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Author Topic: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments Thread  (Read 28341 times)

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DLloyd09

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2016, 09:21:32 pm »
+1

Donate + Fool's Gold; or, The Time I Resigned on Turn Five

(seriously, Donate is so incredibly broken it's not even funny. Might be the first card I ban from hitting the table.)
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2016, 09:22:56 pm »
0

You didn't ban the Page Line or Possession?
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DLloyd09

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2016, 10:24:09 pm »
0

You didn't ban the Page Line or Possession?

Possession can be annoying, but it's hardly as busted as Donate. And what's wrong with the Page line? Champion? At least by that point, it's been about 12 turns and the game is typically on its way towards the end.

We've come close to banning Rebuild, but I enjoy the challenge of trying to find a way to beat it on a given Kingdom. I just don't foresee having the same feeling towards Donate.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2016, 05:45:59 am »
0

I would seriously reconsider banning Possession with the recent rules change.

Haven't played with Donate yet, but it seems pretty broken. Man, I'm falling way behind you guys. :(
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2016, 07:36:54 am »
+3

Donate + Fool's Gold; or, The Time I Resigned on Turn Five

(seriously, Donate is so incredibly broken it's not even funny. Might be the first card I ban from hitting the table.)

I don't understand. Even if Donate is extremely powerful, both players have universal access to it. You can buy it with zero money on the table and at any time in the game. I don't see how it could be broken, just super powerful for both players.
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Donald X.

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2016, 07:58:35 am »
+22

Donate + Fool's Gold; or, The Time I Resigned on Turn Five

(seriously, Donate is so incredibly broken it's not even funny. Might be the first card I ban from hitting the table.)

I don't understand. Even if Donate is extremely powerful, both players have universal access to it. You can buy it with zero money on the table and at any time in the game. I don't see how it could be broken, just super powerful for both players.
To me, Donate is that Event that means the better player will win. It reduces luck more than any other uh card-shaped thing. It's all about having a better plan for how the opening turns will unfold.

So, the idea that Donate is "broken," well you have to explain what it means to be "broken." I think you can argue that Dominion is best with a certain amount of luck, and Donate is over the line there, it reduces luck too much. Complaining about its power level doesn't make much sense to me otherwise.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2016, 08:02:50 am »
+9

uh card-shaped thing.
This is now the standard term to refer to events and cards.
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DLloyd09

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2016, 08:55:40 am »
+2

I don't understand. Even if Donate is extremely powerful, both players have universal access to it. You can buy it with zero money on the table and at any time in the game. I don't see how it could be broken, just super powerful for both players.

Just because everyone can access it doesn't mean it's not broken--at least as I construe what it means to be "broken", which is a card that is wildly imbalanced.

To me, Donate is that Event that means the better player will win. It reduces luck more than any other uh card-shaped thing. It's all about having a better plan for how the opening turns will unfold.

So, the idea that Donate is "broken," well you have to explain what it means to be "broken." I think you can argue that Dominion is best with a certain amount of luck, and Donate is over the line there, it reduces luck too much. Complaining about its power level doesn't make much sense to me otherwise.

For the amount of power Donate offers, it doesn't seem to have a cost that's aligned. You derive an instant amazing benefit at the expense of to deal with on your next turn(s) (and more realistically it's or since you'll pay down some of the debt immediately). I don't think, for example, that one should create a card that costs that reads "+6 Cards, +4 Actions, +3 Buys, +, +8" and then claim "well, it's not really 'broken' because everybody can afford on Turns 1 and 2, you just object to the card's power level." (other card design principles aside, this is what I feel Chris is me's response inevitably leads to)

I didn't resign because I would have lost--though I probably would have, my husband is a better player than me--I resigned because the end was so inevitable and ridiculous the second Donate was purchased that for me it sucks all the fun out of even playing. Even in games when I lose I still have fun, but when Donate is on the board the Kingdom itself feels like it becomes almost irrelevant and the game degenerates into a race; in my opinion, it's a race to the bottom. I feel this way about almost any Kingdom where there is one clear strategy, it's just less enjoyable to play; much more fun is seeing how two divergent strategies play out.

Donate seems to be the biggest manifestation of this issue for me. It becomes a "must-buy" for everyone and it makes deck management irrelevant. "Am I going to line up my Curse with my Chapel? Have I put myself in a position where I'm pretty likely to end up with a total cost of among cards I no longer need so that I can Forge them into a Colony? Aww, screw it, now I can just get rid of all the stuff I don't need anymore indiscriminately instead of cleverly!" Like, at that point why not start each game with 7 Golds and 3 Provinces?

Hm, maybe my gripe really is just with the mitigation of luck. Luck isn't a huge element of Dominion, but the fact that it lingers on the sidelines is part of what makes the game interesting.

I could probably go on, but I'd mostly be repeating the same thoughts using other examples. This was posted in Semi-Interesting moments and it seems I've sparked a discussion that is more than semi-interesting. Sorry, folks!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 09:16:16 am by DLloyd09 »
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Donald X.

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2016, 09:02:42 am »
+7

Just because everyone can access it doesn't mean it's not broken--at least as I construe what it means to be "broken", which is a card that is wildly imbalanced.
I am 100% never the guy arguing that "everyone can access it thus it's not broken."

"Broken" to me is entirely about what game experience you get. It is okay by me if a card essentially changes the rules, provided that the game-with-changed-rules is fun.

Like, at that point why not start each game with 7 Platinums and 3 Colonies?
Donate pushes skill; starting with 7 Platinums and 3 Colonies pushes away from skill.

As always, feel free to hate cards for whatever reason and not play with them for whatever reason. I'm not trying to talk anyone into liking Donate.
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DLloyd09

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2016, 09:14:28 am »
0

I am 100% never the guy arguing that "everyone can access it thus it's not broken."

Sorry, bad quoting. That was more responding to Chris is me. I'll edit my post to make that clearer.

Like, at that point why not start each game with 7 Platinums and 3 Colonies?
Donate pushes skill; starting with 7 Platinums and 3 Colonies pushes away from skill.

As always, feel free to hate cards for whatever reason and not play with them for whatever reason. I'm not trying to talk anyone into liking Donate.

Fair response! Thanks for hearing me out.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 09:16:57 am by DLloyd09 »
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2016, 09:31:34 am »
+6

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2016, 12:40:51 pm »
0

Even in games when I lose I still have fun, but when Donate is on the board the Kingdom itself feels like it becomes almost irrelevant and the game degenerates into a race; in my opinion, it's a race to the bottom.

The game is a race though. That isn't a very solid argument, for the entire point of the game is to win before the other player does.

However, you present another argument which is much, much stronger.

Quote
I feel this way about almost any Kingdom where there is one clear strategy, it's just less enjoyable to play; much more fun is seeing how two divergent strategies play out. Donate seems to be the biggest manifestation of this issue for me. It becomes a "must-buy" for everyone and it makes deck management irrelevant. "Am I going to line up my Curse with my Chapel? Have I put myself in a position where I'm pretty likely to end up with a total cost of among cards I no longer need so that I can Forge them into a Colony? Aww, screw it, now I can just get rid of all the stuff I don't need anymore indiscriminately instead of cleverly!" Like, at that point why not start each game with 7 Golds and 3 Provinces?

And this is why I may end up hating Donate, much like I despise Champion currently. It doesn't feel like Dominion anymore. Donate looks like tons of fun, but Champion also looked like tons of fun to me before. I won't know until I play with it, but Donate has that same potential to warp the game too much. I don't think it will be as bad as Champion, as you still have to build your engine, and you still have to decide when it is best to buy Donate, and you still have limited Actions. I don't know how it will be yet, but this second argument is a lot stronger. Is Donate too monolithic?
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2016, 05:40:25 pm »
+8

explain what it means to be "broken."
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2016, 09:31:30 am »
+3

I found out that if you've been possessed the previous turn, you cannot get a Mission turn. Yuck.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2016, 03:58:49 pm »
+5

I gained the last Curse with Duplicate to three-pile and win the game.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2016, 04:34:02 pm »
+2

Even in games when I lose I still have fun, but when Donate is on the board the Kingdom itself feels like it becomes almost irrelevant and the game degenerates into a race; in my opinion, it's a race to the bottom.

The game is a race though. That isn't a very solid argument, for the entire point of the game is to win before the other player does.

However, you present another argument which is much, much stronger.

Quote
I feel this way about almost any Kingdom where there is one clear strategy, it's just less enjoyable to play; much more fun is seeing how two divergent strategies play out. Donate seems to be the biggest manifestation of this issue for me. It becomes a "must-buy" for everyone and it makes deck management irrelevant. "Am I going to line up my Curse with my Chapel? Have I put myself in a position where I'm pretty likely to end up with a total cost of among cards I no longer need so that I can Forge them into a Colony? Aww, screw it, now I can just get rid of all the stuff I don't need anymore indiscriminately instead of cleverly!" Like, at that point why not start each game with 7 Golds and 3 Provinces?

And this is why I may end up hating Donate, much like I despise Champion currently. It doesn't feel like Dominion anymore. Donate looks like tons of fun, but Champion also looked like tons of fun to me before. I won't know until I play with it, but Donate has that same potential to warp the game too much. I don't think it will be as bad as Champion, as you still have to build your engine, and you still have to decide when it is best to buy Donate, and you still have limited Actions. I don't know how it will be yet, but this second argument is a lot stronger. Is Donate too monolithic?

I know I'm in a minority here, but I actually love Champion.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2016, 07:25:40 pm »
0

Even in games when I lose I still have fun, but when Donate is on the board the Kingdom itself feels like it becomes almost irrelevant and the game degenerates into a race; in my opinion, it's a race to the bottom.

The game is a race though. That isn't a very solid argument, for the entire point of the game is to win before the other player does.

However, you present another argument which is much, much stronger.

Quote
I feel this way about almost any Kingdom where there is one clear strategy, it's just less enjoyable to play; much more fun is seeing how two divergent strategies play out. Donate seems to be the biggest manifestation of this issue for me. It becomes a "must-buy" for everyone and it makes deck management irrelevant. "Am I going to line up my Curse with my Chapel? Have I put myself in a position where I'm pretty likely to end up with a total cost of among cards I no longer need so that I can Forge them into a Colony? Aww, screw it, now I can just get rid of all the stuff I don't need anymore indiscriminately instead of cleverly!" Like, at that point why not start each game with 7 Golds and 3 Provinces?

And this is why I may end up hating Donate, much like I despise Champion currently. It doesn't feel like Dominion anymore. Donate looks like tons of fun, but Champion also looked like tons of fun to me before. I won't know until I play with it, but Donate has that same potential to warp the game too much. I don't think it will be as bad as Champion, as you still have to build your engine, and you still have to decide when it is best to buy Donate, and you still have limited Actions. I don't know how it will be yet, but this second argument is a lot stronger. Is Donate too monolithic?

I know I'm in a minority here, but I actually love Champion.

You know, Champion is basically a card that (overly) simplifies the late game but early game decisions and luck still matter. Donate on the other hand (overly) simplifies the early game.

In practice, I don't mind the effect Champion has on the game. I might mind how Donate affects the game.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2016, 10:38:22 pm »
+5

I had a single Ranger in my deck that I played every turn so I could keep triggering the Pilgrimage gain. It was also nice for the +Buy.  ;D
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2016, 01:15:45 am »
0

I recently played a 3-player game with Empires and Cornucopia featuring Museum.  All players ended with 17 unique cards in our decks!  We each had the 7 basic cards, 1-3 prizes, and 7-9 kingdom cards.  Thanks Tournament!
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2016, 08:30:52 am »
+4

I love both champion and donate.
Thanks Donald X. For making love hate cards.
On the other hand I hate rebuild (leads to non interactive games), and possession (leads to degenerate games)
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2016, 10:00:12 am »
0

Log : http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160620/log.0.1466427278200.txt

Played wishing well 18 times.
Guessed correctly 15 times.
No scout, apothecary or any other deck examination involved, just sheer luck.
One of the incorrect guesses was when I guessed a card not in my deck because I wanted to leave the top card for my next hand.

One of these days we should see an article specifically about how do use "name a card". I find those to be really cool, and I feel like they are more strategic than they are given credit for.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2016, 10:19:41 am »
0

I love both champion and donate.
Thanks Donald X. For making love hate cards.
On the other hand I hate rebuild (leads to non interactive games), and possession (leads to degenerate games)

I love three out of those four! :) Degenerate games happen rarely enough with Possession to be worth having it. (while from the rules' point of view, uhm)
Not much love for the hate-hate card, even though I wouldn't mind it once in a long while.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2016, 11:12:00 am »
0

I love both champion and donate.
Thanks Donald X. For making love hate cards.
On the other hand I hate rebuild (leads to non interactive games), and possession (leads to degenerate games)

I love three out of those four! :) Degenerate games happen rarely enough with Possession to be worth having it. (while from the rules' point of view, uhm)
Not much love for the hate-hate card, even though I wouldn't mind it once in a long while.

Same. I also like Urchin. And Tournament.

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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2016, 11:13:23 am »
0

I love both champion and donate.
Thanks Donald X. For making love hate cards.
On the other hand I hate rebuild (leads to non interactive games), and possession (leads to degenerate games)

I haven't played with Donate yet. I'm less inclined to hate Champion now. It's sort of like Cultist and Rebuild games, where I'd rather not play them because they are so pervasive and dominating. My biggest objection to Champion is that playing all of your Actions willy-nilly doesn't feel like Dominion. I think if Making Fun didn't make it so that there were so many instances of Adventures cards popping up, I would probably dislike Page less. I feel like I'm playing with Page once every 3 or so games on average!

I used to hate Urchin and Tournament games, but I am fine with them now. Yes, they're very strong, and sometimes they are unfair, but you still have to have a strategy to win. They are not strategies in themselves.
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Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments of 2016 Thread
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2016, 12:12:33 pm »
+2

I love both champion and donate.
Thanks Donald X. For making love hate cards.
On the other hand I hate rebuild (leads to non interactive games), and possession (leads to degenerate games)

I haven't played with Donate yet. I'm less inclined to hate Champion now. It's sort of like Cultist and Rebuild games, where I'd rather not play them because they are so pervasive and dominating. My biggest objection to Champion is that playing all of your Actions willy-nilly doesn't feel like Dominion. I think if Making Fun didn't make it so that there were so many instances of Adventures cards popping up, I would probably dislike Page less. I feel like I'm playing with Page once every 3 or so games on average!

I used to hate Urchin and Tournament games, but I am fine with them now. Yes, they're very strong, and sometimes they are unfair, but you still have to have a strategy to win. They are not strategies in themselves.

Probably because a lot of people (like me) have "prefer adventures" checked on the "begin searching" screen.
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