #2: Simple and Elegant Submission



Hopefully I'm assuming correctly that "+1 Card" etcetera is considered one word. :)
I like it a lot but think that it is a tiny bit too good (of course it cannot cost $7 like the DoublePeddler tested during Prosperity, it is a bit weaker so $6 is the right price)
You can end up with extra Actions in a draw engine but I don't think that it is hard to pull off playing this while only having 1 Action.

I think its priced fine if its not as good as bank, kings court, expand, forge, its less then 7.  This doesnít seem overpriced in the least, Iíd even say its a low valued 6 / high value 5. Compare to mill, bazaar, treasury, hughway, bazaar.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 02:28:42 pm by Umadin »
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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2018, 03:09:28 pm »
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As I already mentioned, the cost is right. The problem is that I fear, perhaps wrongly, that it is too easy to consistenly make Pioneer work. Compare this to the the only two official DoublePeddler versions, Conspirator and Grand Market:
Conspirator always implies the risk of being a terminal Silver, the downside is that you need to set up an engine before you can make Conspirator work as payload.
Grand Market is even harder, it has an additional extra Buy but you need to do a lot before you can gain it.

Pioneer on the other hand is a card that you can simply buy when you first hit $6 and unless you already have a lot of Villages in your deck chances are high that it will work without any further ado. You can e.g. play BM and use this instead of Gold with zero risk of failing.
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2018, 03:35:11 pm »
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As I already mentioned, the cost is right. The problem is that I fear, perhaps wrongly, that it is too easy to consistenly make Pioneer work. Compare this to the the only two official DoublePeddler versions, Conspirator and Grand Market:
Conspirator always implies the risk of being a terminal Silver, the downside is that you need to set up an engine before you can make Conspirator work as payload.
Grand Market is even harder, it has an additional extra Buy but you need to do a lot before you can gain it.

Pioneer on the other hand is a card that you can simply buy when you first hit $6 and unless you already have a lot of Villages in your deck chances are high that it will work without any further ado. You can e.g. play BM and use this instead of Gold with zero risk of failing.

I have the same concerns. I think this works too well in too many situations. The only downside is this clashes with villages (or spliters), but as most of those are cantrips, the risk here is often nominal. If every Pioneer played as "+1 Card, +1 Action, +$2" then cost $6 is a steal, but any amount of "+1 Card" plays are going to drop it's overall value. I just have no idea at what point this has an overall value of cost $5, $4, etcetera.

A lot of unanswered questions with this one! I would like to try and tweak it a bit, but outside the realm of this 12-word restricted competition. 

A possible change is to make it less likely to hit by making it cost $5 and a conditional Gold. Probably a bit more boring, but this way you have to rely more on Villages for draw (if you have them).

« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 03:46:24 pm by Kudasai »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2018, 05:53:09 pm »
+1

Royalties, 5$, Treasure
$2
+1 Villager
I think this one's my favorite. Both simple and interesting which was kind of the goal of this mini-contest. It's one that could easily turn out to be in Renaissance.

The power of Backstreet and Pioneer vary greatly depending on how many +actions are in the kingdom, but Pioneer seems a lot more controllable. I don't really like the idea of converting actions to coins anyway (which both of those do, in effect). There's a reason diadem didn't work as a kingdom card.
Also, Worker's Village.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 05:58:22 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2018, 12:38:35 am »
0

Challenge #2 - Simple and Elegant Submission

This was going to be my original submission and after some thought I'm going to go back to this. Sorry for the switch! I'm going to remove the image of Pioneer so there is no confusion.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 12:44:12 am by Kudasai »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2018, 01:46:17 am »
0

Challenge #2 - Simple and Elegant Submission

This was going to be my original submission and after some thought I'm going to go back to this. Sorry for the switch! I'm going to remove the image of Pioneer so there is no confusion.


It's a paradoxical card. When it has its extra effect then you have actions after playing it, so it's extra effect doesn't happen and then you don't have actions left so its extra effect happens which causes it extra effect to not happen...
("If you would have no actions after playing this." should do what you want.)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 01:47:33 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #108 on: October 01, 2018, 03:11:19 am »
0

The power of Backstreet and Pioneer vary greatly depending on how many +actions are in the kingdom, but Pioneer seems a lot more controllable. I don't really like the idea of converting actions to coins anyway (which both of those do, in effect). There's a reason diadem didn't work as a kingdom card.
Also, Worker's Village.
Well, the cashing in of Backstreet is delayed, you can't use the tokens the turn you get them. Is that enough to make it work? I don't know what you think the reason is that Diadem didn't work as a kingdom card, so that is hard to address. Of course if you don't like the concept there is not much I can do about that.
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infangthief

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #109 on: October 01, 2018, 06:15:43 am »
+1

Challenge #2 - Simple and Elegant Submission

This was going to be my original submission and after some thought I'm going to go back to this. Sorry for the switch! I'm going to remove the image of Pioneer so there is no confusion.


It's a paradoxical card. When it has its extra effect then you have actions after playing it, so it's extra effect doesn't happen and then you don't have actions left so its extra effect happens which causes it extra effect to not happen...
("If you would have no actions after playing this." should do what you want.)
A simpler solution would just be to remove the bit in brackets completely:

+1 Card. If you have no Actions: +1 Card and +2 Actions.

That works if you're being precise about when exactly your Action count gets updated.
It also works from a common sense perspective. I mean, what else could it reasonably mean?
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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2018, 06:45:25 am »
0

You are totally right, to prevent the paradox that LibraryAdventurer mentioned the future time referrence just has to be deleted.

About the actual card, I like it a lot (nothing surprising with Kudasai's designs). If you play two Sunken Cities their net effect is that of Laboratory. That sucks but I think this happens less often that pullung of a to and fro between Sunken City and a terminal.
I also like that it is different from Shanty Town and Cursed Village in terms of what happens when the card "misfires". Drawing a card is probably often better than being a Necropolis. On the other hand, it could warrant further village support which decreases the strength of Sunken City.
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2018, 11:44:55 pm »
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I can see the confusion with the text "(after playing this)" As I think you all already know, this was meant to help clear up any confusion about Actions being used when an Action is first played and not upon its resolution, but it does a poor job getting that point across. You all seem to think it's not needed, so that's good enough with me for removing it! Thanks for the heads up.

I should however argue that I think the phrasing is fine. I only bring this up, because at some point I might make a card that cares if you have Actions left and has a check for that at some point in the cards instructions. For instance: +$2, If you have Actions (after playing this), some effect. Here I think the "(after playing this)" is much more helpful in relaying the check happens mid-way into playing the card (i.e. after using an Action to play the card).

I'm basing this off the notion that playing an Action has three phases: (1) Play the Action, (2) Following the Actions instructions, and (3) Resolve the Action. Of course the rules don't quite phrase it this way, so I admit I could be wrong here. Would love to hear more from you all! Does my argument make sense? No sense at all!?

At any rate, here is the changed version (v0.2) of Sunken City. Thanks for enduring my rant.

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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #112 on: October 02, 2018, 03:21:43 am »
0

I think you are right. The rulebooks are not totally clear about this but they do distinguish between playing and resolving Actions, e.g.:

To play an Action, the player takes an Action card from his hand and lays it face-up in his play area.
[...]
Furthermore, the player must fully resolve an Action card before playing another one

And of course the wording of 1st edition Coin of the Realm:

Directly after resolving an Action, you may call this, for +2 Actions.

Also, some clarifying text on cards is definitely always helpful. Tragic Hero also says after drawing even though it is not technically necessary.
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Asper

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #113 on: October 02, 2018, 04:46:20 am »
+1

From Adventures' second edition, it's pretty clear that a card is being played until you are done resolving it. So the first version of Sunken City wouldn't work. I'd suggest just using something like "If you have no Actions now".

Personally, I feel the difference between powered-up and default play is too extreme for a 5$. Just always give it the +2 Cards.
This would also be prettier in that it now perfectly mirrors Shanty Town. Also it reduces the word count.

I'd actually think about a name that references Shanty Town in that respect (although admittedly, I also have a card called Sunken City, so I might be biased).

Eg:
Suburbs, Action, 5$
+2 Cards
If you have no Actions now, +2 Actions.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 04:47:28 am by Asper »
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2018, 03:57:49 am »
+1

From Adventures' second edition, it's pretty clear that a card is being played until you are done resolving it. So the first version of Sunken City wouldn't work. I'd suggest just using something like "If you have no Actions now".

Personally, I feel the difference between powered-up and default play is too extreme for a 5$. Just always give it the +2 Cards.
This would also be prettier in that it now perfectly mirrors Shanty Town. Also it reduces the word count.

I'd actually think about a name that references Shanty Town in that respect (although admittedly, I also have a card called Sunken City, so I might be biased).

Eg:
Suburbs, Action, 5$
+2 Cards
If you have no Actions now, +2 Actions.

I agree with all your points. Sunken City never really made sense; I merely wanted an excuse to use that great artwork! If you want it for your Sunken City just let me know. Anyways, here is the latest (and last) change:



You can't get any further from a Shanty Town than a Resort. Kind of fits the theme of the card as well. Often it is rest and relaxation one needs in order to be truly productive.
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Asper

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #115 on: October 03, 2018, 04:23:45 am »
0

Thanks, but too many of my cards have a shade of blue already  :P

Needless to say, the new art is also really pretty.
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2018, 04:28:41 pm »
+1

And now it seems clear that an unconditional +2 Cards on Resort is too strong. It is now essentially a Laboratory if you chain them and can provide +2 Actions at times. So I won't be changing it back since I've changed this enough already, but I just wanted to acknowledge I'm aware this is too strong and will change it after the competition.
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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #117 on: October 04, 2018, 05:34:12 am »
0

I'd stick with the previous version. It looks less elegant but it is mechanically more sound as the net effect of 2 Resorts being played subsequently equals that of 1, not 2 Laboratories like with the new version.
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Asper

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #118 on: October 04, 2018, 06:12:34 am »
0

And now it seems clear that an unconditional +2 Cards on Resort is too strong. It is now essentially a Laboratory if you chain them and can provide +2 Actions at times. So I won't be changing it back since I've changed this enough already, but I just wanted to acknowledge I'm aware this is too strong and will change it after the competition.

You can always price it higher. But anyhow, your deck is going to contain other cards, too, so I think you shouldn't just assume you'll always be able to chain them directly. Especially if you get other Villages (which you should, because 5$ is still a high price point to get all your Actions from there) it becomes more tricky. At the very least, unlike Lab, this imposes a limitation on how useful other Villages are to you. I think that's a fair tradeoff. +1 Card is just such a god-awful effect for a card costing 5$... Also, it's not like Hunting Party cares too much for Lab's feelings.

Here's another idea, anyhow:

If you have no Actions now, +2 Cards, +2 Actions
Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #119 on: October 04, 2018, 08:14:44 am »
0

Will judge in a few hours.
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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #120 on: October 04, 2018, 11:12:25 am »
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Especially if you get other Villages (which you should, because 5$ is still a high price point to get all your Actions from there) it becomes more tricky. At the very least, unlike Lab, this imposes a limitation on how useful other Villages are to you. I think that's a fair tradeoff. +1 Card is just such a god-awful effect for a card costing 5$.
So far we have: 2 Resorts is 2 Labs. Perfectly balanced. Or to generalize, with n being even: n Resports equals n Labs; n+1 Resorts equals n Labs plus 1 Lost City. Only upsides and no downsides.

But let's take a look at what happens in other bad cases with Village thrown into the mix.

Village plus Resort is a Lab. Bad.
Village plus 2 Resorts is Village plus 2 Labs. Perfectly balanced.

So I think that this very simple worst case scenario analysis suffices to note that the +2 Cards version is too good. You are totally right that +1 Card feels artifical and weird but that's just how it feels. Mechanically soundness is more important than feeling weird because it is novel or whatever.
And about "extremes", if we take a look at similar cards like Cursed Village or Shanty Town (this will also play very similarly, you want to play first Resort and then your terminal with Resort having the advantage over the other two cards that you can actually use it well for a draw engine) there are at worst a Necropolis. Not necessarily that much better than a Ruined Library.

Quote
Here's another idea, anyhow:

If you have no Actions now, +2 Cards, +2 Actions
Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action
This would be interesting if Herald did not exist.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #121 on: October 04, 2018, 12:41:50 pm »
+2

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting on the forum.

Haunted Mansion
$6
Action-Victory-Doom
Receive the next two Hexes. Gain a Ghost to your hand.
_____________________________________________
1VP

I have a card image, but can't figure out how to post it... Could someone tell me how to do it? Here's the link anyway.
https://shemitz.net/static/dominion3/?title=Haunted%20Mansion&description=Receive%20the%20next%20two%20Hexes.%20Gain%20a%20Ghost%20to%20your%20hand.%0A-%0A1%25&type=Action-Victory-Doom&credit=&price=%246&preview=&type2=&picture=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.churchofhalloween.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fhaunted-houses%2Fhaunted-house-tim-warnock.png&color0=2&color1=1&size=0
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Holunder9

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #122 on: October 04, 2018, 02:08:32 pm »
+1

Welcome to the forum.
I like your card. Ghost would probably OKish at a price around $7 and this gains the Ghost to hand but also shoots you thrice in the foot (in the the presence of Ghost that self-junking will hurt a bit less) so it is probably roughly balanced. If it is too good I'd just cut the hand-gaining.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #123 on: October 04, 2018, 02:13:40 pm »
0

Thanks. I've been obssessed with Ghost since Nocturne came out and have been trying to come up with ways of gaining them besides Exorcist and Cemetery. Haven't playtested it yet, though.
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Kudasai

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #124 on: October 04, 2018, 02:14:30 pm »
0

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting on the forum.

Haunted Mansion
$6
Action-Victory-Doom
Receive the next two Hexes. Gain a Ghost to your hand.
_____________________________________________
1VP

I have a card image, but can't figure out how to post it... Could someone tell me how to do it? Here's the link anyway.
https://shemitz.net/static/dominion3/?title=Haunted%20Mansion&description=Receive%20the%20next%20two%20Hexes.%20Gain%20a%20Ghost%20to%20your%20hand.%0A-%0A1%25&type=Action-Victory-Doom&credit=&price=%246&preview=&type2=&picture=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.churchofhalloween.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fhaunted-houses%2Fhaunted-house-tim-warnock.png&color0=2&color1=1&size=0

You need to find an image hosting website to put your photo on. Then it should provide you a link in BBCode. Copy that link and paste it into your forum post.

I use www.imgur.com. It requires you to create an account, but it is worth the small effort.
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