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Author Topic: Fix the worst cards  (Read 6190 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Fix the worst cards
« on: March 08, 2018, 11:30:40 am »
+6

Based on the recent card rankings, below are the cards in the bottom 10% of their cost categories (I'm just guessing on the $3s, since those numbers weren't provided).

Your job is to suggest a fix for the card that:

A) Doesn't change its fundamental behavior
B) Would bump it out of the bottom 10%
C) is as small a change as possible




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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2018, 12:00:34 pm »
+2

Harvest
make it non-terminal. It can be better and cheaper than gold if in a well designed deck, and will suddenly be appealing in combination with draw-to-x.
"variety matters" is my fav theme in the game.  those cards need to be good.
where's my sharpie?

Masterpiece
Make it worth 2$. You could make the overpay mandatory if you were sad about punking silver
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 12:06:48 pm by weesh »
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Simon Jester

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2018, 12:04:33 pm »
+3

Meh. I don't think they need any fixes really. Most of them are low in the rankings because they are niched and/or favor big money, which is not popular here but when they are good there is nothing to fix about them. I mean, Masterpiece is included, when that card is important it's insanely good - it's just not that often a silver flood will be that good to be worth it.

Harvest has it's limit and could be improved I guess (I would suggest add +1$ to make it possible to spike 5 in total)  Harem could cost $5, but really - something needs to be at the bottom and with the outtakes I don't really see any duds anymore. I have won with harvest as a key part and I have lost by ignoring Transmute. B-crat is poor, but I have defended it before with it's a decent, or at least fun, card to play with in the beginning. It does it's job well, it's just not a very good job and that's the tl;dr for all these cards. You start ignoring them when you know how to play Dominion, when you don't there is nothing wrong with them and it's pretty amusing to learn the game by using them too much and then get the "a-ha" experience when someone ignores them and crush you (thinking especially of Pirate Ship here...) 

Oyvind

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2018, 12:08:29 pm »
0

For all of these cards that tell you to «gain a silver», change the text to «gain a card costing up to [3]». For Beggar that would be «gain 2 cards costing up to [3]». For Mine, reduce the cost to 4. It’s a more specialized Remodel, and even though it gives a bigger boost, you won’t use it as often. Besides, Remodel isn’t exactly a power card, either.

The recurring theme here is that treasure cards used to be more important than they are now. Change the cards subtly according to this knowledge, and they will become better. The problem is that there will always be cards that are worse than the others. I like the current card pool, so I don’t see a big need.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 12:18:38 pm by Oyvind »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2018, 12:14:07 pm »
0

Harvest has it's limit and could be improved I guess (I would suggest add +1$ to make it possible to spike 5 in total) 

This is my fix for Harvest, as well, and actually the one that made me think to make this thread today.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 12:17:22 pm »
+2

Meh. I don't think they need any fixes really...

Still a fun challenge. 
Personally, I'm a big fan of harem, well out of proportion to it's power, because it has a lot of nice synergies that few other cards grant. It can lead to an interesting game in a designed kingdom...but i'm still anticipating the tweaks others have for it.

Quote
For all of these cards that tell you to «gain a silver»...
For bureaucrat, what if it set the silver aside, then put it into your next hand?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 03:21:57 pm by weesh »
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Simon Jester

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2018, 12:19:54 pm »
0

Harvest
make it non-terminal. It can be better and cheaper than gold if in a well designed deck, and will suddenly be appealing in combination with draw-to-x.
"variety matters" is my fav theme in the game.  those cards need to be good.
where's my sharpie?

With Rebuild in mind, I'm very skeptical of making dud-5's non-terminal. It just makes them spammable and unfun. Wouldn't like this version much.

Simon Jester

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2018, 12:26:16 pm »
0

Quote
Still a fun challenge.


Yes, sure. Sorry if I rained on your parade cave-o-sapiens, I just like many of these cards a lot :)

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2018, 12:29:47 pm »
+3

Quote
Still a fun challenge.


Yes, sure. Sorry if I rained on your parade cave-o-sapiens, I just like many of these cards a lot :)

I’m not suggesting they NEED to be fixed; something has to be the worst card, after all — but it’s a topic I’ve seen discussed a lot for many of these cards individually, and it seemed like a fun exercise.
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weesh

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2018, 12:30:38 pm »
+1

Harvest
make it non-terminal. It can be better and cheaper than gold if in a well designed deck, and will suddenly be appealing in combination with draw-to-x.
"variety matters" is my fav theme in the game.  those cards need to be good.
where's my sharpie?

With Rebuild in mind, I'm very skeptical of making dud-5's non-terminal. It just makes them spammable and unfun. Wouldn't like this version much.

Fair...but it is a variety matters card...is that enough to encourage diversity and not spamming the harvests?

You could give it the conclave/imp "You may play an Action card from your hand that you don't have a copy of in play" clause.  That allows it to be effectively non-terminal, encourage even more diversity, and spamming them becomes a challenge.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 12:32:45 pm »
+1

There are only a couple of these I would agree need a "fix."

For a card to need a fix, I think it needs to be worse than alternatives in the vast majority if not in all situations it can be applied to.
A card can be very narrow in its applicability, or effective in a small range of situations, but that makes the game better, not worse.

Better questions than "how can we fix these cards" is "when are these cards the best way to achieve your objective" and "how do we play to unlock their potential?"

Beggar is a great example (and not just with Gardens gain spam). There are times in the game, and decks, where it's basically a 2-cost gold.

Mandarin affords consistency to otherwise inconsistent money-focused decks by seeding next turn's hand. It has Shenanigans with Native Village too. Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand punish opponents who thinned too much without establishing payload.

I could go on about most of these, but you get the idea. It's a good thing that these cards are niche in their utility, it keeps playing on autopilot from being viable (also Fool and Mine are reasonably powerful in most situations).

In short, context matters. All of it, in every game.

The ones I would agree need a "fix," as in the mind reels trying to come up with any situation in which they are an effective route to victory are Harvest, Navigator and Philosopher's Stone. Those ones, yes I agree are pretty much never relevant.

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Chappy7

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2018, 12:38:50 pm »
+2

If we bump them all out of the bottom 10% then we'll just have a new bottom 10%....Either way, it's fun to try to think of fixes.

First of all, I don't think fool is all that bad, and neither is royal seal.  They are useful often enough that I'd be fine with them just chillin.

Mandarin's top-decking should be optional.  Also, the on-buy should let you either top-deck or discard treasures.

Fortune Teller should hand out a curse if the other player has no curses or victories.  At $3, it doesn't need to have too much of a buff.

Beggar's reaction should allow you to trash up to two coppers from your hand or discard pile.  That would be fun.  It would be good in attack heavy boards. Maybe it would have to trash just one.  IDK.

What if Masterpiece had +1 card? I know that's weird and awkward for a treasure, but if you have a silver flood, it would most likely be helpful.

Duchess....IDK.  I hate this card. It could say "When you gain a Duchy, you may gain a Duchess.  If you do, +1 vp."  I might do that occasionally.

Transmute  Throw it in the fire.  Fixed. 

Cache is tough.  Could it just cost $4? If that's too good, it could make you top-deck one of the coppers.

Harem I agree with the general $5 cost idea.

Beurocrat Should let you gain the silver or take $2

Phil Stone Worth $1 per 5 cards in your deck and discord, or worth $1 per 5 cards in play.

Navigator Either discard all 5 cards, or discard 1 card.

Noble Brigand Give out the copper anytime no cards are trashed.

Harvest Reveal 5 cards.  More likely to get $4.  Possible $5.  Still awkward reshuffles, but whatevs.

Mine If it says "up to $4 more" would that be good enough? Cooper to Potion, Talisman, Quarry.  Silver to Counterfeit, Royal Seal, Horn of Plenty, etc...

Pirate Ship If you trash at least one opponent's Copper, you may trash a card from your hand. Idk.  This one is tough to fix without big change.  It's too good with most of the fixes I can think of. 

Transmute for reals this time Rather than gain transmutes, just gain a card up to $4.  I'd buy that a lot I think.  Pretty similar to Devil's Workshop I guess. 




 

« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 04:59:26 pm by Chappy7 »
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humcalc216

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2018, 12:47:56 pm »
+1

A lot of these cards would become more interesting with +1 Buy.  Some (such as Bureaucrat) would have that feel very out of place.  Some (such as Transmute) still feel out of place, though it would make powerful engines on boards lacking other buys think hard about getting one.  Others (such as Mandarin) would get much stronger.  And of course, this would make a couple of them "strictly better" than Woodcutter (quotation marks indicate I'm ignoring edge cases and don't want this thread to turn into that other thread).
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Gazbag

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2018, 12:55:30 pm »
+1

Well I'm kinda bedridden right now so I have time to waste...

Duchess: Doesn't really need the Spying thing, I actually think Duchess is fine. Can be interesting deciding whether it's better than nothing on a 5/2.

Beggar: This is fine, has it's uses in decks that don't mind Copper and as fodder for Mercenary or whatever. where is Embargo?

Masterpiece: This card isn't even bad.

Fortune Teller: -1 card token is the fixed version of this attack.

Fool: No saving this, I don't think this card should exist at all.

Pirate Ship: I guess you can give this non-Copper wording. Pirate Ship does have it's moments anyway so it's fine really.

Bureaucrat: Oh man, this is so weak. It doesn't even have it's moments because Silver is better in those moments.

Navigator: Totally fine card, it's kinda like a non-terrible Harvest. I guess it could Cartographer the top of the deck but it's really underrated.

Noble Brigand: This is fine.

Harvest: Needs +buy, then it can join the ranks of Wine Merchant and Sacred Grove. Harvest's problem is that all it does is make $ and it's terminal so Silver/Gold with a terminal that actually does something will just be better. Making it non-terminal just makes it better than Gold, increasing the $ it makes doesn't solve the problem because it's terminal so Gold will still be better at making $.

Cache: Banquet is "fixed" Cache.

Mine: This could do with +$1. Mine isn't bad like Harvest, it's power level is just a little below most of the other $5s. Making it a terminal Silver instead of Copper would help that.

Mandarin: The on-gain really wants to be optional, it still wouldn't be great but it would be much more buyable.

Royal Seal: This isn't too bad, maybe you could staple this effect onto Venture or something because Venture could do with a buff.

Harem: Harem is fine, in a game where you'd buy Gold it's almost always good to buy Harem at some point.

Transmute: If this could gain good actions instead of more transmutes it would be useful.

P.Stone: This just doesn't work as a Potion card. It could probably work at a different cost. As a treasure that just makes $ it's still pretty boring though.
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O

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2018, 12:56:15 pm »
+1

I picked up a fortune teller in a recent Page game hoping to make their traveller miss... forgot Necromancer (and therefore Zombie Mason) was in the game. Oops.

On a more relevant note, I think Harvest, Harem, Navigator, Philosopher's Stone, Transmute and maybe Duchess need sprucing up the most. Transmute/Philo Stone are nigh-unplayable and the rest are just incredibly bland "upgrades" from a silver.

Philosopher's Stone: think if Philo Stone counted hand + deck + discard it might be playable? Even if you are able to get a huge hand it's not like you couldn't have just gotten golds or other payload anyways most of the time, so I definitely don't think it would be game breaking

Transmute: "Gain a Transmute" -> "Gain an action costing up to X" (not sure if 4 or 5). Has the problem then of being somewhat similar to university. Nominally "gain a card up to 3P" might be cool but sucks when you aren't playing with relevant Alchemy cards

Harvest: I think it'd be better as a +cards card personally. Usually if you're manipulating the top of your deck you still want to draw those cards, not discard. And discarding the top 4-5 is just very swingy if you have a few key cards.

Can't think of a good wording but

"Look at the top 4 cards of your deck, discard any duplicates in those four and draw the rest"

 would be an interesting 4$.


Duchess: It's actual on play effect could relate back to Duchy. This is probably horridly imbalanced one way or the other but: keep the on-gain and make the primary effect "+1$. +1$ coin for each [Duchy token] you own" Setup: Place 8 [Duchy tokens]on the Duchy pile. When you gain a duchy, take a [Duchy Token]



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JThorne

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2018, 01:05:34 pm »
+5

I don't know that most of these need "fixing." In fact, many of them already have re-designs in newer sets that used a similar mechanic but to greater effect. Cartographer is arguably a better Navigator, Bandit is a better Noble Brigand (that's how bad Thief was. It needed TWO redesigns.)

And more than half the list is terminal money, which really should remain nerfed. If made too powerful, then really boring money strategies would start to outperform more interesting and nuanced engine strategies. I mean, if Mine was $4 and you could reliably open with it, it would speed up BM significantly. Especially if you opened Mine/Silver and could trash four Coppers in your opening shuffle and start copying the Silver (sorry, couldn't resist.)

Just because a card is frequently ignorable doesn't mean it's bad. Who hasn't used Beggar/Gardens or Beggar/Triumph? Mandarin/Capital? Cache/Counterfeit/Banquet/Tower points for emptying the Copper pile in a 4-player game? (Ok, maybe that's a stretch, but it happened.)

Maybe some of the cards could be made slightly more attractive without breaking the game when they appeared. Harvest might honestly be broken if it had +Action. it would almost always be better than Gold and would almost certainly make a BM "Province rush" better than most engines. And Masterpiece gaining any <=3-cost card instead of Silver would be bonkers broken. Pay $7, gain four Encampments? That's a big nope!

The only cards on this list I would be tempted to improve are the ones that would make the game more interesting, not less so. Here are some possibilities:

Royal Seal : $4? Topdeckers are really interesting. Scheme, Traveling Fair, Courtyard, Tracker... these all potentially create very interesting situations for setting up combos. And hey, they're all cheap. I don't think a Royal Seal you could open with would break anything. But it's just too expensive to be worth it when competing with other $5-costs.

Philosopher's stone: Count ALL cards? It's useless in an engine. Single-card economy exploders like Bank and Fortune make engines especially attractive; adding one more treasure to this category couldn't hurt.

Transmute: Add a "may" to the gaining? Breaks the flavor, though.

But honestly, Donald X spent a lot of time and energy designing these cards and playtesting them, and it's likely that many of these ideas or ideas similar to them were tried and rejected.

In fact, second-guessing D.X actually belongs in a whole separate section:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=11.0

This whole thread should probably be moved to "Variants and Fan Cards"

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benedettosoxfan

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2018, 01:22:55 pm »
+1

I think pirate ship already has been "fixed" in a way, but it's been done so through 2 cards: miser and noble brigand. Miser keeps the concept of building up to get a formidable terminal payload card, and noble brigand fixes the idea of "I want to trash my opponents treasures without doing them a huge favor." I don't see how noble brigand can be "fixed" any further. I just think that concept of trashing your opponent's good treasures can't really be improved any further without making the game super un-fun.

As for other cards that could maybe use a buff, I think royal seal could be fine as copper instead of a silver and maybe having it cost $3 or $4. Tracker has shown me how useful the topdecking effect can be, but for $5 I would rather just have whatever card I would have been topdecking in the first place.

I like the idea of making bureaucrat a terminal silver. Combined with its attack, that would make a pretty decent counterpart to militia. Time hasn't been good to the old bureaucrat. I don't want to say he's obsolete, but the game has changed too much since the base set days for his effect to really ever be worthwhile.

Adding a simple +$1 to harvest is probably fine as other have said. It's just not a good or exciting card as it is. Something needs to make it tantalizing enough at $5.

As for transmute and p-stone, I've literally never bought either of them so I wouldn't even know lol.

The other cards all have their niche. They might not be great as other cards, but something has to be in last. Just buy 'em when they are useful, and don't buy 'em when they're not useful.

I'll throw in another name that could use a fix more than some of these other bottom tier cards: Rogue. I mentioned this in the rankings thread, but the lack of a choice is so frustrating to me that I almost always avoid the card altogether. It's a really tough fix though. Taking away the choice just makes it a strictly better Dame Sylvia, and anything else I can think of makes it either too powerful, too un-fun, or too similar to either knights or graverobber.
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2018, 01:52:07 pm »
+3

Masterpiece
Make it worth 2$. You could make the overpay mandatory if you were sad about punking silver
Knowing what we know now, a simpler tweak would be to make it an overpay Event. Cost $2+, gain one Silver per overpay.

Edit: So... um... Delve is already a fixed Masterpiece?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 02:23:23 pm by crj »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2018, 01:53:41 pm »
+8

Cough *Variants and Fan Cards* Cough
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Gazbag

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2018, 01:53:54 pm »
0

I'll throw in another name that could use a fix more than some of these other bottom tier cards: Rogue. I mentioned this in the rankings thread, but the lack of a choice is so frustrating to me that I almost always avoid the card altogether. It's a really tough fix though. Taking away the choice just makes it a strictly better Dame Sylvia, and anything else I can think of makes it either too powerful, too un-fun, or too similar to either knights or graverobber.

Rogue is good. You should think of it as a gainer 1st and an attack 2nd, because it's a very good gainer and a weak attack. You need a way to get things into the trash for it to gain of course so it's quite nice with trash for benefit.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2018, 02:14:41 pm »
0

This whole discussion really illustrates the problem with "ranking" Dominion cards in the first place. It's too normalizing for Dominion, which is simply more nuanced and variable than what would allow for that kind of evaluation.

All of the context matters all of the time. If you reject the notion of evaluating cards in a vacuum, ever, I promise you'll become a better player for it.

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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 02:16:49 pm »
+1

Duchess: People hardly ever buy it anyway, so maybe increase the price to $4. That opens up interesting trash-for-benefit tricks.

Fortune Teller: Um... until they reveal two Victory or Curse cards? And reduce the cost to $4. Then it's a Militia which affects their next turn instead of this one. Ish.

Fool: Yes, well! It sounds like this one got tweaked and tweaked already in an effort to make it work. Perhaps it should just be dropped?

Pirate Ship: Every player, including you, reveals the top two cards of their deck and you may choose a treasure that they must trash. That way you can buff Pirate Ship by trashing your own Copper and/or elect to leave opponents' Copper alone.

Navigator: Why not just "Look at your deck and put it back in any order"? Would that be overpowered and/or too slow?

Royal Seal: Would $4 be too cheap?

Transmute: Gain a card costing up to $3 more that does not share a type with it
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crj

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2018, 02:21:53 pm »
+4

You say "worst", but this is about fixing the weakest cards. It might be more interesting to fix the cards people enjoy least and/or find most broken.
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Gazbag

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2018, 02:40:43 pm »
+2

This whole discussion really illustrates the problem with "ranking" Dominion cards in the first place. It's too normalizing for Dominion, which is simply more nuanced and variable than what would allow for that kind of evaluation.

All of the context matters all of the time. If you reject the notion of evaluating cards in a vacuum, ever, I promise you'll become a better player for it.

These lists can be useful to new players. A lot of new players don't immediately see the value of Chapel for example and ignore it, but if they then read these card lists and see Chapel at the top of the $2's they'll hopefully learn something and become better. On the other hand seeing Masterpeice at the bottom of the $3s and deciding to never buy Masterpiece ever because it sucks will make them worse at the game. So I guess you have to be smart about it?
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fix the worst cards
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2018, 02:43:40 pm »
+1

You say "worst", but this is about fixing the weakest cards. It might be more interesting to fix the cards people enjoy least and/or find most broken.

Regarding this, I'm interested in ideas for fixing Rebuild. The idea is somewhat intriguing; improve your Estates instead of trashing them, but the implementation... yeah. Would making it terminal be too weak? Maybe make it terminal, but let you choose between upgrading or gaining an Estate?
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