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Author Topic: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?  (Read 2146 times)

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Kirian

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Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« on: June 27, 2017, 03:04:48 pm »
0

So I don't mean a bad play: buying a Silver when you have plenty, buying too many terminals, etc.  Or even something normally dumb but situationally useful, like buying Coppers.  I mean things like:

Not revealing a Moat to an attack when the attack will hurt you (or Bane to Young Witch)
Not revealing a Province when an opponent plays Tournament
Not revealing Horse Traders to a discard attack when discarding won't help you
Intentionally buying Alms while treasures are in play (not just a misclick)
Playing an Outpost on an Outpost turn

That is, things that even Lord Rattington ought to know not to do.

Now there are some where the edge cases are obvious:

Not revealing Tunnel when you discard it: You don't want the Gold pile to run out
Not revealing a block card to an opponent's Gladiator: You want that fifth Gladiator discarded so you can buy Fortune next turn

I'm not usually persuaded by the "not giving opponents information" argument; revealing a Province just doesn't tell them much about your hand, even in a Tournament game.

Anyone who can add to the list of "ridiculous" plays, or has an edge case for them?
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Skumpy

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 03:16:25 pm »
0

Not revealing moat: Speed up/Force pile-out with curses
Not revealing province(or horse traders): Prevent (or enable) a +2 actions Diplomat. Extreme edge case for tournament: Limiting Library options (say they're trying to find 3 golds, but tournament makes them draw a dead action).
Playing Outpost on Outpost: The usual Peddler/Conspirator improving. Or Diplomat.

Intentional Alms: I have no clue....
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 03:29:15 pm »
0

Intentional Alms is really edge-casey. Like this: For some reason, you want your opponent to think you don't have enough buys to end the game, so that he does something stupid. Like, buy Alms then Villa, play Governor and hope that your opponent trashes the wrong card. Something like that.

Not revealing Horse Traders: You know there is a cantrip on top of your deck, and you have two Golems in hand.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 03:54:16 pm »
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Playing an Outpost on an Outpost turn

Peddler, Emporium or Conspirator (assuming extra actions).

How about naming the only Victory card in your deck for Rebuild?
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xyz123

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2017, 04:00:34 pm »
+2

Menagerie might answer some.

You don't reveal Moat to a discard attack so you can discard duplicates.
Not revealing Horse Traders as you know the top card is a duplicate of something in your hand.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 04:02:47 pm »
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I'm not usually persuaded by the "not giving opponents information" argument; revealing a Province just doesn't tell them much about your hand, even in a Tournament game.

It does tell them quite a lot actually. It means you have one dead card in your hand and it also means you only need a Tournament to gain a Duchy in addition to whatever you're buying. Both of these can be crucial factors for PPR considerations.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2017, 04:03:13 pm »
0


How about naming the only Victory card in your deck for Rebuild?

The only victory card in your deck is Tunnel and you want to run the Gold pile. How you would get in such a situation though I have no idea.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 04:37:47 pm »
+1


How about naming the only Victory card in your deck for Rebuild?

The only victory card in your deck is Tunnel and you want to run the Gold pile. How you would get in such a situation though I have no idea.

Or: there's 1 Province left, you don't want to trigger end-game, but you need the Rebuild played for action-counting or hand-size.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 05:41:50 pm »
0

Not revealing a Moat to an attack when the attack will hurt you (or Bane to Young Witch)

Discard attacks in anticipation of Menagerie or draw to X (e.g. Jack). I've allowed Pirate Ship to attack to intentionally trash Coppers. Margrave when one card will save a completely dead hand. Soothsayer when I want the card really badly. Haunted Woods when I want to take advantage of the top-decking.

Any attack you want to take, really. There are so many reasonable things here that when they apply you are probably not even going to be buying Moat in the first place. Which makes them edge-cases with optimal play, I guess, because you have to actually have a Moat in your hand, not just in the kingdom.

Quote
Not revealing a Province when an opponent plays Tournament

I have done this exactly one time years ago to trigger a bad reshuffle for my opponent.

Quote
Not revealing Horse Traders to a discard attack when discarding won't help you

Haven't done this, but not triggering a bad reshuffle could be a valid reason.

Quote
Anyone who can add to the list of "ridiculous" plays, or has an edge case for them?

Not triggering a reshuffle is usually a good reason to do something strange. Presence of Events/Landmarks is another ("you bought a Curse?!"). Outside of that....

Playing Possession on a Possession turn because your hand is junk and you want it discarded (a very expensive, round-a-bout Guide).

Playing but not discarding a Treasure for Stables, not trashing for Spice Merchant, etc. when you have a valid treasure because you need another Action in play and you need the Treasure to buy something (e.g. Emporium, Horn of Plenty).


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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 06:29:06 pm »
+16

Intentional Alms is really edge-casey. Like this: For some reason, you want your opponent to think you don't have enough buys to end the game, so that he does something stupid. Like, buy Alms then Villa, play Governor and hope that your opponent trashes the wrong card. Something like that.

you have two buys $4 and you want that Messenger but not the trigger.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:57 pm »
+2

Intentional Alms is really edge-casey. Like this: For some reason, you want your opponent to think you don't have enough buys to end the game, so that he does something stupid. Like, buy Alms then Villa, play Governor and hope that your opponent trashes the wrong card. Something like that.

you have two buys $4 and you want that Messenger but not the trigger.

In this case you could still generally not play your treasures and get Alms for the Messenger, thought you might have had to play a Crown or played treasures to buy something out of BM before, or something else and then your example would work perfectly...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:43:30 pm by gloures »
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 09:34:02 pm »
+1

I've played a game where I didn't discard a Curse to my opponent's Mountebank so that I could trash the Curse with Junk Dealer instead of a Silver/Gold/VP-card towards the end of the game (not sure if Curses were already piled out). Maybe that seems obvious when you are in that situation yourself, but not blocking Mountebank with your Curse sounds pretty edge-casey.

There was also a game where I did not play Possession because I knew my opponent triggered a really bad reshuffle and I wanted to delay my opponent's recovery reshuffle.
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Marcory

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2017, 05:22:06 am »
+1

Why would you not reveal a Province to an opponent's Tournament?

I can think of one edge case. Three player game without +buy other than Princess, which is already gone. Thanks to the Pillage that you played, you know that your active opponent (Bob) has $7 and no draw other than Tournament,  while the other player (Sue) has $8. Bob is 9 points behind you and Sue is 5 points behind you. If you don't reveal Province, Bob can gain a Duchy and buy the last Province so that you and Bob tie and Sue loses.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 05:23:59 am by Marcory »
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Sharajat

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2017, 12:10:42 pm »
0

Not revealing a Moat: Thief and Pirate Ship spring to mind immediately. 
Not revealing a Province when an opponent plays Tournament: Your opponent has five cards in hand, one card left in their deck, and has two terminals and a Diplomat in their deck with no other sources of +2 Action.
Not revealing Horse Traders to a discard attack when discarding won't help you: Your hand is Fishing Village, Horse Traders, Library, Vassal, Copper, and you have a Fishing Village in play.  Your opponent plays Urchin.  You want to avoid drawing so that you can vassal the top card and see if you want to discard it/play it.
Playing an Outpost on an Outpost turn Peddler, Teacher (token on Outpost), Conspirator, Emporium, et al.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 12:13:29 pm by Sharajat »
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terminalCopper

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2017, 01:21:08 pm »
+2


Not revealing a Moat:

Your opponent played followers, you have watchtower in hand. Trash the curse, and in the end your opponent is the only person who gained a junk card.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2017, 03:55:34 pm »
0


Not revealing a Moat:

Your opponent played followers, you have watchtower in hand. Trash the curse, and in the end your opponent is the only person who gained a junk card.

But you could just reveal the Moat and the effect would be the same as far as gaining junk cards is concerned.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2017, 04:04:54 pm »
0

If that's the only curser in the game, that's one fewer in the Supply pile.
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xyz123

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2017, 04:13:33 pm »
+3


Not revealing a Moat:

Your opponent played followers, you have watchtower in hand. Trash the curse, and in the end your opponent is the only person who gained a junk card.

But you could just reveal the Moat and the effect would be the same as far as gaining junk cards is concerned.

Tomb is in play so you get a VP for trashing it.
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xyz123

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2017, 04:26:26 pm »
0

A couple scenarios where you wouldn't want to reveal a Moat to Swindler.

1) You know your top card is a Peddler and the pile is empty meaning you will gain a Province.
2) You know what your top card is and there is only 1 card left with that cost. Gaining it will end the game with you winning.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 03:15:19 am »
0

Not revealing Tunnel for Gold...
Wall means it'll stick you with -1pt
Bandit Fort means it'll stick you with -2pts

In fact, these 2 Landmarks can be reasons not gain Gold nor Silver if it's your choice.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 02:47:31 pm »
+7

How about naming the only Victory card in your deck for Rebuild?
Counting House.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 03:16:17 pm »
0

Not buying Advance w/ Necropolis when there are good 5s?
Not revealing Gold for Encampment?
Trashing an Avanto w/ Sauna's effect?
King's Courting a Beggar w/ 8 Provinces left?

I was just thinking of some for this. Not sure on answers, but I guess that's part of the fun.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 03:28:50 pm »
+4

Not revealing Gold for Encampment?

You want to cover up the Plunders so your opponent can't buy them or you don't want to trigger 3-pile ending.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 03:29:35 pm »
+3

Not revealing Gold for Encampment?

You want to cover up the Plunders so your opponent can't buy them or you don't want to trigger 3-pile ending.
Or wanting to return them for Wall, Wolf Den.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 03:30:14 pm »
+1

Not revealing Gold for Encampment?

You want to cover up the Plunders so your opponent can't buy them or you don't want to trigger 3-pile ending.

Or you're ending the game but want to take away your opponent's Tower points
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2017, 03:33:03 pm »
+3

Not buying Advance w/ Necropolis when there are good 5s?
-Necropolis is the only village.
-You have 7 and want a king's court.
-Want 2VP from museum.
-3 Pile ending setup.
Trashing an Avanto w/ Sauna's effect?
-Wolf Den/Wall
-Want to stop your opponent's rouge from trashing your provinces with Rabble and Bridge Troll.
-Tomb, and maybe you can gain it back.
Quote
King's Courting a Beggar w/ 8 Provinces left?
-Gardens game.
-Tower and Keep
-Travelling fair, get a load of buys.
-Counting House
-Watchtower in hand, trying to run down the copper pile.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 05:55:47 pm »
0

Quote
King's Courting a Beggar w/ 8 Provinces left?
-Gardens game.
-Tower and Keep
-Travelling fair, get a load of buys.
-Counting House
-Watchtower in hand, trying to run down the copper pile.

You trashed your Coppers, but you want to go for a surprise Fountain and end the game on 3-piles.

Also, Triumph for Massive VP gains.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 06:41:02 pm »
0

lol, good ideas. Didn't put a lot of thought into all the obvious answers. Questions are more fun here imo. Necropolis I totally forgot to say in the opening. Be iton a 2, 3, 4, or 5 hand. Probably half or more games w/ Shelters I get have Necropolis as the only Village, that makes it pretty important.

One card I really like is Pillage. How about opening that on 2/5 over Mountebank if there's no trashing? This one I do have a few answers already I think.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2017, 12:14:09 am »
0

So I don't mean a bad play: buying a Silver when you have plenty, buying too many terminals, etc.  Or even something normally dumb but situationally useful, like buying Coppers.  I mean things like:

Not revealing a Moat to an attack when the attack will hurt you (or Bane to Young Witch)
Not revealing a Province when an opponent plays Tournament
Not revealing Horse Traders to a discard attack when discarding won't help you
Intentionally buying Alms while treasures are in play (not just a misclick)
Playing an Outpost on an Outpost turn

That is, things that even Lord Rattington ought to know not to do.

Now there are some where the edge cases are obvious:

Not revealing Tunnel when you discard it: You don't want the Gold pile to run out
Not revealing a block card to an opponent's Gladiator: You want that fifth Gladiator discarded so you can buy Fortune next turn

I'm not usually persuaded by the "not giving opponents information" argument; revealing a Province just doesn't tell them much about your hand, even in a Tournament game.

Anyone who can add to the list of "ridiculous" plays, or has an edge case for them?

Possession: the be all end all of edge cases.

Not revealing Moat? Absolutely you want to discard useful cards every time you will be Possessed before playing. Same with Htrader - make a possessed hand worse.

Not revealing province - every single time.

No Tunnel? Keeping my deck below $8.

Unblocking gladiator? Every time.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2017, 03:25:27 pm »
0

Buying Rats just to trash it w/ a Watchtower in hand?(No Tom lol so easy. Doesn't empty a pile, Rats were full so not even close.

Not revealing Province for Explorer(no Feodum! or Keep:)

Opening w/ two Crossroads?

Butchering a Village into a Port(no Tomb!)
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2017, 03:35:49 pm »
+1

Buying Rats just to trash it w/ a Watchtower in hand?(No Tom lol so easy. Doesn't empty a pile, Rats were full so not even close.

Not revealing Province for Explorer(no Feodum! or Keep:)

Opening w/ two Crossroads?

Butchering a Village into a Port(no Tomb!)

Cost is reduced 4. Convert buys into draw to find more treasure.

Gold pile is empty.

You like losing.

Anything that cares about differently named cards.

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2017, 05:45:27 pm »
+1

Cost is reduced 4. Convert buys into draw to find more treasure.

You would need Villa to play those treasures. Or something like Save or Haunted Woods for there to be a purpose.

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 06:11:22 pm »
+3

For the Rats trashing one, you believe your opponent is going to attack with Rogue next turn. Trashing a Rats is a defence against it.

Opening double Crossroads. You open 4/3. The Landmarks are Bandit Fort and Obelisk (on Crossroads). There is no trashing and Crossroads is the only kingdom card that cost less than 5.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2017, 06:23:16 pm »
0

Cost is reduced 4. Convert buys into draw to find more treasure.

You would need Villa to play those treasures. Or something like Save or Haunted Woods for there to be a purpose.

Good call... One of those things then.

or for some shenanigans, you have a ton of buys, and own some Feodum. You already bought and topdecked a Trader. Do the Rats thing to draw it and then gain a ton of Silver with Copper buys.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 06:24:36 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2017, 06:48:58 pm »
+1


King's Courting a Beggar w/ 8 Provinces left?

I've actually done that. King's Court+Beggar+Artificer is preeetty good. Probably worth elaborating: The kingdom was King's Court, Smithy, Artificer, Beggar, IGG, Duke, Scouting Party and some nonsense; no trashing, no +buy and no village other than KC. Opponent went for the IGGs. The turn after he bought the 10th IGG, I gained the remaining King's Courts, Smithies, Artificers, Coppers, Provinces, Duchies and Dukes.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 10:18:11 am by sorawotobu »
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2017, 02:30:14 am »
0

Not revealing province to tournament is pretty common in 3+ player games - if another opponent reveals, why should you?
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2017, 04:50:51 am »
0

Buying Rats just to trash it w/ a Watchtower in hand?(No Tom lol so easy. Doesn't empty a pile, Rats were full so not even close.


Couple more for this one.

1) You are possessing your opponent. This means your opponent gains the Rats instead of you. If Rats and Watchtower are the only trashers in the game this would effectively be a junking attack.

2) Your engine has stalled. You have more than 6 cards in your hand, at least 8 coin and at least 2 buys. You know the top card of your deck is a draw card. You buy Rats and trash it with Watchtower to draw that top card. You then buy Villa, play it with your draw card start your engine off again.
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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2017, 11:38:01 pm »
+1

For Rats, it could trigger a reshuffle.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

luser

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2017, 12:55:16 pm »
+1

kc-beggar is quite common, for example with triumph games you want kc-kc-beggar-beggar-buy to get hundred point megaturn.
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ackmondual

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Re: Edge Cases: Why Do Something Ridiculous?
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2017, 03:59:06 am »
+1

Not paying off Debt when you can...
You have $2 left and 2 Debt left, but you'd rather hold on to the $2 so you can discard 1 or more Wine Merchants from you Tavern instead.  The +1 Buy, and extra coins may get you more traction than getting rid of that 2 Debt now.
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Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy
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