Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 16  All

Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 89188 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3286
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2016, 04:18:00 pm »
+1

Strategic thought: Buying debt cards right before a reshuffle, if you have a mediocre hand, might be a good play. It lets you squeeze one more good card into your next reshuffle without the debt affecting it. It does of course affect the next shuffle, but hey that shuffle is better now anyway thanks to your debt purchase.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9580
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2016, 04:19:56 pm »
0

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5778
  • Respect: +23335
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2016, 04:20:17 pm »
+2

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
You can't.
Logged

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +123
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2016, 04:32:42 pm »
0

Maybe this can't be answered yet, but how many debt tokens come with Empires? Do they come in different denominations like VP tokens do?
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5778
  • Respect: +23335
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2016, 04:35:22 pm »
+2

Maybe this can't be answered yet, but how many debt tokens come with Empires? Do they come in different denominations like VP tokens do?
There are 40 and they are all 1's. They are not counter-limited but it's hard to rack up Debt; City Quarter for example never lets you have more than 8 Debt, except with Possession.
Logged

DoomYoshi

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Respect: +42
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #155 on: May 09, 2016, 04:49:41 pm »
0

After thinking about it, it's pretty clear that overall Possession is getting a buff, just based on the information we already have.

Yes, you can get into debt to shut down a turn of Possession. If that is the only reason you are getting into debt for, you might have some problems with the deck.

Imagine an engine that uses capital to make a bunch of money and then plans to pay it all off on the next turn. It would have to be reliable enough to not be a defense against Possession to be effective as an engine (a crazy sentence, but I think the flow is there).
Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1786
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #156 on: May 09, 2016, 04:55:29 pm »
0

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?
It's not just interactions, where some are nice and some not. It's also, that reddish hexagon with an 8 on it is the entirety of what City Quarter uses to invoke this mechanic. Rather than, you know, a bunch of text.

Originally they had big costs. Then they had like "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" (these are the ones where Swindler really hurt). The 8 in the corner was the best approach; I could have gone back if it hadn't been better.

Edit: To clarify this for some of you, the reason having Swindler hit "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" really hurt is because the card itself cost $0; they Swindle it into a Curse and you lose the card you paid $8 for. You never got Debt via having your card Swindled; note the "during your turn."

I was definitely thinking Swindler would turn red hex 8 into Province, not Curse. The way it is, the Debt cost cards have the Potion cost problem with Swindler: when a pile is empty and you hit that Debt cost card, it's likely you get NOTHING, not even a Province.

I was imagining something similar to Peddler: 8* with text allowing you to lower the cost by taking on Debt. Yeah, wall of text is a good reason not to do that. However, it doesn't preclude just defining the red hex 8 to be "regular cost 8, but you may take on debt to finance this card",  just like the starred costs are still in coin.

But perhaps my curiosity about how this developed will be in the eagerly awaited Secret History of Empires.
Logged

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1153
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1789
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #157 on: May 09, 2016, 04:57:30 pm »
0

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?
It went into effect Friday. I hope you've been playing it correctly.

Also, while I'm Possessing, does my opponent use my token like their own in full (under my direction) or do they spend theirs and whatever they gain goes to me?
Always remember that Possession is the other player taking a turn in which you make the decisions and get the cards and now tokens.

I Possess you, you have debt, that prevents you from buying cards. I could have you pay off debt. I can have you convert your coin tokens to $. It's all you doing stuff that I make the decisions for.

Thanks for the clarification.
Out of curiosity, do you plan to change the card text of the online version of Possession and of new printings?



The new Possession has a cool interaction with Coin token cards. If you can reliably play Possession, your payload in coin tokens is essentially guaranteed to be available only to you. Your opponent may or may not choose to play your Bakers, but if they do play them, you'll be the one using those tokens anyway. It's kind of similar to how vp cards are in old-P, only lopsided. Keeping tokens from turn to turn is still a bad idea, and getting Butcher is also still a pretty bad idea.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9580
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #158 on: May 09, 2016, 04:58:16 pm »
0

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
You can't.

And you can't buy from the Black Market if you have Debt?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7157
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9957
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #159 on: May 09, 2016, 04:59:20 pm »
+1

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
You can't.

And you can't buy from the Black Market if you have Debt?

Correct.
Logged

flaquito

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: +36
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #160 on: May 09, 2016, 05:00:58 pm »
0

It's interesting to me that the two debt-cost cards previewed are both absolutely terrible opening-round buys. City Quarter will at best replace itself if you draw your other action with it (assuming the other opening buy was an action). Royal Blacksmith will at worst discard every treasure you have, and at best leave you with a single silver, if that was your other opening buy. I'll be curious to see if the remainder of the debt-cost cards are just as bad as openers, or if there may be some that make the initial crippling debt worthwhile.
Logged

Elestan

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
  • Respect: +428
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #161 on: May 09, 2016, 05:03:17 pm »
+1

Maybe this can't be answered yet, but how many debt tokens come with Empires? Do they come in different denominations like VP tokens do?
There are 40 and they are all 1's. They are not counter-limited but it's hard to rack up Debt; City Quarter for example never lets you have more than 8 Debt, except with Possession.

Capital can accumulate quite a bit though; I believe 18 was my record, in a highly-leveraged Storyteller engine. That game also set my record for most coin in a single turn, with 104.  [Edit:  Which I can now reveal was after using Fortune to double it.]
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 12:59:30 am by Elestan »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5778
  • Respect: +23335
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #162 on: May 09, 2016, 05:05:14 pm »
+1

Out of curiosity, do you plan to change the card text of the online version of Possession and of new printings?
Yes, eventually.

The new Possession has a cool interaction with Coin token cards. If you can reliably play Possession, your payload in coin tokens is essentially guaranteed to be available only to you. Your opponent may or may not choose to play your Bakers, but if they do play them, you'll be the one using those tokens anyway. It's kind of similar to how vp cards are in old-P, only lopsided. Keeping tokens from turn to turn is still a bad idea, and getting Butcher is also still a pretty bad idea.
I am not sure I follow you. If I possess you and make you play Baker, I get the coin token.
Logged

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1153
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1789
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2016, 05:12:02 pm »
+1

Out of curiosity, do you plan to change the card text of the online version of Possession and of new printings?
Yes, eventually.

The new Possession has a cool interaction with Coin token cards. If you can reliably play Possession, your payload in coin tokens is essentially guaranteed to be available only to you. Your opponent may or may not choose to play your Bakers, but if they do play them, you'll be the one using those tokens anyway. It's kind of similar to how vp cards are in old-P, only lopsided. Keeping tokens from turn to turn is still a bad idea, and getting Butcher is also still a pretty bad idea.
I am not sure I follow you. If I possess you and make you play Baker, I get the coin token.

And if I can reliably play Possession, I'm going to use that coin before you can.
Unless I'm getting this rule change wrong in the third different way since I've heard about it. -.-'
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9170
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2016, 05:20:48 pm »
+6

Thoughts before reading 160+ replies in this thread...

Debt is a surprise to me.  Similar ideas have been discussed on fan cards.  I like that it's present on multiple cards as a set mechanic rather than on just one specific card, justifying the extra complexity and components.  But it's also actually very simple.  Instead of having to resolve interest, it's just an easily understood ban on buying anything else.

It'll be interesting to see how Debt-costing cards compare to other cards with non-Debt costs.  Potion is still pretty easy to grok, in that the Potion-cost limits you to gaining only one Potion-cost card per shuffle per Potion you have.  The need to line up Potion with other money means that more expensive Potion cards like Golem and Possession are that much harder to get.

OTOH, Debt-cost cards are easy to get, because you could even get them for free.  But you'll pay for it later, and that can be a real problem if you're not careful.  Neither City Quarter nor Royal Blacksmith seem like they are worth $8 up-front, but splitting the costs into multiple turns makes them more palatable.  In a sense, it's like Tactician where you sacrifice one turn to make another turn way better.  In this case, you get the good turn first (where you buy the powerful card) and then weaken your next turn or two while you pay off the debt.  Capital emphasizes this multi-turn pacing even more by advancing you $6 that will be taken from your next turn(s).

Theme-wise, I really like Royal Blacksmith.  He's a particularly skilled Smithy, but he refuses to work with inferior metals.  Nice.
Logged

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1153
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1789
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2016, 05:24:38 pm »
+3

OTOH, Debt-cost cards are easy to get, because you could even get them for free.  But you'll pay for it later, and that can be a real problem if you're not careful.  Neither City Quarter nor Royal Blacksmith seem like they are worth $8 up-front, but splitting the costs into multiple turns makes them more palatable.  In a sense, it's like Tactician where you sacrifice one turn to make another turn way better.  In this case, you get the good turn first (where you buy the powerful card) and then weaken your next turn or two while you pay off the debt.  Capital emphasizes this multi-turn pacing even more by advancing you $6 that will be taken from your next turn(s).

What I like about them, design-wise, is that they are both quite terrible if you get them too early, and this compensates the lack of an entry barrier to get them.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5778
  • Respect: +23335
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #166 on: May 09, 2016, 05:26:20 pm »
+2

I am not sure I follow you. If I possess you and make you play Baker, I get the coin token.

And if I can reliably play Possession, I'm going to use that coin before you can.
Unless I'm getting this rule change wrong in the third different way since I've heard about it. -.-'
Oh I see.

Logged

pst

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 575
  • Respect: +885
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #167 on: May 09, 2016, 05:41:55 pm »
+4

Capital seems to be a good way to get Grand Markets. $6 so you can afford it, and then you can pay it off next turn, without having to bother about the Copper rule.
Logged

crlundy

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 269
  • Shuffle iT Username: crlundy
  • Respect: +320
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #168 on: May 09, 2016, 05:50:11 pm »
0

So much of this discussion is about Possession instead of Empires, haha. But I had a few questions:

- I thought I understood the apples-and-oranges-like-Potion thing, but now I'm doubting myself. So with the way Debt ended up, the interaction with Swindler is you can only turn 8-Debt cards into other 8-Debt cards (assuming there are any left)? And you get no cards from Apprentice, and no "benefit" for Forge, etc.?
- When do your coins reset? At the end of your turn? I thought they went away at the end of your Buy phase, but that wouldn't make sense with Capital.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7157
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9957
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #169 on: May 09, 2016, 05:53:43 pm »
+2

- I thought I understood the apples-and-oranges-like-Potion thing, but now I'm doubting myself. So with the way Debt ended up, the interaction with Swindler is you can only turn 8-Debt cards into other 8-Debt cards (assuming there are any left)? And you get no cards from Apprentice, and no "benefit" for Forge, etc.?

Correct.

- When do your coins reset? At the end of your turn? I thought they went away at the end of your Buy phase, but that wouldn't make sense with Capital.

The end of your turn, yes.
Logged

ThetaSigma12

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1681
  • Shuffle iT Username: ThetaSigma12
  • Respect: +1790
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #170 on: May 09, 2016, 06:02:45 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.
Logged
My magnum opus collection of dominion fan cards is available here!

Elestan

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
  • Respect: +428
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #171 on: May 09, 2016, 06:09:58 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

I would take the other side of that bet.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9580
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #172 on: May 09, 2016, 06:11:05 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

math

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 318
  • Shuffle iT Username: math
  • Respect: +190
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #173 on: May 09, 2016, 06:14:39 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

My initial guess would be to put it somewhere just below the middle of the list; often skippable, sometimes really good and usually not totally ignorable, similar to Knights.
Logged

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 914
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1592
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #174 on: May 09, 2016, 06:15:21 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

Why not just Prince Herbalist? Also my Minion stack laughs at such foolish notions.
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 16  All
 

Page created in 0.089 seconds with 26 queries.