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[Aleimon Thimble]

So there are plans for new card strength rankings (and maybe also tiers) on this forum, and I'm excited for them already! But they're not quite done yet, so instead, I decided to write about my favorite cards. These are not necessarily the strongest cards, just cards that appeal to me personally. Nevertheless, discussions about them are welcome. It's going to be a top 30 because I got a bit lazy after that, and there's not a lot of interesting stuff to say about all of those middle-of-the-road cards. There are cards I do truly hate, such as Cultist and Possession, and I could write about those, but let's just focus on the good times instead! Yay!

Without further ado, here are the numbers 26-30, and I will slowly move up to number 1 in the days to follow.

---

30. Quarry

I really enjoy cost reducers. Is it because I’m Dutch? It might be; we’re somewhat notorious over the entire world for being cheap and always looking for the best deal. Anyway, Quarry is good for getting multiple engine components quickly, but it really needs +Buy to excel, which can be a bit frustrating. Then again, engines that don’t work out because a component is missing are always frustrating. Spoiler alert: not all cost reducers made it to this list. Bridge Troll is missing, and I suspect that it is because the attack is somewhat annoying to resolve, which makes it fall just outside of the top 30.

29. Goons

It has all the components of an awesome card. Obviously, it’s the single best payload card in the game, and it’s a very cool way to get a metric ton of Alt-VP. The only reason it’s not higher on this list is because it’s a bit too strong. Its presence seriously diminishes your interest in other cool payload cards like Bridge Troll and Merchant Guild, because you’d rather just have another Goons instead. So Goons is a bit too overcentralizing, which is a shame, because it’s awesome otherwise. I kinda feel it shouldn’t have an Attack, that way it would be way more balanced.

28. Saboteur

Yeah. Sue me. I’m probably the only person who likes this card. Interestingly, I don’t like Knights at all; they’re stronger on average because they give resources and don’t give your opponent replacements, but I strongly feel that trashing attacks need to be on the weak side. Saboteur is rather weak, but excelling with weakish cards is cool in its own right. I actually like that it can trash Provinces, because that helps prevent the ability to have your opponent on points lockdown. Nothing worse than participating in a game you know you can’t win.

27. Vault

One of the few draw cards in this list. Most draw cards are rather boring, although they are a welcome addition to engines; it doesn’t feel like you’re doing something very interesting if you play a Smithy variant in most cases. Vault is cool though. It rewards overdrawing your deck and makes your payload variable, and it offers some more difficult decisions at times. I usually dislike cards that give a benefit to your opponent, which is why Council Room, Governor and Bishop will never make it to this list, but Vault is an exception probably because it usually doesn’t actually feel like you’re helping them all that much.

26. Salvager

Time for another unpopular opinion: Seaside is my least favorite set. It’s about as vanilla as the Base set, but at least the Base set gets some love because I really enjoy teaching the game to new players, and there are a couple of cool cards. Seaside almost completely lacks those cool cards. Almost every card that is a bit more complex is clunky (Pirate Ship), overpowered (Ambassador) or just happens to be a card that I suck at (Tactician). Salvager is an exception though, and the only card that made it to this list. It’s a really nice and satisfying TFB card that will make sure you rarely truly regret buying something, as you can always turn it into something else.

[AdrianHealey]

We do not get along dominionwise

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm trying to think of a edge case situation where Scout doesn't make the list

[drsteelhammer]

I'm trying to think of a edge case situation where Scout doesn't make the list

I can think of only one situation: Aleimon Thimble is not Roadrunner

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm trying to think of a edge case situation where Scout doesn't make the list

I can think of only one situation: Aleimon Thimble is not Roadrunner

Maybe Aleimon Thimble still appreciates a good card! You like Scout even though you aren't Roadrunner.

[Awaclus]

Maybe Aleimon Thimble still appreciates a good card!

That's precisely the reason why Scout might not make the list.

[McGarnacle]

Of course we all know what #1 will be.   

No, not Moat

Jester

[drsteelhammer]

Of course we all know what #1 will be.   

No, not Moat

Jester

Wow, you don't know Aleimon very well. Everybody knows it's going to be Herald

[schadd]

schadd's 7th through 3rd favorite cards

7. menagerie
6. village
5. distant lands
4. armory
3. steward


thank you for your time

[McGarnacle]

schadd's 7th through 3rd favorite cards

7. menagerie
6. village
5. distant lands
4. armory
3. steward


thank you for your time

Give me my 3 seconds back!

[Aleimon Thimble]

25. Gardens

I like the concept of Alt-VP cards. They’re not all in this list; I can enjoy a good Silk Road or Duke slog, but I prefer cards that are a bit more flexible in their deck choice. Gardens is definitely flexible though; it’s usable in slogs, rushes and even some engines, especially the ones with ample +Buy. It was also the original Alt-VP card, and I always enjoy the look on people’s faces when I introduce Gardens to them in their second game of Dominion ever. If they weren’t already sold on the game, Gardens will seal the deal.

24. Apothecary

I’m a sucker for the underdog, and Copper is definitely the underdog. Coppers are not as annoying in getting in the way as Estates are, because they give you payload, but then the payload is pretty mediocre to the point that you’d usually rather trash them. Well, if there’s a way around it, I’m going for it. Copper strategies are not always strong, but they are always interesting and Apothecary is clearly the king of Copper strategies. And the deck-reordering is cool if you don’t need to buy a Cartographer or even a Scout to do so. Although Apothecary is probably the best reason to buy a Scout after all. (Is Scout on this list? I’ll just keep you in suspense a bit longer!)

23. Bridge

No card loves Throne Room variants more than Bridge does. I’m thankful that DXV had not yet found out the ‘while-in-play’ wording clause when Intrigue was released, because these Bridge combos would be completely nerfed if it weren’t for its nowadays unusual wording. As the original cost reducer, it enabled a wide range of megaturn strategies (even without Thrones) , and few things are more satisfying than piledriving the Provinces in a single turn.

22. Stonemason

One of those awesome versatile cards. It can be frustrating sometimes if you overlook its presence and then you see your opponent get 2 Scrying Pools by paying 4P or something, and you realized you messed up a turn earlier. Still, even after it’s in your deck there are some interesting choices to be made, like when it is appropriate to trash your valuable engine parts into two cheaper engine parts, or Duchies later in the game. And it is worth it to trash those worthless Estates/Shelters into two Coppers? Who knows man, depends on the board…

21. Fortress

How cool is that? This card will never ever leave your deck. Well, unless you decide to give it away with Ambassador or Masquerade, which you won’t unless you’re forced to. It has so many delicious combos with TFB cards that I just can’t dislike it. Oh, and don’t forget it counters trashing attacks. Other than that it’s a Village, for a while I contemplated putting vanilla Village in the list just because I’m always happy to see it on a board, but it’s not quite interesting enough. Same thing goes for the slight variants like Mining, Farming and Walled Village. But Fortress rocks, no further questions.

[Aleimon Thimble]

No reactions? Ah well.

20. Forge

I find Chapel not very satisfying because it’s so easy to get. Just buy it turn 1, bam. Where’s the challenge in that? Forge is equally powerful as a trasher and can be a gainer to boot, but its $7 cost makes it a challenge to obtain. And those mathematical tricks are always fun. Fun fact: the Dutch translation of Dominion is pretty awful in general, but the name of this card has especially been butchered. They went with ‘Vervalsen’, which does mean ‘forge’, but only in the sense of counterfeiting stuff, not in the metalwork sense. (In case you were wondering, ‘Counterfeit’ has been translated as ‘Vals geld’, meaning ‘Fake money’. Sigh.)

19. University

+2 Actions, gain a degree. Oh, if only it were that simple (as I’m writing this I’m once again procrastinating on my research). University (the Dominion card) gets you a lot of stuff though, and stuff is good, especially the more expensive stuff. Just be aware that you won’t draw your deck with Universities and something like Witches alone; the Necropolis part is rather weak. But that’s fine. Gainers are nice, Villages are nice, this one’s both, so enjoy and relax!

18. Coppersmith

Once again me with the Copper strategies! You’ll see this recurring theme more often in the remainder of this list. Its niche is small, but definitely noticeable; I have completely obliterated opponents a couple of times when they underestimated Coppersmith on a strong engine board with weak trashing. Fun fact: this is the first card I ever bought in my first game of Dominion, I played a full random game with Intrigue only. I remember Saboteur and Swindler were also on the board. Can you imagine that I actually became a Dominion fan?

17. Amulet

I’ve only been a f.DS member for about a year, and I already relish the discussions we had surrounding Amulet. Specifically, the most discussed question from the early Adventures metagame was whether or not Amulet was better than Steward. We did eventually reach the consensus that Steward is generally better, but to this day not everyone agrees how big the differences are. Anyway, Amulet is versatile, I like cards that give you the opportunity to be flexible. It’s the only Duration card on this list (and there are no Reserve cards); I find that they’re often kind of a hassle to keep track of, but Amulet is cool enough that it deserves a spot.

16. Count

Speaking about versatility! Count could very well have been named Jack of All Trades, except that it’s way cooler than Jack since it actually helps you thin instead of flooding you with Silvers. The only negative thing about it is that it kinda makes Mandarin obsolete, but Mandarin was never that interesting to begin with, so whatever. Count joins Baron, Duke, Margrave, Prince and the other Nobles in the Council Room of VIP’s, and he’s having a good time.

[Awaclus]

No reactions? Ah well.

You're surprised that you didn't include any Reactions on your own list of favorite cards?

[Aleimon Thimble]

No reactions? Ah well.

You're surprised that you didn't include any Reactions on your own list of favorite cards?

I'm surprised that I did not see that joke coming.

[mail-mi]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

[Beyond Awesome]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

An almost always bad on-buy. How often do I even went treasures back on top of my deck?

[McGarnacle]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

An almost always bad on-buy. How often do I even went treasures back on top of my deck?

When you buy Mandarin with 2 golds.

[AdrianHealey]

I think Mandarin is an ok buy in a 5/2 opening, tbh.

[Beyond Awesome]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

An almost always bad on-buy. How often do I even went treasures back on top of my deck?

When you buy Mandarin with 2 golds.

In just about any engine, having two golds on top prevents you from hitting key engine components.

[McGarnacle]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

An almost always bad on-buy. How often do I even went treasures back on top of my deck?

When you buy Mandarin with 2 golds.

In just about any engine, having two golds on top prevents you from hitting key engine components.

Well, obviously it is very situational. If you need to hit or something like that, it can be nice. It's niche, but I like niche cards.

[Awaclus]

I think Mandarin is an ok buy in a 5/2 opening, tbh.

It's not very good. It slows your cycling down by an entire turn.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Yay posts!

15. Haggler

After the cost reduction thing, I will now allow you to make fun of my Dutch heritage once again. Spoiler alert: Peddler is not on this list. Anyway, Haggler gives you a lot of cards, and it progressively gets better as you buy better and bigger cards, which is nice. There are times when it requires some more thought, for example whether or not it is worth it to get an extra Hamlet if that also pushes an extra Copper to your deck. Sometimes you forget about this and absentmindedly buy that Hamlet. Oops.

14. Minion

It’s funny though. I usually don’t like monolithic strategies that much; I hate Cultist with a passion and Rebuild is not as bad, but certainly somewhere down there. Minion seems to be an exception and I’m not completely sure why. I guess it self-synergizes into an engine, but not necessarily an engine with Minions as its only components. Also, I like the draw-to-X thing (Watchtower almost made it to the top 30, but not quite; Library falls short of it due to the extra hassle with possibly setting aside Action cards).

13. Merchant Guild

It’s like Goons, but weaker and therefore more balanced. I have called it a poor man’s Goons before, which is not quite doing it justice, quite frankly, because Merchant Guild rocks. A Merchant Guild engine builds just like a Goons engine, except you can add the payload cards maybe a bit later, and Merchant Guild absolutely requires a strong engine to work.  Interestingly, I thought it looked very weak at first, with its ‘Herbalist something something’ look, but I was pleasantly surprised by its usefulness.

12. Golem

I like unconventional splitters. Well, not all of them. King’s Court is too swingy, Procession gives me a headache and Ironmonger is just not very satisfying, so they got omitted. But Golem is just awesome. Oh, the excitement you feel when you’re praying that it doesn’t just hit two terminals. It may be a bit on the weak side for a card that costs $4 and a Potion, but it definitely deserves a place in my heart. Plus, it shares its name with a Pokemon, and I love Pokemon.

11. Band of Misfits

Did I mention I like flexible cards? BoM can be almost anything you want! Well, unless it costs $5+. Or if it’s not an Action card. Or if it’s not in the supply. Or if its pile is empty. But still, it can probably be at least three different things, which is nice. Oh man, I should make a meme out of this. There’s certainly one there, with the whole ‘you can be anything you want’ thing. But I’m too lazy and too busy writing about my favorite cards, so I’ll just leave it to someone else.

[tristan]

13. Merchant Guild

It’s like Goons, but weaker and therefore more balanced. I have called it a poor man’s Goons before, which is not quite doing it justice, quite frankly, because Merchant Guild rocks. A Merchant Guild engine builds just like a Goons engine, except you can add the payload cards maybe a bit later, and Merchant Guild absolutely requires a strong engine to work.  Interestingly, I thought it looked very weak at first, with its ‘Herbalist something something’ look, but I was pleasantly surprised by its usefulness.

I don't see the similarity with Goons except for being broadly in the Woodcutter Buy and Coins family. Goons is alt-VP, Merchant Guild is a card which provides you some Coin tokens in the middle- and endgame. You can usually start with Goons earlier than with Merchant Guild.
While I don't get all the intricacies of Merchant Guild I am pretty sure that it can be a great card in a deck with few Action cards. Sure, using it in an engine where you can play more than one per turn makes the card really shine but with BM hat you can actually buy a Copper for a Coin token far earlier than in an engine due to the slower cycling (i.e. the Copper won't hurt you as often as you draw it fewer times).

[Limetime]

The way you build a deck that can play a bunch of terminal payload is similar. Also they both want the ability to but lot of things in one turn.

[tristan]

The way you build a deck that can play a bunch of terminal payload is similar. Also they both want the ability to but lot of things in one turn.

So does Bridge. Doesn't mean that it has a whole lot in common though with Merchant Guild except for providing coins and an extra buy,

[Limetime]

The way you build a deck that can play a bunch of terminal payload is similar. Also they both want the ability to but lot of things in one turn.

So does Bridge. Doesn't mean that it has a whole lot in common though with Merchant Guild except for providing coins and an extra buy,

In a goons game your goal is to buy a bunch of cards for points.
Merchant guild buys a bunch of cards so he can buy green cards.

[AJD]

The way you build a deck that can play a bunch of terminal payload is similar. Also they both want the ability to but lot of things in one turn.

So does Bridge. Doesn't mean that it has a whole lot in common though with Merchant Guild except for providing coins and an extra buy,

...Bridge has a ton in common with Merchant Guild though! "Cards cost 1 less" and "when you buy a card, take a coin token" are both ways of implementing "when you buy a card, +$1".

[mameluke]

Actually, I think it is similar to Bridge in that it provides something like cost reduction on a future turn (although Butcher can use the coins too). It's not exactly the same, no, but perhaps a similar type of payload.

[McGarnacle]

I was always a big fan of Merchant Guild. The Goons effect with coin token is nice, and can be handy when you start greening.

[Titandrake]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

An almost always bad on-buy. How often do I even went treasures back on top of my deck?

When you buy Mandarin with 2 golds.

In just about any engine, having two golds on top prevents you from hitting key engine components.

Why are you buying Mandarin in an engine game?

[ConMan]

Mandarin has the on buy!!!

An almost always bad on-buy. How often do I even went treasures back on top of my deck?

When you buy Mandarin with 2 golds.

In just about any engine, having two golds on top prevents you from hitting key engine components.

Why are you buying Mandarin in an engine game?

Because Count isn't in the kingdom?

[Aleimon Thimble]

Similarities between Goons and Merchant Guild:

- They give +Buy.
- They give virtual money.
- They have a while-in-play clause.
- They provide you with tokens whenever you buy a card (VP or coin).
- They are best used when you can play multiples of them, because the extra +Buys give you more tokens exponentially.
- Therefore, they are best used as payload in a big engine.

Differences between Goons and Merchant Guild:

- Goons has an Attack.
- Goons gives more money.
- Goons gives VP tokens instead of coin tokens, which is more direct and stronger in general.
- Goons is slightly more expensive.
- Goons can be used in Big Money decks as well, whereas MG is pretty weak in most of those decks (you'd rather have a different terminal in most cases).

I don't think it's a stretch at all to call Merchant Guild a poor man's Goons, except it isn't really fair to MG since Goons is pretty damn overpowered and MG is still pretty okay.

Also, I agree, there are also similarities between MG, Goons and Bridge/Bridge Troll. The latter two are also strong payload cards that are better in multiples and best in big engines, and also give +Buy and an extra benefit. Bridge Troll even gives out a token, but only one and only to your opponent and it's a bad token. Out of these 4 payload cards, I think all of them are pretty cool but I like Merchant Guild best, even though it's probably the weakest.

(next write-ups later today )

[drsteelhammer]

Merchant Guild plays a lot differenly than Goons aswell. If you get four Goons in play, you'll most likely win. If you get four Merchant Guilds in play, your engine just started to do something- rather next turn is the first very good one.

[Chris is me]

Merchant Guild plays a lot differenly than Goons aswell. If you get four Goons in play, you'll most likely win. If you get four Merchant Guilds in play, your engine just started to do something- rather next turn is the first very good one.

Edge case: Villa + lots of cantrip +Buy to use both before and after you buy Villa.

I definitely understand the comparison. I see Merchant Guild as somewhat between Bridge and Goons in power level - though Bridge has a higher ceiling than MG.

[Awaclus]

I see Merchant Guild as somewhat between Bridge and Goons in power level

So you think it's better than Goons?

[Aleimon Thimble]

10. Peasant

When Adventures came out, I liked Page more than Peasant. Now Peasant has easily surpassed his sister in arms (Page is a girl, right?). His storyline is a lot cooler, which is one thing, but his effects are also more subtle. Probably not stronger, but definitely more interesting. Handing out those tokens is a wonderful feeling, it’s such a satisfying way of building an engine. And you’re not sad even if there are token Events, because that just means you can dump those tokens on a single pile and be done with it!

9. Highway

Now we’re really entering the high ranks. Or the high ways. When I see Highway on a board, my heart jumps with joy and I immediately start looking for the megaturn. Of course, you need a ton of +Buy or gainers to make it happen, but it’s there often enough. I already knew Bridge when I started browsing the Dominion Strategy Wiki, but when I found out about Highway’s existence I got especially excited. The cost reduction mechanic is so interesting that it definitely deserves a cantrip with that ability.

8. Jester

It’s the only Cornucopia card on this list. I don’t specifically dislike Cornucopia, there are just relatively few cards that stick out in a positive way. Jester is certainly the one though. It can be a gainer or a junker, and you don’t know which it’s going to be until you play it, but you’ll almost always be happy with the outcome. Well, maybe not in some rare cases where it hits Silver. Jester really lives up to its reputation and its name: it’s just a load of fun pretty much always. A small portion of kudos to McGarnacle for guessing Jester for #1, you were somewhat close. Although I suspect you only said it because it’s your favorite card…

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!

[Chris is me]

I see Merchant Guild as somewhat between Bridge and Goons in power level

So you think it's better than Goons?

Depends how you identify "better". Goons is always at least pretty good. Goons BM is a decently viable strategy. The better of an engine you can build, the more points you can amass with a Goons strategy. It has a pretty high ceiling with Watchtower strategies, but it's somewhat hard to get to those ridiculous 100+ point games, and many middle of the road Goons games become Provinces Plus Chips games.

Bridge is a lot more extreme. At its worst, in a BM strategy, Bridge BM is basically the same as Woodcutter BM. In a moderate engine with limited terminal space, Bridge can be pretty good but not earth shattering payload. In a small number of games (but a bigger number of games than Goons' ceiling), you can do a megaturn, using Throne Room variants or just winning the split with a ton of extra Actions. Bridge then becomes extremely potent, and can be faster at ending the game ahead than Goons, ergo better.

I think if you "averaged" all these games together, Bridge would be worse than Goons though. Goons is acceptably great payload more often, and defines games more often than Bridge.

Merchant Guild has a curve in between Bridge and Goons. It's closer to Bridge's curve, but a bit better at the bottom and a bit worse at the very top. Hope this explains what I mean. I think too often we think of cards in the paradigm of how they work in a near ideal engine, and not in all cases. That's the only way someone could think Bridge is better than Goons. Or you're just being Awaclus right now.

[Awaclus]

Depends how you identify "better". Goons is always at least pretty good. Goons BM is a decently viable strategy. The better of an engine you can build, the more points you can amass with a Goons strategy. It has a pretty high ceiling with Watchtower strategies, but it's somewhat hard to get to those ridiculous 100+ point games, and many middle of the road Goons games become Provinces Plus Chips games.

Bridge is a lot more extreme. At its worst, in a BM strategy, Bridge BM is basically the same as Woodcutter BM. In a moderate engine with limited terminal space, Bridge can be pretty good but not earth shattering payload. In a small number of games (but a bigger number of games than Goons' ceiling), you can do a megaturn, using Throne Room variants or just winning the split with a ton of extra Actions. Bridge then becomes extremely potent, and can be faster at ending the game ahead than Goons, ergo better.

I think if you "averaged" all these games together, Bridge would be worse than Goons though. Goons is acceptably great payload more often, and defines games more often than Bridge.

Merchant Guild has a curve in between Bridge and Goons. It's closer to Bridge's curve, but a bit better at the bottom and a bit worse at the very top. Hope this explains what I mean. I think too often we think of cards in the paradigm of how they work in a near ideal engine, and not in all cases. That's the only way someone could think Bridge is better than Goons. Or you're just being Awaclus right now.

BM is not a viable strategy, much less so when Goons is on the board.

Also, you can almost always build a near ideal engine. Especially when Bridge is present.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Or you're just being Awaclus right now.

Evidently.

[McGarnacle]

Yay! I knew Jester would be there somewhere. +1 for Jester being on the list.

[ThetaSigma12]

Yay! I knew Jester would be there somewhere. +1 for Jester being on the list.

+1 for +1ing jester on the list.

[McGarnacle]

Yay! I knew Jester would be there somewhere. +1 for Jester being on the list.

+1 for +1ing jester on the list.

All Jester-related posts should get +1. How about an F.DS extension which automatically gives posts which contain the word "Jester" followed by a positive adjective +1?

[Awaclus]

Jester is good at not being a very good card.

[tristan]

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

[traces Around]

The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

The very few boards where Pirate Ship is relevant are decidedly not fun to play if both players realize it.

[tristan]

The very few boards where Pirate Ship is relevant are decidedly not fun to play if both players realize it.

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant, independent of whether somebody goes for it or not. With 3 players it is even more interesting than with 2.
Miser on the other hand is not interactive and thus a boring card. Now if Miser had come along before Pirate Ship, in the base game or Intrigue, it would have been fine. But as it is I view it as a fairly bland card.

[drsteelhammer]

The very few boards where Pirate Ship is relevant are decidedly not fun to play if both players realize it.

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant, independent of whether somebody goes for it or not. With 3 players it is even more interesting than with 2.
Miser on the other hand is not interactive and thus a boring card. Now if Miser had come along before Pirate Ship, in the base game or Intrigue, it would have been fine. But as it is I view it as a fairly bland card.

are you exclusively playing 4p+ games?

[NolanA]

The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

The very few boards where Pirate Ship is relevant are decidedly not fun to play if both players realize it.

The very few boards where Pirate Ship is relevant are decidedly not fun to play if both players realize it.

In the old CouncilRoom game analysis, Pirate Ship was the card with the highest "win rate without" in all of Dominion, which suggests that a lot of people are over buying and/or playing it badly.  It can be decent with the right enablers and the right opponent strategy, such as a strong village enabler against Big Money.  For example, Pirate Ship + Fishing Village can beat just about any Big Money strategy, including ones using powerful attack cards, although with a Fishing Village available a lot of people are going to instead choose an  engine that uses FV as virtual coin, which it doesn't fare well against.  I think the key annoying Pirate Ship games are ones with more than 2 players.  Pirate Ship gets more powerful as number of players increases, so it becomes a more common strategy.  If you think 2 players doing Pirate Ship is annoying, you should see games with 3 or 4 .  However, overall I like the card because of the different style of attack, leading to different types of strategies.

[traces Around]

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,

This segment just isn't true. Whether or not Pirate Ship is viable against a treasure-payload engine has nothing to do with alternatives to to treasure and everything to do with the number of attacks going on. If you are playing a treasure-payload engine, a lot (read: almost all) of your terminal space is being spent on draw, meaning a Pirate Ship deck is going to have trouble playing high numbers, either because it can't draw them or it doesn't have the actions to play them.

If it manages to have an effect in low quantity, there is a severe luck disparity in favor of the Pirate Ship player.

It can be decent with the right enablers and the right opponent strategy, such as a strong village enabler against Big Money.

You don't play Big Money with a strong village enabler around.

Multiplayer: Awaclus is much better than me at telling you about this scenario.

[NolanA]

You don't play Big Money with a strong village enabler around.

Multiplayer: Awaclus is much better than me at telling you about this scenario.

In my earlier reply, I mentioned that many would go for a virtual coin engine in this case.  That said, a strong village enabler does not mean a strong engine is possible.  It's far more common than "an extremely rare edge case" to have a strong village in the kingdom without a strong engine that uses it.  The main times I'd play Pirate Ship + strong village in a 2 player game is when there is not a strong attack in the kingdom  (Witch, Ghost Ship, ...) or a strong drawing card to combine with the Village + a good source of multiple buys (Wharf, Smithy + Buys, ...).  Trashing, virtual coin sources, and opponent's opening also has an influence.  I'd link to some example Pirate Ship games, if gokosalvager was up. As I recall, I've won every 2 player game I've played using a Pirate Ship + Fishing Village strategy, which was a good portion of kingdoms in which the combo was possible.

I implied that Pirate Ship was overbought in my earlier comment about the CouncilRoom analysis.  The CR analysis also found that the majority of players bought at least one Pirate Ship when it was in the kingdom.  Having a multiple players buying Pirate Ships is far from "an extremely rare edge case" for kingdoms with Pirate Ships.

[tristan]

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,

This segment just isn't true.

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.

[Limetime]

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,

This segment just isn't true.

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.

If your opponent plays BM and There is a viable engine with villages then you might rek them.

[Beyond Awesome]

P Ship is awful almost 100% of the time. The payload is weak as it takes time to build up. Mandarin which is a crap card gives you $3 right away. You aren't getting any benefit the first few times you play P Ship. As a matter of fact, your opponent is actually benefiting, and usually immensely.

But, hey if you want to play P Ship against me, please be my guest.

[Seprix]

Wow, so much going on in this thread that I completely disagree with. I guess I will give my opinion, because damn it, it's America.



Bridge has little in common with Merchant Guild. Both supply +1 Coin and +1 Buy. That is all. Bridge giving a decrease in cost and taking coin tokens have nothing in common whatsoever. In fact, there's a bigger commonality between Goons and Merchant Guild! When you buy cards with both of them in play, you get stuff for each buy. How much more similar can you even get?

[Jimmmmm]

Both get better the more of them you play in a given turn and make you want to buy lots of cards.

[Seprix]

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,

This segment just isn't true.

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.

Let's look at this logically.

1. Pirate Ship trashes Treasures with each play.
2. Big Money needs Treasures to play effectively.
∴ Pirate Ship discourages Big Money.

1. Pirate Ship trashes Treasures with each play.
2. Engines do not necessarily need Treasures to play effectively.
∴ Pirate Ship does not necessarily discourage Engines.

We have all we need.

1. Engines are the big majority of strategies played.
2. Pirate Ship discourages Big Money play by virtue of being on the board.
∴ Pirate Ship incentivizes people to build Engines.

But is it Pirate Ship that is forcing this choice, or is it that it is a vastly superior engine, even without Pirate Ship?

[traces Around]

Ignore the post above mine. Seprix privately told me that it was stupid before he posted it  .

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not.

Dude. People literally have to design boards for Pirate Ship to disincentivize buying Treasures. Like, yeah, of course it comes up randomly because it can, but the fact that the boards have to be specifically designed to make this the case should tell you that it is not often.

I was really close to writing something about the Bridge/Merchant Guild/Goons comparison that was being made. That one is possibly even easier to explain why each of Bridge and Merchant Guild play more similarly to Goons than to each other, but like, play with the cards and it is easy to see why this is the case.
You can do all the theory you want based on effect but you will lose a lot of games without experience using a card if you try to build your deck around it - and that is even assuming that building your deck around that card is the right thing to do.

[NolanA]

Ignore the post above mine. Seprix privately told me that it was stupid before he posted it  .

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not.

Dude. People literally have to design boards for Pirate Ship to disincentivize buying Treasures. Like, yeah, of course it comes up randomly because it can, but the fact that the boards have to be specifically designed to make this the case should tell you that it is not often.

There is a difference between one person designing a kingdom to have a quasi-golden deck Pirate Ship pin that eliminates every one of the opponent's treasure cards from having to design kingdoms for Pirate Ship to be effective.  In some kingdoms, all Pirate Ship needs to do is grab 4+ coins quickly in the early game and have a way to likely be played 2+ times per turn in mid game.   It won't be an unescapable pin, like the above link, but it can get provinces quickly enough to winm in the right kingdom.   I agree that Pirate Ship is not going to be relevant in most 2 player games and shouldn't have much impact on your strategy, including buying treasures, in most kingdoms.  However, it can be the better strategy in enough games that it should not be ignored.  If you know your opponent is playing a Pirate Ship strategy, it also can influence the best strategy to counter, such as favoring good sources of virtual coins or trashers more than you would in non-PS games .

For example, suppose you are playing a 2 player game in a kingdom that includes Pirate Ship, Fishing Village, Merchant Ship, and Smithy.   Pirate Ship + Fishing Village destroys Smithy - Big Money.   Smithy - Big Money wins against Merchant Ship + Fishing village.  And Merchant Ship + Fishing Village wins against Pirate Ship + Fishing Village (if MS strategy almost entirely uses virtual coins instead of treasure).  The best strategy isn't obvious to me because it depends on what my opponent is doing.  However, if one of the remaining kingdom cards is a powerful attack, like Witch or Ghost Ship, then the best strategy no longer is particularly relevant to Pirate Ship or if my opponent is doing something Pirate Ship related since Fishing Village + powerful attack + ... thoroughly beats all of the above. Instead it more becomes a question of how the other kingdom cards can enhance or build an engine around Fishing Village + powerful attack.  In short, it depends on the kingdom, like nearly every other card.

[traces Around]

Quote of me + 340 words

Shoot, man. I'm not even arguing against your particular point, even if I do somewhat disagree with it.

[AJD]

Similarities between Goons and Merchant Guild:

- They are best used when you can play multiples of them, because the extra +Buys give you more tokens exponentially.

quadratically

[Aleimon Thimble]

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

That's rather presumptuous of you, to assume I've never played with Miser or Pirate Ship just because I have a different opinion than you. (although tbh I do like that there's some discussion on said opinions)

Edit: Oh wait, never mind, I see what you're talking about. Yes, I have played with those cards, in the case of Pirate Ship only online. When I started browsing the Wiki a year and a half ago, though, I had never played with most of the cards and I slowly learned about every card in the Dominion universe. Pirate Ship was the last card I learned about, after a couple of months of browsing.

I do agree that Pirate Ship can be a fun card, because its presence can influence the way you build your deck even if you never actually buy it. However, it's a bit wordy and awkward and on the weak side even in the best case scenario, which are factors diminishing its fun factor to me. Miser, on the other hand, is a slow but potentially powerful payload card that involves interesting decisions at every corner. Once you get 3 or 4 Coppers on the Tavern Mat, you really start to wonder, do I want to put another Copper there or should I cash in already? I don't think it's bland at all.

Similarities between Goons and Merchant Guild:

- They are best used when you can play multiples of them, because the extra +Buys give you more tokens exponentially.

quadratically

Yeah, quadratically. Thanks for fixing that

[Aleimon Thimble]

Wow, so much going on in this thread that I completely disagree with. I guess I will give my opinion, because damn it, it's America.



Bridge has little in common with Merchant Guild. Both supply +1 Coin and +1 Buy. That is all. Bridge giving a decrease in cost and taking coin tokens have nothing in common whatsoever. In fact, there's a bigger commonality between Goons and Merchant Guild! When you buy cards with both of them in play, you get stuff for each buy. How much more similar can you even get?

I'm not from America but I also give my opinions!

Goons and Merchant Guild are more similar than Bridge and Merchant Guild, that's a given. What they all have in common is that they're potentially powerful terminal, non-drawing payload cards that work best in strong engines.

[Chris is me]

grab 4+ coins quickly in the early game and have a way to likely be played 2+ times per turn in mid game.

Just want to point out that the seventh shuffle (the bare minimum four attacks + 2 payload plays could take with one PS) is very rarely the "mid game"; it is at best what, Turn 15? You've already lost by then.

PS is just too slow to work without +Buy and some other method of lengthening the game, and it is just not good enough in 2P. Miser is literally a *pirate ship that attacks yourself* and it's widely considered to be the better card.

[tristan]

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

That's rather presumptuous of you, to assume I've never played with Miser or Pirate Ship just because I have a different opinion than you.

Presuming? You said yourself that you read about the card on the Wiki. ^^
Nice that you clarified your background though and that your opinion concerning pirate ship is informed by play and not by reading alone.

You can do all the theory you want based on effect but you will lose a lot of games without experience using a card if you try to build your deck around it - and that is even assuming that building your deck around that card is the right thing to do.

I never sad that Pirate Ship is a good card (you are the one with the extreme opinion that Pirate Ship is always bad without taking account that player count and Kingdom can very well make Pirate Ship a decent card) or that it should make you NOT buy Treasure at all.
What I said is that the presence of Pirate Ship always DISINCENTIVIZES you (of course not totally) from buying Treasure (just like the e.g. presence of a junker makes trashers even more valuable or just like the presence of Knights makes buying 2s a tiny bit better). Even if the guy who buy Pirate Ship loses he might trash some Silvers and Gold of yours.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Presuming? You said yourself that you read about the card on the Wiki. ^^
Nice that you clarified your background though and that your opinion concerning pirate ship is informed by play and not by reading alone.

Hence my later addition to that post.

---

Time for the penultimate write-up!

6. Counting House

Oh man. I really did my best for you, dear Counting House. I really tried to prove that you’re strong, I really tried to find arguments for that. But you’re forgettable more often than not and that’s sad, because you’re pretty damn cool. I tried a Counting House cage match against Lord Bottington and lost more often than I’m proud to acknowledge. Still, at the risk of sounding like Roadrunner and his Scout idolatry, I feel it shouldn’t be dead last in the Qvist rankings. There should be at least a handful of $5 cards that are worse. Pretty please? Help me fight for its redemption in the next installment!

5. Throne Room

Simple but sweet. By far the coolest card from the Base set, because it powers up so many of the cooler earlier cards, without becoming a bit broken in the process (I’m looking at you, KC). From Mine to Bridge to Coppersmith, fistfuls of cards really enjoy a Throne Room boost to bring out their full potential. Throne Room is kind of like the perfect support act for your favorite band. You went to see Nightwish and then got blown off your feet from a stunning performance by Amorphis. Something like that. I’m not sure which card is Nightwish in this simile to be honest, just use your imagination, people!

4. Feodum

I’m pretty sure I’ve claimed a couple of times before that Feodum is my favorite card. I change my mind sometimes, okay? There are several very awesome cards. Feodum is combolicious though. On some boards it’s gonna be a mostly dead card, but any Silver gainer and you suddenly need a very strong engine to compete with a simple Feodum/Silver gainer strategy. I can’t even count the times on one hand where an opponent underestimated this very simple idea and got slaughtered. Good times.

[Seprix]

Counting House can be really nice in a Scrying Pool deck with discard for benefit, such as Hamlet, Oasis, and Storeroom. I did that once, to great success.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Counting House can be really nice in a Scrying Pool deck with discard for benefit, such as Hamlet, Oasis, and Storeroom. I did that once, to great success.

Counting House has a couple of really, really cool niches. The Travelling Fair combo is bonkers, of course, and good sifting or discard-for-benefit can help Counting House work in an engine. Slogs on Colony boards also work, for example as a counter to Mountebank. It's too bad that it's only usable on like 10% of all the boards. But if it's usable, it's often the star of the show. I guess that's why I like it so much.

[NolanA]

grab 4+ coins quickly in the early game and have a way to likely be played 2+ times per turn in mid game.

Just want to point out that the seventh shuffle (the bare minimum four attacks + 2 payload plays could take with one PS) is very rarely the "mid game"; it is at best what, Turn 15? You've already lost by then.

PS is just too slow to work without +Buy and some other method of lengthening the game, and it is just not good enough in 2P. Miser is literally a *pirate ship that attacks yourself* and it's widely considered to be the better card.

In my earlier posts, I've emphasized a way to play Pirate Ship multiple times per turn, such as combining with a strong village, which does much better than above in kingdoms where you'd want to play PS. To confirm, I wrote a sim for this case.  The sim found that Pirate Ship + Fishing Village vs a decent strategy that emphasizes money typically reached 4+ coins around turn 8.  Sims had an average game length of ~16 turns (assuming no opponent attacks or trashing), with Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.   Pirate Ship soundly won in all such simulations of kingdoms/opponents that meet these criteria. 

The game length increased in other kingdoms with opponent attacks, trashing, or emphasizing VC.  For example, Pirate Ship + Fishing Village vs Smithy/Salvager + Fishing Village was an interesting case.  If the Smithy/Salvager plays with a strategy that emphasizes virtual coins by only purchasing 1 Gold in treasure (no silvers unless FV runs out) and waits for $13 in deck for the first buy, then the game lasts an average ~20 turns and Pirate Ship had a 71% win rate.  However, if the Smithy/Salvager player tries to speed up the game by buying provinces any time he has 8+ coins, then the game lasted an average of ~17 turns and Smithy/Salvager had a 54% win rate.  If Pirate Ship modifies usual strategy to compensate for the modified fast game opponent strategy, then Pirate Ship wins the majority again.  Smithy/Salvager could further modify... and so on... it can lead to some interesting strategy decisions.  The games where Pirate Ship + strong village failed in my sims are the ones where you'd expect, which usually involved  kingdoms with some combination of the following:

1.  A strong attack, particularly cursing or hand size
2.  A strong source of at least +2 virtual coins (played multiple times, with the village)
3.  Possibility of a draw full deck type engine that includes multiple buys
4.  Fast early game treasure trashing

[Awaclus]

Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.

Smithy/BM is faster than that and Smithy/BM is still super bad. It's also noteworthy that Smithy/BM doesn't help your opponent by removing bad cards from their deck.

[NolanA]

Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.

Smithy/BM is faster than that and Smithy/BM is still super bad. It's also noteworthy that Smithy/BM doesn't help your opponent by removing bad cards from their deck.

Smithy/BM is not faster than that when playing against a Pirate Ship opponent who is stealing his treasure (Pirate Ship does not help Smithy/BM opponent).   In my earlier sim, Pirate Ship + FV had a ~80% win rate over Smithy/BM.    The same is true for numerous other strategies that emphasize treasure.  Also note that 4+ Provinces can include more than 4.    I'm not saying Pirate Ship is a strong card, just that that it can be important with the right kingdom/opponent, and this situation comes up often enough that it should not be ignored.

[Awaclus]

Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.

Smithy/BM is faster than that and Smithy/BM is still super bad. It's also noteworthy that Smithy/BM doesn't help your opponent by removing bad cards from their deck.

Smithy/BM is not faster than that when playing against a Pirate Ship opponent who is stealing his treasure (Pirate Ship does not help Smithy/BM opponent).   In my earlier sim, Pirate Ship + FV had a ~80% win rate over Smithy/BM.    The same is true for numerous other strategies that emphasize treasure.  Also note that 4+ Provinces can include more than 4.

It doesn't matter what its win rate is over Smithy/BM because nobody plays Smithy/BM.

[NolanA]

It doesn't matter what its win rate is over Smithy/BM because nobody plays Smithy/BM.

You compared it to Smithy/BM, so my reply also compared it to Smithy/BM.  If "nobody plays Smithy/BM", then why bother including it in the reply?  That said, plenty do play Smithy/BM in games with fewer expansions, which are the games where Smithy has the highest frequency of appearing as a kingdom card.  In the base game, Smithy/BM (or variants) are played and are a desirable strategy in a good portion of games.

[Awaclus]

You compared it to Smithy/BM, so my reply also compared it to Smithy/BM.  If "nobody plays Smithy/BM", then why bother including it in the reply?

Because that's the point. A strategy that nobody plays is still a better strategy than Pirate Ship.

[NolanA]

Because that's the point. A strategy that nobody plays is still a better strategy than Pirate Ship.

"Better than Pirate Ship", yet it only has a 14% win rate against Pirate Ship + FV in my earlier example.  It's not a simple better than or worse than relationship.  It depends on both the kingdom and opponent's strategy.  There is a time and place for both strategies.

[McGarnacle]

We all know in our heart of hearts how great Counting House is. #JusticeforCountingHouse

[Burning Skull]

Pirate Ship is very strong if your opponent relies on Copper too much.

[Beyond Awesome]

Copper is OP

[traces Around]

Pirate Ship is very strong if your opponent relies on Copper too much.

This should be appreciated for its actual truth rather than just because it sounds funny.

[2.71828.....]

Conversations about pirate ship have been had before.

I like this quote (of a quote):

As theory famously put it:

"Every Dominion player tends to pass through four distinct and recognizable phases with respect to Pirate Ship, otherwise known as the What, Wow, Why, and Hey … phases.

What is the point of this card?
Wow, this card is unstoppably strong!
Why do I keep losing with Pirate Ship?
Hey, Pirate Ship is actually pretty bad …"

But more on topic, I really enjoy being able to use miser. It's a cool card

[Awaclus]

"Better than Pirate Ship", yet it only has a 14% win rate against Pirate Ship + FV in my earlier example.  It's not a simple better than or worse than relationship.  It depends on both the kingdom and opponent's strategy.  There is a time and place for both strategies.

Yeah, there is a time and place for Pirate Ship + FV when your opponent is going for Smithy/BM and there is a time and place for Smithy/BM never.

[NolanA]

Yeah, there is a time and place for Pirate Ship + FV when your opponent is going for Smithy/BM and there is a time and place for Smithy/BM never.

As mentioned in my earlier reply, the time and place I'd list for Pirate Ship + Strong Village combo in a 2 player game is generally when your opponent is doing something money sensitive without strong attacks, which includes far more than just Smithy / BM.  I'd generally open PS/FV and assume my opponent is going to do something money sensitive without strong attacks when the kingdom meets the criteria below:

1.  No strong attacks in kingdom, particularly cursing or hand size (Witch, Sea Hag, Ghost Ship, ...)
2.  Can't make a good draw your full deck type engine that includes source of multiple buys (Wharf, Smithy + Market/Festival/Salvager/...)
3.  Can't trash your treasure very quickly in early game (Chapel, ...)
4.  Can't get provinces relatively quickly without buying treasure (Merchant Ship, ...)
5.  Can't make an engine that blocks Pirate Ship attacks well (Lighthouse, ...)

Obviously most kingdoms aren't going to meet this criteria, but there are enough that I play the combo from time to time, when emphasizing the Sea Side expansion.  As I said earlier, so far I'm undefeated when playing this combo.   I'm open to challenges (on kingdom we agree upon beforehand).

Smithy / BM also has a place in games without a lot of expansions.   Assuming a Base + Sea Side focus like above, if the kingdom does not have strong attacks and you cannot make a draw your deck type engine with multiple buys, then Smithy (and variants) is likely to do well.   I wouldn't expect having a place for Smithy / BM to be controversial, but I can list some example kingdoms or games if you'd like.

[Awaclus]

3.  Can't trash your treasure very quickly in early game (Chapel, ...)

Pirate Ship gets super better if your opponent trashes all of their Coppers very quickly in the early game. If the only Treasures in their deck are Treasures that they actually don't want to trash and they have a good number of those Treasures, Pirate Ship is a pretty strong attack.

I'm open to challenges, if we can agree on the kingdom.

Sure thing, that sounds a lot more useful than this discussion, anyway. I think the obvious kingdom would be Pirate Ship + Fishing Village + 8 random cards (we can play some games with 8 full random and some with 8 random from just Base and Seaside, for instance).

[NolanA]

3.  Can't trash your treasure very quickly in early game (Chapel, ...)

Pirate Ship gets super better if your opponent trashes all of their Coppers very quickly in the early game. If the only Treasures in their deck are Treasures that they actually don't want to trash and they have a good number of those Treasures, Pirate Ship is a pretty strong attack.

It depends what the opponent is going to do with the Chapeled deck.  In some Chapel + FV strategies, they don't have a "good number of those treasures", and instead a large portion of the opponent's deck is either VC or action cards, so you don't hit treasure often with the Pirate Ship attacks and are slow to get Provinces. However, the Chapel strategies that would be most effective against the combo are generally covered by the other criteria, so I'll agree with you that Chapel can make the combo even better.

Sure thing, that sounds a lot more useful than this discussion, anyway. I think the obvious kingdom would be Pirate Ship + Fishing Village + 8 random cards (we can play some games with 8 full random and some with 8 random from just Base and Seaside, for instance).

 I'm open to that type of idea.   We can work out the details in PM. 

[Aleimon Thimble]

You've all been waiting for this! Okay, you haven't. But I'm gonna post it anyway. My top 3 favorite cards!


3. Haunted Woods

In the early Adventures discussions, I tried to convince people that Haunted Woods is stronger than Wharf. Turns out that it’s not. But it’s definitely cooler than Wharf. Its attack is weakish, but very interesting, and you can try to make it benefit yourself too if you get hit with it by topdecking stuff. But the main thing is the amazing delayed draw. +3 Cards on the next turn is so much stronger and sexier than +3 Cards now that I wouldn’t dare to compare this piece of pure beauty to something like Rabble. Plus, its name is cool, as well as its artwork. Haunted Woods sounds and looks scary, something you definitely want in your deck.

2. Prince

3 of the 5 cards in the top 5 are unconventional splitters (a category I kinda made up with cards that do not say +2 Actions but can leave you with extra Actions). I like those quirky engine cards a lot. Prince, however, is best with strong terminals. Militia, Monument, Smithy and Envoy are rock stars. The stars need to align for it to happen, and your engine needs to sort of kick into gear already, but if it does, your engine is now super reliable. I don’t care if DXV likes Black Market and Stash, to me, Prince is the ultimate Promo card. Plus, I got my copy of Prince when I finished third in the Dutch championship last year, so I have some positive memories of it to boot.

1. Herald

There it is. The single most satisfying thing in the Dominion universe. It’s called the Herald cascade. You play a Herald, +1 Card and +1 Action, and the top card of your deck is a… Herald! You play it for +1 Card and +1 Action, only to reveal… another Herald! The immense rush of dopamine in my brain whenever this happens can only be compared to hard drugs like cocaine or heroin. Disclaimer: don’t do heroin. Or cocaine. Maybe try weed if that’s legal where you live. Anyway, I digress. Do Heralds instead. You won’t be disappointed. Many, many kudos to drsteelhammer for getting this right early on, I will now give a like to your post, as I couldn’t do so earlier without spoiling it.

Full list:

1.   Herald
2.   Prince
3.   Haunted Woods
4.   Feodum
5.   Throne Room
6.   Counting House
7.   Miser
8.   Jester
9.   Highway
10.   Peasant
11.   Band of Misfits
12.   Golem
13.   Merchant Guild
14.   Minion
15.   Haggler
16.   Count
17.   Amulet
18.   Coppersmith
19.   University
20.   Forge
21.   Fortress
22.   Stonemason
23.   Bridge
24.   Apothecary
25.   Gardens
26.   Salvager
27.   Vault
28.   Saboteur
29.   Goons
30.   Quarry

[tristan]

Prince is cool as it is so game-changing but Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

[aku_chi]

I think Haunted Woods and Rabble are pretty easy cards to compare, and the comparison is valuable.  They're both $5 terminal draw cards that attack your opponent by leaving junk cards on top of their deck.  Their attacks are most valuable when the opponent has a lot of victory cards and/or curses, and their "attacks" might help opponents who don't have junk cards in their deck.  I also believe that they have a very similar power level.

Of course, there are important differences.  As an attack, Rabble works better when stacked; multiple Haunted Woods don't matter.  There are a few more ways to play around Haunted Woods' attack (only buy events, discard junk or set it aside with Gear/Haven/etc...), though it can be more brutal than Rabble, and there are some different ways to work around Rabble's attack (Farming Village, Hunting Party (sometimes), Sage (sometimes), Scout!).  As draw, Rabble is better in a draw-your-deck style engine, and can be a big part of that engine.  Haunted Woods adds reliability to your turns and doesn't require as many villages.

[traces Around]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

[Aleimon Thimble]

I think Haunted Woods and Rabble are pretty easy cards to compare, and the comparison is valuable.  They're both $5 terminal draw cards that attack your opponent by leaving junk cards on top of their deck.  Their attacks are most valuable when the opponent has a lot of victory cards and/or curses, and their "attacks" might help opponents who don't have junk cards in their deck.  I also believe that they have a very similar power level.

Of course, there are important differences.  As an attack, Rabble works better when stacked; multiple Haunted Woods don't matter.  There are a few more ways to play around Haunted Woods' attack (only buy events, discard junk or set it aside with Gear/Haven/etc...), though it can be more brutal than Rabble, and there are some different ways to work around Rabble's attack (Farming Village, Hunting Party (sometimes), Sage (sometimes), Scout!).  As draw, Rabble is better in a draw-your-deck style engine, and can be a big part of that engine.  Haunted Woods adds reliability to your turns and doesn't require as many villages.

I think direct terminal draw and delayed draw are different enough that it requires a closer look to compare them, and Haunted Woods is a lot more comparable to Wharf (and maybe Enchantress, haven't played with it) than to Rabble. Delayed draw is usually better, because, like you said, it adds reliability and doesn't require a Village in your starting hand. It works in a draw-your-deck engine just fine, you just have to be a bit more careful how many Woods you're playing each turn (just like with Wharf) instead of mindlessly alternating Village and Rabble until you have your deck in your hand. Rabble's attack is comparable to Haunted Woods, and it's also stronger on average, I'll give you that; Haunted Woods more than makes up for it with its delayed draw, though.

Prince is cool as it is so game-changing but Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

Herald is a rock star pretty much always. It enables engines almost by itself, only needing very light trashing and maybe +Buy. The only reason Herald might be weak is if there are cards you do not want to autoplay (forced trashers and Ambassador, stuff like that). In that sense, it's a bit like Golem (which would be a power card as well if it didn't cost 4P).

[McGarnacle]

Herald is quite strong. It provides draw and village capability, plus the on buy effect can be nice for setting up a mega turn.

[tristan]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

In most Kingdoms Herald is weak. Sure, with gainers, decent trashing or in slogs it can shine but it shines rarely.

[traces Around]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

In most Kingdoms Herald is weak. Sure, with gainers, decent trashing or in slogs it can shine but it shines rarely.

Sigh.

Man, do you even engine?

[Aleimon Thimble]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

In most Kingdoms Herald is weak. Sure, with gainers, decent trashing or in slogs it can shine but it shines rarely.

Why the actual hell would you use Herald in slogs? It's a pure engine card, and one of the strongest ones in the game at that.

[AdrianHealey]

Presumably for it's overbuy effect?

[tristan]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

In most Kingdoms Herald is weak. Sure, with gainers, decent trashing or in slogs it can shine but it shines rarely.

Why the actual hell would you use Herald in slogs? It's a pure engine card, and one of the strongest ones in the game at that.

The notion that Herald is unconditionally one of the best cards in the game is utterly preposterous.

Herald only becomes good once your deck reaches a decent Action card density. That's why it is good in long games (good luck achieving anything with Herald in games that take 15-20 turns).
As I said, you can reach this density via decent trashing (and mandatory trashers like Trading Post can backfire in the endgame as Herald force-plays Action cards). If gainers are on the board Herald is also OK because the cost of getting Heralds is lower (of course there could be other decent 4s; e.g. Ironmongers are most often better and even a simple Village+Smithy draw engine is most likely to beat a Herald deck) than if you always have to buy it.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

In most Kingdoms Herald is weak. Sure, with gainers, decent trashing or in slogs it can shine but it shines rarely.

Why the actual hell would you use Herald in slogs? It's a pure engine card, and one of the strongest ones in the game at that.

The notion that Herald is unconditionally one of the best cards in the game is utterly preposterous.

Herald only becomes good once your deck reaches a decent Action card density. That's why it is good in long games (good luck achieving anything with Herald in games that take 15-20 turns).
As I said, you can reach this density via decent trashing (and mandatory trashers like Trading Post can backfire in the endgame as Herald force-plays Action cards). If gainers are on the board Herald is also OK because the cost of getting Heralds is lower (of course there could be other decent 4s; e.g. Ironmongers are most often better and even a simple Village+Smithy draw engine is most likely to beat a Herald deck) than if you always have to buy it.

Well, yeah, Herald is good whenever your deck has a decent Action density. Almost all engines have a decent Action density though. Otherwise you're not playing an engine, and if you're not playing an engine, you shouldn't get Herald. Could you clarify why you would ever buy it in slogs?

Basically, if a Village would suck, then Herald usually also sucks (except if what you're missing is draw, because Herald can provide draw).
On the other hand, if a Village is good, then Herald is amazing (except if you have mandatory trashers you can't get rid of).

[tristan]

Herald is just a cheaper, conditional, forced-play version of Lost City. When it shines it is totally brilliant but most of the time it is mediocre or weak.

A cheaper, conditional version of one of the best cards in the game is not a most of the time mediocre or weak card.

In most Kingdoms Herald is weak. Sure, with gainers, decent trashing or in slogs it can shine but it shines rarely.

Why the actual hell would you use Herald in slogs? It's a pure engine card, and one of the strongest ones in the game at that.

The notion that Herald is unconditionally one of the best cards in the game is utterly preposterous.

Herald only becomes good once your deck reaches a decent Action card density. That's why it is good in long games (good luck achieving anything with Herald in games that take 15-20 turns).
As I said, you can reach this density via decent trashing (and mandatory trashers like Trading Post can backfire in the endgame as Herald force-plays Action cards). If gainers are on the board Herald is also OK because the cost of getting Heralds is lower (of course there could be other decent 4s; e.g. Ironmongers are most often better and even a simple Village+Smithy draw engine is most likely to beat a Herald deck) than if you always have to buy it.

Basically, if a Village would suck, then Herald usually also sucks (except if what you're missing is draw, because Herald can provide draw).
On the other hand, if a Village is good, then Herald is amazing (except if you have mandatory trashers you can't get rid of).

It's a timing issue. In a Kingdom with Herald and Village you might want a few Villages during the early game while your Heralds virtually always "miss".
About the game length, as I already said, if the game is short enough the turns in which Herald shines are potentially too few to make Herald a good card in the respective Kingdom.

[drsteelhammer]

20 turns is very long. It's probably more accurate that you only want Heralds when the game is shorter than that.

[AdrianHealey]

Isn't lost village, without the overpay effect, strictly better?

[ThetaSigma12]

Isn't lost village, without the overpay effect, strictly better?

No.

[AdrianHealey]

When isn't it?

[Chris is me]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

[AdrianHealey]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

Sure, I am not saying that lost city overall is strictly better or anything.

But it seems to me that herald is just a 'not always functioning' lost city when you have it. If you reveal an action, you can play it. But so does lost city: if you draw an action, you always have an action to play it. if you don't reveal an action, it's just a cantrip with herald. In lost cities case, you have the additional card in your hand, which is a-ok. So, sure, pricing and on gain effects matter for the total evaluation of the card and all, but the actual on play effect, herald is just a pretty bad lost city. Or am I missing something?

[McGarnacle]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

Sure, I am not saying that lost city overall is strictly better or anything.

But it seems to me that herald is just a 'not always functioning' lost city when you have it. If you reveal an action, you can play it. But so does lost city: if you draw an action, you always have an action to play it. if you don't reveal an action, it's just a cantrip with herald. In lost cities case, you have the additional card in your hand, which is a-ok. So, sure, pricing and on gain effects matter for the total evaluation of the card and all, but the actual on play effect, herald is just a pretty bad lost city. Or am I missing something?

I rate Herald quite well. It can be better than a village, and with any sort of deck inspection, it can be even better. Oracle/Herald, Cartographer/Herald, Gear/Herald, etc.

[LaLight]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

Sure, I am not saying that lost city overall is strictly better or anything.

But it seems to me that herald is just a 'not always functioning' lost city when you have it. If you reveal an action, you can play it. But so does lost city: if you draw an action, you always have an action to play it. if you don't reveal an action, it's just a cantrip with herald. In lost cities case, you have the additional card in your hand, which is a-ok. So, sure, pricing and on gain effects matter for the total evaluation of the card and all, but the actual on play effect, herald is just a pretty bad lost city. Or am I missing something?

I rate Herald quite well. It can be better than a village, and with any sort of deck inspection, it can be even better. Oracle/Herald, Cartographer/Herald, Gear/Herald, etc.

Don't forget amazing Scout/Herald combo!

[Aleimon Thimble]

I rate Herald quite well. It can be better than a village, and with any sort of deck inspection, it can be even better. Oracle/Herald, Cartographer/Herald, Gear/Herald, etc.

Apothecary/Scout/Herald!

Are you kidding me, ninja'd by like 15 seconds

[AdrianHealey]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

Sure, I am not saying that lost city overall is strictly better or anything.

But it seems to me that herald is just a 'not always functioning' lost city when you have it. If you reveal an action, you can play it. But so does lost city: if you draw an action, you always have an action to play it. if you don't reveal an action, it's just a cantrip with herald. In lost cities case, you have the additional card in your hand, which is a-ok. So, sure, pricing and on gain effects matter for the total evaluation of the card and all, but the actual on play effect, herald is just a pretty bad lost city. Or am I missing something?

I rate Herald quite well. It can be better than a village, and with any sort of deck inspection, it can be even better. Oracle/Herald, Cartographer/Herald, Gear/Herald, etc.

But whatever herald does when it's in your deck, lost city does it better, no?

[McGarnacle]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

Sure, I am not saying that lost city overall is strictly better or anything.

But it seems to me that herald is just a 'not always functioning' lost city when you have it. If you reveal an action, you can play it. But so does lost city: if you draw an action, you always have an action to play it. if you don't reveal an action, it's just a cantrip with herald. In lost cities case, you have the additional card in your hand, which is a-ok. So, sure, pricing and on gain effects matter for the total evaluation of the card and all, but the actual on play effect, herald is just a pretty bad lost city. Or am I missing something?

I rate Herald quite well. It can be better than a village, and with any sort of deck inspection, it can be even better. Oracle/Herald, Cartographer/Herald, Gear/Herald, etc.

But whatever herald does when it's in your deck, lost city does it better, no?

In most cases, yes, but LC does cost more, plus it has the on-buy penalty. Lost City is also very strong, Herald I think is high mid-level power-wise.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Herald I think is high mid-level power-wise.

Last year, the community voted Herald #7 out of 66 $4 cards. I personally feel that's still too low - I voted it #1 myself. I might be slightly biased because I like playing with it too much, but I don't understand why Wandering Minstrel and Ironmonger are above it - Herald is clearly the better engine card to me, and all of these splitters are fairly mediocre if there's no engine.

[McGarnacle]

Herald I think is high mid-level power-wise.

Last year, the community voted Herald #7 out of 66 $4 cards. I personally feel that's still too low - I voted it #1 myself. I might be slightly biased because I like playing with it too much, but I don't understand why Wandering Minstrel and Ironmonger are above it - Herald is clearly the better engine card to me, and all of these splitters are fairly mediocre if there's no engine.

I think Ironmonger might be a tad overrated, but Wandering Minstrel is great. It also combos with Herald very well.

[Chris is me]

Just posting to point out that a $4 cost card that's usually "only a Lost City with an auto play clause" is a really good card. Lost City costs $5 and has a significant on gain penalty.

Sure, I am not saying that lost city overall is strictly better or anything.

But it seems to me that herald is just a 'not always functioning' lost city when you have it. If you reveal an action, you can play it. But so does lost city: if you draw an action, you always have an action to play it. if you don't reveal an action, it's just a cantrip with herald. In lost cities case, you have the additional card in your hand, which is a-ok. So, sure, pricing and on gain effects matter for the total evaluation of the card and all, but the actual on play effect, herald is just a pretty bad lost city. Or am I missing something?

I rate Herald quite well. It can be better than a village, and with any sort of deck inspection, it can be even better. Oracle/Herald, Cartographer/Herald, Gear/Herald, etc.

But whatever herald does when it's in your deck, lost city does it better, no?

Yeah, ignoring opportunity costs to get both cards, obviously you would rather have a Lost City. But $5 and the draw thing makes it so much more difficult to get than $4. Gainers work with Herald, $8/2buy is less costly than $10/2cards/2buy, etc.

[allanfieldhouse]

Ironmonger and Wandering Minstrel both have the advantage that they don't care as much about trashing. Both actually help out a lot when there isn't any good trashing, but they're still awesome when you've trashed down.

[drsteelhammer]

tristan, do you play on MF? I'd like to examine your herald games.

[Awaclus]

tristan, do you play on MF? I'd like to examine your herald games.

Yes, his user name is horatio83.

[Chris is me]

Ironmonger and Wandering Minstrel both have the advantage that they don't care as much about trashing. Both actually help out a lot when there isn't any good trashing, but they're still awesome when you've trashed down.

Ironmonger isn't better at being a Village than Herald; it's pretty much strictly worse because it doesn't "draw" (play) the 2nd card. It just does other useful things when it misses.

[AdrianHealey]

Ironmonger and Wandering Minstrel both have the advantage that they don't care as much about trashing. Both actually help out a lot when there isn't any good trashing, but they're still awesome when you've trashed down.

Ironmonger isn't better at being a Village than Herald; it's pretty much strictly worse because it doesn't "draw" (play) the 2nd card. It just does other useful things when it misses.

Ironmonger is either a village (when it meets an action), a peddler (with it meets a treasure) and a lab (when it meets a victory card) + the option of cycling.

Herald is either a cantrip (bad) or a lost city (pretty good).

Herald seems more like the high risk/high reward kind of a guy, while ironmonger is the more solid one overall, where at it's best it's pretty good, but at it's worst it's also pretty good. Herald at it's worst is just bad.

[Awaclus]

Ironmonger and Wandering Minstrel both have the advantage that they don't care as much about trashing. Both actually help out a lot when there isn't any good trashing, but they're still awesome when you've trashed down.

Ironmonger isn't better at being a Village than Herald; it's pretty much strictly worse because it doesn't "draw" (play) the 2nd card. It just does other useful things when it misses.

Ironmonger is either a village (when it meets an action), a peddler (with it meets a treasure) and a lab (when it meets a victory card) + the option of cycling.

Herald is either a cantrip (bad) or a lost city (pretty good).

Herald seems more like the high risk/high reward kind of a guy, while ironmonger is the more solid one overall, where at it's best it's pretty good, but at it's worst it's also pretty good. Herald at it's worst is just bad.

Ironmonger at its worst (when you reveal an Action you want to keep and you don't have two more terminal Actions in your hand) is also just a cantrip.

Also, a Lost City is not "pretty good", it's insanely good considering that you only paid $4 for it.

[AdrianHealey]

Or when you reveal a curse or hovel.

[tristan]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

[Limetime]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

Ironmonger is pretty much village in engines with trashing .

[Chris is me]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

Herald has a higher effectiveness ceiling, Ironmonger has a lower ceiling that is more consistently achieved. In a very thinned engine, Ironmonger is actually not that great because it is even more often just a Village. For Ironmonger to be better than Herald, you need to not be able to thin all the Treasure and Victory cards out of your deck, and you need to not be relying on it as the sole source of +Action.

Ironmonger is definitely the better card on many boards, it's just a question of how much better Herald is on the boards where it's good. And it's not like it's a particularly bad card when it's just OK.

[tristan]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

Ironmonger is pretty much village in engines with trashing .

Sure. As I said, Ironmonger is useful in every deck whereas Herald is only useful in decks with a sufficiently high Action density.
I never claimed that Herald is not better than Ironmonger in a deck with a high Action density, only that the former is situational whereas the latter is a broad card.

[Limetime]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

Ironmonger is pretty much village in engines with trashing .

Sure. As I said, Ironmonger is useful in every deck whereas Herald is only useful in decks with a sufficiently high Action density.
I never claimed that Herald is not better than Ironmonger in a deck with a high Action density, only that the former is situational whereas the latter is a broad card.

Ironmonger is pretty overrated.
Herald is situational but the situation it is good in is the most common situation.

[tristan]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

Ironmonger is pretty much village in engines with trashing .

Sure. As I said, Ironmonger is useful in every deck whereas Herald is only useful in decks with a sufficiently high Action density.
I never claimed that Herald is not better than Ironmonger in a deck with a high Action density, only that the former is situational whereas the latter is a broad card.

Ironmonger is pretty overrated.
Herald is situational but the situation it is good in is the most common situation.

I totally disagree. Ironmonger is, at least to me, on average the superior card.

[Chris is me]

I do think lots of people here overstate the proportion of all games where an engine is actually possible. I think they just selectively don't remember the BM and Slog games.

[allanfieldhouse]

I do think lots of people here overstate the proportion of all games where an engine is actually possible. I think they just selectively don't remember the BM and Slog games.

Quite possibly true, but the simple presence of Ironmonger or Herald does push that balance toward an engine.

[aku_chi]

Ironmonger is useful in every deck. Herald isn't.

Ironmonger is pretty much village in engines with trashing .

Except that in the early game, Ironmonger helps you reach $5 and cycle.  Herald doesn't.  Yes, Herald has a higher ceiling in the decks that most people prefer to play, but it often isn't possible to reach that ceiling.  Ironmonger, on the other hand, is pretty much always great.

[Limetime]

Ironmonger, on the other hand, is pretty much always mediocrely good

FTFY

[tristan]

Ironmonger, on the other hand, is pretty much always mediocrely good

FTFY

Nope.
A Peddler that discards a Copper is a far better start than a cantrip for 4$.
Herald does have its uses but only in very particular games and even in these games you will virtually always buy a few Ironmongers before you switch towards Heralds.

[McGarnacle]

Ironmonger, on the other hand, is pretty much always mediocrely good

FTFY

Nope.
A Peddler that discards a Copper is a far better start than a cantrip for 4$.
Herald does have its uses but only in very particular games and even in these games you will virtually always buy a few Ironmongers before you switch towards Heralds.

Unless you don't have access to Ironmonger.

[Beyond Awesome]

In my Qvist rankings, I have ironmonger ranked as the second best $4-coster behind Remake

[tristan]

Ironmonger, on the other hand, is pretty much always mediocrely good

FTFY

Nope.
A Peddler that discards a Copper is a far better start than a cantrip for 4$.
Herald does have its uses but only in very particular games and even in these games you will virtually always buy a few Ironmongers before you switch towards Heralds.

Unless you don't have access to Ironmonger.

When comparing Ironmonger and Herald it kinda makes sense to assume that they are present in the very same Kingdom.

[Deadlock39]

It also makes sense to compare the relative impact each card has on the situation you are considering if you are assuming they are both present. In the case of a board where a engine enabled by Herald is present, you could replace Ironmonger with Pearl Diver and build essentially the same deck. It is true you want to open with Ironmongers over Herald in this case, but that fact does not support the conclusion that Ironmonger is a better card, or more important in this scenario.

Let me be clear that I am not taking a side here. Ironmonger is a good card almost always, but a key card only when it is the only Village and can reliably be used as such. Herald is worse-than-Pearl-Diver-bad on some boards, and arguably better than Lost City on others.  Which one is the 'better' card? Man, 'better' is a subjective thing that can be defined in a multitude of ways. The way you define it will determine which of these cards fits that definition more closely. (Surprise! You aren't arguing about which card is better, you are arguing about what 'better' means. Good luck with that.)

[tristan]

It also makes sense to compare the relative impact each card has on the situation you are considering if you are assuming they are both present. In the case of a board where a engine enabled by Herald is present, you could replace Ironmonger with Pearl Diver and build essentially the same deck. It is true you want to open with Ironmongers over Herald in this case, but that fact does not support the conclusion that Ironmonger is a better card, or more important in this scenario.

Why would I want to buy Pearl Diver, a card that does virtually nothing? Until my deck has a decent enough Action density (something that is easier achieved if there are trashers or gainers present) Ironmonger is a great card. In the beginning it is better than Peddler or Lab!
Now once the Action card density is high enough I do of course not want Ironmongers to be my village but Heralds to be my (slighty inferior) Lost City.
In quick games that tipping point might come very late in the game.