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Author Topic: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?  (Read 5814 times)

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Morghas

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Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« on: May 18, 2016, 12:08:20 am »
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Soooo...

The upcoming Empires expansion is making me think about dominion all day every day... Woo woo! I was reading in one of the previews of Empires, that despite pleas from some people here Donald wont put in any cards into new expansions that rely on cards or items from previous expansions because that would then annoy the people who dont have those expansions. This is fair enough BUT has an expansion expansion ever been discussed?? An expansions that says on the box "an expansion for Dominion expansions", and which includes cards that can combo or refer to any added cards or items throughout all the expansions? It feels as though this would satisfy us dedicated fans who own them all and not annoy the people who dont because they could easily avoid the expansion. I am sure this is not an original idea but I couldn't find anything with my lazy research skills already written on this topic.

What would the general consensus be as to whether this would be a worth while endeavour or not? A part of me thinks it would be awesome! But another part thinks maybe there wouldn't be as many possibilities as I think there would be? If you cast you gaze on this thread from the Holy Land of Dominion, Donald, I would love to hear as to whether you would enjoy making an expansion of this vein, and if you think there is enough material that would be able to be expanded and have point not just more of the same?

A quick think of all the features that could be combined, expanded or called on from action, event or landmark cards would be: coin tokens, various sea side mats, embargo tokens, potions, colony + platinum, victory chips, shelters, ruins, spoils, tavern mat, supply pile tokens, debt tokens.

Merry Empires everyone!

Morg.
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enfynet

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 12:23:59 am »
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As a physical printed copy, I don't see it happening. You are immediately limiting your customers to the people that own the specific referenced expansions.
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Donald X.

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 12:46:10 am »
+6

What would the general consensus be as to whether this would be a worth while endeavour or not? A part of me thinks it would be awesome! But another part thinks maybe there wouldn't be as many possibilities as I think there would be? If you cast you gaze on this thread from the Holy Land of Dominion, Donald, I would love to hear as to whether you would enjoy making an expansion of this vein, and if you think there is enough material that would be able to be expanded and have point not just more of the same?
This is one of those cases where it's important to compare something to "other things" rather than to "nothing." However good it looks compared to "nothing," it's not good enough when compared to "other things." So I would do other things instead.

Adventures brought back Duration cards, and so was in some sense a sequel to Seaside; Empires brought back VP tokens, and is in some sense a sequel to Prosperity. A general expansion to expansions though, it's just not good enough compared to whatever other options there are.
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ConMan

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 01:04:20 am »
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It's been discussed, and the problem isn't that "people who don't own the right combination of sets don't need to worry about it", it's that "people who don't own the right combination of sets don't buy it". Essentially, it's a product whose market is smaller than that of a normal expansion. And that's the kind of numbers that don't make figures for Jay and Donald.

That said.

It's an interesting design space, and I strongly recommend that you think about ways you could combine the mechanics in a fan card. I wished that the Treasure Chest competition had included space for cross-set cards, and if I were to ever scrounge up the motivation to run such a contest I would definitely think of ways to do it.

Also, it's fair to say that *some* cross-set combinations are feasible, and Empires essentially shows how they can work. The trick is to identify what mechanics don't require much in the way of extra components or rules, plus some set of mechanics that do require those things, and pick combinations thereof. So no Potions + VP tokens, but there's nothing immediately wrong with Events + VP tokens or Durations + when-buy effects.
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Donald X.

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 01:40:17 am »
+8

It's been discussed, and the problem isn't that "people who don't own the right combination of sets don't need to worry about it", it's that "people who don't own the right combination of sets don't buy it". Essentially, it's a product whose market is smaller than that of a normal expansion. And that's the kind of numbers that don't make figures for Jay and Donald.
It makes sense to talk about the money, and I've used that exact argument, but really it wouldn't matter. There's more total happiness if I make something for a bigger audience. And I probably enjoy it more myself. It's nice that it makes more money too, but that doesn't have to be the argument.
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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 01:48:00 am »
+4

It makes sense to talk about the money, and I've used that exact argument, but really it wouldn't matter. There's more total happiness if I make something for a bigger audience. And I probably enjoy it more myself. It's nice that it makes more money too, but that doesn't have to be the argument.

Ladies and gentlemen, the wisdom of Donald X. Vaccarino.

Edit:  That really sounds a bit sarcastic now that I read it, but very much was not meant as such.  Donald, you are wise.  And awesome.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 01:49:17 am by Kirian »
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Morghas

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 04:03:07 am »
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Hey hey!

Thanks for the replies team. Yes when you put it like that, comparing it to other things like all the epic new stuff in Empires as opposed to just blissful nothing it does make it less appealing, let alone the reduced market.

What an efficient thread this was!

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Haddock

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 04:56:16 am »
+1

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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 03:02:05 pm »
+1

If you really want Events with Potion in the cost, or cards that give you the choice between VP tokens and coin tokens, you can always make your own! With blackjack! And hookers!
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Witherweaver

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 04:44:02 pm »
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It makes sense to talk about the money, and I've used that exact argument, but really it wouldn't matter. There's more total happiness if I make something for a bigger audience. And I probably enjoy it more myself. It's nice that it makes more money too, but that doesn't have to be the argument.

Ladies and gentlemen, the wisdom of Donald X. Vaccarino.

Edit:  That really sounds a bit sarcastic now that I read it, but very much was not meant as such.  Donald, you are wise.  And awesome.

I prefer to read the edit with sarcasm as well.
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Mezbomber

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 04:59:18 am »
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The only reason I'd ever want an expansion to an expansion would be if it supplemented the potions, as I find it a really intriguing mechanic in the game that just didn't reach its potential. New additions like events and landmarks could really spice up the potion game quite easily, not to mention unique treasure or victory cards that could incorporate potions. I don't know... Dominion has become a pretty awesome game, but could easily suffer from an over abundance of new mechanics in potential future expansion, so supplementing some of the less occurring mechanics seems like an excellent direction, were this game to continue growing. I'd totally be down for more travelers, split piles, and prizes (and alchemy 2.0)
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A Ladder

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 10:47:22 am »
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The only reason I'd ever want an expansion to an expansion would be if it supplemented the potions, as I find it a really intriguing mechanic in the game that just didn't reach its potential...

I agree. Alchemy 2.0 would be great for an expansion. Heck, you could even reprint Potion so that the expansion can have the currency it needs. I'd gladly sacrifice one set of new cards (10 plus the randomizer = 11 Potions, which is really all you would need for a new stack of Potions) to get a whole slew of new Alchemy cards.

Mezbomber

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 06:55:49 pm »
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Re-printing potions would probably be the only way we'd see another potion expansion. It seems easier to do than re-introducing tokens, and empires is already doing that.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 08:37:52 pm »
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The problem is Alchemy is not well-recieved by many casual Dominion players. Me personally, I love the expansion, but $3p is a bad price point, and a lot of people hate Possession. Probably the biggest mistake in Dominion
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Cuzz

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 08:42:05 pm »
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The problem is Alchemy is not well-recieved by many casual Dominion players. Me personally, I love the expansion, but $3p is a bad price point, and a lot of people hate Possession. Probably the biggest mistake in Dominion

Which part of that constitutes a mistake, though? Also, Rebuild?
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Max

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2016, 04:18:25 pm »
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Rebuild vs Possession:

Rebuild: Strategy dominating, ends the game quickly, few strategies beat it.
Possession: No clause to prevent stacking (like outpost), encourages the building of decks which are poor for being possessed and good at possessing often, high cost means that it loses to rushes -- long, slow and resentful games.

I think when I play in a rebuild game I mind less than playing a possession game. Possession isn't the problem though, for me, it's the fact that it stacks and has weird interacts with things like coin tokens.
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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2016, 04:24:57 pm »
+3

Possession is a cool card. It's fun, just play around it.
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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2016, 01:07:55 am »
+1

I've learned to treat Possession as a slow, but possibly strong, gainer.
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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2016, 12:10:00 pm »
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Rebuild's problem is it isn't interactive.
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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2016, 12:28:21 pm »
+1

I think mechanics that don't need components should be able to be in every set. Empires has a duration card that does nothing with it's components, it's just there. Events, landmarks, durations, split piles, overpay, treasure-actions, and on-gain effects can be in any set and I would love to see them come back.

As for expansions to expansions, Guilds is top of my wish list. It was a small expansion so there's still a lot of design space. Overpay on events would be sweet. I would enjoy alchemy but it wasn't as well received as guilds so it should come first IMO.

It's probably to early for this, but I would love to see more reserves.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2016, 09:59:16 am »
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As for expansions to expansions, Guilds is top of my wish list. It was a small expansion so there's still a lot of design space. Overpay on events would be sweet. I would enjoy alchemy but it wasn't as well received as guilds so it should come first IMO.
What if you did both? An option to overpay with a potion could be awesome! Or maybe that's just wishful thinking, and it might just suck as a gameplay mechanic. How to find out: fan cards and playtesting.

Edit: although that begs the question, do the existing rules for the overpay mechanic allow the use of potions? It wouldn't do anything, but just as something interesting if this were to become a thing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 10:02:54 am by Doom_Shark »
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wachsmuth

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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2016, 10:23:36 am »
+2

Edit: although that begs the question, do the existing rules for the overpay mechanic allow the use of potions? It wouldn't do anything, but just as something interesting if this were to become a thing.

You can gain Potion-cost cards with Stonemason by overpaying with Potion (e.g. buy Stonemason, overpay with Potion, gain 2 Transmutes).
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Re: Beyond Empires... An expansion expansion?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2016, 01:59:14 pm »
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Edit: although that begs the question, do the existing rules for the overpay mechanic allow the use of potions? It wouldn't do anything, but just as something interesting if this were to become a thing.

You can gain Potion-cost cards with Stonemason by overpaying with Potion (e.g. buy Stonemason, overpay with Potion, gain 2 Transmutes).
Well that clears that up. It's an interesting idea, though, having the option to use potions to make the card better.
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