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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 9002 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #275 on: November 10, 2018, 04:29:14 am »
0

Maybe using $3's would make it more interesting, as there's a lot more variety among them than $2's, mostly due to number available. It would probably need to cost a good bit more then, though. Maybe each player could get one $2 and one $3? That would get pretty wordy, I would think.
Anyway, I really like the concept, and think it's actually more interesting using lower-cost cards rather than $4+.

Yeah, I feel like I might be missing an opportunity here by limiting Bannerman to just $2 cost cards, but for my taste the $2 cost cards offer enough diversity to create some fun and interesting combinations without making the choice overwhelming.

This whole premise is based off of a card LastFootnote made called Offering (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18448.msg752924#msg752924). It believe it ultimately had some issues with swingyness, but I think there's a chance the drafting of $2 cost cards could make it a little more viable in competitive games.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #276 on: November 14, 2018, 02:15:21 pm »
+1

I like the change to Bannermen as it it introduces asymmetry (before the card was arguably "just" a Governor variant). At best this is something that is slightly better than a double Lab (Patrician+Courtyard).
This is something you should never do but, guess what, a cantrip that yields a VP token is something you never should do either. I also think that this is roughly balanced (this is just a hunch, crazy stuff like this does of course require testing), except perhaps for Colony games.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #277 on: May 03, 2019, 01:54:21 pm »
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One of my play groups is a bit new to Dominion and they seem to really enjoy Throne Room (and variants), but don't quite get the chaining them together aspect for big hands. So my thought was to make a TR variant that rewards payload versus engine play, but could work with both if needed. This is a rough version of where I'd like to go with it:



Thoughts?
-What would you make this cost?
-Is this potentially too strong on some Kingdoms; too weak on others?

Thanks for looking and for any feedback!

[Version_0.2] Swapped the instructions text order so the +$1 check happens before the throning. This should reel in random buy power spikes and make tracking much easier.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 03:19:43 pm by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #278 on: May 16, 2019, 04:02:00 am »
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Does anything know roughly what a Silver that may trash should cost? A Silver that is a forced trash? I'd imagine the latter would be somewhere around $4.5, but I'm less sure about the former. Is it worth $5? Should something like the following cost more than $5?



Sorry for the onslaught of questions.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 04:03:09 am by Kudasai »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #279 on: May 16, 2019, 10:26:35 am »
+1

I'm not sure about what a good cost would be, but I would compare to Sauna to find one.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #280 on: May 16, 2019, 10:39:10 am »
+1

I was thinking Junk Dealer would be the place to look. Basically instead of and 1 card. And then the various differences between action and treasure, which I think tend overall slightly favor treasure due to not being able to draw dead.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #281 on: May 16, 2019, 10:50:33 am »
+1

Counterfeit seems like the obvious point of comparison to me. Loses the Buy, gives less money for trashing treasures, but gains the ability to trash non-treasures. I'd guess it ends up being a bit worse than Counterfeit overall but still seems like a solid $5 to me.

The other comparison I'd make is Priest, being a treasure seems significantly better than Priest's extra ability.

Edit: I somehow didn't see Ox when I wrote that and was just talking about a regular Silver that can trash.

I think Ox is fine at $5, have you tried it with a mandatory trash to make gaining a bunch early a little worse? Not really for power level reasons but it might make it play more interestingly.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:57:33 am by Gazbag »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #282 on: May 16, 2019, 10:56:07 am »
+2

Oh yeah, Junk dealer might be a bit better. There's also the reaction to factor in, though. It's definitely at least a $5. The question is whether it's too powerful and needs to be a $6. I don't think so personally, but I could be wrong.

Plus, Junk Dealer to Ox is a similar comparison to the one between Bazaar and Festival.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #283 on: May 16, 2019, 06:24:37 pm »
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Thanks for all the analysis. I was intially comparing this to Junk Dealer, but you all brought up many other good cards to consider for comparision. I wonder if Amulet should be thrown into the mix. I agree with Gazbag that this would be more interesting as a forced trasher. I haven't played any games with this yet, but this seems like a good place to start.

Also, I forgot to include that the Reaction can only occur during your Clean-up phase, so the window to gain an Ox is much smaller. This is mainly to counteract bottom decking your $5 cost trasher. Beyond that the added value is probably limited and this should be fine at $5. If it proves too weak, maybe I'll make it a conditional trasher.

Here's Ox with the correct wording:

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #284 on: May 18, 2019, 03:12:56 am »
0

Found this old card in my card files. Seems interesting, but probably broken. Any thoughts?



Anyone else have any Hero card (i.e. a card with the text "Gain a Treasure") ideas?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 03:52:27 am by Kudasai »
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segura

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #285 on: May 18, 2019, 06:37:41 am »
+2

Seem rather weak to me. In an engine you are likely to have a $5 in play so it seems only good for money decks. You will probably get one or two but that's it, you will stop buying them earlier than you would stop buying Harems (Harem is a Silver on play whereas the benefit of Epic Hero comes one shuffle later).
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #286 on: May 19, 2019, 02:26:00 pm »
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Seem rather weak to me. In an engine you are likely to have a $5 in play so it seems only good for money decks. You will probably get one or two but that's it, you will stop buying them earlier than you would stop buying Harems (Harem is a Silver on play whereas the benefit of Epic Hero comes one shuffle later).

Thanks for the input. These are probably some of the reasons I scrapped it years ago. It does seem rather weak. Although I like the decision making aspect of what Treasures to gain. Silvers won't collide with Epic Hero; Golds will but provide more income; and Epic Heros give 2VP but also collide. Maybe dropping it to $4 would make it more competitive. I guess I should think more on what I'd like this cards ultimate goal to be and go from there.

Anyways, I've got a few more if anyone is interested.

The first two I made awhile back, but Tejayes' Morning cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.1900) for the Weekly Design Contest inspired me to share. A current problem is they can technically create infinite loops, although to no real effect. Doing this does not generate any coin, it just spins the wheels forever. I could write something in to avoid this, but for now it seems unnecessary.

   

This last one is a more recent attempt at a Laboratory variant. It has the draw back of not being able to draw through a reshuffle, but has two benefits of adding coin if you've overdrawn and not forcing unwanted reshuffles. I'm unsure if this equals out to a $5 cost card. I have a feeling a card that is non-terminal and can draw and add coin might be too strong. Although early game you have little control over which you get. Any thoughts are appreciated.



« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:29:50 pm by Kudasai »
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Gubump

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #287 on: May 19, 2019, 02:37:54 pm »
+1


This last one is a more recent attempt at a Laboratory variant. It has the draw back of not being able to draw through a reshuffle, but has two benefits of adding coin if you've overdrawn and not forcing unwanted reshuffles. I'm unsure if this equals out to a $5 cost card. I have a feeling a card that is non-terminal and can draw and add coin might be too strong. Although early game you have little control over which you get. Any thoughts are appreciated.



It definitely doesn't seem worth $5 to me. The most common effect by far is a Lab, but the other possible effects are either +1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead) or +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1, which is between Poacher and Market. Unfortunately, while I don't think it's quite strong enough for $5, I think it's also too strong for $4, since the "worse" effects rarely trigger anyways. I think it needs to be either nerfed or buffed.
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segura

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #288 on: May 20, 2019, 07:23:35 am »
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+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.
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Gubump

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #289 on: May 20, 2019, 05:55:45 pm »
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+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

How so? Throne Room variants and Storyteller are too fringe-case to really say that Actions are better than Treasures because of those combos. (And even if Action Silver is between $3 and $4 worthy, that still doesn't change Vanguard being generally worse than Laboratory.)
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #290 on: May 20, 2019, 07:50:34 pm »
+1

+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

How so? Throne Room variants and Storyteller are too fringe-case to really say that Actions are better than Treasures because of those combos. (And even if Action Silver is between $3 and $4 worthy, that still doesn't change Vanguard being generally worse than Laboratory.)

Are you missing the fact that Vanguard gives +$2 when you've drawn your deck and a Lab would do nothing? I know Vanguard can get messed up by mid turn reshuffles but that shouldn't happen too often if you play carefully - and if you're drawing your deck every turn that just won't really happen. It seems better than lab generally to me (not strictly better).
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Gubump

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #291 on: May 20, 2019, 09:30:11 pm »
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+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

How so? Throne Room variants and Storyteller are too fringe-case to really say that Actions are better than Treasures because of those combos. (And even if Action Silver is between $3 and $4 worthy, that still doesn't change Vanguard being generally worse than Laboratory.)

Are you missing the fact that Vanguard gives +$2 when you've drawn your deck and a Lab would do nothing?

I didn't think about that situation, but the fact that it can't trigger a reshuffle makes that far harder to trigger. I'd say it's around the same strength as a Lab, though.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #292 on: May 20, 2019, 10:35:48 pm »
0

Thank you everyone for the feedback!

+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

I think this is relevant because it sets the low-bar for what value Vanguard has if it were played 100% incorrectly (i.e. +1 Action and +$2 every play).

+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

How so? Throne Room variants and Storyteller are too fringe-case to really say that Actions are better than Treasures because of those combos. (And even if Action Silver is between $3 and $4 worthy, that still doesn't change Vanguard being generally worse than Laboratory.)

Are you missing the fact that Vanguard gives +$2 when you've drawn your deck and a Lab would do nothing? I know Vanguard can get messed up by mid turn reshuffles but that shouldn't happen too often if you play carefully - and if you're drawing your deck every turn that just won't really happen. It seems better than lab generally to me (not strictly better).

It seems we are all now in somewhat agreement that a card that can both draw and provide coin afterwards has value beyond $5, but how much value is what I hope to understand. This probably depends on the average value, which cannot be figured out without knowing what the value of Vanguard is if it is played 100% correctly every time. Something like:

"Choose one: +2 Cards and +1 Actions; or +1 Card, +1 Action and +$1; or +1 Action and +$2."

I have to assume this might be around a weak $6 cost, or maybe a very strong $5 cost. All in all, I feel good playtesting this at $5.
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Gubump

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #293 on: May 20, 2019, 11:51:41 pm »
+1

Thank you everyone for the feedback!

+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

I think this is relevant because it sets the low-bar for what value Vanguard has if it were played 100% incorrectly (i.e. +1 Action and +$2 every play).

+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

How so? Throne Room variants and Storyteller are too fringe-case to really say that Actions are better than Treasures because of those combos. (And even if Action Silver is between $3 and $4 worthy, that still doesn't change Vanguard being generally worse than Laboratory.)

Are you missing the fact that Vanguard gives +$2 when you've drawn your deck and a Lab would do nothing? I know Vanguard can get messed up by mid turn reshuffles but that shouldn't happen too often if you play carefully - and if you're drawing your deck every turn that just won't really happen. It seems better than lab generally to me (not strictly better).

It seems we are all now in somewhat agreement that a card that can both draw and provide coin afterwards has value beyond $5, but how much value is what I hope to understand. This probably depends on the average value, which cannot be figured out without knowing what the value of Vanguard is if it is played 100% correctly every time. Something like:

"Choose one: +2 Cards and +1 Actions; or +1 Card, +1 Action and +$1; or +1 Action and +$2."

I have to assume this might be around a weak $6 cost, or maybe a very strong $5 cost. All in all, I feel good playtesting this at $5.

The option where you get to choose between the three effects is strictly better than Lab. I think it would actually be a fairly strong $6 cost, anyway; versatility is very valuable and underrated imo.
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segura

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #294 on: May 21, 2019, 02:11:31 am »
+1

+1 Action and +$2 (which is worse than Silver since it can be drawn dead)
There are threads on this forum about the difference between Ducat and Candlestick Maker which show why the opposite is true. Action Silver is most definitely better than Silver. If Patron did not exist, Action Silver would be a $4.

How so? Throne Room variants and Storyteller are too fringe-case to really say that Actions are better than Treasures because of those combos. (And even if Action Silver is between $3 and $4 worthy, that still doesn't change Vanguard being generally worse than Laboratory.)
TR variants (7), draw-to-X (5 cards), Actions that want Actions in your deck like Ghost, Golem, Herald, Vassal and Scrying are 17 Kingdom (yeah, Ghost is not but you can gain it two different ways) cards. That does not constitute a fringe case. Not to mention that sideway cards like Academy, Piazza, Innovation, Citadel also like Actions. Among the Landmarks we have 4 that like Actions (Colonnade, Obelisk, Orchard, Triumphal Arch) and one that likes Treasures (Keep).

Again, just read the threads about Candlestick Maker vs. Ducat. If your argument were true, Ducat would be better than Candlestick Maker in two respects (on-gain ability plus Treasure>Action). But in fact, a Coin yielding non-terminal Action is on average preferable to the Treasure equivalent which is why Ducat is a fine design, its on-gain bonus is compensated via being weaker on play than Candlestick Maker.


Are you missing the fact that Vanguard gives +$2 when you've drawn your deck and a Lab would do nothing? I know Vanguard can get messed up by mid turn reshuffles but that shouldn't happen too often if you play carefully - and if you're drawing your deck every turn that just won't really happen. It seems better than lab generally to me (not strictly better).
Not being able to triggle reshuffles could be a serious liability but I tend to agree with you. The card is overall similar to Minion which also does two things, drawing and providing Coins.
Even without discard for benefit you do often enough want to overdraw (e.g. because you intend to green soon and then your engine must be able to handle the extra cards) and Vanguard reduces the opportunity cost (you could have gotten payload instead of draw power into your deck instead) of overdrawing.
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