Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Disciple on Band of Misfits  (Read 4651 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tufftaeh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Shuffle iT Username: tufftaeh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Disciple on Band of Misfits
« on: May 22, 2016, 04:25:55 pm »
+2

Today, I learned that MF has decided that when you play Disciple to play a Band of Misfits twice, you gain a copy of the card that BoM pretended to be, not a copy of BoM.
Is this correct, and if yes, why? (I'm a little bit afraid we're in blue dog territory there...)
Logged

J Reggie

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 699
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1108
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2016, 04:28:19 pm »
+7

That makes sense. When Disciple is checking what card you should gain, BoM is whatever card it is emulating, so Disciple will gain that.

This probably applies to Pilgrimage as well.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 04:39:13 pm by J Reggie »
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5535
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • Respect: +3484
    • View Profile
    • The Border Village
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2016, 04:43:07 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?
Logged
Don't let this one slip, or you could be going to military school.

Join Dominion Discord

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • They can't all be the best personal text ever
  • Respect: +1953
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 04:51:27 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

twitch.tv/a_drowned_kernel

J Reggie

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 699
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1108
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 04:57:33 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.

I could go either way on this. The counter-argument would be that it says "a card in the supply" and "this is that card".
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 04:58:35 pm by J Reggie »
Logged

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1145
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1769
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 05:07:38 pm »
+1

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.

I could go either way on this. The counter-argument would be that it says "a card in the supply" and "this is that card".

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

I'm going for no, and that BoM means "a copy of that card", but I'm not sure.

Edit: thinking more about this, I'm pretty sure that BoM is meant to be "a copy of that card", while still retaining its identity.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 05:10:50 pm by Accatitippi »
Logged

dane-m

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
  • Shuffle iT Username: dane-m
  • Respect: +137
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 05:30:10 pm »
+7

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.
You're right about Inherited Estates, but (unless my memory is misleading me) wrong about BoM.  Indeed if I recall correctly, the Adventures rules explicitly state that BoM gets the benefit of both tokens on its own pile and tokens on the pile of the card it becomes.  The important difference is that an Inherited Estate is still an Estate, but a BoM played as another card is that card until it leaves play.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1742
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 09:58:08 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.
You're right about Inherited Estates, but (unless my memory is misleading me) wrong about BoM.  Indeed if I recall correctly, the Adventures rules explicitly state that BoM gets the benefit of both tokens on its own pile and tokens on the pile of the card it becomes.  The important difference is that an Inherited Estate is still an Estate, but a BoM played as another card is that card until it leaves play.

I am confident there is a post somewhere on the forum where Donald says this is the way it works.

(Fairly certain the ruling has not been changed after the fact also, but can't be sure.)

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 10:33:37 pm »
+2

You get the token bonuses from both the BoM pile and the pile of the card it emulates. This is because you played 2 cards, first the BoM, then the BoM-as-whatever.

This all came about in the somewhat recent rule change in the really long thread somewhere near here.

I believe this is the thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 10:35:42 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

tufftaeh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Shuffle iT Username: tufftaeh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 11:10:20 am »
0

Back to topic:  ;)
I'm still not sure I understand why "Gain a copy of it." does not refer to the card that I played (a BoM) but to the card that is now in play (which BoM pretends to be).
Am I correct to assume that if I play Disciple on BoM as Feast, I gain a BoM because Feast isn't in play anymore (but a BoM in the trash) when the gain effect triggers?
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1236
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +912
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 11:23:21 am »
0

Back to topic:  ;)
I'm still not sure I understand why "Gain a copy of it." does not refer to the card that I played (a BoM) but to the card that is now in play (which BoM pretends to be).
Am I correct to assume that if I play Disciple on BoM as Feast, I gain a BoM because Feast isn't in play anymore (but a BoM in the trash) when the gain effect triggers?
Yes, it should work like that.

The key thing is that copy refers to the name.
"Copy of x" = "card with the same name as x"

tufftaeh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Shuffle iT Username: tufftaeh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 12:17:03 pm »
0

I see how this is somehow consistent with the TR-BoM ruling (saying that you cannot chose a different card for the second play). I just fail to see how that ruling is intuitive. Wouldn't it be much simpler if TR locked in the BoM, before it changes to something else? I guess there might be other problems if it was ruled that simple, so I will check the old threads to see if there is an explanation.
Logged

tufftaeh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Shuffle iT Username: tufftaeh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2016, 06:18:43 pm »
0

Okay, I've found it. Unfortunately, it's not only a ruling (which might be reverted) but it's in the Dark Ages rulebook. :(

So, Throne Room variants (including Disciple) don't remember that they have played a BoM (which would have been the intuitive way and which would have avoided the exception for a self-trashing BoM) but they check again what that card "is" now (the selected one if it is still in play) when they play it for the second time. Disciple even checks a third time when it makes you gain a copy. The latter should go into the Wiki, I guess, as it is not obvious even if it is consistent with the former.

For reference, the Disciple card text: You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it.
So "it" doesn't mean "the action card you selected from your hand" but "the card that the action card you selected from your hand happens to be after you have played it twice".
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 06:27:08 pm by tufftaeh »
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1236
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +912
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2016, 06:52:22 pm »
+1

For reference, the Disciple card text: You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it.
So "it" doesn't mean "the action card you selected from your hand" but "the card that the action card you selected from your hand happens to be after you have played it twice".

Well, that's not entirely accurate. It is the Action card you selected from your hand, it has just changed names. In Dominion choosing a card refers to a specific card. If you have two BoMs in your hand (plus any other Action cards), Disciple tells you to choose one of them. That card is the card you play; you don't just play "Band of Misfits" as a general idea. And that card, the one you played (not the one in your hand or any other BoM), is the one you will gain a copy of - "copy" meaning a card with the same name as it. And its name happens to not be "BoM" anymore.

It's really the same concept as with costs. If you play Two Highways and then Swindler, and you hit my Estate, my Estate has the cost 0. The cost printed on the card is not current anymore.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 10:56:02 am by Jeebus »
Logged

tufftaeh

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Shuffle iT Username: tufftaeh
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2016, 08:22:55 pm »
+1

Thanks! That was exactly the explanation I needed. The emphasis is on the action card, the specific piece of paper. Yeah, that makes sense now.

Even if it's not exactly the same concept as the cost reduced by Highway for Swindler.  8)
It's obvious that the cost of the card is checked immediately after the card has been trashed by Swindler.
It's not as obvious that Disciple doesn't remember which card it originally played but checks its name later again. After all, even Conspirator remembers that a BoM has been played, correct?
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1236
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +912
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2016, 09:27:05 pm »
0

Even if it's not exactly the same concept as the cost reduced by Highway for Swindler.  8)
It's obvious that the cost of the card is checked immediately after the card has been trashed by Swindler.
It's not as obvious that Disciple doesn't remember which card it originally played but checks its name later again.
Right, it's not so obvious because of the phrase "gain a copy of it". "It" refers to the card you played, and since we're talking about a past act (playing it) it's easy to think of what the card was right when you played it. But there really is no reason why "gain a copy of <card>" should refer to the name <card> used to have. So I think it's the same concept as for costs, just presented in a different way.

After all, even Conspirator remembers that a BoM has been played, correct?
Yes. Conspirator specifically asks you how many Action cards you've played this turn. You're the one who remembers, really.
BoM tells you to gain a copy of a specified card. It's not that Disciple doesn't "remember", it's that that's the instruction. To be the other way, it would have to be something like "gain a card with the name that the chosen card had when you chose it."

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8081
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9419
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 08:21:06 am »
+3

Inheritance/Tokens: The card Estates are copying has been set aside, and Estates are looking at it, not the pile it came from, so no token abilities.

BoM/Tokens: You first play BoM, getting its token stuff, then play at as something else from the Supply (so you can't play a card from an empty pile, and you only get the currently exposed card from a split pile), and since you're looking at a pile, you get token stuff.

BoM/Conspirator: You first play BoM, which counts as playing an Action, then you play it *as* Conspirator, which is your second Action played.

BoM/Procession: You play BoM as some card from the Supply twice (same card both times).  Procession takes a quick coffee break, smokes a cigarette, and when it comes back, the card it played has been trashed.  Wait, what was it again?  Procession checks in the trash, and behold, it's a Band of Misfits.  Gain a Action.

BoM/Disciple: You play BoM as some card from the Supply twice (same card both times).  Disciple takes a quick coffee break, smokes a cigarette, and when it comes back, the card it played... is still there.  Gain a copy of whatever BoM copied.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3323
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 09:18:09 am »
0

I'm not sold on BoM/Conspirator, the BoM is played as a Conspirator, you don't play BoM first, then Conspirator.
In a sense, you never played BoM, only Conspirator.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1565
  • Respect: +4360
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 09:29:14 am »
0

BoM/Procession: You play BoM as some card from the Supply twice (same card both times).  Procession takes a quick coffee break, smokes a cigarette, and when it comes back, the card it played has been trashed.  Wait, what was it again?  Procession checks in the trash, and behold, it's a Band of Misfits.  Gain a Action.

Addendum: BoM/Procession/Fortress online:

step 1. Play Procession, choose BoM, choose Fortress. You get the BoM back in hand (correct), you gain a $6 card (correct), somehow the BoM is still a Fortress (bug #1, it left play, it's in your hand now).
step 2. Play another Procession, choose that BoM again (for this step you may have to uncheck "stack duplicate cards"). It's still pretending to be a Fortress, so you don't have to choose. You get it back in hand and gain a $5 card this time around (bug #2, although probably related).

If I remember correctly this used to work in the pre-Adventures age.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2016, 09:47:07 am »
+1

I'm not sold on BoM/Conspirator, the BoM is played as a Conspirator, you don't play BoM first, then Conspirator.
In a sense, you never played BoM, only Conspirator.

No, this is incorrect, though it used to be this way. Until the somewhat recent ruling change.

The thing is, BoM, like every other action card, has "on-play" instructions. You pretend that it has "when you play this" before the text. So BoM doesn't do anything while it's sitting in your hand that changes how it gets played. Instead, you play BoM just like any other action. Then when you do, you follow its instructions, which tell you to play it (again), but this time as a different card.

This has to be this way, because otherwise the text on BoM has no way of actually doing anything. Because it's not under-the-line or something, it's text is just like the text on all other action cards. The text can't have any effect on the game until that card is played.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

mameluke

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 377
  • Respect: +440
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 03:55:54 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7011
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9707
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 03:56:51 pm »
+2

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 04:20:29 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that, along with many other possibilities, was considered.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6460
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7817
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2016, 04:25:22 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5138
  • Respect: +21067
    • View Profile
Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2016, 06:47:30 pm »
+5

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
I tried having it gain the card. It just empties piles so fast. Multiple versions tried this though.

I tried having it gain a card, then return that card to the supply. People just endlessly forgot to return the card. Maybe something could have reminded them well enough; I did not have the technology at the time.

I tried having it play a card without moving it. For all of your Band of Misfits solutions, consider duration cards and Feast. Here I was not satisfied with how the weird cases resolved.

I tried a choose one - Band of Misfits where the cards costing less than it are always Woodcutter, Throne Room, Peddler. It's not much like Band of Misfits. But you know. It's a thing you can try and I tried it. This was known as the Morphling solution, after the origin story behind that Magic card (they wanted to reprint Clone but were told the rules were too complex).

And I tried just not having Band of Misfits. That didn't work either. I gave it a good long try though.

In the end there it is. As the saying goes, we hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.157 seconds with 20 queries.