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Author Topic: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond  (Read 4771 times)

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Elanchana

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Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« on: May 09, 2016, 10:10:22 pm »
+5

We can all agree that Villa, the new card, is kinda broken. But how broken can it be? Buckle your seatbelts and let's push this as far as possible.

Credit to 2 of the original playtesters for coming up with this idea (I just refined it a bit).

The Challenge: Using Villa as a key card, have a turn that can generate infinite coins and buys. And when I say infinite, I mean literally infinite. You must follow all the rules of Dominion, including using a legal kingdom (10/11 cards, max 2 events).

Hard modes:
  • Do not rely on shuffle luck to start or play your turn.
  • Do not have any durations in play.
  • Do not use Teacher or any of the tokens it grants you.
  • Be able to scale this challenge from zero to ten (reasonably compliant) opponents.
  • Use as few kingdom cards as possible.

Expert mode: All of the above at once.
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 10:25:25 pm »
0

Villa is not broken at all.

Working on this problem now. I am assuming all cards revealed today and before can make this work, and that there isn't some card to be revealed later that is crucial.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 10:29:03 pm »
+11

I've never understood this. You can use more than two Events! The recommended number is 0-2, but that's not the official range.
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Elanchana

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 10:36:48 pm »
0

I've never understood this. You can use more than two Events! The recommended number is 0-2, but that's not the official range.

Eh, fair point. Well, 2 or fewer events can be another hard mode I guess.
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 10:41:08 pm »
0

I have everything figured out except for the infinite gaining of Villas. Obviously, you have to be able to gain Villas infinitely to be able to do anything here. If there's a way to trash Villas and regain them, you can chain together a turn forever, and if you get Bridges into play, you can simply mass up extra buys, trash the Bridges and regain them, playing them over and over again. The problem is that trash gain cards are finite.
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pacovf

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 10:50:28 pm »
+1

The "compliant opponents" libe makes me think there are ambassador(+Moat) shenanigans.
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 10:52:08 pm »
0

The "compliant opponents" libe makes me think there are ambassador(+Moat) shenanigans.

0-10 opponents. You can solo this.
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pacovf

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 10:54:06 pm »
0

Yes, you play Ambassador to send Villas back to the Supply, so you can buy them again.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 10:54:38 pm »
0

Yes, you play Ambassador to send Villas back to the Supply, so you can buy them again.

Oh, right. I don't need to trash cards then. Well, I can figure out the solution now, I think.

EDIT: Oh, wait. Ambassadors are still only finite. There are only so many Ambassadors before you run out. I'm thinking it's an Event that will trigger this infinite chain because of this.
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Elestan

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 10:54:44 pm »
0

The "compliant opponents" libe makes me think there are ambassador(+Moat) shenanigans.
0-10 opponents. You can solo this.

Zero opponents has the same effect on Ambassadors as any number of Moated opponents.
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liopoil

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 11:22:23 pm »
0

I'm inclined to think this is impossible. If not, what is wrong with the following reasoning?

It is impossible for an action card, once completely resolved, to leave play. Note that any card which doesn't take itself out of play can only be taken out of play by procession, which doesn't take itself out of play. Cards which take themselves or others out of play go to the trash, and only graverobber/rogue take cards out of the trash, and they themselves stay in play. Thus we are forced to put a card in play which stays in play after a finite time, and there are finitely many cards, so all turns must be finite.

Maybe there is a way with mandarin/HoP shenanigans? I didn't account for treasures. But ambassadors still can't leave play unless processed, and the first in a procession chain stays in play.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 11:25:50 pm by liopoil »
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florrat

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 11:24:28 pm »
+2

Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
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Elanchana

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 11:28:39 pm »
0

Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.

I've gotten it down to 6. I tried reducing it to 5 and failed (under all the hard mode conditions). But if you succeed, congrats!
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liopoil

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 11:29:18 pm »
0

Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Bonfire! We can procession ambassadors and rogues then bonfire the processions. Not sure what other cards are specifically neccessary besides villa?
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 11:33:31 pm »
0

Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Bonfire! We can procession ambassadors and rogues then bonfire the processions. Not sure what other cards are specifically neccessary besides villa?

I knew about Bonfire already, and was about to rebut your analysis, but then your overall answer of finite cards made the entire process of telling you about that kind of moot, until I could solve the issue.
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liopoil

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2016, 11:36:22 pm »
0

Bonfire (and Mandarin) say hi.

I have a solution with 7 kingdom piles. I'm trying to reduce it to 5.
Bonfire! We can procession ambassadors and rogues then bonfire the processions. Not sure what other cards are specifically neccessary besides villa?

I knew about Bonfire already, and was about to rebut your analysis, but then your overall answer of finite cards made the entire process of telling you about that kind of moot, until I could solve the issue.
Bonfire solves the problem because now we can play a single ambassadors, rogue, and processions infinitely many times each by trashing and regaining them. I don't have the details, but I don't see why you need more than those, villa, and a way to draw them.
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florrat

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2016, 11:40:23 pm »
0

Getting enough draw, coins and buys is tricky, without any of the tokens which Champion Teacher can put on piles. The details are the hard part  :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 11:52:59 pm by florrat »
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math

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2016, 11:49:53 pm »
0

If you have Bridge (or Highways, they can still be in play), isn't getting enough coins easy?  Just reduce the cost of everything except Events to $0.  Or is that not enough?
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Elestan

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 11:52:17 pm »
+1

If you have Bridge (or Highways, they can still be in play), isn't getting enough coins easy?  Just reduce the cost of everything except Events to $0.  Or is that not enough?

Think about what that does to Rogue.
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math

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 11:53:36 pm »
0

If you have Bridge (or Highways, they can still be in play), isn't getting enough coins easy?  Just reduce the cost of everything except Events to $0.  Or is that not enough?

Think about what that does to Rogue.

Hmm, good point.  Never mind.
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 11:54:36 pm »
0

Capital can be used to get +$6 money and a buy, and Expedition can be used to draw +2 cards a turn, solving the draw problem. Rogue provides extra money, so you can easily get more than enough to pay for this with a net gain.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 11:55:39 pm by Seprix »
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math

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 11:55:36 pm »
0

Capital can be used to get +$6 money and a buy, and Expedition can be used to draw +2 cards a turn, solving the draw problem.

Expedition only works for your next turn, not your next action phase.  None of the Expeditions you buy will trigger.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 11:56:10 pm »
0

Capital can be used to get +$6 money and a buy, and Expedition can be used to draw +2 cards a turn, solving the draw problem.

Expedition only works for your next turn, not your next action phase.  None of the Expeditions you buy will trigger.

Darn. I was thinking about Princed actions as well, but I dismissed those for this very reason. I did forget about Expedition though.
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liopoil

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2016, 12:01:52 am »
+2

Getting enough draw, coins and buys is tricky, without any of the tokens which Champion Teacher can put on piles. The details are the hard part  :)
Buys: Travelling Fair
Coins: Mining Village/Rogue
Draw: Fortress

The only trouble now is getting enough rogue plays.
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florrat

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2016, 12:02:46 am »
+28

I can do it with 5 kingdom cards and 2 events, without durations or teacher-tokens and even without Black Market. This is in a solo game; with opponents I need every opponent to have a Moat in hand, which adds 1 kingdom pile.

Kingdom: Ambassador, Villa, Rogue, King's Court, Council Room
Events: Ferry, Bonfire
shelter game

Preparation: Put Ferry token on KC. Get a deck consisting of KC*6, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*4, CR*3, Overgrown Estate, Hovel. Trash all starting copper and Necropolis and make sure at least the following is in the trash: KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR (trash with Bonfire).

Start your infinite turn when you have KC*2, CR*2 (this will eventually always happen). Play KC-KC-CR-CR-Villa to draw your deck.

-- START LOOP -- (hand consist of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*3, CR (and OE), trash consists of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR)
Now play your 4 KCs in a chain to play 7 actions three times:
play 4 Rogues three times, to gain KC*4, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR
play CR three times to draw your deck.
play 2 Villas three times.

Play Ambassador, returning a Villa.

You gained 30 coins and 9 buys by this KC-chain. Go to the buy phase and buy Bonfire 6 times to trash 4*KC, 4*Rogue, CR, Villa*2, Amb. Buy a Villa to return to your action phase, and repeat the loop.
-- END LOOP --

Every iteration of the loop gives 8 coins and 2 buys, so you can get arbitrarily much coins and buys by doing this as often as you like (however, not infinitely many, since that takes infinite time)


EDIT: simplify a little bit.
EDIT 2: Had to make some minor changes because you cannot trash hovel without having a victory card in your deck in this kingdom.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 12:10:59 am by florrat »
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