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Author Topic: Empires - A second look  (Read 4464 times)

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Asper

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2016, 01:54:06 pm »
+1

Somehow always end up talking about the stuff i don't like. So let's try to turn this around - here's some of the things in Empires i think are really cool:
  • Even though i'm not a huge fan of Catapult, ...

Way to start it off positive ;)

I suck at this...

LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2016, 07:59:10 pm »
+1

I love (almost) everything about Empires. Catapult, Villa, and Enchantress are among my favorites.
I think the only thing we agree on not liking is Farmer's Market.
The only other things I don't like as much are Legionary, Salt the Earth, and Conquest.

I just played a game yesterday with Orchard and Wolf's Den. My opponent had 8 provinces but 5 unique cards because he ignored Wolf's Den. I won on my last turn by buying two more of a couple cheap action cards, and a second copy of another card to minimize my unique cards and exploit Orchard. (Grand Market was in the kingdom, so I had plenty of buys.) That was fun.

The thing I really don't understand is why a card's artwork would keep you from liking it.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 08:00:40 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Asper

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2016, 12:13:00 am »
+2

The thing I really don't understand is why a card's artwork would keep you from liking it.

It's not my main reason to like or dislike a card, but liking something is very subjective. Fortune isn't a worse card only because i don't like how it looks, just as Harem doesn't become a more interesting card only because i like the odd comic art style. If i said "Fortune is a bad card" or "a badly made card", then i'd have to back that up with more than just a little bit of personal preference. Fortune isn't a bad card, though, and not a badly designed one, either. I have a lot of irrational reasons to like or dislike cards, and many of them have nothing to do with how good or bad a design a card is. For Fortune, i just don't feel it.

Asper

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2016, 11:06:40 pm »
+2

Also, for what it's worth, i'm sometimes wondering to what extend my very critical approach towards the newer expansions is because i have become more critical in general. I mean, Intrigue for example is one of my favourite expansions, but you can certainly say that Dominion has become better since then. I'm never complaining about Secret Chamber, Scout, or Great Hall being useless, or Torturer, Minion and Saboteur being rage-inducing, or Masquerade allowing you to pin opponents, even though there are good reasons to complain about those things. It's maybe just, when those were new to me, i didn't look at them that way. Comparing Empires and Intrigue, i like Intrigue slightly better, but the reasons for this are emotional, and if i said that Intrigue was better, i really don't think it would be true. Especially as Empires is so much more elaborate in how it allows for "alt VP" strategies than Intrigue. You'd never just waste a slot on Great Hall today. Instead you'd have an Event costing $3 that just straight gives the VP - or, you know, one that costs a little more and also gives you pile control.

kieranmillar

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2016, 02:06:30 am »
+4

This increase in criticality and negativity is, in my experience, pretty common for people who become extremely invested in something and spend a lot of time on it, and it's usually attributable to burnout. If you're hoping a new expansion will give the same level of excitement as they did when Dominion was still new to you then it's never going to happen. Once you develop a deeper understanding of the game and the implications of new mechanics it won't reach the same highs of excitement because the Aha! moments don't come as often and aren't as fundamental or profound. Maybe consider taking a break for a while?

To be more on topic, Empires has been a smash hit with my group and its my favourite expansion by a mile (have only played base, intrigue, seaside, prosoerity and empires). One of my friends, after having played his first game, went out and bought his own copy and has had a lot of plays with his family. Only card we all aren't sure about is Catapult / Rocks which we all feel is weak and not worth buying, but everything else that we first looked at and were unsure about, like Salt The Earth, have ended up being fine. We were worried Salt games would end instantly and not be interesting, but it doesn't happen. Early salting is suicide, the opportunity cost too large and the one point so easy for other people to overcome. (Edit: yes I know about Salt + Feodum, I know you were getting giddy with excitement to edge-case that sentence)

So yeah, Empires. Bloody amazing! Always wanted to see the return of VP chips and have more than 3 things use them and boy howdy Empires was more than I ever could have hoped for and wildly exceeded even my grandest expectations. Debt is amazing and just a brilliant way to introduce powerful cards that have to cost 8 without having them compete with provinces so people will actually buy them. The people in my group who normally hate attacks still enjoy the attacks in Empires, as even though Legionary is strong you have to work harder for it and feels fairer to them, and Enchantress is novel and they find it easier to play around (although we forget one is in play all the time). Finally the Landmarks add a ton of variety in a wonderful way, feeling like rule modifiers that can change your decisions in both subtle and not subtle ways. The game I had with Bandit Fort was the best game of Dominion I have ever played even if it took an hour in 2 player, learned the hard way that you usually still want the silver.

Empires delivered everything I wanted from Dominion in a way that surpassed anything I could have hoped for, thank you Donald!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 07:18:19 am by kieranmillar »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2016, 07:00:16 am »
0

You become more critical, but only about the new stuff? That seems weird to me. I certainly have become more critical about Dominion aswell, but as a whole and not selectively. In my opinion it's very obvious that Dominion got a lot better with the recent expansions and the early ones are just bad in comparison. Intrigue was my first expansion aswell and I loved it, but comparing it to Empires? doesn't stand a chance at all and I don't see how it could.

Anyway, thumps up for introspection.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2016, 10:26:17 am »
0

The Base Set is awful compared to the new stuff. Adventures almost feels like too much things, but Empires is like the correct mix.
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Asper

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Re: Empires - A second look
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2016, 10:54:28 am »
0

This increase in criticality and negativity is, in my experience, pretty common for people who become extremely invested in something and spend a lot of time on it, and it's usually attributable to burnout. If you're hoping a new expansion will give the same level of excitement as they did when Dominion was still new to you then it's never going to happen. Once you develop a deeper understanding of the game and the implications of new mechanics it won't reach the same highs of excitement because the Aha! moments don't come as often and aren't as fundamental or profound. Maybe consider taking a break for a while?

I'll give taking a break another shot. Thank you for your analysis.
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