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Author Topic: The Peasant-Teacher Line  (Read 3156 times)

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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 05:34:26 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?


I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
It's worse then KC'ing a hireling. Disciple would be a or , it's easily on the same power level as prince. Plus it takes a long time to get to.
Huh? Judging the power level of Disciple has nothing to do with how hard it is to get. That's would be the cost side of the equation.
You also might wanna make up your mind whether Disciple is better or worse than KC. Because in that line you say first that it is worse and then that it is better than KC.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2016, 05:36:26 pm »
+7

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2016, 05:46:03 pm »
0

I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
It's worse then KC'ing a hireling. Disciple would be a or , it's easily on the same power level as prince. Plus it takes a long time to get to.
Huh? Judging the power level of Disciple has nothing to do with how hard it is to get. That's would be the cost side of the equation.
You also might wanna make up your mind whether Disciple is better or worse than KC. Because in that line you say first that it is worse and then that it is better than KC.
[/quote]
I was disagreeing with the fact that you said Disciple is about the same strength as hireling (it's not).

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2016, 05:47:49 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Perhaps. But unlike you I make non ad hominem arguments which one can actually debate.
So cut the crap and either contribute constructively or get the heck out of here and deal with whatever you problems you have with me where it started, in RSP.
You make a ton to.

Techincally that wasn't actually an Ad Hominen.
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2016, 05:49:58 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Unlikely. Nobody is wrong about everything, not even a reactionary guy like you.  8)

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
Nope. As usual such unconditional claims are wrong. Disciple can be better than KC but if the Grand Market pile is empty I'd rather have a KC than a Disciple.
Kinda funny that one side in this debate is making these ridiculous absolutist claims and totally ignores the main point of Dominion, the main reason the game is interesting: that the relative strength of cards always depends on the Kingdom.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 05:50:19 pm »
0

Tristan what's your goko username?
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2016, 05:52:37 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Unlikely. Nobody is wrong about everything, not even a reactionary guy like you.  8)

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
Nope. As usual such unconditional claims are wrong. Disciple can be better than KC but if the Grand Market pile is empty I'd rather have a KC than a Disciple.
Kinda funny that one side in this debate is making these ridiculous absolutist claims and totally ignores the main point of Dominion, the main reason the game is interesting: that the relative strength of cards always depends on the Kingdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
I assumed it would be okay to use it since you do a lot.

When I say "way better" of course I don't mean "always better". That's stupid.
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2016, 05:58:19 pm »
0

Nothing like constantly changing what you actually mean and blaming me for it. :D
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2016, 06:00:36 pm »
+1

Tristan your the one who is twisting people's words.
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traces Around

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2016, 06:04:04 pm »
0

Chill. Also, don't delete posts - you should think enough beforehand to be able to own what you say, even if you regret it afterwards.

You will never Disciple a Hireling in a real properly played game. There are really three cases:

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.

Teacher-dependent engine: You need that Teacher as soon as possible. Discipling Hireling early prevents you from getting it, and once your engine is going the argument for non-teacher dependent applies

Ultra-weak board where there is no engine even with Teacher: you shouldn't have a Disciple.

Much better arguments in favor of playing durations with Disciple are Wharf and Caravan.

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2016, 06:13:24 pm »
+20

I don't really know how to say this, but... how about we all try to keep it friendly?
Sometimes people have opinions about cards that are... not yours. They might even be flat out wrong.
Hurray! Ignorance is bliss! Go beat them in a game of Dominion!

Somehow this was about Dominion cards and turned into something personal rather quickly.
Any way we can get out of that again?
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2016, 06:19:55 pm »
0

Chill. Also, don't delete posts - you should think enough beforehand to be able to own what you say, even if you regret it afterwards.

You will never Disciple a Hireling in a real properly played game. There are really three cases:

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.
Gotta disagree, the game was real and we played properly.

There is a gross error: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.

I only faintly recall the game but the Traveller line was used intensively, i.e. there was at least another Disciple or Fugitive in my deck so the opportunity cost of giving a Disciple up wasn't as high as in other games. A perma-handsize increase from 5 to 7 definitely matters without trashing and was more valuable than getting more Action cards.
Again, whether extra Action cards or an increased handsize are better cannot be determined unconditionally but d epends on the Kingdom.
Of course in a thin deck you want more cards in your deck and not draw more cards; in a thin deck Hireling is weak so Disciple+Hireling is weak as well.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 06:21:37 pm by tristan »
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2016, 06:21:04 pm »
0

There is a pretty grass error in there: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.
Not sure if your aware but disciple stays out with the hireling so unless if you are doing trash from play and gain from trash shenanigans you won't get a new hireling per shuffle.
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2016, 06:27:49 pm »
0

There is a pretty grass error in there: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.
Not sure if your aware but disciple stays out with the hireling so unless if you are doing trash from play and gain from trash shenanigans you won't get a new hireling per shuffle.

Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
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traces Around

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2016, 06:45:20 pm »
+3

Quote
I would quote something but since posts disappear seemingly at random it seems kind of pointless

I was perfectly aware what I was typing. Shuffle and turn should be roughly equivalent, whether the deck is thin or thick.

In any case, not Discipling a Hireling does not prevent you from playing the Hireling like doing so prevents you from playing a Disciple in the future.
If the difference between starting with 6 cards and starting with 7 and later 8 is really that great, it seems it would be better to invest in obtaining more actions for greater consistency drawing the entire deck rather than an immediate bit of draw for the initial hand. This is because if you need to start with 8 cards in hand to be sufficiently sure that you can play, say, village and draw, it seems unlikely that playing those cards would also be sure to lead to another set of village and draw, whereas increasing the number of village and draw cards, say with a Disciple, would help both the initial and continuing hands be sure to contain them.

tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2016, 06:52:07 pm »
0

I was perfectly aware what I was typing. Shuffle and turn should be roughly equivalent, whether the deck is thin or thick.
Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules. Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.  ::)
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traces Around

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2016, 10:40:08 pm »
0

Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules.

It's a shame, the best part of the post was after that. I mean, you already knew that, but whatever.

Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.

I believe I already addressed this situation in the third case above, but it should not be often if Peasant is present.

In any case, I am done here until I get real experience that playing Hireling with a Disciple is a good idea, and once I get that, I am perfectly willing to accept that I am wrong, but until then, I am in the majority and so have good reason to believe that I am correct. So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you. Since according to you this is much of the time, the task should not be difficult since I am only asking for one instance.

tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2016, 03:45:36 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2016, 07:27:34 am »
0

Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules.

It's a shame, the best part of the post was after that. I mean, you already knew that, but whatever.

Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.

I believe I already addressed this situation in the third case above, but it should not be often if Peasant is present.

In any case, I am done here until I get real experience that playing Hireling with a Disciple is a good idea, and once I get that, I am perfectly willing to accept that I am wrong, but until then, I am in the majority and so have good reason to believe that I am correct. So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you. Since according to you this is much of the time, the task should not be difficult since I am only asking for one instance.
Peasant, Hireling, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2016, 07:45:17 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2016, 09:14:08 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
Of course you sometimes draw your entire deck but the rule ignoramus made an unconditional claim about Disciple working every turn which is plain nonsense. The mere presence of Peasant does in no way guarantee that you always draw your entire deck. It does, as always, depend on the Kingdom.
Of course he explicitly made that rule-ignoring claim in order to pretend that Disciple works every turn like Hireling whereas it does in fact only work once per shuffle.

This is the underlying reason behind this ridiculous debate: unconditional, utterly preposterous claims. Like that you always draw your entire deck or that you always prefer a higher Action card density over higher draw power. If Dominion were that simple we would not play it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 09:16:03 am by tristan »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2016, 09:29:19 am »
0

Actually Disciple-Disciple-Hireling might have something to it, if I understand the interaction right.
So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
This is the underlying reason behind this ridiculous debate: unconditional, utterly preposterous claims. Like that you always draw your entire deck or that you always prefer a higher Action card density over higher draw power. If Dominion were that simple we would not play it.
You don't always draw your deck, for sure. However in games with Peasant you almost always can draw your deck, so he has a point. Also, higher action density often equates to higher draw power.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2016, 09:50:38 am »
+3

For the sake of discussion it's best to assume every absolute here really means "most of the time". Otherwise, every thread will just degenerate into "but what about this edge case"?

I think the nature of the disagreement is, Discipling Hireling is pretty edgecase-y. Hireling is a card you want to play early; Disciple is a card you don't get early and you get the most value out of by playing often. They aren't really an ideal pair. Sure, greater than zero boards exist where you would Disciple Hireling. Greater than zero boards have no other way to draw deck with Disciple. It's just not most of them.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2016, 10:24:24 am »
0

I can imagine discipling a hireling when I have done all the gaining I want and maybe when drawing is a bigger issue than having sufficient actions?
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2016, 10:33:35 am »
+2

This article needs more details.

Very important skill in peasant games is balancing terminal ratio. You need deck tracking to see when you should add another peasant as soldier becomes fugitive in that shuffle decreasing terminal collision chance.

Also entire chain requires bit more detail as teacher line tends to be faster than page one unless you need to play terminals early. fugitive cycles and disciple probably cycles too if you duplicate draw/sifter. But thunter and hero junk you with treasures slowing you down. As new players underestimate disciples these should be mentioned too, with analogs like that disciple quickly becomes better than kings court as you play card twice by disciple, then third time when you draw a copy which is normal practice in engines.

Second topic is that with junking and no/weak trashing peasant tends to be better than champion. Calling teacher becomes less important factor as with long shuffles it would likely happen in single one. Both enable terminal draw engine in similar way as +action to draw is only needed. But you could improve engine by placing +card to cantrip/village with teacher but no champion.

After lot of junky games I found that page TD engines lose to junker-bm quite often. With only one buy you need to get lot of draw cards that you don't want to play not to skip hero and tempo loss from that will lose you game. So adding nonterminals is better to keep tempo.
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