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Author Topic: Nocturne Initial Impressions  (Read 12768 times)

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Seprix

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Nocturne Initial Impressions
« on: November 16, 2017, 11:41:30 am »
+1

Okay. Now all of the cards are out. What stands out? What seems bad? Any sleepers? Any duds?

edit: I have given my full Initial Impressions here.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 10:22:32 pm by Seprix »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 12:24:13 pm »
+13

Okay. Now all of the cards are out. What stands out? What seems bad? Any sleepers? Any duds?

You’re just trying to lure us into making statements we will all laugh at in two years.
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Awaclus

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2017, 12:46:33 pm »
+3

Okay. Now all of the cards are out. What stands out? What seems bad? Any sleepers? Any duds?

You’re just trying to lure us into making statements we will all laugh at in two years.

But he's also making them himself.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2017, 12:47:59 pm »
0

In all seriousness, I'm eager to see what people think, both about the non-previewed cards and how our perceptions of previewed cards may have changed in the context of the rest of the set.

Of the non-previewed cards, I really like the idea of Monastery as a new twist on a Remodeler.
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2017, 01:27:52 pm »
0

Did anyone else notice that they changed the wording on Leprechaun? (I think I'm looking at it right) The new wording makes it a little bit more usable. I liked the card a lot initially, but when I tried it online, it seemed really hard to do anything useful with it. What do you all think?
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2017, 01:28:25 pm »
+1

Oh, also, Magic Lamp seems like a lot of fun, but I don't know if it's any good.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2017, 01:28:38 pm »
+6

Den of sin is great. The gaining to hand is a big tempo boost.
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2017, 01:30:21 pm »
0

Okay. Now all of the cards are out. What stands out? What seems bad? Any sleepers? Any duds?

You’re just trying to lure us into making statements we will all laugh at in two years.

LOL so true!
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2017, 01:35:19 pm »
+1

I think Conclave seems really weak and not interesting at all, but maybe I'm missing something.

Monastery will obviously be really strong. It only costs 2; It is essentially non-terminal, and it can trash coppers that are IN PLAY. Obviously, this is not quite as good as chapel, but it can really do some work I think,
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crj

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2017, 02:22:24 pm »
+1

My biggest problem with Conclave is that (at least at the resolution in the rulebook) the art appears to depict just one person, who's not in a private place.
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JThorne

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2017, 02:30:34 pm »
+3

I suggested that Empires was the "eat your vegetables" expansion, providing many, many more ways to get points, including green cards that weren't even in your deck, and often damaging decks for the careless. On theme, Nocturne is the "patience is a virtue" expansion.

It seems to disproportionately dole out cards that do nothing on the current hand but set up for later. The night cards are obvious, giving no immediate benefit and mostly being used to set up the following turn or turns. But it's also gainer-heavy, and gainers generally give no benefit until after the next shuffle. And it has super-powered cards that are difficult to acquire, which are only going to be worth the trouble if they combine with the right pieces.

Because of this, my guess is that it will particularly reward players who have a well-thought-out detailed plan for their deck-building process, and severely punish those who don't. While that's generally the case in Dominion, it's been significantly amplified.

It's the kind of expansion that should make anyone who was thinking about building an adaptive Domonion bot algorithm throw up their hands and give up completely.

I predict having to repeatedly ask members of my IRL playgroup, "What were you thinking? What exactly was your plan?" after a Nocturne-card-related muddle of a deck goes utterly nowhere.

I love it! More skill-testers!

P.S. There will be many kingdoms where I ridicule players mercilessly if they use their wishes for Gold. I can already see it happening when it would be desperately foolish. I'm going to go write some canned insults to have on hand for the occasion right now...
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MattTV

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2017, 02:30:37 pm »
0

I think Conclave seems really weak and not interesting at all, but maybe I'm missing something.

Monastery will obviously be really strong. It only costs 2; It is essentially non-terminal, and it can trash coppers that are IN PLAY. Obviously, this is not quite as good as chapel, but it can really do some work I think,

Yeah... i think for 4, Conclave is ridiculously OP. It basically turns any terminal draw into a mega laboratory with +2 coin and turns every other terminal action into a mega village. I mean you won't get to repeat it with the same actions and maybe have a drawback on durations but that's still a little better than labs.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 02:31:16 pm »
+3

Okay. Now all of the cards are out. What stands out? What seems bad? Any sleepers? Any duds?

Dominion is more ruined than ever before!
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 02:41:01 pm »
+1

I think Conclave seems really weak and not interesting at all, but maybe I'm missing something.
I think Conclave:Festival::Imp:Laboratory (except for missing +1 buy), approximately. Among the 96 $5'ers in the Qvist rankings, Laboratory is 23 and Festival is 58, so maybe this'll be a middling $4-coster?

To serve as the sole village of an engine, it needs multiple different cards that draw. The fact that it doesn't draw a card by itself restricts its use quite a bit. On the other hand, it provides economy while you build up; maybe that compensates for it being a... shall we say wonky village?

Monastery will obviously be really strong. It only costs 2; It is essentially non-terminal, and it can trash coppers that are IN PLAY. Obviously, this is not quite as good as chapel, but it can really do some work I think.
This is not obvious to me.

Trashing is most valuable early. Number of cards gained per turn is low early and high mid-to-late game. The effect of getting to play the copper you trash is roughly comparable to the +$1 from Forager, another non-terminal trasher—unless you can play and then trash multiple Coppers.

I think the best case is something like "play Ironworks to gain a card, buy a card for $3 and trash two Coppers". That's a pretty strong turn 12 to 15 3 or 4 turn, but it's also somewhat unlikely. More likely is something like Monastery, Estate, 3xCopper. Here you buy a card for $3 and trash an Estate; a Salvager or Moneylender would've let you hit $5 (but they also cost more).

I think it'll be a pretty decent trasher; probably somewhere between the better single-card trashers and the weaker multi-card trashers, which is... just exactly among the top ~25% of trashers? Maybe?
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Violet CLM

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 03:01:19 pm »
+2

I don't know how powerful Conclave is, but it looks like it'll be so much fun to use correctly that it'll be easy to buy too many by mistake. It also reminds me a lot of Intrigue for some reason.
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 03:13:59 pm »
+1

I think Monastery is most similar Forager.  In the early game, Forager gives you $0 when you trash Estate, and $1 when you trash copper, and Monastery is the same.  Of course, it behaves differently later in the game.  And there is that Beggar/Monastery combo...
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 03:16:46 pm »
+1

I think the best case is something like "play Ironworks to gain a card, buy a card for $3 and trash two Coppers".

Transmogrify + Monastery seems like a good case.

TM an estate into a Monastery, buy a card, trash 2 things.
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tastor

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 03:18:02 pm »
+1

Monastery will obviously be really strong. It only costs 2; It is essentially non-terminal, and it can trash coppers that are IN PLAY. Obviously, this is not quite as good as chapel, but it can really do some work I think.
This is not obvious to me.

Trashing is most valuable early. Number of cards gained per turn is low early and high mid-to-late game. The effect of getting to play the copper you trash is roughly comparable to the +$1 from Forager, another non-terminal trasher—unless you can play and then trash multiple Coppers.

I think the best case is something like "play Ironworks to gain a card, buy a card for $3 and trash two Coppers". That's a pretty strong turn 12 to 15 3 or 4 turn, but it's also somewhat unlikely. More likely is something like Monastery, Estate, 3xCopper. Here you buy a card for $3 and trash an Estate; a Salvager or Moneylender would've let you hit $5 (but they also cost more).

I think it'll be a pretty decent trasher; probably somewhere between the better single-card trashers and the weaker multi-card trashers, which is... just exactly among the top ~25% of trashers? Maybe?

I think with most Night cards the non-terminal nature is a big plus. You can open Monastery/terminal and not have to worry about collisions. And the fact that you can trash a copper in play means you aren't forced into those awkward decisions of buying a better card earlier or trashing a copper or two. These two properties also keep it relevant into the mid-game where you can play GSSC and buy a Province and trash the copper you played, or do a big terminal draw and still trash stuff.

I'd mostly agree with your placement, although I think it could easily be on par or better than the weaker multi-trashers, depending on the kingdom of course.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 03:18:52 pm »
0

I think Changeling has the potential to be pretty strong—King's Court for $3, <8>-cost or potion-cost cards for $3, seems pretty nice. I'm very unsure about how costly gain-via-Changeling is—it's $3 (and a buy), but it's also a card you have to draw in order to play with your other card (which takes luck), and it takes time before you draw the copy you gained. Probably it's something you aim to do when your engine is just about up and running and it's time to add payload?

The strength of Changeling will obviously be highly kingdom-dependent, more so than your average card. I think it'll synergize well with Silver gainers—Lucky Coin and Masterpiece spring to mind.
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tastor

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2017, 03:25:35 pm »
0

The strength of Changeling will obviously be highly kingdom-dependent, more so than your average card. I think it'll synergize well with Silver gainers—Lucky Coin and Masterpiece spring to mind.

Yeah I was curious what the use cases for this aspect was. Noticed right away the Lucky Coin synergy (mostly cause I quickly get sick of LC gaining me silvers) but wondering if there is some other fancy stuff you can do with it. Trader is another interesting one: turn the junk card you're getting into a silver into a Changeling.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 03:36:41 pm »
+1

I think with most Night cards the non-terminal nature is a big plus. [...] Do a big terminal draw and still trash stuff.
Oh hey, I still haven't quite internalized that Night cards are extra-super-special-non-terminal, in that you can't draw them dead.

I would get a Monastery in ~100% of my Smithy/BM games for this reason.

I'd mostly agree with your placement, although I think it could easily be on par or better than the weaker multi-trashers, depending on the kingdom of course.
So something like Chapel > Steward, Remake > Monastery > Temple, Trading Post?

Compared to Sentry, I think Monastery is... very different.

And the fact that you can trash a copper in play means you aren't forced into those awkward decisions of buying a better card earlier or trashing a copper or two.
True; something it has in common with Forager and trash-from-deck cards (Sentry, Lookout, Loan, Doctor). Of these, it's probably most similar to Forager.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2017, 03:54:44 pm »
0

I think the best case is something like "play Ironworks to gain a card, buy a card for $3 and trash two Coppers".

Transmogrify + Monastery seems like a good case.

TM an estate into a Monastery, buy a card, trash 2 things.

Or, staying in Nocturne: substitute Cobbler for Transmogrify.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2017, 04:10:29 pm »
0

The strength of Changeling will obviously be highly kingdom-dependent, more so than your average card. I think it'll synergize well with Silver gainers—Lucky Coin and Masterpiece spring to mind.

Yeah I was curious what the use cases for this aspect was. Noticed right away the Lucky Coin synergy (mostly cause I quickly get sick of LC gaining me silvers) but wondering if there is some other fancy stuff you can do with it. Trader is another interesting one: turn the junk card you're getting into a silver into a Changeling.

I think it's neat with cards where you want the on-buy or on-gain effect, but don't necessarily want the card itself.

Like Mint. Buy it for the trashing effect, then get a Changeling instead and use that to gain something useful.

Or Border Village; yeah, a spending $6 and getting a $5-card and a village is nice, but getting two $5-cards (one delayed a bit) might be nicer. Or, for recursive fun: grab one Border Village for real so you can gain others with Changeling; turn the new Border Villages into Changelings while grabbing $5-cards, and use the Changelings to get more Border Villages so you can get more $5-cards...
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Skumpy

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2017, 04:34:05 pm »
+1

After one League Match with them:

Bard seems really bad. I'm not even sure it passes the Silver test.


On the other hand, Silver/terminalSilver + Night Watchman on a 4/3 guarantees a $6 on turn 3, which is really nice (I still lost that game).
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tastor

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2017, 05:13:58 pm »
+1

Oh hey, I still haven't quite internalized that Night cards are extra-super-special-non-terminal, in that you can't draw them dead.

I would get a Monastery in ~100% of my Smithy/BM games for this reason.

Oh absolutely. I feel like my entire morning was looking at cards and thinking: "Den of Sin...why is this worth $5 when it's just half of a Wharf?...ohhhh because it can't be drawn dead!"

It's kind of amusing having the same revelation repeatedly.

Quote
So something like Chapel > Steward, Remake > Monastery > Temple, Trading Post?

Hrmmm yeah that seems a good initial estimate.
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