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Author Topic: +Card token and when-you-play  (Read 21888 times)

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AJD

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+Card token and when-you-play
« on: April 27, 2015, 12:12:40 pm »
+3

If my +Card token is on an Attack and I have Urchin in play, do I get +1 Card from the token before or after I trash the Urchin and get the Mercenary? Or do they happen at the same time (and therefore I choose the order)?
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GendoIkari

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2015, 12:19:52 pm »
0

I am relatively sure that the +1 card token basically adds "+1 card" to the beginning of the card text. Which means that Urchin now reads:

+1 card
+1 card
+1 action
....
________
......

So you would get the Mercenary first, just like you get him before you draw the card for regular Urchin.
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AJD

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2015, 12:33:01 pm »
+1

That could well be! On the other hand, the rules say "When the player whose token it is plays a card from that pile, that player first gets the bonus," and "when the player… plays a card" suggests the same timing as Urchin's "when you play another Attack".
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2015, 01:47:45 pm »
+6

If my +Card token is on an Attack and I have Urchin in play, do I get +1 Card from the token before or after I trash the Urchin and get the Mercenary? Or do they happen at the same time (and therefore I choose the order)?
You get the +1 Card first. First, it says first. It has to be timed and space is at a premium so all it says is "first." The rulebook example turn has it ahead of any resolution of the played card. For the most part it plays just like the +1 Card is on the card as a top line. But if it matters, that part happens first, like it says.

You do get to pointlessly choose the order between different tokens if you have more than one on a pile.
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2015, 02:29:24 pm »
0

If my +Card token is on an Attack and I have Urchin in play, do I get +1 Card from the token before or after I trash the Urchin and get the Mercenary? Or do they happen at the same time (and therefore I choose the order)?
You get the +1 Card first. First, it says first. It has to be timed and space is at a premium so all it says is "first." The rulebook example turn has it ahead of any resolution of the played card. For the most part it plays just like the +1 Card is on the card as a top line. But if it matters, that part happens first, like it says.

You do get to pointlessly choose the order between different tokens if you have more than one on a pile.

Oh, the tokens don't trigger on when-play, but before that. Ok. So either this is a new time - a new trigger, or we could say that it's when-you-would-play, just like Band of Misfits. That would also explain exactly how you get the bonus from the tokens both on BoM and on the card you choose. Both the token bonus and the BoM instruction to choose a card happens at the same time. You choose the order, which doesn't matter. Then you're going to play the chosen card, but before that you get the token bonus from that pile too. Then you actually play the chosen card.

What about the trashing token? Does it trigger on when-buy, or before that? It matters, since there are other when-buy abilities.

GendoIkari

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2015, 02:38:11 pm »
0

If my +Card token is on an Attack and I have Urchin in play, do I get +1 Card from the token before or after I trash the Urchin and get the Mercenary? Or do they happen at the same time (and therefore I choose the order)?
You get the +1 Card first. First, it says first. It has to be timed and space is at a premium so all it says is "first." The rulebook example turn has it ahead of any resolution of the played card. For the most part it plays just like the +1 Card is on the card as a top line. But if it matters, that part happens first, like it says.

You do get to pointlessly choose the order between different tokens if you have more than one on a pile.

Oh, the tokens don't trigger on when-play, but before that.

This isn't how I read his response. Sounds like he was saying that they DO trigger on-play, but the normal thing of getting to order your when-play effects is overridden because these on-play effects specify that they are "first".
Quote
What about the trashing token? Does it trigger on when-buy, or before that? It matters, since there are other when-buy abilities.

Plan does not have the "first" in it's wording, so I'm guessing that you choose the order.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 02:39:30 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2015, 03:20:14 pm »
+1

Oh, the tokens don't trigger on when-play, but before that.

This isn't how I read his response. Sounds like he was saying that they DO trigger on-play, but the normal thing of getting to order your when-play effects is overridden because these on-play effects specify that they are "first".

Well, when-play is a moment in time, when several things can happen simultaneously. (Then you get to order them to resolve them.) Since this is "first", meaning before all those events, it sounds like it's not at the same moment in time. There could be several tokens to resolve, and you get to order them. Per known Dominion rules up until now, you get to order events that happen at the same time. Since we're talking about two different groups of triggered events that you can order internally but not mix, it's a little weird to think of them as all happening at the same time.

Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2015, 03:55:12 pm »
+3

What about the trashing token? Does it trigger on when-buy, or before that? It matters, since there are other when-buy abilities.
The trashing token creates a normal when-buy trigger, ordered however you want relative to other when-buy triggers that happen at the same time.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2015, 04:24:53 pm »
+1

If my +Card token is on an Attack and I have Urchin in play, do I get +1 Card from the token before or after I trash the Urchin and get the Mercenary? Or do they happen at the same time (and therefore I choose the order)?
You get the +1 Card first. First, it says first. It has to be timed and space is at a premium so all it says is "first." The rulebook example turn has it ahead of any resolution of the played card. For the most part it plays just like the +1 Card is on the card as a top line. But if it matters, that part happens first, like it says.

You do get to pointlessly choose the order between different tokens if you have more than one on a pile.

This, to me, suggests that +1 Card token on Band of Misfits gives you +1 Card when you play Band of Misfits, because "first" happens before "Play this as".
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 04:26:36 pm »
0

What about the trashing token? Does it trigger on when-buy, or before that? It matters, since there are other when-buy abilities.
The trashing token creates a normal when-buy trigger, ordered however you want relative to other when-buy triggers that happen at the same time.

Thanks.
Any ruling on Throne Room on BoM with token?
If the token bonus really comes before play, I can see a case for TR not giving the bonus on the second play.

Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 04:52:02 pm »
+5

Any ruling on Throne Room on BoM with token?
If the token bonus really comes before play, I can see a case for TR not giving the bonus on the second play.
So far the ruling is, you get bonuses for tokens on BoM once and for ones on the card twice. I have +1 Card on BoM and +$1 on Chapel, I Throne Room BoM and pick Chapel, I get +1 Card +$2. BoM is no longer BoM the second time.

I like the notion that somehow things are more acceptable now due to the "first" on the tokens but I haven't given it any more thought.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 04:59:52 pm »
+1

Oh, the tokens don't trigger on when-play, but before that.

This isn't how I read his response. Sounds like he was saying that they DO trigger on-play, but the normal thing of getting to order your when-play effects is overridden because these on-play effects specify that they are "first".

Well, when-play is a moment in time, when several things can happen simultaneously. (Then you get to order them to resolve them.) Since this is "first", meaning before all those events, it sounds like it's not at the same moment in time. There could be several tokens to resolve, and you get to order them. Per known Dominion rules up until now, you get to order events that happen at the same time. Since we're talking about two different groups of triggered events that you can order internally but not mix, it's a little weird to think of them as all happening at the same time.

No, it's not "first" meaning before all those events. The events trigger at the exact same time ("when you play the card"). When you play the card, both things trigger.. the token's "when you play" and Urchin's "when you play". But even though both trigger at the same time, you can't choose the order like you normally could, because the order is chosen for you buy the fact that one of them says you have to resolve it "first".
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 05:14:12 pm »
0

No, it's not "first" meaning before all those events.

I was talking about when you resolve these event, so yes, it is. The rest (that is, the triggering) is open for interpretation. It could be two different times, like I said, or all at the same time with added rules about which events can be resolved before which other events, like you said. I just thought my interpretation was less complex and more in line with how things have worked up until now.

The actual cards/Events say "when you play" though, so your version is more in line with the that.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 05:16:08 pm by Jeebus »
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 06:59:11 pm »
+1

So, here's how I can reconcile having all current rulings on "playing stuff" work: you have a top-level instruction called "Play a card N times."  Most things have you do it with N = 1, but Throne Room and friends have N = 2 or N = 3.

Code: [Select]
Play CARD N Times:

# Resolve any BoM-style effects
while CARD has any "play this as" effects:
A. if there are any +1 Bonus tokens on CARD's pile, process their instructions
CARD becomes whatever you're playing it as


move CARD into play

# "Lock in" Throne Room's idea of the card
INSTRUCTIONS = CARD's current instructions

N times:
B. resolve any "when you play" instructions (including tokens)
record "play" count for Conspirator, Crossroads, etc.
carry out INSTRUCTIONS

The issue I have is with the two steps labeled A and B.  You must process +1 Bonus tokens in both those places: A to get tokens on BoM and again in B to get tokens on anything else.

And the question is: why? do those +1 tokens just have a special kind of "when you play" instruction that gets evaluated at both those times in the procedure?  Or are we actually supposed to evaluate all "when you play" instructions at both A and B?

The answer now matters for Champion (with Diadem turning Actions into coins).  If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, do you treat Champion's "when you play" the same way you treat the token's "when you play" and evaluate at both A and B, coming out with one more action than you started with?

Or do you treat Champion's "when you play" effect differently from the tokens' "when you play" effects and only evaluate it at B, meaning you end up with the same number of actions you started with?
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 07:11:56 pm »
+1

So, here's how I can reconcile having all current rulings on "playing stuff" work: you have a top-level instruction called "Play a card N times."  Most things have you do it with N = 1, but Throne Room and friends have N = 2 or N = 3.

Code: [Select]
Play CARD N Times:

# Resolve any BoM-style effects
while CARD has any "play this as" effects:
A. if there are any +1 Bonus tokens on CARD's pile, process their instructions
CARD becomes whatever you're playing it as


move CARD into play

# "Lock in" Throne Room's idea of the card
INSTRUCTIONS = CARD's current instructions

N times:
B. resolve any "when you play" instructions (including tokens)
record "play" count for Conspirator, Crossroads, etc.
carry out INSTRUCTIONS

The issue I have is with the two steps labeled A and B.  You must process +1 Bonus tokens in both those places: A to get tokens on BoM and again in B to get tokens on anything else.

And the question is: why? do those +1 tokens just have a special kind of "when you play" instruction that gets evaluated at both those times in the procedure?  Or are we actually supposed to evaluate all "when you play" instructions at both A and B?

The answer now matters for Champion (with Diadem turning Actions into coins).  If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, do you treat Champion's "when you play" the same way you treat the token's "when you play" and evaluate at both A and B, coming out with one more action than you started with?

Or do you treat Champion's "when you play" effect differently from the tokens' "when you play" effects and only evaluate it at B, meaning you end up with the same number of actions you started with?

First of all, there's a mistake in your B. You resolve the tokens' effects before other when-play effects, so there are two steps there.

As per the ruling on Conspirator, only one card is played, and that is Woodcutter. So that's the only when-play Champion would trigger on.
The tokens are clearly different from other when-play triggers, that's why I thought it fit nicely to view them as being when-would-play. That effectively means they are triggered both on BoM and on Woodcutter, while all when-play effects just see one card played. Of course it also means they are always first.

chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2015, 03:50:07 am »
0

As per the ruling on Conspirator, only one card is played, and that is Woodcutter. So that's the only when-play Champion would trigger on.
We know Conspirator only sees one play of a card, but I don't think we know it shares that timing with "when play" abilities.  You can interpret it as working via a "when play" ability, but it's not phrased that way, so it could also be something with entirely different timing.

Quote
The tokens are clearly different from other when-play triggers
They're clearly different from something. The question is (ignoring that "first" wording for a moment) whether the tokens' "when play" abilities are different from all other "when play" abilities, or whether it's just that all "when play" abilities are different from Conspirator. Either would be valid as far as I can tell (and wouldn't have made a difference in anything before Adventures).

And that's the point of the Champion question. If the answer is "no extra action," that seems to mean your interpretation is correct and that some "when play" is different from other "when play." If the answer is "extra action," then that seems to mean all "when play" abilities share a timing (with the possible exception of that "first" thing) and Conspirator is the odd one out.

(For what it's worth, at this point, I'm leaning toward an interpretation similar to yours.)
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2015, 09:33:37 am »
0

As per the ruling on Conspirator, only one card is played, and that is Woodcutter. So that's the only when-play Champion would trigger on.
We know Conspirator only sees one play of a card, but I don't think we know it shares that timing with "when play" abilities.  You can interpret it as working via a "when play" ability, but it's not phrased that way, so it could also be something with entirely different timing.

Quote
The tokens are clearly different from other when-play triggers
They're clearly different from something. The question is (ignoring that "first" wording for a moment) whether the tokens' "when play" abilities are different from all other "when play" abilities, or whether it's just that all "when play" abilities are different from Conspirator. Either would be valid as far as I can tell (and wouldn't have made a difference in anything before Adventures).

And that's the point of the Champion question. If the answer is "no extra action," that seems to mean your interpretation is correct and that some "when play" is different from other "when play." If the answer is "extra action," then that seems to mean all "when play" abilities share a timing (with the possible exception of that "first" thing) and Conspirator is the odd one out.

(For what it's worth, at this point, I'm leaning toward an interpretation similar to yours.)

All other rulings say that all "when-play" share a timing. It seems that these consist of the cards that React to an Attack being played, pluss Urchin and Champion. This is consistent with "when-gain", "when-buy", "when-would-gain", "when-discard-from-play", "when-trash", "at the start of turn"...
The tokens are the only ones that say "first", so that is what set them apart.

It doesn't have anything to do with Conspirator's timing. Conspirator counts Actions played. In your example one card is played, Woodcutter. Since Champion triggers on a card being played, it triggers once. There can be no other interpretation.

swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2015, 01:28:18 pm »
+1

It doesn't have anything to do with Conspirator's timing. Conspirator counts Actions played. In your example one card is played, Woodcutter. Since Champion triggers on a card being played, it triggers once. There can be no other interpretation.

I'm fine with this interpretation, but it's certainly not entirely unambiguous. If a Throned BoM gives you the BoM tokens once and the copied card's tokens twice then that definitely seems to imply that two separate actions are played the first time. If not, then the tokens' effects seem to be hanging in limbo at some arbitrary point in the card's resolution. By the ruling on the Urchin question, it seems that all tokens resolve before anything else. However, BoM seems to have two possible interpretations: either you play it as BoM and it becomes another card after the first sentence, or it instantly becomes the other card and you effectively never play BoM. By the first interpretation, it seems that Throning it should give you the tokens from each pile once; by the second interpretation, it seems that Throning it should just give you the tokens on the copied pile twice, rendering tokens on BoM entirely ineffective. Donald's ruling of "BoM tokens once, copied tokens twice" really seems to imply that playing BoM should count as playing two actions, as both tokens are triggered. Obviously Donald's word is final and I'm fine with that, but I definitely think this is a contradiction.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:53:31 pm by swedenman »
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2015, 01:47:13 pm »
0

This suddenly has me wondering if TR-Feast should lock in on gaining the same card twice.
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swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2015, 01:51:30 pm »
+1

This suddenly has me wondering if TR-Feast should lock in on gaining the same card twice.

It definitely shouldn't. The only reason a Throned BoM has to be the same card both times is because BoM effectively becomes that card once it's played. If you resolve the full text on Feast twice then there's no reason why it should have to be the same card you gain.
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2015, 02:03:20 pm »
0

This suddenly has me wondering if TR-Feast should lock in on gaining the same card twice.

It definitely shouldn't. The only reason a Throned BoM has to be the same card both times is because BoM effectively becomes that card once it's played. If you resolve the full text on Feast twice then there's no reason why it should have to be the same card you gain.
It's a thought exercise, really.

TR locks in on the played action. In BoM's case it is: TR-BoM(as CardX) meaning the next time you play it, you get BoM(as CardX) which is why there is confusion about which tokens you get.

TR-CardX(+1 Buy) = CardX(+1 Buy) + CardX(+1 Buy)

TR-BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

TR-BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

It just seems counter-intuitive that you lose the BoM token on Throning. It can still lock in as that action card (i.e. BoM(as Feast)) because the action you chose was BoM(as Feast) to play twice.

If you Throne BoM as Feast, you get BoM(as Feast) + BoM(as Feast)

If your BoM has the +1 Action token, and you play it as Feast, you get BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast)

If you Throne your BoM(+1 Action) as Feast, why wouldn't it become BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) + BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) ?

This does not violate what Throne does, or what Band does.
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swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 02:42:24 pm »
0

This suddenly has me wondering if TR-Feast should lock in on gaining the same card twice.

It definitely shouldn't. The only reason a Throned BoM has to be the same card both times is because BoM effectively becomes that card once it's played. If you resolve the full text on Feast twice then there's no reason why it should have to be the same card you gain.
It's a thought exercise, really.

TR locks in on the played action. In BoM's case it is: TR-BoM(as CardX) meaning the next time you play it, you get BoM(as CardX) which is why there is confusion about which tokens you get.

TR-CardX(+1 Buy) = CardX(+1 Buy) + CardX(+1 Buy)

TR-BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

TR-BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

It just seems counter-intuitive that you lose the BoM token on Throning. It can still lock in as that action card (i.e. BoM(as Feast)) because the action you chose was BoM(as Feast) to play twice.

If you Throne BoM as Feast, you get BoM(as Feast) + BoM(as Feast)

If your BoM has the +1 Action token, and you play it as Feast, you get BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast)

If you Throne your BoM(+1 Action) as Feast, why wouldn't it become BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) + BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) ?

This does not violate what Throne does, or what Band does.

I don't see what this has to do with TR-Feast locking in on gaining the same card. BoM literally becomes the copied card (well, "literally" in the context of the game), so it has to be the same on the second play off of TR. It's the only card in the game that works that way. Throne Room doesn't double the effect of playing a card once, it just plays the card twice.

As for this interpretation of the TR-BoM w/ tokens issue, I think it's feasible, but I still don't think it makes the most sense. As I understand the wording on BoM, it sounds like you never actually "play" BoM. You just play the card it's copying. That interpretation is kind of unfortunate in that it would mean putting tokens on BoM is completely worthless (maybe barring a few edge cases, but I don't actually think so), but I also think it makes the most sense. There are a handful of other interpretations that I think could be justified (get the tokens on both piles twice, get the tokens on both piles once, get the tokens on BoM twice, and get the tokens on the copied pile twice could all potentially make sense depending on the precise meaning of the wording on BoM, I think), but I just don't understand the rationale behind getting the BoM tokens once and the copied pile's tokens twice.

For clarity (if anyone wants it), here are the reasons I think those 4 interpretations could be justified:

Tokens on both piles twice: BoM is a card from the BoM pile and an honorary card from the copied pile. Therefore, it gets both tokens on both plays.

Tokens on both piles once: It is BoM on the first play, becomes the copied card halfway through resolving it, and is the copied card on the second play.

Tokens on BoM twice: BoM, as a physical card, is from the BoM pile, so it only gets those tokens.

Tokens on copied pile twice: BoM, for all intents and purposes, becomes the copied card the instant you play it. It is no longer BoM at this point, so it only gets the tokens on the copied pile.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 02:52:10 pm »
+2

I'm fine with this interpretation, but it's certainly not entirely unambiguous. If a Throned BoM gives you the BoM tokens once and the copied card's tokens twice then that definitely seems to imply that two separate actions are played the first time. If not, then the tokens' effects seem to be hanging in limbo at some arbitrary point in the card's resolution. By the ruling on the Urchin question, it seems that all tokens resolve before anything else. However, BoM seems to have two possible interpretations: either you play it as BoM and it becomes another card after the first sentence, or it instantly becomes the other card and you effectively never play BoM. By the first interpretation, it seems that Throning it should give you the tokens from each pile once; by the second interpretation, it seems that Throning it should just give you the tokens on the copied pile twice, rendering tokens on BoM entirely ineffective. Donald's ruling of "BoM tokens once, copied tokens twice" really seems to imply that playing BoM should count as playing two actions, as both tokens are triggered. Obviously Donald's word is final and I'm fine with that, but I definitely think this is a contradiction.
I see what you're saying.

The line of reasoning on BoM / tokens is that people are going to think that BoM was played, they are going to expect to get that bonus; and they are going to think the other card was played too, they will expect that bonus. The second time you resolve a throned BoM, it's no longer BoM, so you don't get that token bonus.

The line of reasoning on BoM / Conspirator is that BoM was played as something else so only one thing was played.

Let's check the FAQ!

Quote
Band of Misfits: When you play this, you pick an Action card from the Supply that costs less than it, and treat this card as if it were the card you chose. Normally this will just mean that you follow the instructions on the card you picked. So if you play Band of Misfits and Fortress is in the Supply, you could pick that and then you would draw a card and get +2 Actions, since that's what Fortress does when you play it. Band of Misfits also gets the chosen card's cost, name, and types. If you use Band of Misfits as a card that trashes itself, such as Death Cart, you will trash the Band of Misfits (at which point it will just be a Band of Misfits card in the trash). If you use Band of Misfits as a duration card (from Seaside), Band of Misfits will stay in play until next turn, just like the duration card would. If you use Band of Misfits as a Throne Room (from Dominion), King's Court (from Prosperity), or Procession, and use that effect to play a duration card, Band of Misfits will similarly stay in play. If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card. For example if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you'll automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it's a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress). If you use Band of Misfits as a card that does something during Clean-up, such as Hermit, it will do that thing during Clean-up. When you play Horn of Plenty (from Cornucopia), it counts Band of Misfits as whatever Band of Misfits was played as; for example if you play a Band of Misfits as a Fortress, and then play another Band of Misfits as a Scavenger, and then play Horn of Plenty, you will gain a card costing up to $3. Band of Misfits can only be played as a visible card in the Supply; it cannot be played as a card after its pile runs out, and cannot be played as a non-Supply card like Mercenary; it can be played as the top card of the Ruins pile, but no other Ruins, and can only be played as Sir Martin when that's the top card of the Knights pile.
This refers to "playing Band of Misfits" multiple times. I mean of course you can "play Band of Misfits." And if you play it, you played it, right? So getting a token bonus for BoM seems consistent, and Conspirator should count BoM as being played.

For the card you copy with BoM, either you should both get the token bonus and count it for Conspirator, or not get the token bonus and not count it for Conspirator. I am leaning towards getting the token bonus and counting the card. If Conspirator didn't count it then maybe there's some window of things a card does that's getting skipped and that could break something.
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2015, 03:01:51 pm »
0

TR locks in on the played action. In BoM's case it is: TR-BoM(as CardX) meaning the next time you play it, you get BoM(as CardX) which is why there is confusion about which tokens you get.

TR-CardX(+1 Buy) = CardX(+1 Buy) + CardX(+1 Buy)

TR-BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

TR-BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

It just seems counter-intuitive that you lose the BoM token on Throning. It can still lock in as that action card (i.e. BoM(as Feast)) because the action you chose was BoM(as Feast) to play twice.

If you Throne BoM as Feast, you get BoM(as Feast) + BoM(as Feast)

If your BoM has the +1 Action token, and you play it as Feast, you get BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast)

If you Throne your BoM(+1 Action) as Feast, why wouldn't it become BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) + BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) ?

This does not violate what Throne does, or what Band does.

I don't see what this has to do with TR-Feast locking in on gaining the same card. BoM literally becomes the copied card (well, "literally" in the context of the game), so it has to be the same on the second play off of TR. It's the only card in the game that works that way. Throne Room doesn't double the effect of playing a card once, it just plays the card twice.

As for this interpretation of the TR-BoM w/ tokens issue, I think it's feasible, but I still don't think it makes the most sense. As I understand the wording on BoM, it sounds like you never actually "play" BoM. You just play the card it's copying. That interpretation is kind of unfortunate in that it would mean putting tokens on BoM is completely worthless (maybe barring a few edge cases, but I don't actually think so), but I also think it makes the most sense. There are a handful of other interpretations that I think could be justified (get the tokens on both piles twice, get the tokens on both piles once, get the tokens on BoM twice, and get the tokens on the copied pile twice could all potentially make sense depending on the precise meaning of the wording on BoM, I think), but I just don't understand the rationale behind getting the BoM tokens once and the copied pile's tokens twice.

For clarity (if anyone wants it), here are the reasons I think those 4 interpretations could be justified:

Tokens on both piles twice: BoM is a card from the BoM pile and an honorary card from the copied pile. Therefore, it gets both tokens on both plays.

Tokens on both piles once: It is BoM on the first play, becomes the copied card halfway through resolving it, and is the copied card on the second play.

Tokens on BoM twice: BoM, as a physical card, is from the BoM pile, so it only gets those tokens.

Tokens on copied pile twice: BoM, for all intents and purposes, becomes the copied card the instant you play it. It is no longer BoM at this point, so it only gets the tokens on the copied pile.
We I did type it as "playing the card twice" instead of "doubling the card" so I'm not sure if that was agreement or misunderstand.

I think it's counter-intuitive to think that BoM is only BoM the first time you play it. It's either never BoM, or it is BoM(as CardX) both times. This doesn't matter for Throne normally, but with tokens caring about piles, I don't see how it can pretend it doesn't exist on the second play.

We know TR-BoM "locks" in on the card.

TR-BoM(as CardX) = BoM(as CardX) + BoM(as CardX) <> BoM(as CardX) + CardX
[These effects are the same, but they are different concepts]

I'm saying, that intuitively, you should get the BoM tokens both times. The BoM is played twice, but it is played both times as BoM(as CardX). If that is not the case, then BoM is never played, and never gets bonuses from tokens.

I don't see how it can work only once.
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swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2015, 03:11:52 pm »
0

TR locks in on the played action. In BoM's case it is: TR-BoM(as CardX) meaning the next time you play it, you get BoM(as CardX) which is why there is confusion about which tokens you get.

TR-CardX(+1 Buy) = CardX(+1 Buy) + CardX(+1 Buy)

TR-BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

TR-BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) = BoM(+1 Action)(as CardX(+1 Buy)) + BoM(as CardX(+1 Buy))

It just seems counter-intuitive that you lose the BoM token on Throning. It can still lock in as that action card (i.e. BoM(as Feast)) because the action you chose was BoM(as Feast) to play twice.

If you Throne BoM as Feast, you get BoM(as Feast) + BoM(as Feast)

If your BoM has the +1 Action token, and you play it as Feast, you get BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast)

If you Throne your BoM(+1 Action) as Feast, why wouldn't it become BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) + BoM(+1 Action)(as Feast) ?

This does not violate what Throne does, or what Band does.

I don't see what this has to do with TR-Feast locking in on gaining the same card. BoM literally becomes the copied card (well, "literally" in the context of the game), so it has to be the same on the second play off of TR. It's the only card in the game that works that way. Throne Room doesn't double the effect of playing a card once, it just plays the card twice.

As for this interpretation of the TR-BoM w/ tokens issue, I think it's feasible, but I still don't think it makes the most sense. As I understand the wording on BoM, it sounds like you never actually "play" BoM. You just play the card it's copying. That interpretation is kind of unfortunate in that it would mean putting tokens on BoM is completely worthless (maybe barring a few edge cases, but I don't actually think so), but I also think it makes the most sense. There are a handful of other interpretations that I think could be justified (get the tokens on both piles twice, get the tokens on both piles once, get the tokens on BoM twice, and get the tokens on the copied pile twice could all potentially make sense depending on the precise meaning of the wording on BoM, I think), but I just don't understand the rationale behind getting the BoM tokens once and the copied pile's tokens twice.

For clarity (if anyone wants it), here are the reasons I think those 4 interpretations could be justified:

Tokens on both piles twice: BoM is a card from the BoM pile and an honorary card from the copied pile. Therefore, it gets both tokens on both plays.

Tokens on both piles once: It is BoM on the first play, becomes the copied card halfway through resolving it, and is the copied card on the second play.

Tokens on BoM twice: BoM, as a physical card, is from the BoM pile, so it only gets those tokens.

Tokens on copied pile twice: BoM, for all intents and purposes, becomes the copied card the instant you play it. It is no longer BoM at this point, so it only gets the tokens on the copied pile.
We I did type it as "playing the card twice" instead of "doubling the card" so I'm not sure if that was agreement or misunderstand.

I think it's counter-intuitive to think that BoM is only BoM the first time you play it. It's either never BoM, or it is BoM(as CardX) both times. This doesn't matter for Throne normally, but with tokens caring about piles, I don't see how it can pretend it doesn't exist on the second play.

We know TR-BoM "locks" in on the card.

TR-BoM(as CardX) = BoM(as CardX) + BoM(as CardX) <> BoM(as CardX) + CardX
[These effects are the same, but they are different concepts]

I'm saying, that intuitively, you should get the BoM tokens both times. The BoM is played twice, but it is played both times as BoM(as CardX). If that is not the case, then BoM is never played, and never gets bonuses from tokens.

I don't see how it can work only once.

Well, I still don't understand what this has to do with TR-Feast, but I guess I'll just move past that. In the instance where I said you should only get the BoM tokens once, that was under the interpretation that BoM is BoM until you finish resolving the "Play this as if..." sentence. Therefore, it's no longer BoM for the second play. By that interpretation, you only get the BoM tokens once.

For the card you copy with BoM, either you should both get the token bonus and count it for Conspirator, or not get the token bonus and not count it for Conspirator. I am leaning towards getting the token bonus and counting the card. If Conspirator didn't count it then maybe there's some window of things a card does that's getting skipped and that could break something.

I like this ruling. Sort of like the way TR-Action counts as playing 3 actions for Conspirator, BoM copying an action could count as 2.
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