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Author Topic: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion  (Read 1551 times)

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ben_king

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 03:28:08 pm »
0

People on Board Game Geek are talking about engines being better than Big Money. (Aware of 5000ft plateau.)

Does this actually happen?
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BBL

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 06:42:40 am »
0

As someone stuck around the 5000ft line, I would apreciate a few more words and /or excplicit examples for the topics mentioned at 7k feet (winning splits, PPR, endgame control, shuffle control, deck tracking, deck tempo).

I also feel that incorporating your opponent's strategy ino your own play is another plateau that sits somewhere between 3k and 5k foot. You learn quite early on that you need to win an important split or that you should react to your opponent's garden rush.

What happens at 7k feet is that good players also study the opponent's tactics, like if causing a reshuffle would help or hinder them.

I also like ConMan's suggestion for subheadlines a lot.
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KingPeter

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2017, 11:02:33 pm »
+2

Somewhere in the 7000 range is knowing where certain decks and deck matchups are going to end up at the end of the game.  Hearing someone say, "This game will take 11-13 turns" always blows me away.
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Seprix

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2017, 11:23:31 pm »
+2

Post 10k: You understand the intricacies of kingdoms, but are now aware of mistakes you or opponent are making despite recognizing those intricacies and able to be critical of your plays.

Post 30k: Screw all of that and play with Philosopher's Stone
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Seprix

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2017, 11:24:34 pm »
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Somewhere in the 7000 range is knowing where certain decks and deck matchups are going to end up at the end of the game.  Hearing someone say, "This game will take 11-13 turns" always blows me away.

Serious talk, a good benchmark for your strategy is about 16 turns (if not less) without attacks. If you cannot end the game by then you're probably doing it wrong.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 02:34:04 am »
+1

Somewhere in the 7000 range is knowing where certain decks and deck matchups are going to end up at the end of the game.  Hearing someone say, "This game will take 11-13 turns" always blows me away.

Like, have you played with Governor? :)
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 06:59:02 pm »
+1

Somewhere in the 7000 range is knowing where certain decks and deck matchups are going to end up at the end of the game.  Hearing someone say, "This game will take 11-13 turns" always blows me away.

Serious talk, a good benchmark for your strategy is about 16 turns (if not less) without attacks. If you cannot end the game by then you're probably doing it wrong.

I took this post as a comment on being able to accurately assess a kingdom rather than disbelief that a particular game could be over that quickly.

In other words, it's impressive that someone could look at a board and say: "Yep, this game will take X-Y turns".
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meandering mercury

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2017, 11:46:01 pm »
+1

Somewhere in the 7000 range is knowing where certain decks and deck matchups are going to end up at the end of the game.  Hearing someone say, "This game will take 11-13 turns" always blows me away.

This isn't as hard as it sounds, and I think has something to do with how long you've been playing Dominion and reading the forums. These numbers came up more in the early days when Big Money was more prevalent.

Big Money only, no attacks: 4 provinces in 17 turns
Smithy only: 4 provinces in 14 turns
Moderately strong engine: 4 provinces in ~13 turns, plus endgame control
Super powerful engine: 11 turns

An example of a "super powerful engine" is the HoP megaturn game posted on the main DS webpage, Annotated Game #9 at https://dominionstrategy.com/2012/01/20/guest-article-annotated-game-9/. Very few games go faster than 11 turns. So someone saying "11-13 turns" is saying that there is a LOT of engine potential on the board and things will go fast. If the engine is weak, it'll be 14-15 turns unless there is duchy dancing.

These numbers also illustrate why Big Money is such a plateau, and why the entire dominion community was "stuck" on BM for multiple years. On many boards with an OK BM enabler (many cards are at least as good as Smithy) and no attacks, the line between great BM play and great engine play is razor thin: one or two turns. Past that, the BM player has 5 provinces and the engine needs 4 duchies to compensate. It's hard to play engines that well, but it's easy to play BM that well.
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josh56

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2017, 12:47:19 am »
0

Somewhere in the 7000 range is knowing where certain decks and deck matchups are going to end up at the end of the game.  Hearing someone say, "This game will take 11-13 turns" always blows me away.

This isn't as hard as it sounds, and I think has something to do with how long you've been playing Dominion and reading the forums. These numbers came up more in the early days when Big Money was more prevalent.

Big Money only, no attacks: 4 provinces in 17 turns
Smithy only: 4 provinces in 14 turns
Moderately strong engine: 4 provinces in ~13 turns, plus endgame control
Super powerful engine: 11 turns

An example of a "super powerful engine" is the HoP megaturn game posted on the main DS webpage, Annotated Game #9 at https://dominionstrategy.com/2012/01/20/guest-article-annotated-game-9/. Very few games go faster than 11 turns. So someone saying "11-13 turns" is saying that there is a LOT of engine potential on the board and things will go fast. If the engine is weak, it'll be 14-15 turns unless there is duchy dancing.

These numbers also illustrate why Big Money is such a plateau, and why the entire dominion community was "stuck" on BM for multiple years. On many boards with an OK BM enabler (many cards are at least as good as Smithy) and no attacks, the line between great BM play and great engine play is razor thin: one or two turns. Past that, the BM player has 5 provinces and the engine needs 4 duchies to compensate. It's hard to play engines that well, but it's easy to play BM that well.
All of this simultator stuff becoems moot when Attack cards or alternative sources of VPs are present Kingdom. Which is the case more often than not, especially when you play with Empires.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Common Skill "Plateaus" in Mastering Dominion
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2017, 03:54:31 pm »
0

[I'm] thinking about putting a link to the game where Counting House beat Mountebank, anybody have a link?

The KDC thread is at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11100.0

A video of the game is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi-olliYvWM&list=PLRTqbp6RCzFBaGbUHDTKoKlYsM7RjUAWx&index=5
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