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[Dingan]

(Wasn't sure where else to post this)

Somebody should make an article about cards that are both trash-for-benefit and gainers.  So like Procession, Develop, Graverobber, etc.  Graverobber is probably my least-understood card, as it involves moving cards to and from the trash -- a mechanic which is very hard to master.  Add in things like Fortress, Rogue, or KC to the mix and I'm at a complete loss.

EDIT: Example game: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14722.0

[LastFootnote]

Somebody should make an article about cards that are both trash-for-benefit and gainers.

You mean remodels?

I think it would be tough to make one useful article about all of them, since the types of cards they want to/can trash vary so much. I guess one big thing is: sometimes it's good to remodel another Action you can't also play, especially if you can buy a copy of it back before you shuffle.

[Dingan]

Somebody should make an article about cards that are both trash-for-benefit and gainers.

You mean remodels?

Oh is that what they're called?  But I actually think Remodel, Expand, and Upgrade are far more simple than the other ones I mentioned.  I'm not sure why; maybe the top-decking, maybe Procession's Thrown Roomness.  Regardless, I almost always manage to screw these cards up somehow.

[AdamH]

These cards are all very complex; if I tried to write one article about the similarities of just Procession, Develop, and Graverobber; that article would be pretty bad. Procession and Develop deserve an article on just them, and perhaps Graverobber does as well.

The nice thing for you, at least, is that Graverobber is probably the easiest to understand out of all of these. If you can, just play a lot of games with Graverobber and no +Buy (and not Rebuild) and go for Graverobbers -- you'll get a pretty good feel of just how powerful it is at its best (it's not super-ultra-broken as payload, in which case it's a conditional gainer).

Without getting into too much detail (because that's hard), I'll say this much about Procession and Develop: do a check at the start of the game to see how "broken" they can be -- you want spammable (non-terminal) cards at appropriate price points. These cards do best when there's a lot of draw because gain-and-play gets really ridiculous with these guys -- you'll want to be thinking many more steps ahead than normal to make sure you don't waste any draw; think very carefully before playing every single Action card in your hand, especially cantrips, and especially when you have two (or three when you don't have cantrips in hand) or more Actions remaining in the case of Develop so you can do your mid-turn tricks...

Develop is really nice with cards that care about the top two cards of your deck (namely Herald and Wishing Well), and is really great when you can play it mid-turn because of the top-decking, so you'll want a deck rich with villages so you can afford to play mid-turn terminals that don't immediately draw you cards.

Procession starts to get better than "Throne Room with a drawback" when you can play the thing you gained on the same turn. I kind of already said that already. In this case, you'll be planning multiple turns ahead.

There you go. I will not be writing articles about these cards because I feel like I don't understand them enough. I feel like nobody in the world understands these cards to write an awesome article. Eh.

[Dingan]

These cards are all very complex; if I tried to write one article about the similarities of just Procession, Develop, and Graverobber; that article would be pretty bad. Procession and Develop deserve an article on just them, and perhaps Graverobber does as well.

The nice thing for you, at least, is that Graverobber is probably the easiest to understand out of all of these. If you can, just play a lot of games with Graverobber and no +Buy (and not Rebuild) and go for Graverobbers -- you'll get a pretty good feel of just how powerful it is at its best (it's not super-ultra-broken as payload, in which case it's a conditional gainer).

Without getting into too much detail (because that's hard), I'll say this much about Procession and Develop: do a check at the start of the game to see how "broken" they can be -- you want spammable (non-terminal) cards at appropriate price points. These cards do best when there's a lot of draw because gain-and-play gets really ridiculous with these guys -- you'll want to be thinking many more steps ahead than normal to make sure you don't waste any draw; think very carefully before playing every single Action card in your hand, especially cantrips, and especially when you have two (or three when you don't have cantrips in hand) or more Actions remaining in the case of Develop so you can do your mid-turn tricks...

Develop is really nice with cards that care about the top two cards of your deck (namely Herald and Wishing Well), and is really great when you can play it mid-turn because of the top-decking, so you'll want a deck rich with villages so you can afford to play mid-turn terminals that don't immediately draw you cards.

Procession starts to get better than "Throne Room with a drawback" when you can play the thing you gained on the same turn. I kind of already said that already. In this case, you'll be planning multiple turns ahead.

There you go. I will not be writing articles about these cards because I feel like I don't understand them enough. I feel like nobody in the world understands these cards to write an awesome article. Eh.

Thanks, this is good stuff.  Who knows, maybe I'll be worthy enough to write one someday...

A few other points about them off the top of my head:

• Graverobber, Develop, and Procession (depending on what you Process) all decrease your handsize by at least 1 card, usually 2
• Throning a Graverobber can sometimes be like "Place an Action card costing up to $5 on top of your deck. If you do, gain a Province."
• When playing with things that remove cards from the trash, I kind of think of the trash as a Native Village mat shared amongst all players

[Dingan]

I call these things "pseudo-plus-buys".  They're technically not "gainers" nor "plus-buyers".

• City.  It's sometimes, but rarely, +buy.
• Possession.  I would not call this a Workshop variant, although some people have.  I would say it's in a class of its own.
• Outpost.  It can certainly act as a gainer, although nowhere in its text does it mention the word "gain".

Any more?  Is there a different term for these kind of things?

[wachsmuth]

I call these things "pseudo-plus-buys".  They're technically not "gainers" nor "plus-buyers".

• City.  It's sometimes, but rarely, +buy.
• Possession.  I would not call this a Workshop variant, although some people have.  I would say it's in a class of its own.
• Outpost.  It can certainly act as a gainer, although nowhere in its text does it mention the word "gain".

Any more?  Is there a different term for these kind of things?

How about some of the 'gaining' events? Pilgrimage, Seaway, Mission, Ball? Maybe Black Market?

[Beyond Awesome]

I call these things "pseudo-plus-buys".  They're technically not "gainers" nor "plus-buyers".

• City.  It's sometimes, but rarely, +buy.
• Possession.  I would not call this a Workshop variant, although some people have.  I would say it's in a class of its own.
• Outpost.  It can certainly act as a gainer, although nowhere in its text does it mention the word "gain".

Any more?  Is there a different term for these kind of things?

How about some of the 'gaining' events? Pilgrimage, Seaway, Mission, Ball? Maybe Black Market?

Pilgrimage is definitely a gainer. Sea Way gives your deck lots of +Buy. Okay, Mission is its own thing. Ball is sort of like stonemason without buying the stonemason, so it seems to be in a grey area. Black Market perhaps counts.

[Awaclus]

Let's talk about brackets!

[Roadrunner7671]

Let's talk about brackets!

[spiralstaircase]

Let's talk about brackets!

OK.  My favourite bracket is the chevron, «».  How about yours?

[ThetaSigma12]

Let's talk about brackets!

OK.  My favourite bracket is the chevron, «».  How about yours?

I'm a sucker for the original. I always use them over parentheses when I can. [Which is a lot]

[faust]

Let's talk about brackets!

Why has RR not yet made a Scout combo bracket?

[Roadrunner7671]

Let's talk about brackets!

Why has RR not yet made a Scout combo bracket?

I'm waiting for the bracket madness to die down.

(I'm also waiting for computer access.)

[AdrianHealey]

A best combo with scout bracket!

[Roadrunner7671]

A best combo with scout bracket!

Let's talk about brackets!

Why has RR not yet made a Scout combo bracket?

I'm waiting for the bracket madness to die down.

(I'm also waiting for computer access.)

[Seprix]

Thief will be discussed in the 'Let's Discuss Dominion Cards' series shortly.

[Awaclus]

Thief will be discussed in the 'Let's Discuss Dominion Cards' series shortly.

So we shouldn't discuss it here? Wow, what a great way to generate discussion the 'Let's Discuss Dominion Cards' series is!

[Seprix]

Thief will be discussed in the 'Let's Discuss Dominion Cards' series shortly.

So we shouldn't discuss it here? Wow, what a great way to generate discussion the 'Let's Discuss Dominion Cards' series is!

You cannot discuss it here. Otherwise, you will be contacted by my legal team.

[Dingan]

(Yet again, wasn't sure where else to post this, and I feel this thread is kind of a catch-all for all random/miscellaneous thoughts.)

Question on proper etiquette here...

I recently played a game with Possession where my opponent had mentioned in the chat that he doesn't play with Possession, and wanted to ban it.  I didn't actually see the message until much later (I don't usually check the chat window at all during the game until after the game ends).  I proceeded to play the board as normal, buying Potion and eventually Possession.  In which case my opponent got very sour in the chat (which, again, I still didn't actually notice until later).  He then resigned, at which point I saw the chat window had some messages in it, and realized the gravity of the situation.

So my question is: What is the proper etiquette in such a situation?  I realize banning cards isn't anywhere in the realm of official Dominion rules/play, especially online.  But I do want to be sensitive to people that are passionate about it.  I guess at the very least, I should have noticed his messages in the chat window earlier and commented at the beginning of the game that I don't prefer to ban any cards.  But then again, there's no guarantee that all players read all chat messages.  So I'm not sure.

[Awaclus]

(Yet again, wasn't sure where else to post this, and I feel this thread is kind of a catch-all for all random/miscellaneous thoughts.)

Question on proper etiquette here...

I recently played a game with Possession where my opponent had mentioned in the chat that he doesn't play with Possession, and wanted to ban it.  I didn't actually see the message until much later (I don't usually check the chat window at all during the game until after the game ends).  I proceeded to play the board as normal, buying Potion and eventually Possession.  In which case my opponent got very sour in the chat (which, again, I still didn't actually notice until later).  He then resigned, at which point I saw the chat window had some messages in it, and realized the gravity of the situation.

So my question is: What is the proper etiquette in such a situation?  I realize banning cards isn't anywhere in the realm of official Dominion rules/play, especially online.  But I do want to be sensitive to people that are passionate about it.  I guess at the very least, I should have noticed his messages in the chat window earlier and commented at the beginning of the game that I don't prefer to ban any cards.  But then again, there's no guarantee that all players read all chat messages.  So I'm not sure.

Well, I would tell him something like "you don't have to play with Possession if you don't want to, but don't mind if I do".

The only time I can remember when my opponent has proposed to ban anything from a kingdom, it was something completely crazy (I think it was Pirate Ship but it might have been something else, either way it was way worse than ignorable in that kingdom), so I promised him that I certainly wouldn't buy it in that game, but that I would be fine with him buying it if he wanted to.

[Beyond Awesome]

I would say add it is since we don't have a ban system in the current implementation, no one is obligated to not buy a card just to make someone else happy. If you don't want to see that card then don't play full random. I know that's harsh, but you shouldn't have to bend over backwards for someone else. Hopefully, the next implementation offers a banning function. I think Donald X. suggested allowing players to ban 3 cards total from all the cards they own.

[AdrianHealey]

I almost always immediately leave when Rebuid is in the kingdom. I think that's the best way to go about if there are cards you don't want.

[Limetime]

Lets talk about Legionary.
How good is it in bm?
Does this make it worth going for a weak draw engine?
How many moats do you want in a Legionary game?

[Seprix]

Lets talk about Legionary.
How good is it in bm?
Does this make it worth going for a weak draw engine?
How many moats do you want in a Legionary game?

Interesting topic. Legionary does not cycle, but it gives a whopping $3, and landing it with Gold is just so brutal an attack. I think Legionary BM is absolutely conceivable, and strictly better than Giant BM. You have something to buy when you hit $5, and it's so much better than Silver.

if Moat is on the board with Legionary... Hmmm... I don't think Moat wins, especially if Moat doesn't attack back, and there's the terminal collision aspect if Moat does pick up Legionary. I don't know, I'd have to play about 10 games before having an idea.

Legionary is a brutal attack if you can get it off every turn. It WRECKS BM, so if it is possible with a weak draw engine that can thin even a little, it is absolutely worth going for, compared to the alternative BM.