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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Results!)  (Read 12165 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Voting!)
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2016, 07:32:34 pm »
0

I really like Prawn Shop. The name is amazing, and there are plenty of things that you can do with it. I don't think it's purpose is to be a Village/your only village, I think it's supposed to provide +buy and be similar to Caravan and Haven and such.

It's a lost city on your next turn. That's a mighty strong card for a mere $3, I think. It's weaker than caravan on 'this' turn (a terminal copper + buy), but it's a lost city in the next. I think that's pretty much a village right there. A really strong one.
Prawn Shop costs 4$. And as I pointed out, if you have enough such that they match they combo into Lab and Market (thanks to eHalycon for correcting me on this). Caravan does not have to combo into anything and is alway a (delayed) Lab. Now of course this gets complicated if there is another Village on the board but overall the card is still weaker than Caravan.
If you reverse the effects such that it becomes a duration Market the card will probably be of similar strength but easier to play. At least I'd rather have a safe duration Market than potential duration half-Lab, half-Market once I got plenty of them.

No, not Lab+Market.  Just Market.  Of course, you don't have to use it to play a second Prawn Shop!

It's not really accurate to say that two Prawn Shops are a Market, though. It's more that, if you play Prawn Shop every turn, each becomes a Market. Which is okay, power wise - although i'm not sure having a $3 that equals a (relatively weak) $5 only if you play it each turn is that compelling. I mean, it looks kind of shabby compared to Oasis, especially considering you'll need your Prawn Shop buys for Prawn Shops if you want to pull this off.

I guess it has some other applications, too, like unstable decks where you actually have no better use for the action sometimes, and sometimes really need the spare action you had the turn before. It's kind of like a mini-Tactician in a way: Bad turn now, better turn later. The problem's just that both cost and reward are lower than Tactician, so i'm not sure that works as well. It also costs a lot less than Tactician, though. In all honesty, i find the "gives actions only if you have actions" part a bit weird, though.

Ah, right, I guess "2 Markets" is more accurate.  But it's one Market each turn, with one Prawn Shop played each turn.

FWIW, I think Prawn Shop is alright but not nearly as interesting as some other entries.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Voting!)
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2016, 05:48:10 pm »
0

A simple fix is to switch the effects such that it becomes an ordinary duration Market. Not super-exciting and probably a bit weak for 4$ (I use a cost of 3$ with "When you gain this, take your -1 Coin token" for a duration Market).
This is why I am pretty sure that Prawn Shop is weak for 4$.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Voting!)
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2016, 08:23:08 pm »
0

Preliminary Results:

Helmsman - 12
Pioneer - 12
Harbourmaster - 11
Prawn Shop - 11
Sunken City - 11

Diving Bell - 9
Fisherwoman - 8
Treasure Finder - 6
War Room - 6
Cargo - 5
Helm - 4
Pier - 4
Captain's Log - 3
Breakwater - 2
Prospector - 2
Tactical Village - 2
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Voting!)
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2016, 08:25:27 pm »
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Quote
Harbourmaster
Types: Action Duration Reaction
Cost: $3
+2 Cards

At the start of your next turn:
Discard any number of cards.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When another player buys a Victory card, you may play this card from your hand.

Quote
Helmsman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action
Name a cost. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal one costing exactly the named amount. Put that card on top of your deck and discard the rest.

Quote
Pioneer
Types: Action Duration
Cost: $5
+3 Cards
+1 Buy

On the turn you play this, when you buy an Action card, you may set it aside. If you do, play it at the start of your next turn, then trash it.

Quote
Prawn Shop
Types: Action Duration
Cost: $4
+1 Buy
+$1

At the start of your next turn:
+1 Card
+1 Action

Quote
Sunken City
Types: Action Duration
Cost: $2
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn: Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, play it. Otherwise, discard it.

Submit your votes to me via this forum's messaging system. To vote, give each card a score from 0 to 10. (It is recommended, but not required, that you give at least one card a 0 and at least one card a 10, to maximize your voting input.) The winner will be the card with the highest sum. Feel free to discuss the cards (but not your scores) in this thread.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2016, 07:49:11 am »
+1

Helmsman is to much like sage for my liking. Not strictly better, but too similar.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 10:03:28 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2016, 04:10:55 pm »
0

I feel like the duration of harbourmaster is too strong for $3, partial mulligans are insanely powerful. Though, I can see the justification, because that also has diminishing returns.

Prawn shop is just both hilarious, and actually a decently fun looking card. Imagine chaining these every turn.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2016, 04:47:51 pm »
0

I'm not convinced Prawn Shop is actually going to be fun. Chaining them to get Markets is pretty lame. I mean, come on, Market. What's exciting about Market? Plus, i think it's not that easy to pull it off. The other applications, like using it as some sort of Mini-Tactician, might be better, but i think the effect is too small to get much from that. I admit it's hard to evaluate without trying it, though, so i'd gladly hear opinions of folks who tried it, and possibly change mine.

Helmsman reminds me of Sage, Scavenger and Lookout, and seems nice. I guess the cost thing means you can only vaguely determine which card you get, unless of course you go for a single-card-strategy. Not sure it's good enough for its cost.

Diving Bell was another one i found interesting. I didn't vote for it because of the "while in play" thing, though.

Harbourmaster and Pioneer are decent, i guess, but i'm not really interested in them.

Sunken City is mine, and i'd love to win a contest for once, but the tracking thing pulls it down.

Ugh, i'm negative today.

Roadrunner7671

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2016, 04:56:54 pm »
0

Sunken City just seems really overpowered. It compares favorably to Herald and they chain very nicely.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2016, 05:14:31 pm »
0

Sunken City just seems really overpowered. It compares favorably to Herald and they chain very nicely.

There are two things i can say to answer your concern:

First: It's true that Sunken City seems relatively powerful if it hits. It's also really bad if it doesn't hit. Herald is never worse than a cantrip, Sunken City can be Ruined Village. Just, you don't know that before the fact. It's unreliable, and getting many Sunken Cities too early actively harms you. It only pays off once your deck reaches a certain state, which might not even be possible in some games.

Second, compare Caravan, which is a cantrip now and a Lab next turn. Caravan costs $4, just one less than Lab, and Lab is a strong $5. Sunken City is something about as good as a cantrip now, and a Herald next turn. It costs $2 less, but Herald is weak, has an overpay effect, and the gap between $2 and $4 is actually smaller than the gap between $4 and $5.

tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2016, 06:52:46 pm »
0

Sunken City just seems really overpowered. It compares favorably to Herald and they chain very nicely.
If it hits twice it is a double-duration Village which is probably worth around 4$. If it hits once it is worth 3$ or less (if it happens in the second turn). If it doesn't hit it is dead.
Doesn't seem overpowered to me. Sure, it is better than Herald for its price but Herald is fairly weak.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2016, 08:08:46 am »
+1

I find Sunken City quite decently balanced for its cost. It only becomes good when it's later in the game when you usually don't want to pick up $2's. So it does take quite a bit to make the card strong, which is good for such a cheap card. I can see it working and I don't quite see the trackin issue? It seems straightforward to me.

In general, I find that some nice ideas were passed over for cards that I don't see working at all. Can anybody explain Helmsman to me? I think the way it is right now, it competes with Scout for worst card. I mean reducing your handsize to topdeck a card from a specific cost barely ever seems worth it. Maybe in possession slogs where your deck does nothing and you can topdeck a possession for next turn but beyond that I don't see any use for it.

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird. Pioneer is really cool, though.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2016, 10:42:08 am »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2016, 11:44:26 am »
0

If anyone wants to look at this for a second:

Quote
Tactical Village
Types: Action Attack - Duration
Cost: $5
+1 Action
As long as this in play: At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game: +1 Action.
---------------------
You may discard Tactical Village from play during your turn. If you do: cancel one duration effect from all other players. Discard the duration card with it.

I know that many of you voiced concerns about 'not buying durations' when tactical village is in play, but let me stress that this does not seem to be the case, for (I think) a big reason.

Sacrificing a tactical village is still a big downside for you. If you buy tactical village, you want to use the additional actions. If you buy tactical village just to attack others, you are spending 5 on something that, then, ultimately is easy available. All games I have played with TV end up with people sometimes sacrificing their own TV to hurt others, and sometimes not. So people buy TV to use, not to hurt. The 'hurting' is an additional something it can do, to give something extra to the card, without just being an endless village.

In a game with both wharf and TV, I had many TV, but I ultimately overspend on TV, because I had too little wharfs. Even if I tried to hurt the other Wharf's, it was still a pain in the ass to try to hurt the others.

True, you might be more likely to discard TV when you are near your shuffle than if you just shuffled, but you are still actively hurting yourself.

One nerf I'd be ok with, is to make it that you don't immediately get a +1 Action on the turn you play, increasing the cost incured if you discard if yourself.

But the fear that people will stop duration cards... empirically, it hasn't been the case so far.

I think people slightly overestimate the usage of this effect. :)

But that's just my two cents. I also rephrased the wording: I think this should be better.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2016, 11:54:40 am »
0

Harbourmaster: I find the card a bit too weird, but because it's just so weird and interesting, it gets a >5 score from me. Sunken City is just a good village, with some randomness. >5 score as well. Prawn Shop is also weird, and I like weird in this case, so I also gave it >5.

Pioneer; I am just not a fan of. I just don't know what to do with it, except in the case of forretress. Maybe buy stuff like pearl diver and pawn with it? Buying something expensive with it seems risky.

Here would be my small contribution to Pioneer.

Quote
Pioneer
Types: Action Duration
Cost: $5
+3 Cards
+1 Buy
On the turn you play this, when you buy an Action card, you may set it aside. If you do, play it at the start of your next turn, then trash it.
-------
In games using this, add XXX to the supply.
Quote
XXX
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+$1
Draw until you have 6 cards.

So you always have a reasonable, but not super, target to buy with Pioneer.

Helsman is interesting, but I would either add a village effect (+2 Actions) and make it $4 *or* make it a cantrip (so they stack better) and probably also make it cost $4. Now it's just a bit... meh.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2016, 12:07:57 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?

No it isn't. But unfortunately I don't see any redeeming qualities of the card, yet.

@AdrianHealey:

I liked TV, I was one of the few who voted for it. I think the main problem is as someone (I think Gendokari?) pointed out that duration effects don't get cancelled by discarding the card, so it would need further rules qualifications.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2016, 12:11:06 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?

No it isn't. But unfortunately I don't see any redeeming qualities of the card, yet.

@AdrianHealey:

I liked TV, I was one of the few who voted for it. I think the main problem is as someone (I think Gendokari?) pointed out that duration effects don't get cancelled by discarding the card, so it would need further rules qualifications.

Thanks! Question: did you voted for it, taking into account my intend (discarding the ffect) or the current phrasing of the card ('merely' discarding the card)? I didn't vote for my own card, so there is at least one other person who voted for it. :p

I've added a version above that should, I think, clear it up. It is true I had no idea that the duration effects don't get cancelled by the card, so I changed the formulation too:

Quote
Tactical Village
Types: Action Attack - Duration
Cost: $5
+1 Action
As long as this in play: At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game: +1 Action.
---------------------
You may discard Tactical Village from play during your turn. If you do: cancel one duration effect from all other players. Discard the duration card with it.

Thanks for liking it!
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2016, 12:19:55 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?
No. Neither is "overpowered" nor "swingy". People may like or dislike such cards, and vote accordingly. I personally agree that Prawn Shop's "delayed cantrip" is something interesting, but i also suspect it to be weak, luck-based, and overall unrewarding.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2016, 12:25:32 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?
No. Neither is "overpowered" nor "swingy". People may like or dislike such cards, and vote accordingly. I personally agree that Prawn Shop's "delayed cantrip" is something interesting, but i also suspect it to be weak, luck-based, and overall unrewarding.

But it's really not a delayed cantrip, right?

If at the start of my next turn, I get a +1 Action and +1 Card, I know have:
6 Cards
2 Actions

which is basically a 'delayed lost city', which is pretty strong. Admittedly, you exchange it for a terminal copper + buy, which is then bad. But that's offsetted by the card's cost of $4.

The duration effect is stronger than Caravan, but you sacrifice more in *this* turn. It might be better to either make it non-terminal in this turn, or reducing the price even further to $3. Maybe.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2016, 02:11:15 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?
No. Neither is "overpowered" nor "swingy". People may like or dislike such cards, and vote accordingly. I personally agree that Prawn Shop's "delayed cantrip" is something interesting, but i also suspect it to be weak, luck-based, and overall unrewarding.

But it's really not a delayed cantrip, right?

If at the start of my next turn, I get a +1 Action and +1 Card, I know have:
6 Cards
2 Actions

which is basically a 'delayed lost city', which is pretty strong. Admittedly, you exchange it for a terminal copper + buy, which is then bad. But that's offsetted by the card's cost of $4.

The duration effect is stronger than Caravan, but you sacrifice more in *this* turn. It might be better to either make it non-terminal in this turn, or reducing the price even further to $3. Maybe.

Wait, i always thought it costed 3. Not even being able to open with two of these seems even worse.

I wrote "delayed cantrip" because that's what it does on paper. I already pointed out before that you can consider Prawn Shop a kind of mini-Tactician in that if gives you a better next turn at the cost of harming this one, and remarked that the small scale hurts its application as such. The other idea that has been thrown around was to play several of these every turn, where "cantrip" becomes more appropriate. It has some flexibility, but also lacks stability.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2016, 02:43:35 pm »
+1

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?
No. Neither is "overpowered" nor "swingy". People may like or dislike such cards, and vote accordingly. I personally agree that Prawn Shop's "delayed cantrip" is something interesting, but i also suspect it to be weak, luck-based, and overall unrewarding.

But it's really not a delayed cantrip, right?

If at the start of my next turn, I get a +1 Action and +1 Card, I know have:
6 Cards
2 Actions

which is basically a 'delayed lost city', which is pretty strong. Admittedly, you exchange it for a terminal copper + buy, which is then bad. But that's offsetted by the card's cost of $4.

The duration effect is stronger than Caravan, but you sacrifice more in *this* turn. It might be better to either make it non-terminal in this turn, or reducing the price even further to $3. Maybe.

Wait, i always thought it costed 3. Not even being able to open with two of these seems even worse.

I wrote "delayed cantrip" because that's what it does on paper. I already pointed out before that you can consider Prawn Shop a kind of mini-Tactician in that if gives you a better next turn at the cost of harming this one, and remarked that the small scale hurts its application as such. The other idea that has been thrown around was to play several of these every turn, where "cantrip" becomes more appropriate. It has some flexibility, but also lacks stability.

I usually use the term 'cantrip' for 'you end up with the same amount of cards and the same amount of actions' + some effect. But that's clearly not what's happening here.

A $3 delayed lost city would seem reasonably priced, I think. At 4 it gets a little dicey, but I am not so sure (as you seem to be, I think) that this is a bad card, though. Weird, yes.

As a terminal, it's not a bard card when it's surrounded by a bunch of real can trips. Even in a deck full of good terminals, it still seems like a reasonable card to pick up, to make sure you can add power to your next hand.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2016, 04:25:07 pm »
+1

I think I like Pioneer best.  I'll probably give some support to Harbourmaster too.

Pioneer is a really unique new idea that surprisingly doesn't seem to have any issues with rules or anything like that.  My only concern is that you won't want to use its special thing very often.  It might be more appealing with something like +$1 or +$2 in the "if you do" part.  It sort of becomes a Bridge effect which might get crazy on a terminal drawer.  It's probably interesting enough as it is though.  If nothing else, you can use the special ability to set yourself up to explode on your last turn.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2016, 06:08:34 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?

No it isn't. But unfortunately I don't see any redeeming qualities of the card, yet.

@AdrianHealey:

I liked TV, I was one of the few who voted for it. I think the main problem is as someone (I think Gendokari?) pointed out that duration effects don't get cancelled by discarding the card, so it would need further rules qualifications.

Thanks! Question: did you voted for it, taking into account my intend (discarding the ffect) or the current phrasing of the card ('merely' discarding the card)? I didn't vote for my own card, so there is at least one other person who voted for it. :p

I've added a version above that should, I think, clear it up. It is true I had no idea that the duration effects don't get cancelled by the card, so I changed the formulation too:

Quote
Tactical Village
Types: Action Attack - Duration
Cost: $5
+1 Action
As long as this in play: At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game: +1 Action.
---------------------
You may discard Tactical Village from play during your turn. If you do: cancel one duration effect from all other players. Discard the duration card with it.

Thanks for liking it!

Yeah, I thought the original card already did this, I only learned the mechanics about the Duration cards working that way  after voting. I think your current wording would work, but I'm still not an expert on the matter :)
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2016, 07:38:45 pm »
+1

Helmsman is my favourite of the bunch.  I see the comparison to Sage, but I think it would play very differently even if +1 card is added to it (which I think would be a nice change).  I think it adds a lot of potential for skilled play.

I'm surprised at the amount of concern over Prawn Shop.  Overall it seems fine to me.  I don't think it is obviously too powerful or too weak, but if it does lean one way or the other then cost seems like a totally fine lever to adjust here.  My concern is just that it might be a bit boring.




My entry was Diving Bell.  I also submitted the draw-from-bottom card in the other contest.  I tried it twice, probably won't try it again.  I've posted this general concept.  I think the best implementation is this one here, because the hope is that players use it to set up their next turn and the non-terminal draw has the best chance of making that happen.

@Asper, I'm wondering why you're so against the while-in-play clause.  I like it because it's something simple, new and unique that has some really interesting implications.  I particularly like what it does to Pearl Diver,  Wishing Well and Ironmonger.  You said you've tried something like it before; did you find problems with it in testing?
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2016, 07:50:02 pm »
0

Also Prawn Shop is really, really weird.
Is weird a synonym for bad though?

No it isn't. But unfortunately I don't see any redeeming qualities of the card, yet.

@AdrianHealey:

I liked TV, I was one of the few who voted for it. I think the main problem is as someone (I think Gendokari?) pointed out that duration effects don't get cancelled by discarding the card, so it would need further rules qualifications.

Thanks! Question: did you voted for it, taking into account my intend (discarding the ffect) or the current phrasing of the card ('merely' discarding the card)? I didn't vote for my own card, so there is at least one other person who voted for it. :p

I've added a version above that should, I think, clear it up. It is true I had no idea that the duration effects don't get cancelled by the card, so I changed the formulation too:

Quote
Tactical Village
Types: Action Attack - Duration
Cost: $5
+1 Action
As long as this in play: At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game: +1 Action.
---------------------
You may discard Tactical Village from play during your turn. If you do: cancel one duration effect from all other players. Discard the duration card with it.

Thanks for liking it!

Yeah, I thought the original card already did this, I only learned the mechanics about the Duration cards working that way  after voting. I think your current wording would work, but I'm still not an expert on the matter :)

Thanks for the vote anyway!

Quote
Tactical Village
Types: Action Attack - Duration
Cost: $5
+1 Action
As long as this in play: At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game: +1 Action.
---------------------
You may discard Tactical Village from play during your turn. If you do: cancel one duration effect from all other players. Discard the duration card with it.

This looks like it should work. I'll use this way of framing it in the future. ^^
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 5: Seaside (Finalists!)
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2016, 07:55:03 pm »
+1

@Asper, I'm wondering why you're so against the while-in-play clause.  I like it because it's something simple, new and unique that has some really interesting implications.  I particularly like what it does to Pearl Diver,  Wishing Well and Ironmonger.  You said you've tried something like it before; did you find problems with it in testing?

I tried a card that uses the bottom of your deck to store stuff for later. Diving Bell instead uses the top of your deck to store stuff for later, by making you draw from the bottom instead. There isn't that big of a similarity other than that. As i said, your idea works much better, and the reason i dislike the "while in play" thing is mostly that it alters how another card plays. Considerations like "Which card takes precedence now?" aside, it feels a bit unelegant. I don't know about any better way to do it, though.
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