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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa  (Read 30060 times)

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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2016, 10:24:45 am »
+1

Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.

My plan for a recent game was pretty much "Seaway and inherit Magpies, buy Hoard, Profit".
Those pesky piles, they run so fast.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #101 on: May 12, 2016, 10:32:53 am »
+3

Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.

My plan for a recent game was pretty much "Seaway and inherit Magpies, buy Hoard, Profit".
Those pesky piles, they run so fast.

Remember, only the real Magpies get +Buy.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2016, 06:15:00 pm »
0

Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.

My plan for a recent game was pretty much "Seaway and inherit Magpies, buy Hoard, Profit".
Those pesky piles, they run so fast.

Remember, only the real Magpies get +Buy.

Thank you for the reminder, I was in fact only mildly aware of the fact, partially because I assumed I wouldn't need more +buys than what provided by real Magpies.
For the record, I never managed to Inherit them, the pile just disappeared.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #103 on: May 13, 2016, 07:15:59 am »
+1

Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.
This is an important observation.

Villa is really easy to gain, but not the best village to have in your deck (although it certainly isn't bad), the missing +Card can be a pretty big deal. Festival is a pretty ok card, but there were so many times I had either all Festivals or all terminals.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #104 on: May 13, 2016, 07:21:15 am »
0

Yeah the whole fun with Villa seems to drastically decrease when the pile is emptied. Unfortunately, that probably means that both people will empty that pile too early before the card can get completely insane.
The missing +Card can be a pretty big deal.
Go pathfinding!
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2016, 08:41:56 am »
0

So... I've just been thinking.

Using a combination of Villa, trash-from-play and gain-from-trash shenanigans, it's possible to send Villa infinite. (This thread contains proof of concept.)

But it's also possible to incorporate VP gain into the cycle. Tomb is the no-effort way, but I bet Goons or Monument could manage it. This means Villa makes it possible to score infinite VP on a turn.

Two questions:
    1) Is it a good thing that Villa closes the Play->Trash->Deck->Play circle in Dominion?
    2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2016, 09:28:14 am »
+5

2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?
IIRC play on till one player starves.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2016, 09:29:46 am »
0


    2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?

DXV has a quote somewhere about how you'd better play in a 24 hour diner, because if you don't meet a win condition you're never going to stop playing.

In this case though, don't be too upset if everyone else leaves the table as well.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2016, 09:43:02 am »
0

This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2016, 09:44:39 am »
+2

    2) What's the ruling if somebody actually does this? Win? Stalemate?

So if I was running a meatspace tournament, and for some reason I allowed a kingdom that contained the pieces to create an infinite cycle, I'd treat it as they do in Magic. Demonstrate the deterministic loop, then name a number. Do it that many times and then stop. That means if your opponent can also do the loop, they can do it and choose a higher number. I expect it not to be a problem; presumably if you can get the supply and your deck to the state necessary to pull off the loop, you can just as easily score as many points as you need to take the lead and then actually end the game (I suppose you can pull the loop without a source of +buy but with VP, in that case, tough luck, eventually you need to pass the turn).

In a casual game, I expect everyone else to just quit if you assemble.
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Elestan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2016, 09:45:12 am »
+2

Is it a good thing that Villa closes the Play->Trash->Deck->Play circle in Dominion?

Currently, the circumstances that allow for unbounded gain are specific enough that they are only realistically going to happen by deliberate Kingdom design.  So for now, my suggestion is not to do that.  Don't put (Rogue or Graverobber) and (Procession or (Bonfire and Villa and Ambassador)) and (Crown or KC) and (a discounter) in the same Kingdom.  If you see a Kingdom with these cards, don't sit down at the table, and let the players know that they should have their wills in order before they start the game.

IMHO, while it would be preferable for the design to avoid allowing such shenanigans, the fun of playing Villa in the ~99.999999% of games that aren't vulnerable to this outweighs the downside that you can design something that will break if you try hard enough.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2016, 10:02:47 am »
+4

From what I have seen of the solutions to this infinite puzzle, they also require having a good percentage of the supply in your deck and the trash, and drawing the correct starting hand. Perhaps there is a way to to design a Kingdom that can actually set it up quickly, but I am skeptical.  All of the solutions require returning Villa's with Ambassador with all your opponents unaffected, with the only way of forcing that situation being passing them a Champion and Possessing them.

Anyway, rambling on about how it sets up further is silly. The point I wanted to make is that my assessment of the scenario is that attempting to set it up will probably either end in failure, or losing the game before you finish.

I'd presume that King's Court/Goons/Masquerade, and it's variants are a bigger "problem" than this is, and they have been around for quite some time.

Chris is me

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2016, 10:40:31 am »
+7

Nothing remotely complex in the Puzzles forum ever happens in real games with real players. There's nothing to worry about.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2016, 10:43:22 am »
0

Hey, the Outpost variant of the King's Court, Goons, Masquerade combo very nearly happened to me once. The game ended one turn before the player intent on that managed to set it off.

Yes, the examples given so far look baroque and contrived. It's possible simpler exploits might turn up in time, though.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2016, 02:43:06 pm »
+3

This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
The starvation ruling came from a question about, what if the players have no money left in their decks and the Copper pile is empty (and no other empty piles except Curse, and this was before Ruins). It's possible with a single card - Thief, players choosing not to gain the treasures. I mean you aren't going to trump that for feasibility. The main set has two recommended sets of 10 with that one-card combo.

And yet the ruling was, the players starve to death. It does not look to me like Villa-lock-ups are more likely.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2016, 04:45:27 pm »
0

This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
The starvation ruling came from a question about, what if the players have no money left in their decks and the Copper pile is empty (and no other empty piles except Curse, and this was before Ruins). It's possible with a single card - Thief, players choosing not to gain the treasures. I mean you aren't going to trump that for feasibility. The main set has two recommended sets of 10 with that one-card combo.

And yet the ruling was, the players starve to death. It does not look to me like Villa-lock-ups are more likely.

And I'm sure the same question has come up in the past in regards to possible situations where the best strategy was KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument while never buying anything because that would break your golden deck.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2016, 09:04:31 pm »
0

This feels a little different from the "don't be an idiot and play Secret Chamber over and over again to the same Attack" principle, though. I mean, you are actually deriving benefit each time round the loop that makes it more likely you'll win. It feels harder to say "don't do that" to someone who's making a winning play.

Outpost and Mission have a built-in brake. I wonder if some kind of "if this is the first time you've gained Villa this turn" was considered and rejected.
The starvation ruling came from a question about, what if the players have no money left in their decks and the Copper pile is empty (and no other empty piles except Curse, and this was before Ruins). It's possible with a single card - Thief, players choosing not to gain the treasures. I mean you aren't going to trump that for feasibility. The main set has two recommended sets of 10 with that one-card combo.

And yet the ruling was, the players starve to death. It does not look to me like Villa-lock-ups are more likely.

And I'm sure the same question has come up in the past in regards to possible situations where the best strategy was KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument while never buying anything because that would break your golden deck.

I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind. If we simply make the assumption that Dominion players are reasonable people and will resign when they're in a losing position, I don't think this is a problem at all, really.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2016, 09:49:01 pm »
+10

If we simply make the assumption that Dominion players are reasonable people

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2016, 10:22:08 pm »
+1

I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.
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AJD

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2016, 12:50:49 am »
+2

I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.

...Unless I'm missing something, if you play Villa arbitrarily many times, you accumulate arbitrarily many coins and buys. In which case, if you can play Villa arbitrarily many times, you can just buy all the Provinces. No?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2016, 01:01:32 am »
0

I'm guessing the ruling is also "starve to death" if both players trash away all their production and then put themselves in Debt.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2016, 02:05:28 am »
+1

I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.

...Unless I'm missing something, if you play Villa arbitrarily many times, you accumulate arbitrarily many coins and buys. In which case, if you can play Villa arbitrarily many times, you can just buy all the Provinces. No?

Buying a villa uses a buy which you get when you pay the villa you bought.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2016, 10:33:43 am »
0

Yeah, the only issue here would be if you were able to generate a loop that generated an unbounded amount of VP tokens, but not buys and/or coins.  I think the MTG rules of "demonstrate the loop, and then state the number of times you want to execute it" would be appropriate here. Since the loops rely on things being in the trash to start it up, you can probably block your opponent from doing it also, so just generate Graham's Number of VP tokens, and figure out how to empty the supply on your next billion turns or so.

If it really is a situation where both players can guarantee pulling it off every turn, then well, call it a tie or something (or starve to death if you must).  You already had to figure this situation out if two players get to equal Bishop Fortress decks at the same time, and that combo is a heck of a lot more likely to show up.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2016, 05:54:28 pm »
0

I had a game like that with J Reggie on his stream (Bishop-Fortress golden deck with lots of support), so it does happen. In practice, it ended with me resigning when I had gotten irrepairably far behind.
If individual turns go infinite, however, things are a little stranger. Especially if they go infinite for more than one player before anybody manages to pile out the game.

Then, however long the first player perseveres before ending their turn, the second player can overtake them. So (in that sense, even if not in common sense) the first player has an incentive never to stop.

...Unless I'm missing something, if you play Villa arbitrarily many times, you accumulate arbitrarily many coins and buys. In which case, if you can play Villa arbitrarily many times, you can just buy all the Provinces. No?

Buying a villa uses a buy which you get when you pay the villa you bought.

Oh, oops.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #1: Villa
« Reply #124 on: May 19, 2016, 01:38:57 pm »
+1

If I Summon a Villa, what happens? I am guessing this:

I gain Villa, which goes directly to my hand upon being gained, similar to Nomad Camp's ability.
I get +1 Action and return to my Action phase.
Summon tries to set Villa aside, looking for it in my hand.
At this point, I am not sure what should happen. On the one hand, maybe it succeeds, because even though my hand is not public information, everyone knows there is a Villa in my hand, and I am allowed to see all cards in my hand, so I can find it.
On the other hand, maybe it fails, because my hand is not public information, and in theory there could be some other ability that might trigger and cause me to discard or something, so in the interest of simplicity we consider it to immediately be lost track of when it enters my hand.

Edit: Actually, this seems similar to the situation where I Mine, say, Copper to Silver, and then reveal Watchtower to trash that Silver. We can do that, yes? In that case the Summon should succeed.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 01:58:31 pm by singletee »
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