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[AdamH]

I've waited a little bit to post this, but I feel that the League moderators have taken some actions that are inappropriate enough that the community should be made aware of them.

A couple of weeks ago I received a PM from a moderator stating that some of the contenders in the A division were not willing to cooperate with me to broadcast the champion match this season (this was when there were several games left to be played in the A division). It said the moderators discussed it and decided that I should not commentate any champion matches until the conflicts were resolved. I was not told what the conflicts were or who they were with, and after asking several times for this information I have still not been told.

I replied to all of the moderators asking for clarification on the situation, but also stating that this decision as presented to me was inappropriate -- people playing in the league should not have the authority to decide who gets to commentate (or not commentate) matches without the consent of the community, and this decision sets a dangerous precedent. If the players do not wish to cooperate, nobody is forcing them to have the match broadcast (actually nobody is even forcing them to play the match at all) so the decision should be to not have a broadcast. I also mentioned that in no other "E-sport" or game that receives commentary would this behavior be acceptable -- players in a high-profile tournament just don't enter if they don't like the commentators that much. Obviously Dominion is different but this was one of many reasons I gave against their decision. Another reason I gave is that I have worked for over a year, more than anyone else towards making good commentary for these broadcasts, and every indication the community has given shows that they want to see me continue that work -- this decision attempts to throw away all of that work when other options exist that don't do this.

For the record, I don't feel like I have to commentate every match (I'd actually like to not have that pressure, and I'd like for more people to make an effort to get involved, as seen by my work in some of those threads I've linked). Being shut out of the process entirely for seemingly no good reason is what I have an issue with. Maybe there is a good reason, but I'm not being told the whole story here so I don't know what it is.

When I got a response, none of my concerns or questions were answered. I was told that due to my posts in other areas of the forum, I should no longer consider myself a representative of the community. I also received several personal insults from multiple League moderators. Regardless of who is "right" or "wrong" or whatever about this particular issue, this behavior is completely unacceptable from anyone in a position of authority.

Full disclosure: the only actual argument I could get from any of these PMs was that maybe the community doesn't want to see me commentate matches anymore. That's one of the reasons I made the most recent poll about this topic (though there were others). After the poll's results were clear, I sent one last PM asking them to change their decision, which they did not.

I feel that I have no choice but to tell the community that this has happened -- the League moderators have taken a course of action that is completely inappropriate in several ways. I know that I can never be comfortable participating in any part in anything moderated by anyone from this group of moderators: yes, I can only speculate what their reasons are for this (I wasn't told anything more what I've mentioned here, plus personal insults); but regardless of what those reasons are, the actions they have taken are so reprehensible that these reasons seem irrelevant -- there's no excuse for dismissing my valid concerns with personal insults via PM.

Perhaps the League moderators will be compelled to justify what they've done to the community now that I'm trying to hold them accountable for their actions? I will not allow the moderators to treat people the way they have treated me (and others in the past, btw) behind closed doors and not be held accountable to the community for what they say and do. The League can only succeed with the support of the community, and that community should be fully informed of what is happening, however ugly it may be.

What do I think should be done? Well Stef has made it clear that the moderators of the League will have complete authority over anything that happens in the League, and I doubt any of them would step down based on the PMs I've received. But people seem to like the constant competitive play that the nature of the League offers them.

In this case, it seems the best course of action would be for the league to be dissolved (by people not playing in it anymore. Yeah that seems pretty ambitious, but it seems like that has to happen in order to stop things like this from happening again) and for another method of competitive Dominion to take its place. None of the moderators of this new thing should be current League moderators. The format and moderators should be chosen by the community (maybe another League, who knows?), and the workings of this new thing should be completely transparent. I would rather not be the one to put it together to avoid potential conflict of interest, since I'm unfortunately the one who got stuck in the position of having to out the behavior of the current League moderation, but I am capable of moderating tournaments and would be willing to do so if called upon.

[markusin]

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?

[AdamH]

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?

I don't know the answer to this question, though SCSN seems like a perfectly reasonable choice. And I don't think anyone would disagree that if DXV wants to commentate then he should be able to pretty much whenever/however he wants -- I really enjoyed hearing him. <3

[amoffett11]

Is it possible that they already had the current #1 player (SCSN) and the creator of the game (DXV) lined up to commentate, and that's why they didn't need you this time around?

As for Accountability, you've kind of just dragged the names of some or all of the league moderators through the mud, without anything to really back it up.  For the record, I'm not suggesting that the PM's made public, because they shouldn't be.

[AdamH]

I'm not terribly concerned with the fact that I couldn't commentate this one champion match. I mean, yes my feelings are excessively hurt because there are few things I would have liked more in this world than to commentate with DXV, and I feel like I deserve it. But the core of my problem is not the result, but how it was handled -- namely that I've been completely shut out of the process the way I was.

It's a touchy situation, and just copy/pasting the PMs here in their entirety doesn't seem like a good thing to do. If something comes into question I'm glad to post relevant parts. On the other hand, I'm willing to stake my reputation with this community on the fact that I'm not being misleading here. I really don't want to do this because I realize the gravity of what I'm saying, but I don't have a choice. I've been forced into this situation and I'm not going to just lay down and take it.

Oh, I see this topic has been moved. Can someone please tell me how this isn't a clear abuse of Stef's moderator privileges on that board? That was completely inappropriate. I have already reported it and asked for it to be moved back.

[Donald X.]

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?

I know at least part of this one.

Stef asked me if I was interesting in commentating. I said sure. He said I should have someone with me, did I have an opinion there. I said well, someone with experience with commentating who would have things to talk about. He suggested four people; WW up front, then Adam (noting that they'd had some kind of argument but still being willing to have him), SCSN and jsh357. My first pick was SCSN, who said yes.

[-Stef-]

Adam, I am truly lost here. I honestly have no clue how to deal with you. Whatever I do, you manage to give it a negative spin.

As for accountability, feel free to make any PMs I ever sent you public, and by all means do include the PMs you're sending yourself.

Please also note that I don't actually want you to do that. It's not a path I believe in, it's not something I've ever seen work out nicely. But I do prefer it over your claims about personal insults. I didn't do that, I wouldn't, and I still won't.

[Roadrunner7671]

Dissolving the league seems unlikely, if not impossible.

I wouldn't be suprised if none of the moderators in questions respond to this thread. Realistically, it can probably just be ignored by them and it will eventually go away.

EDIT: I didn't see the post before mine.

[AdamH]

If making the PMs public is the only thing, then I'll do it. I'm not convinced that's necessary yet. I have nothing to hide. The problem is that some of the things that I originally thought were personal insults (not made by Stef, but a different moderator) turned out to just be a language barrier issue that was handled maturely. It seems really inappropriate to include that part of the conversations, but it's difficult to cleanly remove that. It's a messy situation.

On the other hand, you (PPE: Stef) are the one who moved this topic from a place where it actually belongs to a place where people can't see it unless they have an account. These are the actions of someone who has something to hide.

Dissolving the league seems unlikely, if not impossible.

I wouldn't be suprised if none of the moderators in questions respond to this thread. Realistically, it can probably just be ignored by them and it will eventually go away.

No, this is completely unacceptable. The actions of the league moderators are unacceptable and to sweep it under the rug is not an option. I will not accept that, and I will not accept the way I was treated. If people don't care enough, then there's not much more I can do about it, but I will not let the reason people don't know about what is going on be because I didn't do everything I could to bring it to their attention.

I'd like to think this is a community that isn't so willing to bury its head in the sand in spite of a clear problem.

[Roadrunner7671]

Dissolving the league seems unlikely, if not impossible.

I wouldn't be suprised if none of the moderators in questions respond to this thread. Realistically, it can probably just be ignored by them and it will eventually go away.

No, this is completely unacceptable. The actions of the league moderators are unacceptable and to sweep it under the rug is not an option. I will not accept that, and I will not accept the way I was treated. If people don't care enough, then there's not much more I can do about it, but I will not let the reason people don't know about what is going on be because I didn't do everything I could to bring it to their attention.

I'd like to think this is a community that isn't so willing to bury its head in the sand in spite of a clear problem.

I'm not trying to say this isn't a big deal, I'm trying to be realistic. A lot of people in the league seem to never post on the forum, they just have an account here to post results and to /in to the league. I probably won't play in Season 14, sure, but getting everyone to leave the league is just a huge, seemingly impossible idea. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just can't see anything big happening.

[markusin]

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?

I know at least part of this one.

Stef asked me if I was interesting in commentating. I said sure. He said I should have someone with me, did I have an opinion there. I said well, someone with experience with commentating who would have things to talk about. He suggested four people; WW up front, then Adam (noting that they'd had some kind of argument but still being willing to have him), SCSN and jsh357. My first pick was SCSN, who said yes.

Well, that's quite informative. Thank you.

So, there are no explicit rules about who gets to commentate a championship match, or that a championship match should even be commentated (at least not that I found). It doesn't seem like playing it by ear has led to problems in the past. Indeed, even AdamH admits that he isn't opposed to the outcome reached this season. I don't either.

The problem seems to be how AdamH feels he has been treated by the moderators. Well, I don't know what you are supposed to do in that situation besides expressing disapproval, which AdamH has done strongly.

I really don't want PMs to be revealed. I don't have much more to say about this topic at this time.

[Awaclus]

I don't see the problem with revealing PMs. It's better than just describing their content for sure, because it's objective.

[markusin]

I don't see the problem with revealing PMs. It's better than just describing their content for sure, because it's objective.

Well revealing PMs defies the spirit of PMs, but yeah they can be revealed if there is good reason to.

In this case, I worry that it will result in a flame war about how the PMs should be interpreted.

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

[Haddock]

I don't feel that I can contribute effectively to this discussion.  However, I think it is one that is likely to impact the whole community, not just those who actively follow the league. For that reason I'd like to keep an eye on this thread, so, /tag.

[Limetime]

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

[AdamH]

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.

[Joseph2302]

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.

So RSP seems a weird place for this thread- it seems directly related to Dominion League, so why shouldn't it be on that board?

[Roadrunner7671]

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.

So RSP seems a weird place for this thread- it seems directly related to Dominion League, so why shouldn't it be on that board?

Stef moved it.

[XerxesPraelor]

I think Stef is definitely not trying to hide anything and the tone you (Adam) are using is rather condescending ("this is completely unacceptable" is something middle school teachers say).

On the other hand, "none of my concerns or questions were answered" is in fact pretty bad, and I don't think the personal bias a lot of the top people here have against AdamH should get in the way of the metaphorical due process.

[Watno]

I think the league organizers can do whatever they wish with their league. People are free not to participate if they don't like something.

[Joseph2302]

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.

So RSP seems a weird place for this thread- it seems directly related to Dominion League, so why shouldn't it be on that board?

Stef moved it.

And my point was, I disagree with the move.

[nate_w]

Adam, first of all I want to let you know that I think you are a hugely valuable member of the community.  Often, when I am reading a thread I think to myself, "Self, AdamH is the only one in this thread I agree with." 

This whole thing feels like a re-occurrence of the Wandering Winder dispute with league moderators (Stef?).  I'll share my opinion this time, which was pretty much my unshared opinion at that time.

The league is NOT a democracy, a representation of community wishes, an official anything.  It is a creation of Stef.  You can dislike the way he runs it.  You can leave the league.  You can create, or encourage others to create, an alternative run more in the way you feel like it should be run (which, I imagine would be more community input centric).  You can demand that the league moderators change.  But that's about the limits of what you can do.  There is no greater organizing body of Dominion. 

In this specific instance I am, unusually, not particularly sympathetic to your arguments although I do feel really badly that your feelings were hurt and that you weren't treated in a way you would have liked to have been.

If one or more the people in the championship match don't want you to commentate, I honestly think that should be that.  I don't really think you have any grounds to argue with their decision, and it doesn't actually matter why they feel that way.  In fact, I think it's somewhat rude to try to force them to give you reasons.  They shouldn't have to and it puts them in an uncomfortable situation.
You can appeal to them that the community would appreciate it, but when it comes down to it I think you have to respect their decision.

Anyway, again, I really appreciate your varied contributions to the community and hope you continue to do so.  I really like your views on a lot of topics, I just don't happen to agree with you here, although I am sorry if you felt treated unjustly :-(

[Chris is me]

In this case, it seems the best course of action would be for the league to be dissolved (by people not playing in it anymore. Yeah that seems pretty ambitious, but it seems like that has to happen in order to stop things like this from happening again) and for another method of competitive Dominion to take its place. None of the moderators of this new thing should be current League moderators. The format and moderators should be chosen by the community (maybe another League, who knows?), and the workings of this new thing should be completely transparent. I would rather not be the one to put it together to avoid potential conflict of interest, since I'm unfortunately the one who got stuck in the position of having to out the behavior of the current League moderation, but I am capable of moderating tournaments and would be willing to do so if called upon.

Let's put the entire nature of the disagreement over whether or not you should commentate or whether or not you and the mods have beef aside for a minute. I'm sure there's some legitimate points in there from some angle, blah blah blah, people should be nicer or something, blah blah, sometimes two rational agents just don't get along...

You want to dissolve the only consistent competitive online Dominion circuit because they picked someone else to do commentary once? Jesus dude, grow up. I know commentary is something you care about and is important to you, but League is also important to the (other) people who run it and play in it. Ultimately, if the League is still running and is still fair to at least all of its participants (in the playing matches sense), there's no reason to encourage everyone to quit because of a decision over who talks over 1 of the hundreds of matches played each month.

[Joseph2302]

AdamH is definitely one of the people who I respect the most, and I'm disappointed to see that he feels he's been deeply wronged.

Fundamentally, I agree that the League is not a democracy, and Stef and moderators can do whatever they want (including moving this discussion).

This means that if people don't want Adam to commentate, then it seems reasonable for the mods to ask him not to commentate. That said, I think asking why is a perfectly reasonable question.

If you have an issue with moderators, then don't participate - simples. I guess a rival league might work, it has in many sports,  but unless someone sets it up, then we're going to have to stick with what we got.

[DG]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

[Roadrunner7671]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

Ask ADK.

[Awaclus]

You want to dissolve the only consistent competitive online Dominion circuit because they picked someone else to do commentary once? Jesus dude, grow up. I know commentary is something you care about and is important to you, but League is also important to the (other) people who run it and play in it. Ultimately, if the League is still running and is still fair to at least all of its participants (in the playing matches sense), there's no reason to encourage everyone to quit because of a decision over who talks over 1 of the hundreds of matches played each month.

It's not the only consistent competitive online Dominion circuit. There's also automatching + Isotropish leaderboard, which I personally vastly prefer over the League format, and that's why I have already quit the League (which has nothing to do with this issue).

From what I understand, Adam's problem here isn't that he didn't get to commentate, but rather, how it was handled. Without seeing the PMs, it's hard to say for sure if his having a problem with it is justified, but if it is, then it's certainly a much bigger issue than "a decision over who talks over 1 of the hundreds of matches played each month", because if handling disagreements and stuff like that fairly and openly isn't a high priority for the League organizers, then it has implications regarding everyone in the League to the extent that I don't find it at all unreasonable to expect at least some people to want to quit because of it.

[Limetime]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

It's so nobody can take home any respect.

[Awaclus]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

It's so nobody can take home any respect.

Too late — Adam already did.

[iguanaiguana]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

It's political

[Roadrunner7671]

I honestly think a rival league might be a good idea. Some people who love to play tons of Dominion could be in both; most people could choose one.

This is probably a stupid question, but how much work really goes into a league? Isn't it more of a time commitment where you have to keep everything updated?

[Limetime]

I honestly think a rival league might be a good idea. Some people who love to play tons of Dominion could be in both; most people could choose one.

This is probably a stupid question, but how much work really goes into a league? Isn't it more of a time commitment where you have to keep everything updated?

I am all for Adam organizing another monthly-ish competition as long as it doesn't create division in the forum.

[markusin]

I honestly think a rival league might be a good idea. Some people who love to play tons of Dominion could be in both; most people could choose one.

This is probably a stupid question, but how much work really goes into a league? Isn't it more of a time commitment where you have to keep everything updated?

I am all for Adam organizing another monthly-ish competition as long as it doesn't create division in the forum.

But there is already division in the forum in a sense. The League is a pretty big time commitment, while automatch+Isotropic is extremely broad. There could be a niche in between those two that could be exploited. I'd say those post-league-season mini tournament after-parties fit that well.

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

It's political

A shame, since DXV worked so hard to minimize the political aspects of Dominion.

[drsteelhammer]

If you feel like that none of your concerns were responded to, maybe start with making these public? I'm pretty confident that we responded to everything that wasn't a threat or a non-sequitur. But I'll gladly adress the points again here if that makes you happier.

[AdamH]

Uhh, so wow there's a lot of text here, all I did was make some deep-fried Twinkies™ for my wife for V-day and watch Walking Dead.

Some people don't agree with me, some of them are slightly misunderstanding what I'm saying but have been corrected by other people before I got here. Umm, what can I really add at this point?

So yes, the League is not formal, and Stef (and maybe some other moderators who help) runs it and everybody just does whatever he says. This has been OK with everyone and people play in the league because they think it's OK. I mean, I played in it for a while, I even modded for several seasons, so you know. If there was some reason that I thought the moderators would act with something other than integrity, I would like to know about it so I could re-evaluate my continued participation.

I believe that's happened and what I've chosen to do is to talk about it -- I no longer believe that the group of moderators currently running the league are capable of operating with enough integrity to moderate something to my satisfaction, and I think other people would agree. Maybe I have to show some PMs to do this, but right now it's not clear what I need to show and I'd rather reveal too little than reveal too much since that first one is much easier to fix.

In any case, the thing that's important to me is not to destroy the League -- the League seems fine, people like it. I'd want new moderators but as has been discussed that really isn't possible without destroying the League. In my opinion there really should be something in place for when we aren't happy with the moderators, but hindsight, etc.

[liopoil]

I don't know Adam, having read this thread, I see next to nothing that makes me question the integrity of the league moderators. If you want to convince anyone you'll have to post PMs, but I think that even if you do you are unlikely to find people agreeing with you.

[Limetime]

Is there anything that the moderators have done wrong besides afending you? If it is just that why don't you forgive and forget about it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Adam,

It is hard for me to figure out what is going on here. Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married, or maybe it's because you are so invested in Dominion, which is great, but maybe you have allowed your investment to take things too seriously. Honestly, it's hard to know because I really don't know what's going on here. It sounds like a he said/she said sort of thing. Perhaps, there was a cultural barrier between you and one of the mods. I have no idea. I'm sorry that you're upset, but I can't really side with you right now since I have no idea what's really going on.

Also, a big fear of mine is that if you try creating another league, you might create a lot of division on this board. We really don't need that, imo. I really don't want to relive the whole online debacle that happened a few months ago when SCSN put out the code. Please, no, not again. Thank you.

I really don't have much else to say. I wish I did.

Beyond Awesome

[dedicateddan]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

Dominion has always been sexy.

There's a lot of drama here over not very much. The league moderators are responsible for organizing official commentary. AdamH and others are welcome to do unofficial commentary.

Also, on the topic of other tournaments, would anyone be interested in a monthly Swiss tournament with 1 game matches?

[Roadrunner7671]

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?

Dominion has always been sexy.

There's a lot of drama here over not very much. The league moderators are responsible for organizing official commentary. AdamH and others are welcome to do unofficial commentary.

Also, on the topic of other tournaments, would anyone be interested in a monthly Swiss tournament with 1 game matches?

I would!

[enfynet]

Adam,

It is hard for me to figure out what is going on here. Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married, or maybe it's because you are so invested in Dominion, which is great, but maybe you have allowed your investment to take things too seriously. Honestly, it's hard to know because I really don't know what's going on here. It sounds like a he said/she said sort of thing. Perhaps, there was a cultural barrier between you and one of the mods. I have no idea. I'm sorry that you're upset, but I can't really side with you right now since I have no idea what's really going on.

Also, a big fear of mine is that if you try creating another league, you might create a lot of division on this board. We really don't need that, imo. I really don't want to relive the whole online debacle that happened a few months ago when SCSN put out the code. Please, no, not again. Thank you.

I really don't have much else to say. I wish I did.

Beyond Awesome

This just saved me a whole lot of typing. It's really hard to find the real problem among the numerous complaints and comments.

I haven't participated in the league enough to see any behavior from the moderators, good or bad.

[-Stef-]

Adam, there is a serious problem here. You're not actually asking any questions, and yet you get mad for not receiving answers.
Please make a simple post where you repeat your questions. You could quote yourself, or just write them down again.

--

Also, I really don't like you questioning my integrity, and consider the whole thing rather ironical.
Two championship matches ago, when you were still the one organizing it, you got into a personal fight with SCSN.
You decided to ban him on your twitch account, even though he was a player in the A-group and wanted to see it.
I was playing at the moment and unaware of anything going on, but I do understand you stripped MicQ from his moderator status for trying to solve this problem.
Bringing your personal beefs into something where you happen to have some form of power - that actually is the opposite of integrity.

The championship match after that we set up a new account to prevent all this from happening again. As I tried to explain to you, this was a personal service to you, even though you didn't recognize it as such. The only other option was making you choose between unbanning SCSN on your own channel and choosing a new commentator, which would basically have been the same as dumping you. The talks around setting up this stream were extremely stiff. Eventually you waited confirming that you were willing to commentate again (prima donna) until 30 min before the match started. I had to have a back up team available just because of that. That's the signs of a really bad team-player, very hard to work with.

--

Apparently you question my decision to move your post, and label it as abuse of power. Do you realize that by moving this thread, I stripped myself of all moderator rights to edit any of its posts? And that people who now hit the 'report' button now actually report to theory, instead of reporting to me?

[ashersky]

Adam, my two cents as an outsider with no dog in this fight:

Post the single most insulting PM you received from Stef (who already consented) with no commentary, and let the community weigh in on whether they feel it was insulting or inappropriate.

Don't argue or defend, just let others (especially those unconnected with all this) give their opinion.  See if their reactions match yours.

[faust]

In this case, it seems the best course of action would be for the league to be dissolved [...] I would rather not be the one to put it together to avoid potential conflict of interest, since I'm unfortunately the one who got stuck in the position of having to out the behavior of the current League moderation, but I am capable of moderating tournaments and would be willing to do so if called upon.

Two things:

1) If things happened the way you described it, the best course of action in my eyes is for the people who insulted you to apologize.

2) If you just want to bring attention to you being treated in an unfair manner, it might be better not to make your post seem like some sort of Machiavellian power play to take over the league.

Other than that I agree with what ashersky said.

[teamrocketgrunt]

This topic does put up a highly political problem up for debate. The league is organized privately, yet the thought that there is an obligation to adhere to standards meant for the relation between an individual and some form of elected or derived authority is not completely ridiculous. As far as I know, the Union of European Football Associations (UEFA) was treated by European Courts as if it were a governmental body, because - even though it is privately organized - within its field, it has such power that the relation between a player and the UEFA is comparable to that of a citizen and the government.

I say this not, because I think the league adminstration should change anything at the moment (I have yet to play a single league match, the administration so far seems swift and friendly to me), I say this because the question intrigues me. When does a privatly organized "something" become powerful enough within its renumerative field that it has to implement measures like elections, when does it need to secure that all administrative measures with an impact on fundamental individual rights have to have written grounds agreed upon by the public ("laws" if you will) and that decisions must be justiciable?

I believe, this league is not big enough yet. More importantly, the ones running the league provide a service for every participant free of charge on a voluntary basis. This does not imply that something being commercialized is the deciding factor, but since there is no revenue you can't really demand that the administrators take all of the work upon themselves that would have to be done to include every possible ruling problem (there are rules and regulations already) and involve the public on every issue. Also, the first step would have to be asking the public (the league participants) if they even want this. I would imagine that there are those who want administration to be as speedy as possible because it's more fun this way. That said, I would like to offer my brainpower (there's little) if the administrators do want to extend rulings or implement similar measures, if my free time permits it. I have no skills regarding technological stuff and no league experience though, so I would probably be a liability. Still.

Something a little more on-topic:

I like AdamH's commentary. As I stated in my intro, his and Qvist's videos were my gateway to online Dominion. I have also watched other people stream and I enjoy their commentary as well. I recently watched a stream where MicQsenoch explained for two minutes how he chipped a tooth by biting down too hard on his fork, before calmly explaining what was going on in the game. I thought it was awesome. Point is, I enjoy hearing and seeing different people stream, not just for their playstyle but also because it's a (weird?) way of getting to know different personalities. AdamH has a kind of quality that screams official broadcast, but he is not the only option by far and picking different commentators for championship matches seems to provide its benefits.

In this case, DXV provided some useful insights as to how the co-commentator was picked. Also, I think this thread has been very civil so far, so I would advise against posting private PMs. I think Stef's request that AdamH states his questions or quotes them seems very reasonable to me.

[Voltaire]

I don't know Adam, having read this thread, I see next to nothing that makes me question the integrity of the league moderators. If you want to convince anyone you'll have to post PMs, but I think that even if you do you are unlikely to find people agreeing with you.

[Burning Skull]

I don't know Adam, having read this thread, I see next to nothing that makes me question the integrity of the league moderators. If you want to convince anyone you'll have to post PMs, but I think that even if you do you are unlikely to find people agreeing with you.

[AdamH]

Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married

Look, I understand you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I'd really rather the rest of my life stay separated from this. The rest of my life is going just fine and I'm seeing this very clearly, I've had several weeks to read and re-read these PMs, I've talked to IRL friends who I trust more than anyone I've met on the internet. I would really appreciate it if my personal life didn't enter this discussion, it's none of anyone's business by my own and the people I choose to share it with.

Yes, my feelings are hurt. That tends to happen when people insult you personally. If it was just my feelings that were hurt, I don't think I'd be making such a stink about this. I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches (nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this -- I feel like there's something at stake here for me besides my own personal feelings.

But I don't want to make this personal -- my personal life is my own and not any of yours. Please keep it out of this. I thought I had actually brought this up publicly before, but it turns out I think that discussion happened in the League Staff sub-board and I no longer have access to it. In any case, now you all know, please don't make assumptions about my personal life; I take it... personally (ba dum tss).


A lot of people have said that my words have no teeth without seeing the PMs. I agree, I'd think the same thing in your shoes. I've seen some ideas suggested here, most of them seem perfectly reasonable but I can't do all of them, you know? I'd like to know what people actually want to see before doing something un-undoable. If only people could put +1s on the posts whose ideas they liked... I'll reiterate -- I'm willing to share anything, I have nothing to hide, but I don't want to go posting something that I shouldn't have, and it's just not clear to me what I should post yet. Until that happens, it would be unreasonable of me to expect anyone to take my word over anyone else's.


As for creating a division on the board, or trying to take over the League for myself -- that's definitely not what I want. I never said I wanted that. Please read my posts carefully and you'll see exactly what I'm saying and what I want. Organizing the League was something I felt I had to put up with in order to do what I was good at, which was organizing the Champion matches -- at the end of season 11, Stef and I had a discussion and we both agreed that it made more sense for me to not be a full League moderator but still put together the champion matches.

My point is that organizing an online league or tournament isn't exactly at the top of my list -- I've been putting all of my efforts into my IRL scene (mostly because of Adventures) and there are plenty of people online who would rather help out with this. I don't want all of the power or the responsibility; I could probably handle it but I'd really rather not. I feel the League moderators have acted with a lack of integrity here severe enough that it would be dishonest of me not to tell the community, and I think the solution is that they don't moderate the League anymore. It is because they wouldn't want to step down that the League would be dissolved and something put in its place, but I'd really like for that to not be my problem, which is why I said the community should come up with it. I feel like I already typed all of this in my OP, though. Is something not clear?

Adam, there is a serious problem here. You're not actually asking any questions, and yet you get mad for not receiving answers.
Please make a simple post where you repeat your questions. You could quote yourself, or just write them down again.

I asked these questions multiple times over the course of several PMs to you and other League moderators with no answer. I stated in the OP of this post that I had asked those questions and didn't hear a response. Is the serious problem here that I didn't use a question mark in my OP? There! I just used one!

But fine, here's the list. I'll use question marks, even. If you don't want to answer the questions publicly, you can PM me the answers or something.

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?

To be fair, this question was partially answered as I mentioned in my OP -- they had said I no longer represent the community as someone they want to watch. That answer is not true, so I'm hoping for a justification that is actually correct in this case.

Some have said that the mods shouldn't have to answer question 2, I disagree. When I ask this question and receive personal insults in a response, I'd say that among the possible reasons they could have for this would be "we don't like you." OK, sometimes people don't like me, that's fine, but that shouldn't enter the decisions they make as a League moderator. If my opponent and I play a match and agree that the outcome is 3-3, and then a moderator comes in and says "replay two of the games that you won" then I'd want some justification for that, and "I don't like you" wouldn't cut it for me. The mods are acting in their capacity as mods for the purpose of kicking me out of champion match commentary, I fail to see the difference between this and other situations where they act in their capacity as mods.

Also, I really don't like you questioning my integrity, and consider the whole thing rather ironical.
Two championship matches ago, when you were still the one organizing it, you got into a personal fight with SCSN.
You decided to ban him on your twitch account, even though he was a player in the A-group and wanted to see it.
I was playing at the moment and unaware of anything going on, but I do understand you stripped MicQ from his moderator status for trying to solve this problem.
Bringing your personal beefs into something where you happen to have some form of power - that actually is the opposite of integrity.

The championship match after that we set up a new account to prevent all this from happening again. As I tried to explain to you, this was a personal service to you, even though you didn't recognize it as such. The only other option was making you choose between unbanning SCSN on your own channel and choosing a new commentator, which would basically have been the same as dumping you. The talks around setting up this stream were extremely stiff. Eventually you waited confirming that you were willing to commentate again (prima donna) until 30 min before the match started. I had to have a back up team available just because of that. That's the signs of a really bad team-player, very hard to work with.

I banned SCSN from my Twitch channel a long time ago because he was posting personal insults in my chat. This does not stop him from viewing anything, it just makes it so he can't post in my chat. MQ unbanned him once without asking me, and I re-banned him; since MQ didn't ask me or even tell me about it, I took away his mod powers in my channel. It's my Twitch channel, I'll ban or mod whoever I want; I stand behind all of these decisions. SCSN is the one who posted insults in my chat, that is why I banned him; I don't think anyone around here would question my integrity as a result of that decision (if you do, I can back this up, it seems pretty clear to me though).

When this was brought to your attention, you said you didn't like it and asked me to unban SCSN. I said I wasn't willing to do this on my channel. You then suggested we create another channel and we both agreed that was a good idea -- we weren't having trouble getting viewers anymore which is the main reason it was on my channel in the first place. There was some discussion about the semantics of a rule you wanted to implement on this channel that we had some disagreement on, but I didn't care enough to continue it -- this solution made everyone happy.

I'm questioning your integrity for reasons entirely unrelated to this. If you don't like it, then I'd suggest acting with integrity.

You had not told me of the date or time of that champion match until like a day or two before it was happening -- I was not included in the discussion for when that match would take place which had happened previously (these things aren't scheduled around me, but it's much easier for me to plan my life around these things if I know when they're going to be). My wife and I had plans for that weekend that we had to completely rearrange to accommodate this, and I was trying to coordinate with Deadlock to make sure I had someone to commentate with. This same situation happened with the F.DS Championship final match as well, I was not given advance notice and had to tear apart my whole weekend to make it happen for you. Am I questioning your integrity or attacking your character because of this? No. This season I was going to make sure I sent a PM reminding the contenders of the champion match to let me know once they had decided on a date/time.

I don't appreciate you blaming this on me and attacking my character (prima donna). At least this time you're doing it publicly so people can see it.

Apparently you question my decision to move your post, and label it as abuse of power. Do you realize that by moving this thread, I stripped myself of all moderator rights to edit any of its posts? And that people who now hit the 'report' button now actually report to theory, instead of reporting to me?

Theory sees all of the reports regardless, I think. This thread belongs in the Dominion League board, not here. You couldn't edit posts there without it showing up that the post had been edited. Yes, you moving the topic here is a clear abuse of power, don't try and pretend that it isn't.

[theory]

This is not R/S/P material.  I'm fine with moving it to General Dominion Discussion so as to avoid conflicts of interest between moderators, though I would have thought that like any other complaint about the league, it would belong in the league forum.

[Roadrunner7671]

This topic is just going everywhere!

[Voltaire]

I will say, I do think this belongs where it was originally posted (in the League forum).

The scheduling issue also appears to be a legitimate breakdown in communication, and Stef's "primma donna" comment is uncalled for. However, nobody is perfect, and I do not see anything yet that merits a change in league organization. I do not know the way forward as the relationships involved appear to be so significantly damaged everyone assumes the other is operating in bad faith.

[werothegreat]

Given that most of us are not privy to these PMs (and probably, really should not be in any case), this is basically just "he said/he said".  We can't really arrive at any sort of informed decision with the information we have.  AdamH is upset, Stef does not understand why he's upset, or thinks he should not be upset.  That's really all I can tell here - I don't have enough information to know who is "right" or "wrong".

That said, it does sound like the League might need some restructuring.  I think it might be best if the moderators were rotated, or at least voted on by the forum.  I realize that might make things complicated for theory to keep changing who's a moderator, but I think that would be enough to quell accusations of misconduct.  I realize the League is Stef's baby, but if the League is going to function as the main competitive, ranked outlet for online Dominion play, which it is increasing looking like, then maybe Stef needs to let go and allow the community to start making decisions.

[Roadrunner7671]

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.

[AdrianHealey]

I have never seen the idea of 'voting for mods' work out in any decent way in my entire life. There is also no reason to change anything what so ever. Some feelings were hurt. This is bad, but this isn't particularly threatening the foundation of the league in any capacity.

Please just be adults, talk it out amongst yourselves and move on.

[iguanaiguana]

Whatever solution is come to, I would like to see Adam continue to broadcast commentary on some of the league championship matches (but not every single one, obviously.)

If a solution can't be reached where this happens, that would be disappointing. It seems like we can get there even if some people who are organizing the matches dislike each other.

The league championship matches are one of the nicest things about this community; I really enjoy watching the playbacks, and Adam is good at commenting for them.

Disagreements between management and talent are not uncommon in any field, anywhere, ever.

[AdamH]

Whatever solution is come to, I would like to see Adam continue to broadcast commentary on some of the league championship matches (but not every single one, obviously.)

If I had it my way, there would be multiple "teams" of commentators that would do high-profile matches. These teams would have had the opportunity to not only practice commentary off-line at some point so they can develop some good chemistry, but also should have played the kingdoms to be used if possible and rehearse all of the technical parts of making such a broadcast so that you don't get any nasty surprises on-air. One person could be on multiple teams, but the idea is that the players would choose a date and time that works for them and hopefully we have at least one team where everyone is available and has the time beforehand to properly prepare.

The teams would try to have a mix of color commentary and high-level analysis, etc. Each person on the team should know what duties they need to perform (I'll make sure I track X's deck closely and try to monitor the chat, you make sure to track Y's deck closely and monitor the stream visuals/make adjustments; you be more of a narrator and I'll ask more questions and maybe we can switch these roles every 2 games).

I've also been toying with the idea of having another person on the "team" whose microphone is muted 99% of the time, but can watch for technical issues and monitor the chat to bring interesting points to the commentators' attention -- it gives commentators a few less things to focus on.

There would also be an easier-to-access way to practice commentary, but that's sort of tangentially related and kind of hard to do. I'd really like to see some people who got a handful of votes in that last poll get a shot at doing some commentary at some point -- a fresh voice on the scene is really nice to have.

[AdrianHealey]

Whatever solution is come to, I would like to see Adam continue to broadcast commentary on some of the league championship matches (but not every single one, obviously.)

If I had it my way, there would be multiple "teams" of commentators that would do high-profile matches. These teams would have had the opportunity to not only practice commentary off-line at some point so they can develop some good chemistry, but also should have played the kingdoms to be used if possible and rehearse all of the technical parts of making such a broadcast so that you don't get any nasty surprises on-air. One person could be on multiple teams, but the idea is that the players would choose a date and time that works for them and hopefully we have at least one team where everyone is available and has the time beforehand to properly prepare.

The teams would try to have a mix of color commentary and high-level analysis, etc. Each person on the team should know what duties they need to perform (I'll make sure I track X's deck closely and try to monitor the chat, you make sure to track Y's deck closely and monitor the stream visuals/make adjustments; you be more of a narrator and I'll ask more questions and maybe we can switch these roles every 2 games).

I've also been toying with the idea of having another person on the "team" whose microphone is muted 99% of the time, but can watch for technical issues and monitor the chat to bring interesting points to the commentators' attention -- it gives commentators a few less things to focus on.

There would also be an easier-to-access way to practice commentary, but that's sort of tangentially related and kind of hard to do. I'd really like to see some people who got a handful of votes in that last poll get a shot at doing some commentary at some point -- a fresh voice on the scene is really nice to have.

Without commentating on any other aspects of the current controversy:

This sounds like a great idea. My only concern would be: the amount of work to make this happen seems high.

[drsteelhammer]

Adam, there is a serious problem here. You're not actually asking any questions, and yet you get mad for not receiving answers.
Please make a simple post where you repeat your questions. You could quote yourself, or just write them down again.

I asked these questions multiple times over the course of several PMs to you and other League moderators with no answer. I stated in the OP of this post that I had asked those questions and didn't hear a response. Is the serious problem here that I didn't use a question mark in my OP? There! I just used one!

But fine, here's the list. I'll use question marks, even. If you don't want to answer the questions publicly, you can PM me the answers or something.

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?

To be fair, this question was partially answered as I mentioned in my OP -- they had said I no longer represent the community as someone they want to watch. That answer is not true, so I'm hoping for a justification that is actually correct in this case.

Some have said that the mods shouldn't have to answer question 2, I disagree. When I ask this question and receive personal insults in a response, I'd say that among the possible reasons they could have for this would be "we don't like you." OK, sometimes people don't like me, that's fine, but that shouldn't enter the decisions they make as a League moderator. If my opponent and I play a match and agree that the outcome is 3-3, and then a moderator comes in and says "replay two of the games that you won" then I'd want some justification for that, and "I don't like you" wouldn't cut it for me. The mods are acting in their capacity as mods for the purpose of kicking me out of champion match commentary, I fail to see the difference between this and other situations where they act in their capacity as mods.

1. You have shown in this thread that you show respect for what has been said in PMs. Why should we, the mods, break this with other people's PMs? If they want to speak up here, they are welcome to do so, but I don't think it is fair for us to just "out" them here.

2. There are several reasons for this: Firstly, sharing your screen with people you don't know is a private affair and we don't have the authority to force them to share a screen with you.

Secondly, we made it clear we are not kicking you out. As far as I'm aware you have casted 12 out of 13 season Champion matches and you were in consideration for this one aswell. Donald picked someone else, it was not even our decision. If I remember correctly, I said in the first PM that this is not something eternal and that I personally would like to see you back some time. The phrase "burning bridges" was only uttered by you.

Thirdly, we did not fulfil anyone's wishes with this decision. We've discussed this temporary between us and came to this agreement. Your personal attacks against us just make this look like the right decision. I am still very much willing to look past all this here in the future.

[-Stef-]

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?

1a) The what: it's mostly about your rants on the forum, people being fed up with your continuous attempts to correct other peoples behavior and doing so in a very passive-aggressive manner.
1b) The who: No, I'm not going to name anyone. I also truly don't understand how you even ask for that. It's not as though you treat people criticizing you lightheartedly.

2. I can tell you the group of players that don't want to cooperate with you anymore has become of such weight that if they actually would leave the league, I would leave it too.


You seem to think the league championship matches are a big succes because of you, that you spend a lot of energy creating that succes, and that this entitles you to owning those matches. I disagree on almost all parts of that sentence. First of all, these matches are not a big succes at all. The most recent one had double the number of viewers and that still was below 1% of what some other games get. Secondly, I don't think you spend a lot of effort on them at all - apparently we have an entirely different definition of hard work. Finally it doesn't entitle you to anything, and certainly doesn't provide you with a wildcard to send all the negative energy you've been sending me in PMs over the last couple of months.

People nowadays seem to take the league for granted. Well, I guess that's fine, I'm not doing this because I'm looking for gratitude. But having to answer to threads like these, man, that is really depressing and energy consuming.

This is not R/S/P material.  I'm fine with moving it to General Dominion Discussion so as to avoid conflicts of interest between moderators, though I would have thought that like any other complaint about the league, it would belong in the league forum.

I initially moved this topic because I am totally fed up with it. Adams opening post was probably a bit of a surprise to most of you, but he has been building up to it in a continuously worsening series of PMs over the last months. f.ds has been swarmed with negativity, and I just want it to stop. I wanted the league subforum to be a place where people can come to schedule and play matches, talk about strategy/interesting games, announce their livestreamed matches if they like. If you're trying to avoid the drama, the league subforum is a safe place to be. That's how naive I can be.

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.

Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?

I know at least part of this one.

Stef asked me if I was interesting in commentating. I said sure. He said I should have someone with me, did I have an opinion there. I said well, someone with experience with commentating who would have things to talk about. He suggested four people; WW up front, then Adam (noting that they'd had some kind of argument but still being willing to have him), SCSN and jsh357. My first pick was SCSN, who said yes.

Adam, did you read this post? Did you realize that I suggested you, just because I realized it would be a dream for you, even though we were in the middle of a fight? Would your own integrity pass that test?


For those of you that actually do appreciate the league, go find some posts of this dude to upvote. He has silently been doing a lot of the league work in the last couple of months, without ever a single complaint.

[funkdoc]

helping a community out with the expectation of getting power or influence or ANYTHING in return is fucked up imo. do it because you love doing it, and don't assume anyone will even so much as thank you for it.

it's hard for me to have sympathy for adam here, and i've really lost a lot of respect for him.  i do think it's really bad to give the championship match date only a day or two in advance, though.  if true that's a major blowup for the league - you should be setting that at least a week in advance and hyping it up!  but i don't think anyone has a right to do commentary no matter how popular they are, and don't care if someone feels they "need" that experience.  frankly, i think it's a bad thing to have the same commentator for every major event.

time and time again, adam, i see you trying to more or less run this community and having meltdowns when it doesn't work.  you've tried making us change the way we post on this forum, you've tried to demonize the MMF mod by making specious-at-best legal arguments, and you try to frame it as a "personal insult" and paint the person as an ogre when someone calls your play stupid.  you make analogies that imply this entire forum is your personal playground, and now you do this.

i don't care if you singlehandedly got dominion into MLG, that still wouldn't justify this sense of entitlement i see.  and what you've done, though nice, isn't in the same universe as that.  no one person is bigger than the scene, period.

i've been giving you the benefit of the doubt for a while, and i still believe you're a good guy deep down.  i'd totally chill with you on some random IRL shit, but this game brings out a side of you that i'd rather not be around.  you've threatened to leave this forum as if that would be some kind of punishment for our sins, but at this point i wonder if that wouldn't be for the best for all involved.

[Voltaire]

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.

Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

I'll say this much, if we ever voted on league mods I'd vote for Stef unless he asks me not to.

[werothegreat]

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.

Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

I'll say this much, if we ever voted on league mods I'd vote for Stef unless he asks me not to.

Which would be perfectly fine.  It's just a mandate for authority would make it (hopefully) less common for there to be controversies like this.

[Kirian]

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.

Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

I'll say this much, if we ever voted on league mods I'd vote for Stef unless he asks me not to.

Which would be perfectly fine.  It's just a mandate for authority would make it (hopefully) less common for there to be controversies like this.

Man, there's no need for a mandate for authority.  Stef runs the league, with some help from others.  Anyone who has trouble with that is free to not play in the league.

At no point while I was running the IsoDom/GokoDom did anyone ever suggest a vote or referendum or... anything at all, was necessary or even useful, I mean, what the hell?  Seriously, what the hell?

time and time again, adam, i see you trying to more or less run this community and having meltdowns when it doesn't work.  you've tried making us change the way we post on this forum, you've tried to demonize the MMF mod by making specious-at-best legal arguments, and you try to frame it as a "personal insult" and paint the person as an ogre when someone calls your play stupid.  you make analogies that imply this entire forum is your personal playground, and now you do this.

Seriously, Adam, funkdoc is completely right here.  Chill out, man.  Let it go.

[ignorentmen]

As one who was thinking about joining the league I can now say that I will not be.

Not because of Adam's post, or even what he said or implied about the mods.

Instead it has been the reactions. There seems to be a belief that all is fine and well on this forum. After seeing this and other similarly toned threads i have to say that statement isnt true. I have never been a very active poster on this forum but I can't imagine being more active after this. I am personally disgusted and repelled by the virtriole and aggression. No one is making me stay, certainly, but if the best argument you have is "if you don't like it then leave" then I think some serious levels of introspection are needed.

I'll keep coming for the updates on new expansions and online implementation, but really board game geek is better for that.

[schadd]

who wants to play red scare? i dunno whether stef or adamh is mr. mccarthy but i have dibs on one of those people that died

also

80 people...that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

now hey. one time MdLC pointed out a rule thing to me and then it wasnt a problem

[DG]

As one who was thinking about joining the league I can now say that I will not be.

If you want to play Dominion then the league is still the best place to do that. People have personalities and they will clash, almost inevitably, over anything and everything. Ideally it isn't going to be in public and ideally it isn't between people who've all put a lot into time into this, but the more time people invest in something the more emotionally invested they get too. Nobody else should let it become their problem.

[Awaclus]

If you want to play Dominion when you're tired, in a bad mood, and have a headache, then the league is still the best place to do that.

FTFY. If you want to play Dominion when you actually feel good about playing Dominion, finding an automatch on Making Fun is a way better place to do that.

[MdLC]

80 people...that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

now hey. one time MdLC pointed out a rule thing to me and then it wasnt a problem

And it was a very nice exchange. It almost made me feel bad for pointing it out since it helped me.

[Chris is me]

So I'm not going to be intentionally mean or anything like that, but I'm not really going to sugar coat this post, because I don't think it will make much of a difference. Either AdamH will react to it negatively, or he will listen to the post and consider the points made in it. I don't think the tone I use makes much of a difference at this point.

Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married

Look, I understand you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I'd really rather the rest of my life stay separated from this. The rest of my life is going just fine and I'm seeing this very clearly, I've had several weeks to read and re-read these PMs, I've talked to IRL friends who I trust more than anyone I've met on the internet. I would really appreciate it if my personal life didn't enter this discussion, it's none of anyone's business by my own and the people I choose to share it with.

Yes, my feelings are hurt. That tends to happen when people insult you personally. If it was just my feelings that were hurt, I don't think I'd be making such a stink about this. I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches (nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this -- I feel like there's something at stake here for me besides my own personal feelings.

But I don't want to make this personal -- my personal life is my own and not any of yours. Please keep it out of this. I thought I had actually brought this up publicly before, but it turns out I think that discussion happened in the League Staff sub-board and I no longer have access to it. In any case, now you all know, please don't make assumptions about my personal life; I take it... personally (ba dum tss).

So this isn't the first time people have said this. I've said it before, others have as well during the numerous negative threads on F.DS you've been involved in. Perhaps you're wondering why this comes up so often. It really has nothing to do with any of us wanting to make the debate personal, or taking shots at you, or anything like that.

Frankly, what's happening when people say this is that people are observing you having a disproportionately negative reaction to words, posts, or events in F.DS, and that you're stirring shit an order of magnitude more than the situation calls for. I mean, this particular case we can't (or at least initially couldn't) judge if you were making a mountain out of a molehill, but in other cases you've taken comments people have considered perfectly innocuous and read a degree of hostility in them no one else could, so I have to infer that it's happening here to some extent.

Anyway, when people see this strong, emotional response to events and perceived hardship blow up out of nowhere, they're asking about your personal life because frankly they don't understand how you could be so hotheaded and rushing to judgement based on the facts of the scenario alone. They are suspecting that you are stressed in other manners of your life, and that said stress is spilling over into your Dominion Strategy posts and interactions with others. The reason they are suspecting this is because they are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. They are trying to offer you an explanation for why you're acting out so much, an explanation that lets you save face and lets them continue to regard you highly. And frankly it doesn't always make much sense why you're reacting this way otherwise.

You don't have to tell us about your personal life here, that's not what we're asking of you at all, and ultimately only you can say if you've got other shit going on that's influencing the way you react to things, but honestly, after all this, maybe you just take everything fucking personally. I don't know anymore dude.

A lot of people have said that my words have no teeth without seeing the PMs. I agree, I'd think the same thing in your shoes. I've seen some ideas suggested here, most of them seem perfectly reasonable but I can't do all of them, you know? I'd like to know what people actually want to see before doing something un-undoable. If only people could put +1s on the posts whose ideas they liked... I'll reiterate -- I'm willing to share anything, I have nothing to hide, but I don't want to go posting something that I shouldn't have, and it's just not clear to me what I should post yet. Until that happens, it would be unreasonable of me to expect anyone to take my word over anyone else's.

This conclusion I'm coming to is a big stretch here, could be totally off base, but I have trouble understanding a different one. I think you're afraid that if you actually share the PMs you won't have as much support as you would if you didn't. You've seen it happen before - you feel wronged by others, lash out, but don't receive much support for it, and those are when the fights were in public when people could see everything. You say you want to post something you shouldn't, but you have repeatedly attacked Stef's character when he has said openly that he would much rather you post the PMs he sent rather than just saying he lacks integrity over and over again. The only reason I can think you aren't posting his PMs when you know that is actually preferred by him than how you are currently treating him, is if you think we won't be as sympathetic once you do. I just don't understand it.

As for creating a division on the board, or trying to take over the League for myself -- that's definitely not what I want. I never said I wanted that. Please read my posts carefully and you'll see exactly what I'm saying and what I want. Organizing the League was something I felt I had to put up with in order to do what I was good at, which was organizing the Champion matches -- at the end of season 11, Stef and I had a discussion and we both agreed that it made more sense for me to not be a full League moderator but still put together the champion matches.

My point is that organizing an online league or tournament isn't exactly at the top of my list -- I've been putting all of my efforts into my IRL scene (mostly because of Adventures) and there are plenty of people online who would rather help out with this. I don't want all of the power or the responsibility; I could probably handle it but I'd really rather not. I feel the League moderators have acted with a lack of integrity here severe enough that it would be dishonest of me not to tell the community, and I think the solution is that they don't moderate the League anymore. It is because they wouldn't want to step down that the League would be dissolved and something put in its place, but I'd really like for that to not be my problem, which is why I said the community should come up with it. I feel like I already typed all of this in my OP, though. Is something not clear?

You want a division on the board - you want the community to turn against the current League moderators. Don't deny that, it's what you're asking us to do. Stop playing in the League so that we can get new moderators. This is exactly what you said. This will divide the community between those who support the moderators and those who support you. You know this.

I'm questioning your integrity for reasons entirely unrelated to this. If you don't like it, then I'd suggest acting with integrity.

And those reasons are...? Because he didn't respond to a few PMs? What did the PMs he didn't respond to say? You should have no issue sharing THOSE, since those are a completely one way discussion, right? You created all that content. And regardless, Stef said he would rather you post his PMs than continue to just insult him like this. You're being a huge dick dude. Without knowing any of the story, just the way you are treating Stef in this thread makes me and I think many others inclined to take his side.

You had not told me of the date or time of that champion match until like a day or two before it was happening -- I was not included in the discussion for when that match would take place which had happened previously

Point of clarification: Was this not posted in the forum for everyone to see several days in advance, like it always is?

Theory sees all of the reports regardless, I think. This thread belongs in the Dominion League board, not here. You couldn't edit posts there without it showing up that the post had been edited. Yes, you moving the topic here is a clear abuse of power, don't try and pretend that it isn't.

Dude, there's a redirect link created when he moves a thread. This isn't hidden from ANYONE. I saw it, and I never go here. If you have legitimate gripes, splitting hairs and being so damn petty isn't winning you any favors.

Look, after reading this whole thread Adam, all I can say is that, without knowing what happened, I can totally plausibly see how some moderators could have difficulty working with you and not want to include you in some aspects of planning the final match. Stef seems more than accomodating - for heaven's sake, while you were arguing (and it's not like Stef is the world's most argumentative person) he put aside your quarrels to ask the creator of Dominion if he would like to do commentary with you. I could totally see how literally anything negative said about you in PMs when you demanded to know why you were excluded was taken as an insult. I can totally see how at some point they decided no answer would satisfy you without resulting to more screaming about how they're insulting you. You're being really difficult here. Aren't we all kind of sick of this?

I'm sorry, dude. I enjoy your stream, I respect your opinions, I like your commentary, but please learn to work with people you don't see eye to eye with!

[SirSlugma]

This is all a whole ball of nasty unnecessary drama, and I'll try to avoid taking a side by sticking to the point here.

If Adam is irritated by being "excluded" from broadcasting future championship matches, and nobody seems to be actually against him broadcasting future matches, then what are we even arguing about?

There are some feelings hurt, and that'll have to be addressed by and between the hurt parties.  Aside from that, the League seems to be perfectly within its bounds and any negativity towards the League as a forum for competitive Dominion play seems to just be detrimental to the community as a whole.

[Titandrake]

This is all a whole ball of nasty unnecessary drama, and I'll try to avoid taking a side by sticking to the point here.

If Adam is irritated by being "excluded" from broadcasting future championship matches, and nobody seems to be actually against him broadcasting future matches, then what are we even arguing about?

There are some feelings hurt, and that'll have to be addressed by and between the hurt parties.  Aside from that, the League seems to be perfectly within its bounds and any negativity towards the League as a forum for competitive Dominion play seems to just be detrimental to the community as a whole.

The argument is about Adam's irritation, and whether he's justified in his irritation or not. From what I've seen, the most recent championship match was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not important by itself. Adam isn't excluded from future commentary (so far), but that's not actually why every party's mad.

That being said, this argument isn't directly relevant to anyone outside of the Dominion League staff. Adam thinks publicizing part of the argument is necessary to be treated fairly, and well I have no opinion on that. I'm not invested in either the League or any of the League staff, and will be observing this from the roof of a three-story car park with binoculars.

When there's an argument that's heavily about the character of the people involved, and those people have invested significant time into something, sparks are almost always going to fly. If your hair catches on fire for getting too close, you've got nobody to blame.

[michaeljb]

Aside from that, the League seems to be perfectly within its bounds and any negativity towards the League as a forum for competitive Dominion play seems to just be detrimental to the community as a whole.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I wanted to clarify why I upvoted this post (PPE: well that was all the original intent of this post was anyway):

If you want to play Dominion when you're tired, in a bad mood, and have a headache, then the league is still the best place to do that.

FTFY. If you want to play Dominion when you actually feel good about playing Dominion, finding an automatch on Making Fun is a way better place to do that.

The League is a great forum for competitive Dominion play, but scheduling matches can certainly be difficult, by no fault of the league moderators or other members of your division. This is why I took a break from the league around seasons 5-10, and why I'm doing the same thing right now--and as I said in my division's thread, I hope to return before long.

Apart from the inherent difficulty of scheduling matches and sometimes playing a match in a bad mental state, I've had nothing but good experiences with the League.

--

Adam, I really hope drsteelhammer's and Stef's posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14758.msg568707#msg568707 and http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14758.msg568709#msg568709) answered your questions.

I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches(nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this

If I'm understanding this section correctly, you think the only way you can improve as a commentator is by commentating championship matches? Why not other regular-season league matches, or even just casual matches? I'm not sure if my video card/internet connection or scheduling abilities would be up to snuff for this, but I'd be willing to try to setup matches with someone that you'd be able to commentate.

[AdamH]

There have been a lot of things said here about me. I've read them. If necessary I will respond to them individually, but I'm not going to do that right now.

I'd really recommend that you all actually read my posts and read what I'm saying. Don't put words in my mouth and then get mad at me because I said the words you put in my mouth. The main point of confusion I see right now is that people think I believe I'm entitled to commentate ALL of the champion matches. This is not the case; the issue is that I've been shut out of all participation indefinitely and the reasons behind this decision.

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?

1a) The what: it's mostly about your rants on the forum, people being fed up with your continuous attempts to correct other peoples behavior and doing so in a very passive-aggressive manner.
1b) The who: No, I'm not going to name anyone. I also truly don't understand how you even ask for that. It's not as though you treat people criticizing you lightheartedly.

2. I can tell you the group of players that don't want to cooperate with you anymore has become of such weight that if they actually would leave the league, I would leave it too.

You've already been more helpful in this post than in the total of all PMs I received, so thank you for that.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly: I am only asking for clarification here so that I know exactly what you're saying.

1a: you said "mostly" -- is there anything else, anything at all, other than my posts on other parts of the forum? It's important that I know everything, namely because once I explain why this argument is not valid, I want it to be very clear that you have no legs to stand on whatsoever. If you have some other reason that's valid, then I will just accept that and be done with this.

1b: I'll clarify why I want to know who it is, even though it seems obvious to me. You and other mods have said I'm welcome back to commentate once the conflicts are resolved, and this is supposed to make you all look better like you aren't just kicking me out. Assuming you are justified in doing this, if I don't know what the conflicts are (I'm close, but you still need to finish answering 1a) and I don't know who they are with, then how am I supposed to resolve the conflicts? I can't possibly do anything, and I have no way of knowing what it is I could do that might come closer to resolving these conflicts. From my perspective (or from anyone's perspective that isn't you or someone you won't name), how is this any different from just kicking me out? Unless you can translate this into something I can do differently, I can't do anything with it.

2: OK I actually don't understand what you're saying here. I don't understand "of such weight" -- like that doesn't give me any idea of how many people your "Adam Horton Hate Group" has. It could have anywhere from 2 to 55 or even more people in it. Let's say it has 55 people in it, I guess. So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but right now what I see is not a justification, it's your own personal preference. So I guess I will guess what you are saying and you can confirm?

So what I think you're saying is that there's a group of people out there who dislike me so much that either [they would quit the league if I had anything to do with the league at all]/[they would quit the league if I commentated champion matches]/[they would not be willing to share their screen with me for the purpose of commentating champion matches]/[something else?]. The group has asked the league moderators to make a decision using their authority as league moderators to make it so that I'm not allowed to commentate any champion matches until they say so, and the group has also asked that [the existence and contents of the group are kept private]/[I have no tools to fix the conflict]/[I really don't understand this part, like I can't even make assumptions that make sense to me. How are you justifying the fact that you as league moderators are using your authority to accommodate people who have problems with me that are unrelated to the league and the champion match and my commentary when they are the ones coming to you with whatever option you selected above? It seems that they are the ones trying to create this division based on factors completely unrelated to the League and you've brought it to the League by kicking me out of commentary, despite that the community has clearly shown that they want me to be involved (or is the group so small that they voted in the poll and were just vastly outnumbered?)]

Or am I missing something? Like, this part just doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain it in little words? Why is it appropriate for you to make a League-based decision like the one you have made (I can't commentate until the conflict is fixed PLUS I have no tools to fix the conflict) based on a group's request for entirely non-league-related reasons? Why is the course of action you have taken better than telling them that they just need an attitude adjustment if they can't play nice with someone who has had no problems with the League before and has put in a lot of work to make the League and the champion matches what they are?

[singletee]

Firstly, sharing your screen with people you don't know is a private affair and we don't have the authority to force them to share a screen with you.

I don't understand this point. Don't the championship match players broadcast their screen on twitch where the whole Internet (including Adam) can see it anyway?

[AdamH]

Firstly, sharing your screen with people you don't know is a private affair and we don't have the authority to force them to share a screen with you.

I don't understand this point. Don't the championship match players broadcast their screen on twitch where the whole Internet (including Adam) can see it anyway?

Normally people only share a portion of their screen with the internet when they stream (the game window). For these broadcasts we use software that allows me and other broadcasters to see the players' whole screens.

Nobody is forced to participate in or have the champion match broadcast if they aren't comfortable. In this case we either just streamed the other person's perspective or don't stream it at all if both parties would rather not.

[AdamH]

Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married

Look, I understand you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I'd really rather the rest of my life stay separated from this. The rest of my life is going just fine and I'm seeing this very clearly, I've had several weeks to read and re-read these PMs, I've talked to IRL friends who I trust more than anyone I've met on the internet. I would really appreciate it if my personal life didn't enter this discussion, it's none of anyone's business by my own and the people I choose to share it with.

Yes, my feelings are hurt. That tends to happen when people insult you personally. If it was just my feelings that were hurt, I don't think I'd be making such a stink about this. I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches (nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this -- I feel like there's something at stake here for me besides my own personal feelings.

But I don't want to make this personal -- my personal life is my own and not any of yours. Please keep it out of this. I thought I had actually brought this up publicly before, but it turns out I think that discussion happened in the League Staff sub-board and I no longer have access to it. In any case, now you all know, please don't make assumptions about my personal life; I take it... personally (ba dum tss).

So this isn't the first time people have said this. I've said it before, others have as well during the numerous negative threads on F.DS you've been involved in. Perhaps you're wondering why this comes up so often. It really has nothing to do with any of us wanting to make the debate personal, or taking shots at you, or anything like that.

Frankly, what's happening when people say this is that people are observing you having a disproportionately negative reaction to words, posts, or events in F.DS, and that you're stirring shit an order of magnitude more than the situation calls for. I mean, this particular case we can't (or at least initially couldn't) judge if you were making a mountain out of a molehill, but in other cases you've taken comments people have considered perfectly innocuous and read a degree of hostility in them no one else could, so I have to infer that it's happening here to some extent.

Anyway, when people see this strong, emotional response to events and perceived hardship blow up out of nowhere, they're asking about your personal life because frankly they don't understand how you could be so hotheaded and rushing to judgement based on the facts of the scenario alone. They are suspecting that you are stressed in other manners of your life, and that said stress is spilling over into your Dominion Strategy posts and interactions with others. The reason they are suspecting this is because they are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. They are trying to offer you an explanation for why you're acting out so much, an explanation that lets you save face and lets them continue to regard you highly. And frankly it doesn't always make much sense why you're reacting this way otherwise.

OK, I should respond to this, because I think I can clear up some confusion here. There are two points, actually.

1. People are asking about my personal life because they want to give me the benefit of the doubt for my ideas that they think are bad.

If my ideas are bad, then they are bad. I'm presenting ideas here that I'm trying to back up, namely that the League moderators have acted inappropriately and should be removed. If those ideas aren't good enough (like people saying they need to see PMs or else my ideas don't hold water -- these are valid concerns and don't require looking into my personal life to express) then tell me why. You can attack my ideas if you think they are bad and I'll either back them up or revise them to be better or whatever. I am not afraid to be critical of my own ideas (just watch my streams, man, I give myself a hard time about my poor plays all the time, it's a great way to get better at Dominion) but I seldom post things on the forum without thinking them through for a bit. I've started typing a lot of posts that never saw the light because I thought them through and it didn't make complete sense to me.

By "giving me the benefit of the doubt" in this way, you're bringing the focus to me personally and off of my ideas. Let my ideas stand or fall on their merits; I don't want people to change League moderation because they feel bad for me, that's ridiculous. It's this reason that I don't see any benefit in bringing me-personally into the discussion and I just find it distracting. In the wrong context, it can be worse than distracting, it can come across as patronizing (that didn't happen this time, but it has happened before).

And also it makes me uncomfortable, There are parts of my life that I'm willing to share with the internet and other parts of my life that I'm not. I would not like to feel any obligation to share parts of my life that I'm not comfortable sharing, and I don't want my lack of willingness to share this information to reflect on the ideas I'm bringing forth.

2. If you think my responses are too emotional, I'd like to know where that comes from. I have made a conscious effort to use language in this thread that is as neutral and un-emotional as possible (to the point where I was criticized by someone for sounding like a teacher or something). If you think I'm making too big of a deal out of this, well, I guess I think you're not making a big enough deal out of it? I dunno. I realize some people in my position would just lay down quietly and let the league mods just go along and do whatever they want, but I'm not willing to do that. I want the community to know the decision they made and the reasons they made it, and I am of the opinion that given that knowledge, the community will agree with me that the moderators should be replaced. If that doesn't happen, it won't be because I didn't try, and it won't be because people weren't informed as much as they could be, so I'll be OK with it. (I mean, I'll "be OK with it" in the sense that I won't post about it anymore. I think that would be a terrible decision and I would want nothing to do with the League or its moderators anymore but that's my own problem)

People seem to forget that this has happened before with the whole serious tag discussion and once I saw that the community didn't want what I wanted, I stopped pushing for it. Does that mean we shouldn't have had that discussion? Of course not! We even got the wonderful "ignore user" feature out of that whole thing!

You had not told me of the date or time of that champion match until like a day or two before it was happening -- I was not included in the discussion for when that match would take place which had happened previously

Point of clarification: Was this not posted in the forum for everyone to see several days in advance, like it always is?

The two matches in question:

F.DS Championship Final
S11 Champion Match

[funkdoc]

thank you adam.  now that i better understand what your goals are, i guarantee you'll have to post PMs if you want to get anywhere.  what we have thus far isn't even remotely close to making me feel like the mods should be removed, and i'm someone who normally doesn't trust people in power and is always suspicious of them.

put it to you this way: i looked up the issue that made WW leave the league and felt that was easily worse than the stuff you've posted here to this point.  and (to my understanding) that was simply a case of moderators expecting behavior that they didn't specify in the rules at the time.  that's not an awfully high bar to clear in terms of shadiness, the ball's in your court!

[assemble_me]

Let me just make this clear: I really hate all those mudslinging threads. It makes me really, really sad. I took efforts not to take sides here just because of the respect I have/had for you. How am I supposed not to take it personally if you talk about "the mods". If it makes anyone happy I gladly set my moderation spot for disposal (provided anyone else likes filling numbers into google docs), I'll probably have to leave it by the end of spring anyways for some time and I don't feel glorified or anything by doing what I do.

[amoffett11]

I'm new here, this will be my first season in the league, and I've never been on these forums at all until last week.  So on the one hand "Get out of here new guy, you don't know what you're talking about".  But possibly, on the other hand, I'm new and don't know anyone, and I have no dog in the fight.  "Adam Who?  He's done important things for the community?  Who cares?  Stef?  Who's that, is he supposed to be a big deal?  Who knows?".  I exaggerate a bit, but I have read through this thread (why is some new guy bothering to read this whole thing? - it's fascinating, that's why), and have been forming my opinions as I go, not reading anything through a lens of already existing opinions or biases. 

I would usually advise against posting PM's, unless both parties agree to it.  It seems like all the moderators have given a "go-ahead, post my PM's" (I could be wrong, I don't know who they all are); someone mentioned this already, but it seems to me that if the PM's were as bad as Adam says, we would have seen them by now.  We haven't seen them yet and probably never will at this rate. 

It's mentioned by Adam that he's been "shut out" of participation.  I'm assuming if he wanted to play in the league, he could.  It doesn't seem like that's important to him though, just the commentating.  Stef said that despite everything he still put Adam's name forward for the S12 championship, which I guess could be taken as he-said he-said thing if DXV hadn't already put out there that your name was among the options, and he picked someone else.  Is that the real problem here?  That someone else was picked (and someone that I've gathered Adam is not a fan of) and he missed this cool chance?  Adam mentioned he felt like he deserved it; that seemed strange to me but what do I know, maybe commentating Dominion matches is a high honour and not a service to the community.  Maybe that's what being forgetten here; the commentator is serving the community, not the other way around.  It seems clear that that was once his goal, but not right now. 

And the poll?  That doesn't give you any legs to stand on.  You created a poll that said "hey everyone, who should commentate?  cough cough I've commentated in the past cough".  Obviously you're going to get a high number of votes just from people who just like voting, and yours is the obvious answer.  You got the most votes, but did not get a majority, only 20ish% IIRC.  Given the way the poll was set up (mostly that it was set up by you yourself, and not by a third party), I'm actually surprised you didn't get more.  Sure you got more than any one person, but you could just as easily look at the pool and say "80% of people voted against him and want someone else.  They don't know who, just someone else".  What would the poll look like if it was run again today?  The support here for your commentating still seems strong, but then it seems you've burned some bridges as well.  Not knowing anything about who's best at this sort of thing, if I voted today I would not vote for you, based on nothing but what I've been reading here (I do plan to watch a few of the past championship matches to improve my own game, maybe I'll change my mind). 

You mentioned that you have no tools to fix the conflict?  That is incorrect.  You could apologize and move on.  Give it some time, and you'd probably be welcomed back in.  I find most times you actually apologize (and I'm not talking about an I'm sorry, but, I'm talking about an I'm sorry.), you receive one in return.  Are you interested in taking this road?  Probably not.  It's hard.  If not for this thread it probably would've been much easier.  I could be wrong, it could be impossible now.  Maybe you'd apologize and they'd still never let you back in.  Wouldn't that prove you right about their attitude though? 

[Roadrunner7671]

About the poll, each person had five votes. So he got 1/5 of the votes, which meant like everyone voted for him, then they used their other 4 votes on other people they'd like to see.

[XerxesPraelor]

So I think Adam doesn't care about not commenting that much, but rather the fact that the opinions individual members of the league have can push him out of commenting.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that most people like Adam commenting, but some people really don't, and the question is what do we do with those competing interests?

[Roadrunner7671]

So I think Adam doesn't care about not commenting that much, but rather the fact that the opinions individual members of the league have can push him out of commenting.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that most people like Adam commenting, but some people really don't, and the question is what do we do with those competing interests?

The obvious solution is to have anyone who wants to commentate the match.

[drsteelhammer]

Since everyone likes to see our personal messages that lead to this post, I'll post the first PM that started this whole thing off. I encourage Adam to post his reply here aswell so everyone can form their own opinion.

Little bit of context: Adam has usually been part of the playtesting process and I wanted to give him a chance to make a choice whether he wants to do that regardless of who commentates the Champion Match. (this is why this has been adressed so early)

Hey,

some Championship match contenders of this season expressed their lack of willingness to cooperate with you on stream. The moderators discussed this and after considering their points decided that  somebody else should cast the championship match until the conflict(s) bewtween the two parties are resolved. This will most likely be at least this season.

I'm telling you this now because we started playtesting last week and you are obviously still welcome to join us for that, but I don't know how much you like playtesting just for the sake of it, that's why I wanted to tell you before. Your help would be still appreciated.

-Julian

[LastFootnote]

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that most people like Adam commenting, but some people really don't, and the question is what do we do with those competing interests?

I don't think anybody has said anything about not wanting Adam to commentate. I think there is a group of people that would rather not deal with him in any capacity.

EDIT: I found a pertinent post!

Even if I'm OK being a jerk and offending all of these people, I can't be surprised when people I've offended don't want much to do with me.

Truer words have ne'er been written.

[Voltaire]

If we're going down the posting-PMs-road, I would just like to remind everyone as they read them that hindsight is always 20/20, and as long as people appear to have been operating in good faith at the time, have a willingness to change their mind/adapt/admit mistakes, there's no need to tear apart any individual communication for not being flawlessly presented.

[AdamH]

It's mentioned by Adam that he's been "shut out" of participation.  I'm assuming if he wanted to play in the league, he could.  It doesn't seem like that's important to him though, just the commentating.  Stef said that despite everything he still put Adam's name forward for the S12 championship, which I guess could be taken as he-said he-said thing if DXV hadn't already put out there that your name was among the options, and he picked someone else.  Is that the real problem here?  That someone else was picked (and someone that I've gathered Adam is not a fan of) and he missed this cool chance?  Adam mentioned he felt like he deserved it; that seemed strange to me but what do I know, maybe commentating Dominion matches is a high honour and not a service to the community.  Maybe that's what being forgetten here; the commentator is serving the community, not the other way around.  It seems clear that that was once his goal, but not right now. 

So I actually agree with what you're saying, but I feel like you're quoting me out of context. Let me provide the context (where the next sentence I write goes along with you're saying).

I'm not terribly concerned with the fact that I couldn't commentate this one champion match. I mean, yes my feelings are excessively hurt because there are few things I would have liked more in this world than to commentate with DXV, and I feel like I deserve it. But the core of my problem is not the result, but how it was handled -- namely that I've been completely shut out of the process the way I was.

When I said that, I was attempting to put my own personal feelings aside, but it's being interpreted as me using that as an argument to support my position. It doesn't support my position, and it really doesn't carry any weight.

And the poll?  That doesn't give you any legs to stand on.

Again, I mostly agree with you here -- some people have clarified the mechanics of the poll for you, but the only thing I'm trying to say with the poll and its results is that the community doesn't seem to want me excluded from broadcasting/commentating big matches like the League champion matches. I don't really think you can make a stronger statement than that -- you certainly can't say something like "Adam and WW should cast EVERY MATCH EVAR!!!111" -- in fact I feel like a stronger conclusion would be that the people who got 5-15 votes who have never cast anything before should get their fair shot. I'd love to share what I've learned with them and give them opportunities to practice with whoever they'd feel comfortable with. Maybe I can still make some progress towards that but right now I'm looking at a completely closed door and being told someone has a key, I have to apologize to that person (for something that isn't clear to me yet but isn't seemingly something I feel like I have to apologize for at this very moment) to get the key. Oh yeah and that person/those people don't want their identities revealed to me or anyone ever.

Yes, all this amounts to is "some reasons why Adam's involvement in this is a good thing, even/especially if he's not the one casting." Right now I haven't seen some reason to the contrary to justify completely shutting me out like they have that holds any water, though. The fact that some mystery people out there don't like me and are using the "taking my ball and going home" strats doesn't seem very compelling to me. The fact that the league moderators are supporting it and not telling me why makes me question their judgment.

As for the PMs, I'll probably post them all at some point, enough people seem to want to see them. It's going to take me a while to find all of them and add timestamps and such, and I have a busy rest-of-the-day. There's a thread in the Dominion League Staff sub-board that I don't have access to anymore that can provide a bit of context that some may find relevant. I would also like to get a hold of that thread and post it with the PMs if that's possible, but I have no idea how to do that without the cooperation of the League mods, who I don't trust at this point not to alter it.

I'd also like to see the mods' responses to my questions in this thread before dumping the PMs, I'm foolish enough to think I might get one and posting the PMs will result in them saying "there, look at that" and proceeding to ignore me. I imagine I'll get over that one soon.

[ashersky]

If we're going down the posting-PMs-road, I would just like to remind everyone as they read them that hindsight is always 20/20, and as long as people appear to have been operating in good faith at the time, have a willingness to change their mind/adapt/admit mistakes, there's no need to tear apart any individual communication for not being flawlessly presented.

Except grammar and spelling, of course.  We're still f.ds.

[Awaclus]

As for the PMs, I'll probably post them all at some point, enough people seem to want to see them. It's going to take me a while to find all of them and add timestamps and such, and I have a busy rest-of-the-day. There's a thread in the Dominion League Staff sub-board that I don't have access to anymore that can provide a bit of context that some may find relevant. I would also like to get a hold of that thread and post it with the PMs if that's possible, but I have no idea how to do that without the cooperation of the League mods, who I don't trust at this point not to alter it.

You don't have to add timestamps manually, you can just use the quote button.

[werothegreat]

I've never heard AdamH commentate.  I think it'd be fun to commentate, and would be interested if anyone is interested in me doing so (after all of this... whatevers).

[Dingan]

Me while reading this thread:

[Watno]

EDIT: I found a pertinent post!

Even if I'm OK being a jerk and offending all of these people, I can't be surprised when people I've offended don't want much to do with me.

Truer words have ne'er been written.

Quoting this because people will probably miss it because it was edited in way after later posts happened.

[enfynet]

Me while reading this thread:

You're kinda cute. Want to commentate a dominion match together?

[Accatitippi]

If we're going down the posting-PMs-road, I would just like to remind everyone as they read them that hindsight is always 20/20, and as long as people appear to have been operating in good faith at the time, have a willingness to change their mind/adapt/admit mistakes, there's no need to tear apart any individual communication for not being flawlessly presented.

Except grammar and spelling, of course.  We're still f.ds.

And strategy advice, of course.
Yet I doubt they were discussing something like the viability of King's Court. They wouldn't be so calm and friendly.

[theory]

When I moved this thread I thought to myself I should probably just close the thread.  I was right.

This sort of stuff is largely outside my jurisdiction since I can't make people like each other or not respond in particular ways or whatever.  But it's such a childish and stupid thing.  It doesn't need to keep happening over and over again.  Like a series of bad high school reunions these threads end up turning into rehashing the previous thread.