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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins  (Read 2446 times)

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gloures

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« on: January 20, 2018, 12:50:48 am »
+19

The time you were all waiting for is finally here, you all don't need to wait anymore, the ranking everyone was waiting for is finally ready: Ruins!!

We had 27 votes for this list.


The Ruins

#5 =0 Ruined Village (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 1.8% ▲1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 0.9% / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 4.7%

In almost unanimous agreement the community decides that this is the worst ruin. Only one person did not vote it last (it is noteworthy, though, that this one person managed to make the weighted score be double the amount of the unweighted score). Outside of some edge cases (Conspirator and Peddler being the main ones) this is simply a dead card in your deck, the action it gives is no more than the action you had just spent playing it. This is a pretty deserved position for this card.
#4 ▼1 Survivors (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 37.4% ▼12.4pp / Unweighted Average: 38.0% / Median: 25% ▼25pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2%

The biggest loser of this year's ranking. Survivors drops one place and over 12 pp. At the cost of one action, Survivors provides a very marginal benefit, but also never hurts you when played. It can be good whenever you want topdeck inspection, but I feel like it's fall is deserved.

#3 ▲1 Ruined Library (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 46.3% ▼1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 48.2% / Median: 50% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Ruined Library goes up a place since last year, but doesn't really improve it's overall score. It also gets the one last place vote that Ruined Village did not get. One might think that Ruined Library should be above Abandoned Mine, since +cards is generally more valuable than +coins, but +1 card in a terminal is just kinda very awkward to play. Unless you have extra actions there is a good chance that this simply ends up drawing dead an action you actually wanted to play, which is usually a really bad result.
#2 =0 Abandoned Mine (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 67.9% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 67.6% / Median: 75% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3%


Almost 30 pp below Ruined Market and more than 20pp above Ruined Library, Abandoned Mine is a pretty clear second place. It's weighted score remains pretty much the same as last year and it gets four first place votes. Abandoned Mine is the ruin where you most often is happy to play, if you have the extra action the coin it provides can be crucial for reaching an specific price point you need, I have already seen lots of games where an Abandoned Mine managed to transform an $7 hand in $8 for a crucial Province buy.

#1 =0 Ruined Market (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 96.6% ▲10.7pp / Unweighted Average: 95.4% / Median: 100% =0 / Standard Deviation: 11.9%

To not much surprise at all Ruined Market gets the first place again and it even had a pretty nice boost of 10.7 pp in it's weighted average. It had a really high agreement between voters as only four voters did not put it in first, being three votes for second and one for third. The reason for this is quite simple, while in a majority of boards I would say that Abandoned Mine is the less bad ruin to have, all ruins except Ruined Market are really bad in 100% of boards. Ruined market is the only ruin where there are quite a few scenarios where it shines, making you actually want to buy it (there can even be a case for opening Ruined Market if it's possible), some games even have players trying to fish for it by digging through the ruins pile just to get to have a chance at buying Ruined Market (hopefully not having to actually buy those ruins). This shows just how powerful +buy can be. On clear engine boards where Ruined Market is the only +buy, a player who manages to snipe a Ruined Market might get a game winning advantage... Weren't ruins supposed to be bad?





Edit: I'll make a disclaimer here, which I think it's important, specially if some more inexperienced player ends up seeing this list. It's just that I tried to be a bit tongue in cheek, and I can see as how it might come off a bit as saying that Ruined Market is an actually good card. That's not true at all. There are situations where it shines and you even end up buying it, which is enough to easily make it the top ruin, but it's mostly an awful card in your deck that you should mostly try to thrash ASAP just like other ruins. In most games it works very much like the other Ruins, where it can give a very minor benefit that can occasionally matter, it's just that in heavy engine games, you should really watch out for Ruined Market, specially if it's the only source of +buy.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 03:19:57 pm by gloures »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 01:57:39 am »
+1

*gasp!*

i can die now.
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King Leon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 04:14:04 am »
0

Although I voted Ruined Village for the last place, there are some more edge cases, especially boards with Library, Watchtower, Jack of all Trades, Cursed Village, Scrying Pool etc. who can just ignore Ruined Village; and Vassal, which turns into a non-terminal.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 08:41:31 am »
+9

You're wrong, everyone can't wait for that Boons and Hexes list!  ;D
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2018, 12:10:23 pm »
0

Vassal, which turns into a non-terminal.

It turns into a cantrip. If it just turned into a non-terminal, it would still be worse than Silver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2018, 01:19:51 pm »
+2

You're wrong, everyone can't wait for that Boons and Hexes list!  ;D

*ahem* Events list begs to differ.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2018, 06:10:09 pm »
0

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2018, 08:03:35 pm »
+1

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2018, 08:12:56 pm »
0

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.

draw to x and variants exist far more than champion or other arbitrarily free amounts of actions.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2018, 08:28:52 pm »
+1

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.

draw to x and variants exist far more than champion or other arbitrarily free amounts of actions.

Is this true? There are like... maybe five draw-to-x cards, right? Library, Watchtower, Jack, Cursed Village, arguably Minion. There are a lot more ways to get a lot of +actions than that, I think.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2018, 08:33:18 pm »
+1

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.

draw to x and variants exist far more than champion or other arbitrarily free amounts of actions.

Is this true? There are like... maybe five draw-to-x cards, right? Library, Watchtower, Jack, Cursed Village, arguably Minion. There are a lot more ways to get a lot of +actions than that, I think.

yes, but in a small percentage of the game with +actions are you so overflowed with +actions that you're freely using ruined library, whereas ruined village works with draw to x a larger percentage of the time.

Also I'd add shanty town, conspirator, magic lamp, horn of plenty... as relevant to this discussion
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 08:36:11 pm by O »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2018, 01:35:08 am »
+1

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.

draw to x and variants exist far more than champion or other arbitrarily free amounts of actions.

Is this true? There are like... maybe five draw-to-x cards, right? Library, Watchtower, Jack, Cursed Village, arguably Minion. There are a lot more ways to get a lot of +actions than that, I think.

yes, but in a small percentage of the game with +actions are you so overflowed with +actions that you're freely using ruined library, whereas ruined village works with draw to x a larger percentage of the time.

Also I'd add shanty town, conspirator, magic lamp, horn of plenty... as relevant to this discussion

this is like the opposite of what happens, there’s like four draw to x cards total. I see two Villages way more than I see Watchtower, Library, Cursed Village, or Jack.. ruined library is wayyyyy better. Ruined Village is definitely the worst. it’s not even close dude.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2018, 01:49:29 am »
+1

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.

draw to x and variants exist far more than champion or other arbitrarily free amounts of actions.

Is this true? There are like... maybe five draw-to-x cards, right? Library, Watchtower, Jack, Cursed Village, arguably Minion. There are a lot more ways to get a lot of +actions than that, I think.

yes, but in a small percentage of the game with +actions are you so overflowed with +actions that you're freely using ruined library, whereas ruined village works with draw to x a larger percentage of the time.

Also I'd add shanty town, conspirator, magic lamp, horn of plenty... as relevant to this discussion

this is like the opposite of what happens, there’s like four draw to x cards total. I see two Villages way more than I see Watchtower, Library, Cursed Village, or Jack.. ruined library is wayyyyy better. Ruined Village is definitely the worst. it’s not even close dude.

And if you consistently see two villages and not another terminal to use it with, in a game where you're already very junked, you're probably overstacking on villages. Whereas pretty much ruined village + draw to x results in the extra card.

There's also magic lamp, conspirator, shanty town, horn of plenty, diplomat, enemy Haunted Woods etc... it's not remotely close to 4 cards or only basic draw-to-X cards in the slightest. Plenty of cards like having an extra card name played or action played. I don't know why you would regurgitate the number four after I already listed half of these in the previous post either.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 01:52:14 am by O »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2018, 03:57:30 am »
0

If you have Ruins in your deck, you need to overstack on villages, otherwise the chances of getting a village with your real Actions is too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2018, 07:51:46 am »
0

...Library, Cursed Village, Jack, Watchtower...

...There's also magic lamp, conspirator, shanty town, horn of plenty, diplomat, enemy Haunted Woods etc... it's not remotely close to 4 cards or only basic draw-to-X cards in the slightest.

And because of those interactions, a card that does nothing but decrease your handsize on play is as high as the second best Ruin? Am I reading this right?

Ruined Library combos with every village in the game (a lot more "combos"), Magic Lamp, Horn of Plenty,etc. Does Ruined Village do all of that?

Or maybe all of this is silly, Ruined Village is objectively the worst Ruin no matter how you look at it, and the list is wrong because Ruined Library is second worst behind Ruined Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2018, 08:12:24 am »
0

the list is wrong because Ruined Library is second worst behind Ruined Village.

It's not. Abandoned Mine is the second worst.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 01:08:45 pm »
0

...Library, Cursed Village, Jack, Watchtower...

...There's also magic lamp, conspirator, shanty town, horn of plenty, diplomat, enemy Haunted Woods etc... it's not remotely close to 4 cards or only basic draw-to-X cards in the slightest.

And because of those interactions, a card that does nothing but decrease your handsize on play is as high as the second best Ruin? Am I reading this right?

Ruined Library combos with every village in the game (a lot more "combos"), Magic Lamp, Horn of Plenty,etc. Does Ruined Village do all of that?

Or maybe all of this is silly, Ruined Village is objectively the worst Ruin no matter how you look at it, and the list is wrong because Ruined Library is second worst behind Ruined Village.

I think it matters whether we are talking about Cultist, Marauder, or Death Cart. I can't imagine wanting half of the mentioned synergy cards in games with heavy Ruins junking where you are struggling to get control of your deck. However, seeing the Ruined Village synergies line up sounds more reasonable when it comes from Death Cart.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2018, 05:03:56 pm »
0

...Library, Cursed Village, Jack, Watchtower...

...There's also magic lamp, conspirator, shanty town, horn of plenty, diplomat, enemy Haunted Woods etc... it's not remotely close to 4 cards or only basic draw-to-X cards in the slightest.

And because of those interactions, a card that does nothing but decrease your handsize on play is as high as the second best Ruin? Am I reading this right?

Ruined Library combos with every village in the game (a lot more "combos"), Magic Lamp, Horn of Plenty,etc. Does Ruined Village do all of that?

Or maybe all of this is silly, Ruined Village is objectively the worst Ruin no matter how you look at it, and the list is wrong because Ruined Library is second worst behind Ruined Village.

I think it matters whether we are talking about Cultist, Marauder, or Death Cart. I can't imagine wanting half of the mentioned synergy cards in games with heavy Ruins junking where you are struggling to get control of your deck. However, seeing the Ruined Village synergies line up sounds more reasonable when it comes from Death Cart.

I think actually Marauder is the bigger culprit, it's a reasonably frequent decision when theirs some form of trashing/incentive on the board to ignore marauder. Death Cart has the most synergies but more often the right decision is to just not buy death cart.

Really though the difference between the bottom 4 ruins is marginal in almost all games... the discussion here is more of semantic interest than real gameplay. Ruined Market can be crucial because of +buy, all the other four are almost always bad and the difference between them causes a difference in outcomes in a game only a tiny percentage of the time.

Which is why I find it funny when people drop the "it's objectively correct" as if that's a useful method of discussion when we're comparing 0.01 and 0.011 values to the deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2018, 07:34:03 pm »
+1

If you have Ruins in your deck, you need to overstack on villages, otherwise the chances of getting a village with your real Actions is too low.
Isn't your odds of drawing two real terminals without a village lower too?  Seems like a wash.

I mean when I try to build an engine through ruins, usually I keep missing 5$ and am buying a bunch of village to gain consistency.  But but if both the village and the power terminal I want to play cost 4$ I don't expect the Village/purchased Terminal ratio to skew more Village than usual, if anything I'd expect the reverse.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2018, 03:06:38 am »
0

I didn't vote in these rankings but I think I would have been one of the madmen who voted ruined village somewhere other than last -- even as high as second.

~80% of games RV is the worst. But for probably 75% of those 80%, the impact of the other ruins not named ruined market amounts to something like "I played survivors once and discarded an estate".

In 20% of games RV thru one way or another becomes a cantrip. That's a hell of a lot better than any of the others (except ruined market, again) realistic optimal scenarios.

A surprising amount of ruins games don't become money slogs in my experience, too, which ups the odds of those scenarios slightly.

You must be confusing Ruined Village with Ruined Library.

draw to x and variants exist far more than champion or other arbitrarily free amounts of actions.

Is this true? There are like... maybe five draw-to-x cards, right? Library, Watchtower, Jack, Cursed Village, arguably Minion. There are a lot more ways to get a lot of +actions than that, I think.

yes, but in a small percentage of the game with +actions are you so overflowed with +actions that you're freely using ruined library, whereas ruined village works with draw to x a larger percentage of the time.

Also I'd add shanty town, conspirator, magic lamp, horn of plenty... as relevant to this discussion

Also, Diplomat and Shanty Town. And, very edge-casey, multiple ruins of same name with Menagerie.

We've come a long way to defend a card on merit of how easily we can put it out of sight.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 03:09:22 am by ipofanes »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2018, 03:59:25 am »
0

If you have Ruins in your deck, you need to overstack on villages, otherwise the chances of getting a village with your real Actions is too low.
Isn't your odds of drawing two real terminals without a village lower too?  Seems like a wash.

I mean when I try to build an engine through ruins, usually I keep missing 5$ and am buying a bunch of village to gain consistency.  But but if both the village and the power terminal I want to play cost 4$ I don't expect the Village/purchased Terminal ratio to skew more Village than usual, if anything I'd expect the reverse.

It should skew more Village than usual.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2018, 06:14:11 pm »
+4

Ruined Village
In almost unanimous agreement the community decides that this is the worst ruin. Only one person did not vote it last (it is noteworthy, though, that this one person managed to make the weighted score be double the amount of the unweighted score). Outside of some edge cases (Conspirator and Peddler being the main ones) this is simply a dead card in your deck, the action it gives is no more than the action you had just spent playing it. This is a pretty deserved position for this card.

No discussion of Bonfire? Some people just want to see Ruined Villages burn!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2018, 06:30:31 pm »
+14

Some people seem to be getting the wrong impression from this list.  Allow me to clarify something: Ruined Market is a bad card.  All of the Ruins are bad.  That is all.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2018, 03:22:02 pm »
0

Some people seem to be getting the wrong impression from this list.  Allow me to clarify something: Ruined Market is a bad card.  All of the Ruins are bad.  That is all.


This is very much true! I added a disclaimer in the end in case it ends up giving more people the wrong impression.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2018, 07:21:29 pm »
+5

So this entire list seems backwards. The Hexes list has #1 mean "most devastating to your opponent" while #12 means "doesn't hurt them that much". Why shouldn't Ruins be ranked the same way? We've always done Ruins in this order, but I've always wondered about it, and seeing the Hexes list backs me up.

You might say "well Ruins are a thing you can buy, so this list includes how often you want to buy it." While true, Hexes are also a thing you can give yourself (Cursed Village). You could even technically track how good of a buy Cursed Village is based on which Ruins have already gone by or not.

So yeah, I think Ruined Village is definitely #1; it's the card that you most want to give your opponent.

*Edit* Just noticed that Awaclus said the same thing in the Hexes thread.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 07:46:44 pm by GendoIkari »
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