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Author Topic: Quick Questions and Answers  (Read 1620 times)

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weesh

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Quick Questions and Answers
« on: January 02, 2018, 03:36:08 pm »
+2

Rather that ask each of my questions as they come up in a new thread, I have created a thread for fast questions.

Here's the first one...

What kind of deck should you be looking to build when there are plenty of engine components, but adding buys and golds threaten to break the engine?

Had a game that included:
village, lab, throne room, werewolf. 
Bandit was the only gainer. 
Skulk was the only +buy.
There was zero virtual money. 
There was good trashing in the form of sentry.

I tried to build an engine that could handle 6 golds, a skulk, and a few green cards so I could double province...and never once drew my deck after adding that many dead draws (I had zero coppers, zero estates, zero silvers, one cemetery).

« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 03:43:16 pm by weesh »
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Asper

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2018, 03:56:02 pm »
0

Werewolf/Big Money?

Nevermind, I didn't see Sentry there.

aku_chi

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2018, 04:08:02 pm »
+6

It seems to me like there's plenty of draw with Werewolf, Throne Room, and Laboratory.  Skulk as the only buy is a limitation, but you could have one in the deck and Throne it when you need three buys (for engine components), but use the Throne on draw later on once you're greening and only need two buys.  Reliability is also an issue, though a couple Sentries should help a little.  If I had to guess, I'd suggest getting more draw than you think you need.  Between playing Bandit and buying two Provinces, you're adding three stop cards per turn, so you would need a lot of extra draw to keep drawing the deck.

Also, there's nothing magical about buying two Provinces per turn.  Especially with Bandit, you want to be flexible with your buys.  With this kind of engine, I'd probably start greening more gradually.  For example: picking up a Province + engine component, or maybe even a Province + two engine components.  I'd want to be in a position to threaten to buy two Provinces, but I wouldn't necessarily do so unless I was ending the game that turn.
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JW

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2018, 05:34:16 pm »
+2

I tried to build an engine that could handle 6 golds, a skulk, and a few green cards so I could double province...and never once drew my deck after adding that many dead draws (I had zero coppers, zero estates, zero silvers, one cemetery).

Getting a Ghost should help with the reliability of the engine, too.
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weesh

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 11:41:02 am »
0

Next Question:

How do you make bonfire good?

It got ranked really highly in the polls, but I pretty much can't figure out how to use it early enough for it to be a good trasher.  the fact that it takes a buy and money each time you use it makes it feel harsh. using an entire turn just to trash two coppers seems weak.  seems like it could only be good with gainers and +buy, and needs support?  any tips or tricks for early bonfire usage? 

I think I've used it so far only to finish trashing once my engine was already working.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:46:02 am by weesh »
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faust

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 12:02:20 pm »
+11

using an entire turn just to trash two coppers seems weak.
Using an entire turn to trash 2 coppers is not weak. You regularly do the same with Steward or Remake, some of the top-ranked cards in the game.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 04:09:27 am by faust »
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markusin

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 12:03:10 pm »
+2

Bonfire tends to be strongest in the opening. So you open Bonfire + something else on T1/T2. Already, you shorten the time it takes to see that something else by having bought Bonfire in the opening.

From there, you maybe get Bonfire one or two more times somewhere from T3 to T6. Do not be too afraid to lose your buys early game because the trashing can easily make up for the lost buy.

You can also open with a trasher alongside Bonfire like Masquerade or Steward or Remake and let the trasher trash the rest of your cards without having to buy more Bonfires.

Basically, trashing two Coppers for $3 and a buy is stronger than it feels like it should be.
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4est

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 12:07:05 pm »
+2

using an entire turn just to trash two coppers seems weak.

Using an entire turn to trash two Coppers is not weak at all, particularly in the opening. 

The thing with Bonfire is it's so fast.  Getting two junk cards out of your deck before the first shuffle provides incredible tempo and guarantees that you'll see your $4 buy on turn 3 or 4.  Very few trashers in Dominion can do that.  Compared with opening something like Steward which won't trash anything until after the first shuffle, Bonfire's power in the early game comes from its immediate benefit.  You pay now, and trash now.  Of course, the trade-offs are that you have to pay for Bonfire each time you want to use it, and it cannot trash Estates, but it more than makes up for it with its speed. 

Try opening Bonfire in your next game with it.  Afterwards, keep an eye out for $3 or $4 turns when there's not much better to buy--getting rid of two Coppers is often better than getting Silver, provided you have another way to build up your economy afterwards. 
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crj

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 12:13:33 pm »
+4

it cannot trash Estates
Corner case: Inheritance. Though admittedly you're then not going to want to trash them...

Even more extreme corner case: Magic Hat, which I've just noticed has awesome synergy with Bonfire.
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Gazbag

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 12:22:21 pm »
+1

Open Bonfire+whatever else. It's best alongside things like Salvager and Remodel which are good at Estate trashing but not Copper trashing. Jack is another good one, but it doesn't have to be a trasher that you open with.

Trashing 2 cards so early is amazing, you end up with a 9 card deck so your turn 3 buy gets shuffled in on turn 4.

It isn't the best for hitting $5 early though, but how much that matters depends on the board.
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weesh

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 12:35:53 pm »
0

Open Bonfire+whatever else...
This is pretty amazing.
I was only ever going to open bonfire if it had really strong synergy with a card I could buy for 4$.

It isn't the best for hitting $5 early though, but how much that matters depends on the board.

Cool. These are exactly the kind of tips I was looking for.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:40:59 pm by weesh »
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Awaclus

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 12:56:25 pm »
0

I was only ever going to open bonfire if it had really strong synergy with a card I could buy for 4$.

It has: you draw that $4 card more often because of Bonfire.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 01:00:51 pm »
+4

Even more extreme corner case: Magic Hat, which I've just noticed has awesome synergy with Bonfire.

stef magic hat on shuffleit when
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ackmondual

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 03:44:50 am »
+1

The tradeoff with Bonfire trashing cards in play, vs. cards in hand is that while it can't get rid of the dead weights like Estates* and Curses, it does let you play Treasures and actions for their effects, and then trash them.  So a "get your cake and eat it too" syndrome.

As an Event, it's always available.  It won't run out, nor can it be embargoed, nor Contrabanded, nor blocked via Delusion

It's a way to "self trash" cards that don't have that feature built in.  You're done with a card that was good early on, but not really needed later on (e.g. Sea Hag after all Curses are out, or Talisman/Quarry when you're done with <$4 cards and action cards respectively)

If you have the "penalty Landmarks" in play...
Wolf Den = Getting rid of a singleton or 2 gets you 3 or 6pts back
Wall = 1 to 2pts back
Bandit Fort = 2 or 4pts back for trashed Silvers and Gold
If you have multiple buys, then even more points back.  In fact, if you're down to Provinces, and there are no other ways to get pts, then Bonfire lets you up your score in this regard.

Also nice if Tomb's in play!



* Inheritance was brought up, and yeah, same thing... if you took the turn to buy and put a card underneath Inh. token, then chances are, you'd like to keep those cards functioning that way.
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weesh

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 04:06:29 pm »
+1

Next Question:

What is the absolute minimum you require to try and put together an engine?

On Burning Skulls "how to base dominion" youtube series, he succeeded in making an engine every time, even when the components were weak.
Is there some threshold where you think "this isn't worth it"?  Like, do you look at a board with a village and a +2 cards component and think "that's enough"?  If the village doesn't even give you a card, and the best you can do is maintain a hand of 5 cards, is it worth the attempt?  Had a game with festival/steward and wasn't able to make my deck do much. 

Bonus: On the occasions you decline the engine, what's the next best thing to look for? 
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Awaclus

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 04:34:40 pm »
+3

Next Question:

What is the absolute minimum you require to try and put together an engine?

On Burning Skulls "how to base dominion" youtube series, he succeeded in making an engine every time, even when the components were weak.
Is there some threshold where you think "this isn't worth it"?  Like, do you look at a board with a village and a +2 cards component and think "that's enough"?  If the village doesn't even give you a card, and the best you can do is maintain a hand of 5 cards, is it worth the attempt?  Had a game with festival/steward and wasn't able to make my deck do much. 

Bonus: On the occasions you decline the engine, what's the next best thing to look for?

Depends on the payload. You don't play a Hamlet/Oracle engine for Gold payload, but you might for Highway payload.
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schadd

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 03:22:30 pm »
+1

What is the absolute minimum you require to try and put together an engine?
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 02:26:29 pm »
0

Next Question:

What is the absolute minimum you require to try and put together an engine?

On Burning Skulls "how to base dominion" youtube series, he succeeded in making an engine every time, even when the components were weak.
Is there some threshold where you think "this isn't worth it"?  Like, do you look at a board with a village and a +2 cards component and think "that's enough"?  If the village doesn't even give you a card, and the best you can do is maintain a hand of 5 cards, is it worth the attempt?  Had a game with festival/steward and wasn't able to make my deck do much. 

Bonus: On the occasions you decline the engine, what's the next best thing to look for?

Depends on the payload. You don't play a Hamlet/Oracle engine for Gold payload, but you might for Highway payload.

Hamlet/Oracle isn't even an engine. The only thing it does is sift.
Festival/Steward at least gives you $. But it's basically a clunky Grand Market for $8, which is a pretty bad deal.

I'd say that in general BM is the main thing competing with an engine. So if there's a terrible engine, but a strong BM enabler (Wharf, Embassy, Margrave, Council Room, Hunting Grounds, maybe Catacombs and Pooka) you should probably go for that instead.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:29:30 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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aku_chi

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 02:28:54 pm »
0

I'd say that in general BM is the main thing competing with an engine. So if there's a terrible engine, but a strong BM enabler (Wharf, Embassy, Margrave, Council Room, Hunting Grounds, maybe Catacombs and Pooka) you should probably go for that instead.

Hunting Grounds and Pooka are not good cards in moneyish strategies, incidentally.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 02:31:52 pm »
0

Hunting Grounds and Pooka are not good cards in moneyish strategies, incidentally.

Why not HG? Because it competes with Gold?
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Awaclus

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 02:54:10 pm »
+2

Hamlet/Oracle isn't even an engine. The only thing it does is sift.

Sifting is all you need when you have Highway and non-terminal +buy.
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traces Around

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 03:25:20 pm »
0

Why not HG? Because it competes with Gold?

Not so much about competing with Gold as not helping to get to Gold because it is so expensive, which makes it slower than, say, Smithy.

Most of the listed draw cards are really bad money enablers because the engines that often come when they are present are usually better than the money. The only terminal draw cards that are particularly better for money are Embassy and Vault, and even with those the money can often struggle.

weesh

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2018, 04:50:03 pm »
0

Next:
What is the ideal density of conspirators in a kingdom that supports getting them regularly powered up?

I've been overbuying them, and finding myself unable to even get to 3 actions, even on strong kingdoms that should rarely have that problem.
Should you goal be to never whiff on them, or something more modest like "at least 90% of the time, I can get these to trigger"?
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JThorne

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2018, 06:59:35 pm »
+3

The trick with conspirators isn't the density of conspirators, it's the density of enablers (non-terminal actions.)

To have two enablers in an average 5-card hand, your deck should trivially be 40% enablers, or less if the enablers can draw cards (33% if they're all cantrips so you've seen 6 cards after playing the first cantrip, or even <20% if they're something like Village/Smithy.) And even then, the math changes, because with only a single Village, you can play Conspirator for coin, then the SECOND conspirator for card/action/profit, which could be all you need. Then there's weird stuff like Vassal and Throne Room that also change the math.

I've never had a significant problem activating Conspirators when it was possible, and when it's good, I also have a hard time imagining overbuying them, because winning the split could be key. In the right kingdom, they're like bargain Grand Markets. Could you be having a different problem? Perhaps not enough trashing? They REALLY like trashing. You want a moneyeless deck as quickly as possible. Oh, and sifting. Man, cards like Warehouse change the math again. You would really like a gainer, and a + buy is basically mandatory given that you should end up with coin coming out of your ears.
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crj

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Re: Quick Questions and Answers
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2018, 10:26:26 am »
+1

Then there's weird stuff like Vassal and Throne Room that also change the math.
In my experience, Throne Room and especially King's Court are game changers with Conspirator. You'd rather have a hand with Throne Room and Conspirator than a hand with two Conspirators. I'm not sure it's even worth trying to win the Conspirator race if you could be buying a 50-50 mix of Throne Rooms and Conspirators instead.
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