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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Results!)  (Read 10289 times)

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enfynet

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2016, 03:33:00 pm »
0

I gotta be honest. I'm not sure what you intend by saying "use the full range from 0-10" without dropping by 5/8th (0.625) between each rating. [10 ratings / 16 divisions]

Unless we do something on the 10/x scale, giving our favorite card a 10 and everything else a 5 or below.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting Change!)
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2016, 10:07:57 pm »
+1

New voting rules!

We will select a winner over two rounds. The first round will be approval voting. Vote for as many cards as you like - which cards do you think are good enough to potentially win? The top 5 (plus ties) will advance to round 2, which will be range voting (0-10) as with the runoffs.

Each round will last 7 days.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2016, 10:16:55 pm »
0

I gotta be honest. I'm not sure what you intend by saying "use the full range from 0-10" without dropping by 5/8th (0.625) between each rating. [10 ratings / 16 divisions]

Unless we do something on the 10/x scale, giving our favorite card a 10 and everything else a 5 or below.

By use the full range, I simply mean have at least one card as a 0 and at least one card as a 10. In the first runoff, some votes were on a limited range (3-8, say).

Obviously, we have 17 cards and only 11 (integer) voting possibilities, so you will have some ties. And I'm not suggesting you are required (or even encouraged) to give every rating to at least one card. What tends to be happening though is that people are using an extreme form of approval voting (only 0s and 10s), and approval voting is not as expressive as range voting.

Ideally, everyone will give their honest scores for the cards on a scale of 0 to 10 where 0 is their least favorite card and 10 is their favorite. But it's not particularly a problem if people vote strategically (giving lower-than-honest scores to cards that aren't among their favorites but that they perceive as "threats" to win) - it's just that giving only extreme ratings is not actually strategic (you aren't reflecting your true preferences at all among the cards you are rating the same, so it is more likely that you will have no impact on the outcome at all).
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Accatitippi

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2016, 08:17:50 am »
0

Just a couple of scattered thoughts (I'm only going to write stuff that I think hasn't been written before):
I like the concept of Enchanted Broom, but I think it's a bad buy as written, since in addition to the mandatory lategame lookout pain you're also going to play the rest of the game with 4 cards in hand. If it gave +1 Card then I think it would be much more interesting, as you'd get "free" thinning economy-wise at the cost of having to plan for a tiptoed late game.

Circus is really cool, I'm not sure that the whole journey token system is worth it (letting optionally swap a token every play would make it much less headache inducing - and maybe break it). As with Scholar, I'm afraid some conformations would simply be much more profitable than others. (4$ Labs, turning into 6$ almost-Lost Cities...)

Paladin looks cool, but I'm afraid it will be even more snowballing than Tournament:
Each Tournament activation gives you only one powerful card, to be used only once per turn. (and this is sort of balanced by Tournament losing effectiveness in the late game) On the other hand, the first Paladin activation turns all your Paladins into Labs, making it much easier to get a second activation and so on. The fact that they do not discard the Province makes it even easier to suddently explode.
Once you've got your Paladins rolling, you win. (+3 Cards, +1 Action, +1 coin, +1 buy, or +1 Card, +1 Action, +3 Coins, +1 Buy). Yes, Paladin doesn't really help you get the Province, but that makes it all the more swingy in my opinion.

I like Research Assistant, it's a sort of after-the-fact sifter, might be too good for 4 but I'd try it for sure.

Edited for readability.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:19:03 am by Accatitippi »
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2016, 01:15:57 pm »
0

I like the concept of Enchanted Broom, but I think it's a bad buy as written, since in addition to the mandatory lategame lookout pain you're also going to play the rest of the game with 4 cards in hand. If it gave +1 Card then I think it would be much more interesting, as you'd get "free" thinning economy-wise at the cost of having to plan for a tiptoed late game.
The problem of a permanent forced trasher is that it is either too good or too bad. With one extra card it is clearly too good, i.e. a forced buy, whereas the current version is at least painful enough during the middle- and endgame that you think twice about buying it. It is good in Goon or self-junking games in general, good in quick games, bad in long games and even worse in long games without extra buys (buying some junk such that the perma-trasher doesn't eliminate your good cards could be an actual option in non-BM games where you probably do not mind it too much if some Silvers are trashed).

I think that the only wortwhile Hireling variants are those with vanilla boni and among those a permanent extra coin is too similar to Treasury so only action and buy remain. Ramos' Haunted Castle was a decent implementation (at a price of 5$, 6 is obviously too expensive) of that.

Back to Enchanted Broom, I just noticed that you topdeck it when you gain it such that you can play it on turn 2/3 instead of 3/4/5. I do not think that this is necessary.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 01:19:39 pm by tristan »
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enfynet

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2016, 06:46:18 pm »
+1

So I finally managed to sit down and put a couple thoughts out for each card. Hopefully the discussion isn't completely dead yet.
______________________

Quote
Blueprint
Types: Action - Reserve
Cost: $4
You may move your Trashing token to an Action Supply pile (when you buy a card from that pile, you may trash a card from your hand.)
Put this on your Tavern mat.

When you trash a card, you may call this, to gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

This gives us another use for the Trash token, when the Event is not available. But that Reserve function can do some pretty crazy things with Trashers, Remodelers, One-Shots, and Dark Ages. Any other good uses for an on-trash gainer?

Quote
Boathand
Types: Action - Reserve
Cost: $3
+2 Actions
Put this card on your tavern mat.

Directly after resolving an action, if it's still in play, you may call this to draw up to 5 cards in hand.

So, the "still in play" prevents stacking these, right? I like the draw-to-5 but I'm not sure if it needs to be a Reserve function.

Quote
Borough
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck; discard it or put it back. You may take your -1 Card token. If you do, +1 Action.

Cheap Village, with a minor sifting effect. This could be useful, or could be very weak.

Quote
Circus
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Card, +1 Action
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, swap one of your tokens on the Circus pile.

At the start of the game, each player puts his -$2 and +1 Buy tokens on this pile.

Clarification: swapping means to remove one of your tokens from the pile and replace it with a different one. Valid tokens are those that go on the Action Supply piles, i.e. the vanilla bonus tokens, the trashing token and the -$2 token.

So, the Token swap is not optional, right? If you have Tokens on other piles, those would all be affected as well. I would probably leave the -$2 Token on there to buy several of these and turn them into mini-Lab Villages.

Quote
Elven Palace
Type: Action - Duration
Cost: $5
For the rest of the game, at the end of your buy phase, you may trash a card from your hand.
(This card stays in play.)

I'm pretty sure the actual trigger would be the "start of Clean-up" but that's just a detail. This becomes quite strong against junking attacks, especially in multiples.

Quote
Enchanted Broom
Types: Action - Duration
Cost: $2
At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game: Trash a card from your hand.

When you gain this, put it on top of your deck.

This is trouble. You will play the rest of the game with only 4-card hands? Also, no one would want more than 1 of these.

Quote
Engineer
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+Buy
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up); then if it's face up, you may move your Trashing token and your -$2 token to an Action Supply pile.

Clarification: The Trashing token and the -$2 token must be moved to the same Action Supply pile.

I like the synergy between the +Buy, $-2 token, and Trash token. I think it may be a bit cheap compared to Ferry and Plan though.

Quote
Foundry
Types: Action - Reserve
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4. Put this on your Tavern mat.

When you gain a card, you may call this, to put the gained card either into your hand or on top of your deck.

A Workshop variant, but with the Reserve function this seems to be on the slow side. Watchtower seems more useful than this Reserve function.

Quote
Harlequin
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $5
Each other player flips their [Journey] token face up
Flip your [Journey] token over (It starts face up)
If it's face up
+5$ and each other player discards down to 3 cards in his hand

I think this one would be fine without attacking the other players' Journey token(s).

Quote
Innkeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card, +1 Action.
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up).  If it is face up, +1 Card, +1 Action.

I would buy so many of these that I would start hating the Journey Token. I think there may be a reason the Journey Token cards are terminal.

Quote
Junk Collector
Types: Action - Duration
Cost: $5
Now and at the start of your next turn:
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Curse, Ruins, Shelter and Victory cards into your hand. Put one of the other cards on top of your deck and discard the rest.
For each discarded Action card: +1 Action
For each discarded Treasure card: + $1

Worth 1 VP per 5 cards divided by the number of players in the trash (rounded down).

Clarification: If you reveal 3 Curses, Ruins, Shelters and Victory cards you cannot topdeck or discard any card. If you reveal 2 dead/bad cards you topdeck one card and discard none. If there are e.g. 29 cards in the trash in a 3P game you divide 29 by 5 and 3 and round it down which yields 1.

Remove a few steps, and the VP and this card could be a useful Iron-Scout. As it is, though, the complexity does not seem to be worth the trouble. Suggested change: Remove VP, Remove Topdeck, Remove long list of types; Reveal top 3, discard Action/Treasure, put the rest in your hand. Get bonus for discards.

Quote
Paladin
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Choose two: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1. (Choices may be the same)
You may reveal a province from your hand. If you do, place your +card, +action, +coin, or +buy token on the Paladin supply pile.

When you gain a curse or ruins, you may reveal this. If you do, trash the gained card.

There is a whole lot going on here. Get a couple of these and an early Province and you could end up with a Cavalry of +2 Cards +$2 +1 Action +1 Buy running through your deck. The Watchtower reaction seems totally unnecessary.

Quote
Recruit
Types: Action - Reserve
Cost: $5
Put this on your tavern mat.

At the start of your turn, you may call this, to turn your journey token over (it starts face up); and if it's face up, for the rest of the turn, whenever you play an action, you first get +1 card.

You probably want at least 4 of these, to ensure you keep your Journey Token face up as much as possible.

Quote
Research Assistant
Type: Action - Reserve
Cost: $4
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the beginning of your Buy phase, you may call this. If you do, discard two cards.

Cheap Lab, with a little opportunity cost to pull it off the Tavern Mat. I'm not sure how I'd feel if I ended up with 3 of these waiting to be called, though.

Quote
Scholar
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

When you gain this, if you have no token of yours on the Scholar pile, move your +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, or +$1 token to the Scholar pile. (when you play a Scholar you first get that bonus)

It seems like Lab+$1 is the best use for this card. But I like the versatility in cases where you may not have a Village or +Buy around.

Quote
Sunken City
Types: Action Duration
Cost: $2
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn: Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an action card, play it. Otherwise, discard it.

Duration Herald? I'm not really sure how I feel about this one. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Quote
Tinkerer
Types: Action - Reserve
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to $4.
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your Buy phase, you may call this, to trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card.

We can use this to gain 2 cards in one turn. Workshop + Remodel on one card. I like the simplicity, but don't know if the two parts should be so similar.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2016, 08:25:30 pm »
0

Quote
Innkeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card, +1 Action.
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up).  If it is face up, +1 Card, +1 Action.

I would buy so many of these that I would start hating the Journey Token. I think there may be a reason the Journey Token cards are terminal.

It might help to make it like this:
Quote
Innkeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards.
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up).  If it is face up, +2 Actions.
Although if you can play two in a turn, it's not going to make a lot of difference.

mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2016, 10:39:59 pm »
0

One more day for preliminary voting here!
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2016, 11:19:22 am »
0

Preliminary Results:

Sunken City - 13
Paladin - 9
Research Assistant - 9
Circus - 8
Foundry - 8

Boathand - 7
Innkeeper - 7
Recruit - 7
Elven Palace - 6
Blueprint - 5
Scholar - 5
Enchanted Bloom - 4
Engineer - 4
Tinkerer - 4
Borough - 2
Junk Collector - 1
Harlequin - 0
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Voting!)
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2016, 11:19:58 am »
+1

Quote
Sunken City
Types: Action Duration
Cost: $2
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn: Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an action card, play it. Otherwise, discard it.

Quote
Research Assistant
Type: Action - Reserve
Cost: $4
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the beginning of your Buy phase, you may call this. If you do, discard two cards.

Clarification: The intent is that you call it before playing any treasures.  Thus, if you call Research Assistant, you could be forced to discard treasures that you wanted to play.

Quote
Paladin
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Choose two: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1. (Choices may be the same)
You may reveal a province from your hand. If you do, place your +card, +action, +coin, or +buy token on the Paladin supply pile.

When you gain a curse or ruins, you may reveal this. If you do, trash the gained card.

Quote
Foundry
Types: Action - Reserve
Cost: $4
Gain a card costing up to $4. Put this on your Tavern mat.

When you gain a card, you may call this, to put the gained card either into your hand or on top of your deck.

Quote
Circus
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Card, +1 Action
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up). If it's face up, swap one of your tokens on the Circus pile.

At the start of the game, each player puts his -$2 and +1 Buy tokens on this pile.

Clarification: swapping means to remove one of your tokens from the pile and replace it with a different one. Valid tokens are those that go on the Action Supply piles, i.e. the vanilla bonus tokens, the trashing token and the -$2 token.

Submit your votes to me via this forum's messaging system. To vote, give each card a score from 0 to 10. (It is recommended, but not required, that you give at least one card a 0 and at least one card a 10, to maximize your voting input.) The winner will be the card with the highest sum. Feel free to discuss the cards (but not your scores) in this thread.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 11:42:29 pm by mith »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2016, 12:00:14 pm »
0

Still waiting for clarification: At the beginning of you buy phase means before playing treasures? Or can I do both at the same time, therefore choosing the order?
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enfynet

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2016, 12:12:34 pm »
0

That trigger is confusing because it is undefined.
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LastFootnote

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2016, 12:17:11 pm »
0

Still waiting for clarification: At the beginning of you buy phase means before playing treasures? Or can I do both at the same time, therefore choosing the order?

It's before playing your Treasures. I don't know the author's intent, but that's the way the rules work.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2016, 12:21:42 pm »
0

There's no need to delete the poll. :)
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2016, 01:17:15 pm »
0

The polls take up a lot of vertical space, and distract from finding the finalists. I've saved all the votes to my spreadsheet though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2016, 01:31:13 pm »
+2

The polls take up a lot of vertical space, and distract from finding the finalists. I've saved all the votes to my spreadsheet though.

Start a new thread?  In the future, it will be nice to come back and see what I originally voted for.  It can be a quick way to find old concepts that I previously found interesting, something I appreciate with past polls.  Not to mention, it's good for accountability.
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Fragasnap

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2016, 06:04:12 pm »
+1

In case anyone on the Tabletop Simulator kick is interested, you can use this as the front of the cards:
Code: [Select]
http://i.imgur.com/gKPGnRt.jpgand this as the back:
Code: [Select]
http://i.imgur.com/yzZJDcw.jpg
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enfynet

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2016, 06:28:20 pm »
0

Nice work on those cards. Have you used them yet?
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2016, 11:41:41 pm »
0

Clarification on Research Assistant:

Quote
The intent is that you call it before playing any treasures.  Thus, if you call Research Assistant, you could be forced to discard treasures that you wanted to play.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2016, 04:06:50 pm »
0

Most of these finalists aren't really interesting to me.  I keep going back to this pre-voting comment:

I submitted a card for this. I feel like making an Adventures card for this contest is difficult because the central theme of Adventures to me seems to be about pushing boundaries and changing up what we are used to. There are lots of different mechanics in Adventures, but they tend to really shake things up.

I feel like it might not be enough to just have a card that incorporates the mechanics of Adventures. You'll probably want to have a card that involves strategic considerations outside of what we're used to from other expansions.

I think it's a great point, and I feel like only Paladin and Circus push that boundary to shake things up.  There were some others that didn't make it to the final voting stage, though a bunch of them were dismissed out of hand (like the one that forced a mandatory trash every turn... which maybe is not a practical idea, but it was certainly boundary-pushing).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:07:56 pm by eHalcyon »
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2016, 05:33:41 pm »
0

Last call for votes... I only have 6 at the moment.
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enfynet

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2016, 10:56:50 pm »
0

I voted, even though my card (Blueprint) did not make the finals. :)
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2016, 08:41:19 am »
0

Most of these finalists aren't really interesting to me.  I keep going back to this pre-voting comment:

I submitted a card for this. I feel like making an Adventures card for this contest is difficult because the central theme of Adventures to me seems to be about pushing boundaries and changing up what we are used to. There are lots of different mechanics in Adventures, but they tend to really shake things up.

I feel like it might not be enough to just have a card that incorporates the mechanics of Adventures. You'll probably want to have a card that involves strategic considerations outside of what we're used to from other expansions.

I think it's a great point, and I feel like only Paladin and Circus push that boundary to shake things up.  There were some others that didn't make it to the final voting stage, though a bunch of them were dismissed out of hand (like the one that forced a mandatory trash every turn... which maybe is not a practical idea, but it was certainly boundary-pushing).

Meh. Most of Adventures is about delaying stuff or keeping it for later. Durations are, Reserves are, Travellers are. And all of the tokens are, too. Events are the single Adventures thing that is about something different, and the most groundbreaking, too. They are not part of this contest, though.

Also, i voted.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2016, 12:29:06 pm »
0

Most of these finalists aren't really interesting to me.  I keep going back to this pre-voting comment:

I submitted a card for this. I feel like making an Adventures card for this contest is difficult because the central theme of Adventures to me seems to be about pushing boundaries and changing up what we are used to. There are lots of different mechanics in Adventures, but they tend to really shake things up.

I feel like it might not be enough to just have a card that incorporates the mechanics of Adventures. You'll probably want to have a card that involves strategic considerations outside of what we're used to from other expansions.

I think it's a great point, and I feel like only Paladin and Circus push that boundary to shake things up.  There were some others that didn't make it to the final voting stage, though a bunch of them were dismissed out of hand (like the one that forced a mandatory trash every turn... which maybe is not a practical idea, but it was certainly boundary-pushing).

Meh. Most of Adventures is about delaying stuff or keeping it for later. Durations are, Reserves are, Travellers are. And all of the tokens are, too. Events are the single Adventures thing that is about something different, and the most groundbreaking, too. They are not part of this contest, though.

Also, i voted.

I think that that's too broad a way of thinking about it.  OK sure, Travellers and tokens delay stuff until later, but the way they do it is very different and groundbreaking.  And they are also about cards that change effects as the game goes on.  That kind of change is new to Adventures and worthier of the expansion title than mere delay.

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 12:55:55 pm by eHalcyon »
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 1: Adventures (Finalists!)
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2016, 12:48:34 pm »
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Most of these finalists aren't really interesting to me.  I keep going back to this pre-voting comment:

I submitted a card for this. I feel like making an Adventures card for this contest is difficult because the central theme of Adventures to me seems to be about pushing boundaries and changing up what we are used to. There are lots of different mechanics in Adventures, but they tend to really shake things up.

I feel like it might not be enough to just have a card that incorporates the mechanics of Adventures. You'll probably want to have a card that involves strategic considerations outside of what we're used to from other expansions.

I think it's a great point, and I feel like only Paladin and Circus push that boundary to shake things up.  There were some others that didn't make it to the final voting stage, though a bunch of them were dismissed out of hand (like the one that forced a mandatory trash every turn... which maybe is not a practical idea, but it was certainly boundary-pushing).

Meh. Most of Adventures is about delaying stuff or keeping it for later. Durations are, Reserves are, Travellers are. And all of the tokens are, too. Events are the single Adventures thing that is about something different, and the most groundbreaking, too. They are not part of this contest, though.

Also, i voted.

I think that that's too broad a day of thinking about it.  OK sure, Travellers and tokens delay stuff until later, but the way they do it is very different and groundbreaking.  And they are also about cards that change effects as the game goes on.  That kind of change is new to Adventures and worthier of the expansion title than mere delay.

Yes, i guess i sounded a bit snappy. It's true that altering the effects of existing cards is a noticeable theme, too. I just felt it was inaccurate to say that Adventures' theme was "pushing boundaries". It does, but it's theme isn't that. Dark Ages also pushed boundaries, and it's theme weren't boundaries, either. Dark Ages and Adventures feel very different, because each got its distinctive themes. DA has trash stuff, combos and Ruins. Adventures has delays, Events and altering things.

That said, i think any card using an Adventures mechanic (especially new ones) fits here. It doesn't have to make the supply explode in my face.
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