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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 10154 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #225 on: August 12, 2018, 10:16:12 pm »
0

I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.
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kru5h

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #226 on: August 12, 2018, 10:32:05 pm »
+1

I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.

Something like this?

Quote
Mastermind Action,
Choose three: +1 Card; +; or +1 Buy.
The choices may be the same.

If you add Actions to the choices, it just becomes way too powerful.

Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #227 on: August 13, 2018, 05:11:33 am »
0

I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.

Do you mean like:
Quote
Do this twice: Choose two: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1.
This would be strictly better than a bunch of stuff like Lab, Market, Lost City and such, so a lot more that $5. Kru5h's card is more in-line with existing $5s like Wild Hunt or Werewolf, Smithies with different options.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #228 on: August 13, 2018, 01:55:37 pm »
0

I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.

Do you mean like:
Quote
Do this twice: Choose two: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1.
This would be strictly better than a bunch of stuff like Lab, Market, Lost City and such, so a lot more that $5. Kru5h's card is more in-line with existing $5s like Wild Hunt or Werewolf, Smithies with different options.

I was thinking along the lines of what you said, Choose two from the pawn list, then choose two from the pawn list again. The big headache is how to say "the first two choices must be different; the second two choices must be different as well but you can choose options that you picked the first time." I would then need to put a drawback of some sort on the card to bring it down to the $5 level.
That said, Kru5h's Mastermind is pretty good. I might add trash a card to the list to make it a bit more like Steward if I go that direction. It certainly would be easier to balance that a straight double-pawn (in fact, I think it's pretty balanced already.)
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kru5h

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #229 on: August 13, 2018, 09:01:35 pm »
+1

That said, Kru5h's Mastermind is pretty good. I might add trash a card to the list to make it a bit more like Steward if I go that direction. It certainly would be easier to balance that a straight double-pawn (in fact, I think it's pretty balanced already.)

Be warned that trashing up to 3 cards (Plus the other option value of this card) would make it extremely powerful. A card that starts off trashing 3, then turns into a Smithy or terminal Gold after you're done trashing is probably a $6 card.

On the other hand, without the trashing, it's slightly weak.

The card is simple enough that you could add a little bonus to it. "While this is in play..." (Insert something interesting.)

Example: While this is in play, Masterminds cost less, but not less than .
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 09:42:09 pm by kru5h »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #230 on: August 15, 2018, 12:40:15 pm »
0

Tried out my Mastermind a few times over the last few days. It seems pretty good as a card underneath Tomb Raider that is the OP DoublePawn version but also requires you to have gained a Treasure before you can buy it.

The logic here is something like this:
If you spend $5 and two buys for Mastermind and a Copper, well, you just bought a Copper. Have fun with that; it should counterbalance Mastermind.
If you spend $8 and two buys for Mastermind and a Silver, well, you could have bought a Province. Did you really want to do that? (in practice, the answer may very well be yes, yes I did.)
If you spend $11 and two buys for Mastermind and a Gold, see above but substitute Colony for Province.
If you gained a Treasure using a gainer and buy Mastermind, then probably it's preeetty good.

Mastermind sits under Tomb Raider because there is an art link between the two and because this always means that there's a method that allows you to buy Mastermind.

I will be trying out Kru5h's version over the next few days. It looks incredibly solid, but I think I'll go with the version I find the most fun.
I'll also try out my modified version of Kru5h's Mastermind (add trashing, put it below Tomb Raider and/or make you have to gain a Treasure first) and see what's the best variant.


On a side note, I'm trying to decide whether Tomb Raider should be immune to other Tomb Raiders.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 12:47:52 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2018, 04:24:43 pm »
0

One other thing I noticed with Tomb Raider is that, if it gets blocked by a moat, it does absolutely nothing.
I'm not sure I that I like this. On the other hand I'm not sure how to fix this without making it more expensive (unless I make it terminal?).
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2018, 05:41:26 pm »
+1

Quote
Mastermind Action,
Choose three: +1 Card; +; or +1 Buy.
The choices may be the same.

If you add Actions to the choices, it just becomes way too powerful.
I think it is mechanically sound but most of the times this will be used as Smithy, +2 Cards +1 Buy or as Woodcutter which is perhaps a bit bland.
Then again the card can become funky. like a Mastermind attracting 3 Peddlers.


I'm actually strongly considering simplifying the Mastermind into a doublePawn of sorts.
The question is whether 2x Pawn is a good $5 Action. I'd like to target it at $5 because I feel the set needs some more $5s.

Do you mean like:
Quote
Do this twice: Choose two: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1.
This would be strictly better than a bunch of stuff like Lab, Market, Lost City and such, so a lot more that $5. Kru5h's card is more in-line with existing $5s like Wild Hunt or Werewolf, Smithies with different options.

I was thinking along the lines of what you said, Choose two from the pawn list, then choose two from the pawn list again. The big headache is how to say "the first two choices must be different; the second two choices must be different as well but you can choose options that you picked the first time." I would then need to put a drawback of some sort on the card to bring it down to the $5 level.
Hyperflexibility does not lead to a good card (monostrategy) and it is a mess to track. Also, powerwise this is just off the charts. Here is what will most often be chosen IMO, Labs with a cherry on top:
+2 Card  +2 Actions
+2 Cards  +1 Action  +1  Buy
+2 Cards  +1 Action  +1 Coin


So even if you include some serious liability, like gaining some junk when you gain the card or whatever, it will be boring. Normally you need several different cards in an engine (even a deck with 10 Minions wants some other stuff thrown into the mix) whereas here only Megapawns and some payload cards suffice.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #233 on: August 24, 2018, 12:09:17 pm »
0

I am quite concerned about the hyperflexibility, however I'm hoping that throwing the card down a well (okay, under 5 other cards) and then putting the gate of "also you need to have gained a treasure) will make it so that other strategies get a head start.

In practice, I'm not sure how real that expectation is.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #234 on: August 29, 2018, 04:00:16 pm »
0

I'm not dead yet, I swear!

While waiting on life to be unbusy enough to test Mastermind I've been playing around with a less crazy variant of Shipwreck:

Quote
Shipwreck - Action - $3:
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
Gain a card costing up to $3 onto the bottom of your deck.
-
When you trash this, gain a Treasure onto the bottom of your deck.

The problem here is I haven't tested it yet to know what power level the top half is. The bottom half is quite powerful, and may need to be capped at $6. But it should be noted that like Squire, it can't trash itself.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #235 on: August 29, 2018, 04:38:45 pm »
0

"Onto the bottom of your deck" is actually a mechanic I should try to do more of.
It's less powerful than "On the top of your deck" in small doses, but if you can do it enough times before your deck runs out, it lets you set up a super-turn, albeit with difficulty.

Right now the only card that does "onto the bottom of your deck" is Shipwreck. Maybe I need to think about revisiting a few of the weaker cards to give them this mechanic.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #236 on: August 30, 2018, 04:52:57 pm »
+2

"Onto the bottom of your deck" is actually a mechanic I should try to do more of.
It's less powerful than "On the top of your deck" in small doses, but if you can do it enough times before your deck runs out, it lets you set up a super-turn, albeit with difficulty.

Right now the only card that does "onto the bottom of your deck" is Shipwreck. Maybe I need to think about revisiting a few of the weaker cards to give them this mechanic.

I'm not really sure gaining to the bottom is that interesting. The discard pile already basically functions as the bottom of your deck. You're always drawing your payload before the green goes in your discard, so it doesn't matter whether your payload was in your discard or on the bottom. Also, IRL having to lift up your whole deck to put a card under it is a pain.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #237 on: August 30, 2018, 07:04:57 pm »
0

I'm not really sure gaining to the bottom is that interesting. The discard pile already basically functions as the bottom of your deck. You're always drawing your payload before the green goes in your discard, so it doesn't matter whether your payload was in your discard or on the bottom. Also, IRL having to lift up your whole deck to put a card under it is a pain.

The major difference between bottom, top, and discard pile is that bottom lets you specify an order. It's sort of like doing that to the top of your deck but it saves between turns... at least until your deck runs out. So unlike "reorder the top of your deck" which is immediately consumed on your next turn/few draws, reordering the bottom of your deck is consumed a little while later, allowing you to do it more than once before consuming the cards, especially in a larger deck. In theory, it can allow you to create one or two really advantageous turns sometime in the future.

The nuance is small, but for instance even using Shipwreck, if you play 4 shipwrecks and gain or move 4 silvers to the bottom of your deck, that's a province when you get there. Assuming you draw all of those cards.

I played a game with a version of Mastermind that could put two of any card onto the bottom of your deck, and it was pretty good at setting up future turns.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #238 on: August 31, 2018, 02:35:55 am »
+1

I agree with the Commodore, I'm afraid. Putting cards at the bottom of your deck isn't uninteresting. It's just not interesting and colorful enough to warrant doing more than one or maybe two cards about. Pearl Diver is one card, Shipwreck is a second. This is covered.

It's a bit like how Imp and Conclave don't cover all the ground that "play what you didn't play yet" cards could cover. But they cover enough for it to make the remaining space less interesting than something else in comparison.

Also in general, if one card does something, it's unique. If a second card does it, it' s not only the second one which isn't unique now. Neither is.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #239 on: August 31, 2018, 10:30:23 am »
0

Yes, I should maybe clarify; I'm maybe planning to do it with a second card, that would be it. I'd argue that Pearl Diver isn't quite the same since it pulls cards from the bottom to the top.

At the same time, perhaps the mechanic is best kept to Shipwreck with the knowledge that Shipwreck gets pretty good if Throned.

I have a Very Wacky mastermind I'm trying that puts cards in play onto the bottom of the deck, among other choices. That would be as much as I'd ever want to do.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #240 on: August 31, 2018, 11:36:35 am »
+1

Putting stuff at the bottom of the deck is only interesting in combination with a card like Pearl Diver.
For example a very simple split pile off the top of my hat:

$4
Action
+2 Actions
Look at the bottom card of your deck. You may put it into your hand. If you do not, +1 Card.

$5
Action
+3 Cards
When you gain or discard this, put it at the bottom of your deck.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #241 on: August 31, 2018, 12:30:11 pm »
0

I've mentioned the Very Wacky Mastermind a few times, so here it is in its WIP glory. It may not last long enough to waste brain power on, and it likely should be posted on the "bad card ideas" thread, but here it is:

Quote
Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
Choose one: put your hand on the bottom of your deck and +4 cards; or, put 2 cards from play onto the bottom of your deck; or, gain a copy of a non-Mastermind card in play to your hand.
-
You can play this by discarding another card from your hand.

In some ways it's a worse Minion; in some ways it's a different Scheme; in some ways it's a Village that you can play with a dead hand; in some ways it might just be a broken Action gainer.
I have not given much thought to the balance between the three options.

Or whether one or all of the three options are OP.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 12:33:08 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #242 on: August 31, 2018, 01:19:34 pm »
0

Looks broken, mainly due to the last option. Cantrip gaining / non-terminal hand-gaining is pretty good, only Ironworks+Mill and Cobbler do that and perhaps not conincidentally with $4s, whereas this can gain also gain better cards.
If there are any Peddler variants and you can overdraw the Scheme option might also be good. Suppose you can bottom-deck 2 Conspirators, then Mastermind boils down to a non-terminal 4 Coins. Or, perhaps even better, Scheme and replay terminal payload cards which might be feasible due to Mastermind's village option.

Overall I like it, it is a versatile card and the bottom-decking from play is quite innovative. Just has to be nerfed some.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #243 on: August 31, 2018, 03:51:43 pm »
0

Yep, it's the last clause that is very likely very broken; I'm actually thinking of dropping it altogether and leaving the card as a Minion/Schemer, since the Village part of the card is already very useful.

Edit: I probably need to make it so that it can't affect Duration cards, since I don't want to enable Hireling stacking.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:05:06 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #244 on: September 04, 2018, 12:26:19 am »
0

Unfortunately, it's still broken: there's an instant win combo if you have the following:

1 Mastermind
1 King's Court
1-2 of any card giving +Action, +$ (or Coffers), +Buy

and no other cards in your deck (I assume that the only reliable way to get here is Donate. But if Donate is in the game it's extremely reliable.

What you do is this: first, play your Market-like. Then, play King's Court, targeting Mastermind. With mastermind, do the following:
Put the Market-like or Market-likes on the bottom of your deck.
Put the Mastermind and King's Court on the bottom of your deck.
Choose to put your hand (which is now empty) on the bottom of your deck, and draw 4 cards.
Repeat.

Unless there is some sort of interaction with the "Lose track of" rule -- which if I understand it properly, there won't be -- you will now be able to gain unlimited money and buys, then pay off Donate, and buy everything on the table.
The winner of this is simply the first person to buy the requisite cards and use them, which with Donate isn't very hard.

I think the solution would be to gate the Mastermind on first play, like:

Quote
Maybe not broken Mastermind - Action -$5
+1 Action
If this is the first time you played a Mastermind this turn, choose one: put your hand on the bottom of your deck and +4 cards; or, put 2 non-Duration cards from play onto the bottom of your deck. Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Buy.
-
You can play this by discarding another card from your hand.

For the record, +1 Card +1 Buy makes second+ Masterminds into slightly weirdly time-spliced Worker's Villages.
Well, only if you use them to restart dead turns. If not, then it's a slightly worse Market Square.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 11:07:11 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #245 on: September 06, 2018, 10:44:05 pm »
0

My suggestion

Mastermind
Action - $5
Do this 3 times:
Choose one: +1 Card; Trash a card from your hand; discard the top card of your deck and gain a Silver onto your deck

A lot of interesting options but none of them would be $5 on a standalone card
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 10:47:15 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #246 on: September 08, 2018, 09:13:43 am »
0

My suggestion

Mastermind
Action - $5
Do this 3 times:
Choose one: +1 Card; Trash a card from your hand; discard the top card of your deck and gain a Silver onto your deck

A lot of interesting options but none of them would be $5 on a standalone card
Doesn't look all that interesting to me. It is basically just a better version of Count.
Or from another perspective it is a strong, probably overpowered (I am pretty sure that "+3 Cards or trash 3 cards from your hand would be balanced at $5") Smithy+ that you can use early on for trashing. Not sure that the Bureaucrat option will be often used.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #247 on: September 10, 2018, 10:29:58 am »
0

After playing with "Maybe not broken Mastermind", above, I came to the conclusion that it has an identity crisis: You either want to play it to restart dead hands, or to move cards from play onto the bottom of your deck or to restart your hand.
You often truly do not want to do both, although it's sort of nice when it happens.

So now I'm trying out this somewhat more straightforward Mastermind:
Quote
Somewhat more straightforward Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
You may put 2 non-Duration cards from play onto the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
You may play this by discarding or trashing another card from your hand.

It loses its minion-y element, which is sort of sad but also makes it a safer card to print.
The big part here is that if you play it straight from you hand and don't put cards on the bottom of your deck, it's a pretty bad card, roughly $2.

But if you use it at full power, say, trashing a crappy (or payoff) card, putting a payload and some sort of village on the bottom of your deck, and getting value for the +Buy, then I'm hoping it's in the $5 realm. Testing will be needed.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #248 on: September 10, 2018, 10:52:17 am »
0

In other news, I noticed that Tomb Raider becomes a very bad card if it is blocked by a Moat or Lighthouse, and so I'm thinking of buffing it a bit, like so:

Quote
Resilient Tomb Raider - Action - Attack - $3
+1 Action
Each other player discards an Attack card (or reveals they can't).
You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.
If you didn't, +1 Card.

This makes it a bit better if 1) it's blocked, or 2) your opponents are plebs and they only have Coppers, or 3) your opponents are warmongers (dammit, Gandhi!).

It still makes it a bad card (Cantrip nothing!) when blocked but not so bad that it's a risk to play it at all.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #249 on: September 10, 2018, 12:40:59 pm »
0

Moving cards from play back to your deck is a very dangerous ability, you don't really need anything too uncommon to make infinite loops. E.g. Somewhat more straightforward Mastermind and a couple of Peddlers can produce unlimited +Buy and +$ after deck is drawn. So you need to at least stop Mastermind from putting Masterminds on the bottom of your deck.

I wouldn't worry too much about an attack being bad vs Moat or Lighthouse/Guardian. That's just 3 cards out of all the dominion cards and also most attacks are weak if they're being blocked, that's kind of the point of Moat/Lighthouse?
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