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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 159344 times)

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Polk5440

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2016, 03:02:55 pm »
0

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?
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michaeljb

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #126 on: May 09, 2016, 03:04:18 pm »
+1

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 
How does this happen? (Not claiming it can't, just curious on the possibilities--maybe Spoils play a role?)

Open Chapel, trash all your cards, after Chapel is the only card in your deck, buy a Debt card, now you can't buy anything and have no way of paying off the debt; your only hope is an opponent Masquerading you something that gives you +Coins.

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?

Correct
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:05:33 pm by michaeljb »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2016, 03:06:11 pm »
+5

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?

We did try them that way in some fashion. Swindler was, in fact, horrifying.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2016, 03:09:02 pm »
0

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?

We did try them that way in some fashion. Swindler was, in fact, horrifying.

I think Swindler is probably my least favorite card in the entire game.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2016, 03:10:03 pm »
+4

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?
Paying off debt does not use a Buy.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2016, 03:24:10 pm »
0

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?

Correct.  That's how Capital lets you pay off Debt in your Clean-up phase.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2016, 03:26:45 pm »
+3

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.
LF has reminded me that no, you don't get Pirate Ship tokens.

If you got them, they would just be regular coin tokens, not on a mat; remember other information is lost (e.g. their Bureaucrat gives you Silver in your discard pile, not on your deck).

Pirate Ship needs a clearer phrasing to deal with Guilds existing and that phrasing also has to be clearly different from getting tokens the other ways.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2016, 03:30:33 pm »
0

Will your previews be posted at the same time tomorrow?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2016, 03:31:42 pm »
+2

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 
How does this happen? (Not claiming it can't, just curious on the possibilities--maybe Spoils play a role?)

Open Chapel, trash all your cards, after Chapel is the only card in your deck, buy a Debt card, now you can't buy anything and have no way of paying off the debt; your only hope is an opponent Masquerading you something that gives you +Coins.

Oh duh, somehow I keep thinking you would have to have hit $8 to have bought the card even though not having to do so is literally the entire point.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2016, 03:33:28 pm »
0

Will your previews be posted at the same time tomorrow?
Well they won't be earlier. The plan is to have them around the same time but I won't know for sure until it happens.
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Marcory

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2016, 03:34:31 pm »
+10

Wow, this Debt sure has a high rate of interest.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2016, 03:37:26 pm »
+7

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?
It's not just interactions, where some are nice and some not. It's also, that reddish hexagon with an 8 on it is the entirety of what City Quarter uses to invoke this mechanic. Rather than, you know, a bunch of text.

Originally they had big costs. Then they had like "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" (these are the ones where Swindler really hurt). The 8 in the corner was the best approach; I could have gone back if it hadn't been better.

Edit: To clarify this for some of you, the reason having Swindler hit "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" really hurt is because the card itself cost $0; they Swindle it into a Curse and you lose the card you paid $8 for. You never got Debt via having your card Swindled; note the "during your turn."
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 04:19:22 pm by Donald X. »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2016, 03:54:36 pm »
0

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2016, 03:56:16 pm »
0

It's not just interactions, where some are nice and some not. It's also, that reddish hexagon with an 8 on it is the entirety of what City Quarter uses to invoke this mechanic. Rather than, you know, a bunch of text.

Originally they had big costs. Then they had like "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" (these are the ones where Swindler really hurt). The 8 in the corner was the best approach; I could have gone back if it hadn't been better.

So, if a card that "costs X debt" gets hit by Swindler, then it just gets trashed and replaced by a card that costs the same X debt, without the player accruing additional debt tokens?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2016, 03:57:13 pm »
0

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

No... You have to pay of debts in your buy phase. Wine Merchant checks if you have $2 at the end of your buy phase. It's not yet the end of your buy phase if you're still doing things in your buy phase like paying off debts.

*Edit* Sorry, that was for the normal case of paying off debts. If you are discarding a Capital from play, then you get an extra chance to pay off debts, in which case yes, you can pay off debts with the $2 you had at the end of your buy phase.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:59:06 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #140 on: May 09, 2016, 03:57:32 pm »
0

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

You would discard Capital after the end of your Buy phase, so you could release your Wine Merchants and still use your excess coin to pay off debt.  That is, specifically Capital's debt.  You would have to pay off other debt accrued that Buy phase first.  Although... do you have to pay off debt?  Could you leave for your Wine Merchants and just keep those 2 extra Debt tokens?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:58:35 pm by werothegreat »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #141 on: May 09, 2016, 04:00:14 pm »
+1

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

You would discard Capital after the end of your Buy phase, so you could release your Wine Merchants and still use your excess coin to pay off debt.  That is, specifically Capital's debt.  You would have to pay off other debt accrued that Buy phase first.  Although... do you have to pay off debt?  Could you leave for your Wine Merchants and just keep those 2 extra Debt tokens?

No rule was mentioned about being forced to pay off debts, so it seems pretty clear to me that you could keep the debt and discard Wine Merchant.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2016, 04:05:53 pm »
+1

Wine Merchant gets bought back at the end of the buy phase. So you can first get your Wine Merchant back, then discard Capital and use the 2$ to pay of debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #143 on: May 09, 2016, 04:08:31 pm »
0

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

It's getting a buff. Previously, you could counter Possession by going for Goons and Bishop and Monument, but now if you do that, your opponent will get the tokens instead when he possesses you.

I haven't skimmed the whole thread yet, but we don't know if there will be more VP generating cards than debt cards. It's too soon to know for sure whether it's a buff or a nerf. It's possibly a nerf against Guilds coin token cards too since they can't be stockpiled for use across multiple possession turns.

Possession is going to be weird with debt because the possessee can be made to buy like 10 debt cards in one turn. Then the Possessor can just focus on playing Possession while preventing the opponent from buying anything and pulling the same trick when they themselves are possessed, because of all the debt. The lesson here is to avoid +buy cards in a Possession game with debt cards.

So like, people have been listing the hundreds of little ways that Mission rocks. I imagine debt cards will be strong for similar reasons given how dramatic their effects are.

I like that the debt cards avoid the King's Court problem where "first one to get it wins". These cards are always accessible so long as you have no debt, similar to Chapel. I imagine these were ideas that were too difficult to price fairly without the introduction of debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #144 on: May 09, 2016, 04:10:07 pm »
0

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #145 on: May 09, 2016, 04:10:44 pm »
+3

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)

But you can buy Mission, then buy a Debt card. Which can be worth it if you're likely to make more than $4 next turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #146 on: May 09, 2016, 04:11:13 pm »
0

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)

But you can buy Mission, then buy a Debt card.

True.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2016, 04:11:43 pm »
0

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)

Why don't you buy mission first?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2016, 04:13:01 pm »
+5

So, if a card that "costs X debt" gets hit by Swindler, then it just gets trashed and replaced by a card that costs the same X debt, without the player accruing additional debt tokens?
Buying City Quarter gets you 8 Debt. That's the only way City Quarter gives you Debt; it doesn't give it to you if you gain one via Jester or Swindler or Remodel or what have you.

There were never versions that gave you Debt when gaining these via Jester or Swindler or Remodel or what have you; when they said "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" they had that "during your turn" to stop e.g. Ambassador from being a big Debt attack.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2016, 04:13:41 pm »
0

I haven't skimmed the whole thread yet, but we don't know if there will be more VP generating cards than debt cards. It's too soon to know for sure whether it's a buff or a nerf. It's possibly a nerf against Guilds coin token cards too since they can't be stockpiled for use across multiple possession turns.

Well, I was only considering the existing card interactions. I guess it could be considered a nerf if you take into account the new cards.
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