Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mail-mi]

Welcome to Mafia 66, Donald's Greater Idea Mafia 2!

Setup Information in second post.

Mods: mail-mi, Umbrage

Signups:
1. gkrieg13
2. EgorK
3. chairs
4. QuickSync
5. XerxesPraelor
6. silverspawn
7. Hydrad
8. Joseph2302
9. Axxle
10. faust
11. hockeyselman
12.
13.
...

This game follows the Rules of Mafia, with the following changes:

-All Night actions are due 1 hour before the night deadline.
-If there are more than 10 players alive or less than 6, deadlines will be 7 days. Otherwise, deadlines are 10 days. Nights are 48 hours long.
-If a deadline is hit without a majority of votes, there will be a no lynch.
-Bold, Lime green text is reserved for the mods. Things written in lime green italics are just flavor, and have no impact on the game whatsoever.
-Prods will not be sent automatically.
-You may not /out in thread. Please /out in a PM to the mod.
--If a player wants to /out, they may be replaced by anyone on D1-N1.  On D2-N2, no one from the speccy may replace the player.  After this, a player who /outs will be modkilled.

[mail-mi]

Greater Idea Mafia.

Mechanics:
-Daystart
-At the start of the game, each player will receive a PM with 2 Dominion cards. They will then choose 1 card and discard the other. That card will determine their role.
-After every player has chosen their card, if the mods deem the game to be imbalanced, then the cards will be reshuffled and re-dealt.
-Once a balanced game has been created, everyone will be PM'd the role that corresponds to their card.
-A list of all roles and their corresponding cards will be posted on D1, along with each player's discarded cards.
-The Replicant faction will not be used in this game.
-Some card-role connections are really obvious. Some are more obscure.
-Just because a card is more powerful than another does not mean the role is more powerful. The role with Scout may be more powerful than the role with Mountebank!
-Masons are not guaranteed to be town to each other--they are, however, guaranteed not to be mafia.

Also of note: All cards in the deck EXCEPT FOR THE SAULUS ROLE are being used.

Here is the list of roles and the cards they correspond with:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13g_JHb8dAMRpSN9-ndteSvH2NE8w_4GmJV-Wr_jJLqQ/edit?usp=sharing

[gkrieg13]

/in

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Curious about the setup info before ining, but what's a stormlight?  Book series?

[mail-mi]

Curious about the setup info before ining, but what's a stormlight?  Book series?

Book series.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The way it's written right now, it looks like if 2 players choose the same role and one gets 0 votes, neither of them will end up with the PR, since the one with more votes becomes VT and the one with 0 votes becomes VT.  Is that how it's supposed to play out?

That section is really confusing.

[mail-mi]

The way it's written right now, it looks like if 2 players choose the same role and one gets 0 votes, neither of them will end up with the PR, since the one with more votes becomes VT and the one with 0 votes becomes VT.  Is that how it's supposed to play out?

That section is really confusing.

No, because the first rule is that 0's become vanilla. Then the second rule takes effect.

Yeah, took me a couple times to parse it too.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

– If there are two or more players choosing the same Power Role, the one who gets less Pre-Game Vote gets the PR and the other one remains Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon.

This should say "fewer" Pre-Game Votes rather than "less".

And shouldn't this be M66 since College Town is already full?

Anyway, I'm nervous about the balance, so I'll just
/tag
for now.  But if this doesn't start until at least one of Buffy/College Town/Mistborn is over and a second is either almost over or I'm dead I might /in.

[Witherweaver]

– If there are two or more players choosing the same Power Role, the one who gets less Pre-Game Vote gets the PR and the other one remains Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon.

This should say "fewer" Pre-Game Votes rather than "less".

And shouldn't this be M66 since College Town is already full?

Anyway, I'm nervous about the balance, so I'll just
/tag
for now.  But if this doesn't start until at least one of Buffy/College Town/Mistborn is over and a second is either almost over or I'm dead I might /in.

"less A than B" is satisfied when A < B. 

[mail-mi]

And shouldn't this be M66 since College Town is already full?

Changed.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

– If there are two or more players choosing the same Power Role, the one who gets less Pre-Game Vote gets the PR and the other one remains Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon.

This should say "fewer" Pre-Game Votes rather than "less".

And shouldn't this be M66 since College Town is already full?

Anyway, I'm nervous about the balance, so I'll just
/tag
for now.  But if this doesn't start until at least one of Buffy/College Town/Mistborn is over and a second is either almost over or I'm dead I might /in.

"less A than B" is satisfied when A < B.

"Pre-game votes" are a countable object.  It's fewer.

[Witherweaver]

– If there are two or more players choosing the same Power Role, the one who gets less Pre-Game Vote gets the PR and the other one remains Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon.

This should say "fewer" Pre-Game Votes rather than "less".

And shouldn't this be M66 since College Town is already full?

Anyway, I'm nervous about the balance, so I'll just
/tag
for now.  But if this doesn't start until at least one of Buffy/College Town/Mistborn is over and a second is either almost over or I'm dead I might /in.

"less A than B" is satisfied when A < B.

"Pre-game votes" are a countable object.  It's fewer.

You can take the prior to be a definition.  A < B makes sense for A,B in any countable set.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You can take the prior to be a definition.  A < B makes sense for A,B in any countable set.

Math rules don't define grammar though.  Formal logic would very often be ungrammatical if just transcribed into words.

[Witherweaver]

You can take the prior to be a definition.  A < B makes sense for A,B in any countable set.

Math rules don't define grammar though.  Formal logic would very often be ungrammatical if just transcribed into words.

The point is it's a rule that need not be followed.  Why should countability matter?  The condition is the same for countable and uncountable sets.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Because votes are very definitely countable.

Are you going to /in to Mail-mi's game or just keep arguing with me about grammar?  (I'm having fun, I'm just not sure Mail-mi is.)

[Witherweaver]

But that they're countable has no relevance.  The meaning is identical for countable and uncountable objects, as long as there is an ordering.  I mean it's silly to object to "If A < B, then I have less of A than B." with "Well, not necessarily.  You could have fewer."

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The issue isn't that "less" is the opposite of "fewer," it's that votes are plural and countable.  They aren't singular or a mass noun.

It's counting agreement, not different definitions.

The same reason you say "We are arguing" instead of "We is arguing."

[Witherweaver]

The issue isn't that "less" is the opposite of "fewer," it's that votes are plural and countable.  They aren't singular or a mass noun.

It's counting agreement, not different definitions.

The same reason you say "We are arguing" instead of "We is arguing."

Less was not claimed to be the opposite of fewer.  "I have less votes than you" makes sense whether or not votes are countable.  In fact, they could be uncountable and it would mean the same thing.  You don't need to know anything about it.*  If it's important that they are countable, then  you can emphasize with "fewer", but the usage really isn't necessary.  I'm sure we can come up with easy examples where ignoring verb conjugation leads to ambiguous sentences. 

The point is it's pedantry; I don't think there is an actual reason for the rule to be there, and indeed it is often ignored. 

*I.e., it could say "I have less mass than you".

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Less mass than you is absolutely correct, and I'd yell at you for claiming to have fewer mass than me.

The point is, since when is pedantry disallowed on f.ds?

[faust]

/in

Is pre-game strategy discussion allowed?

[mail-mi]

/in

Is pre-game strategy discussion allowed?

Pre game as in before the game starts of pre game as in the pre game phase described above?

[Witherweaver]

Less mass than you is absolutely correct, and I'd yell at you for claiming to have fewer mass than me.

The point is, since when is pedantry disallowed on f.ds?

When it's lessfewer better than normal pedantry.

[faust]

/in

Is pre-game strategy discussion allowed?

Pre game as in before the game starts of pre game as in the pre game phase described above?

Before the game starts.

[faust]

Discussing about the Pre-Game phase, including the PRs and the Pre-Game Votes, in a public topic (eg. the game itself, the Queue) is strictly forbidden, however, the Mafia has Daytalk, and are allowed and encouraged to discuss their PR choices and votes.

Also, is this necessary? I have a strong dislike for posting restrictions and don't think they belong in a normal game.

[faust]

Actually, /out as long as the game still has a posting restriction.

[mail-mi]

Discussing about the Pre-Game phase, including the PRs and the Pre-Game Votes, in a public topic (eg. the game itself, the Queue) is strictly forbidden, however, the Mafia has Daytalk, and are allowed and encouraged to discuss their PR choices and votes.

Also, is this necessary? I have a strong dislike for posting restrictions and don't think they belong in a normal game.

Well, I think just restricting talking about who you voted for, because you could solve the whole set up. Is that okay?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote claiming is really good for town, easy to catch scum in a lie.  If it's allowed, it changes scum's best voting strategy, but then the game could swing so much on how people vote and who rolls scum... 

@Mail-mi: I'm kind of fascinated by this game even though I don't want to play.  The mechanics are neat, I can't stop thinking about them.  I've never modded or co-modded anything before and I don't know the flavor at all, but if you want I could help out with co-modding.  I like the idea of modding a game someday and it would be nice to get in some practice helping.  Given my previous site-flake and lack of experience I'd understand if you don't want me of course, no offense taken.  But I'll probably be watching closely anyway.

[mail-mi]

Vote claiming is really good for town, easy to catch scum in a lie.  If it's allowed, it changes scum's best voting strategy, but then the game could swing so much on how people vote and who rolls scum... 

@Mail-mi: I'm kind of fascinated by this game even though I don't want to play.  The mechanics are neat, I can't stop thinking about them.  I've never modded or co-modded anything before and I don't know the flavor at all, but if you want I could help out with co-modding.  I like the idea of modding a game someday and it would be nice to get in some practice helping.  Given my previous site-flake and lack of experience I'd understand if you don't want me of course, no offense taken.  But I'll probably be watching closely anyway.

Exactly. I think I'm going to disallow vote claiming but allow everything else.

Definitely! Co-modding is the only way to get experience after all.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Cool!  Looking forward to it then.

[Ghacob]

/in

Is pre-game strategy discussion allowed?

Pre game as in before the game starts of pre game as in the pre game phase described above?

Before the game starts.

I would definitely like to ask about strategy discussion in pre-pregame, i.e. now


As

[mail-mi]

/in

Is pre-game strategy discussion allowed?

Pre game as in before the game starts of pre game as in the pre game phase described above?

Before the game starts.

I would definitely like to ask about strategy discussion in pre-pregame, i.e. now


As

Well, that's obviously allowed, as the game has yet to start.

[scott_pilgrim]

/tag

I agree with faust, for some reason the posting restriction really ruins the purity of the game to me.  It would be a lot better if there was a good way to do it without having restrictions.

I don't really understand the idea of the pre-game voting from a design perspective though.  Isn't it basically just random who votes for whom?  Or I guess the idea is that mafia will want to vote for each other, so it's a little better than random for them?

[Ghacob]

/in

Is pre-game strategy discussion allowed?

Pre game as in before the game starts of pre game as in the pre game phase described above?

Before the game starts.

I would definitely like to ask about strategy discussion in pre-pregame, i.e. now


As

Well, that's obviously allowed, as the game has yet to start.

Congratulations! This game is both easily broken and the posting restriction does literally nothing!

[silverspawn]

I'm not sure if I have a problem with the posting restriction, but I'm also not a big fan of blind WIFOM, especially if it has the all or nothing aspect. Like, two players select cop and both get 1 vote - awesome. 3 players select cop - now we have nothing. game might very well decided by that. meh.

[Ghacob]

What if this process was randomized?

Maybe some simple rules like mafia should vote for eachother and not be friendly neighbor... hmm

I'll return with some results

[2.71828.....]

So.....we start this game and finish it in what.....20 years?

But love the books.  Wish I could play but just don't have time right now

/tag

[2.71828.....]

when does book three come out anyway?  I just really feel like Brandon Sanderson needs to quit all his other books and just focus on these. 

[Ghacob]

Just had one trial where I had everyone choose a random role, and then have everyone but mafia vote a random player, mafia distributing one vote each amongst themselves. Although it could probably be refined by giving mafia only a select of the roles, even perhaps by letting them choose their roles/vote distributions? this gives you an idea I guess

Mafia:
2 shot tracker
2 shot redirector
2 shot jailkeeper
Town:
1 shot commuter
1 shot commuter
1 shot rolecop
1 shot mystic
2 shot desperado
6 VTs

A big plus to this I see is removing vote meta, although that too could be fixed by only randomizing votes and letting everyone make their own choices, that's a thought

[mail-mi]

when does book three come out anyway?  I just really feel like Brandon Sanderson needs to quit all his other books and just focus on these.

If he does that they'd actually come out slower than they do now. He jumps from book to book to refresh himself so he keeps chugging out books all the time, faster than any other fantasy author that I know of.

[EgorK]

/in

[faust]

Exactly. I think I'm going to disallow vote claiming but allow everything else.

Well, posting restrictions can always be played around. I can say "I would definitely vote for a strong player" and then "I think ashersky is a strong player". I haven't vote claimed, have I? BBut everyone knows who I voted for.

[mail-mi]

Do people not like the set up? I can choose a different one if that's what people prefer.

[mail-mi]

Exactly. I think I'm going to disallow vote claiming but allow everything else.

Well, posting restrictions can always be played around. I can say "I would definitely vote for a strong player" and then "I think ashersky is a strong player". I haven't vote claimed, have I? BBut everyone knows who I voted for.

That's why it and now I would disallow any discussion of pre-game votes .

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, so I don't want to distract from the thread, but would it be worth thinking out loud and discussing optimal strategies in thread?  Would that help or hurt the game?

And Mail-mi, would having a discussion about optimal strategies in-thread now help figure out if slight rules changes would make things smoother?

(I'm not claiming to have game-theoried this whole thing out myself, I find that's always easier when I get in a fight with someone about it.)

[chairs]

I think the appropriate vote choice is to vote for chairs.

/in

I'm still not sold that removing the posting restriction entirely is a "bad thing" necessarily, but I don't mind playing with it in place.

[mail-mi]

Okay, so I don't want to distract from the thread, but would it be worth thinking out loud and discussing optimal strategies in thread?  Would that help or hurt the game?

And Mail-mi, would having a discussion about optimal strategies in-thread now help figure out if slight rules changes would make things smoother?

Yeah, maybe...

Do people want to change the set up?

[gkrieg13]

I think the setup is interesting, but there is no promise that it will be balanced imho.

[mail-mi]

I could do a Donald's Greater Idea Mafia 2. That I can at least reroll the set up to have some promise of some semblance of balance.

[silverspawn]

well I don't like the setup very much for the reason I explained earlier, so, yeah, changing it sounds good.

[mail-mi]

SET UP HAS BEEN CHANGED.

This is now Donald's Greater Idea Mafia 2.

[Ghacob]

/in
Yes please, sorry for the harshness of the whole everything

[A Drowned Kernel]

I assume that the cards will be changed from last time.

In any case, /in

[Ghacob]

...I just remembered that I will be going away for 3 weeks in 2 weeks which is not enough time to play mafia in, therefore
/out
/tag

[mail-mi]

I assume that the cards will be changed from last time.

In any case, /in

Actually...nope. Way too much work...

...so I just went and deleted the link to the cards from the old game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Uh well I absolutely remember what I picked last time...

[A Drowned Kernel]

And could probably remember a few others given a minute to think about it.

[mail-mi]

Uh well I absolutely remember what I picked last time...

Never mind, some will be changed. And you won't know what those some are so hah.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think you should just make the list public pre-game, since I think the consensus last time was that that makes a better game anyway, and that way you don't have to redo anything.

[mail-mi]

I think you should just make the list public pre-game, since I think the consensus last time was that that makes a better game anyway, and that way you don't have to redo anything.

Alright, will do.

[XerxesPraelor]

/in

[EgorK]

SET UP HAS BEEN CHANGED.

This is now Donald's Greater Idea Mafia 2.

Hope we'll see Stormlight themed game some day (though I'd prefer RMM)

[silverspawn]

cool, /in

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It seems like there might be a way to have a balanced-ish game with something like the old setup and without a post restriction somehow.  Maybe this should be another thread though?

Basically, I was thinking there might be something in the idea of scum having a vote and an ability to redirect votes to themselves during the pre-game phase.  Balance remains a concern, but it would solve the claim issue in a neat way I think, without a posting restriction.

Means scum wants to vote for weak players or players they intend to redirect, but not too obviously.  Town probably wants to randomize their voting with some bias toward those regarded as strong but not so much that PRs are predictable and redirected.

Was also thinking that maybe if scum didn't get shots for non-redirected votes it might reduce randomness/dependence on who the scumteam is.

Anyway, I'm still looking forward to helping out with this as Greater Idea, but just wanted to get my thoughts out if you want to try to work this out again some day.  Should we start a thread for that?

[Hydrad]

/in

[Seprix]

/in

[ashersky]

/tag

[A Drowned Kernel]

/out

[QuickSync]

Hi, I'm new. I'm visiting different forums to see how mafia play differs from site to site. I have about 6 months experience playing mafia on two different sites with a total of about 12 games played.

/in

[EgorK]

Hi, I'm new. I'm visiting different forums to see how mafia play differs from site to site. I have about 6 months experience playing mafia on two different sites with a total of about 12 games played.

/in

Welcome!

You'd probably need to sign civility pledge over there - http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695

[faust]

I would play if this start after August 9.

[QuickSync]

Welcome!

You'd probably need to sign civility pledge over there - http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695

Thanks, I have now done so.

[mail-mi]

I would play if this start after August 9.

It might. I'm vacationing til late July and it could maybe wait that long.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If anyone wants to talk about the original setup Mail-mi proposed, I made a new thread for it (with some modifications to the rules based on what I was suggesting in here.)

It'd be fun if we could come up with a balanced version without the post restriction.  But will take a bit of work perhaps.

Anyway, it's here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13631.0

[skip wooznum]

How big is this game going to be? I ask because the more players, the larger the thread, and I can't commit to rereading a 75+ page thread multiple times throughout the course of the game. But if it's less than that, I'll gladly play.

[mail-mi]

How big is this game going to be? I ask because the more players, the larger the thread, and I can't commit to rereading a 75+ page thread multiple times throughout the course of the game. But if it's less than that, I'll gladly play.

13 minimum, perhaps bigger.

It's not that serious of a game considering the set up, so you won't have to reread as much.

[silverspawn]

How big is this game going to be? I ask because the more players, the larger the thread, and I can't commit to rereading a 75+ page thread multiple times throughout the course of the game. But if it's less than that, I'll gladly play.

13 minimum, perhaps bigger.

It's not that serious of a game considering the set up, so you won't have to reread as much.

what? since when does the seriousness of a game depend on the setup? It's a normal games, so it's serious.

[skip wooznum]

How big is this game going to be? I ask because the more players, the larger the thread, and I can't commit to rereading a 75+ page thread multiple times throughout the course of the game. But if it's less than that, I'll gladly play.

13 minimum, perhaps bigger.

It's not that serious of a game considering the set up, so you won't have to reread as much.

what? since when does the seriousness of a game depend on the setup? It's a normal games, so it's serious.

yes I assumed any normal game is supposed to be taken seriously. So I guess for now ill wait and see how many people join

[mail-mi]

No, I didn't say not taken seriously, I just mean a little less serious.

[silverspawn]

No, I didn't say not taken seriously, I just mean a little less serious.

well, okay. I disagree.

[Axxle]

/in 

[Axxle]

How big is this game going to be? I ask because the more players, the larger the thread, and I can't commit to rereading a 75+ page thread multiple times throughout the course of the game. But if it's less than that, I'll gladly play.

13 minimum, perhaps bigger.

It's not that serious of a game considering the set up, so you won't have to reread as much.

what? since when does the seriousness of a game depend on the setup? It's a normal games, so it's serious.

I think this needs to be rebranded as role madness (if that's still a thing)

[faust]

How big is this game going to be? I ask because the more players, the larger the thread, and I can't commit to rereading a 75+ page thread multiple times throughout the course of the game. But if it's less than that, I'll gladly play.

13 minimum, perhaps bigger.

It's not that serious of a game considering the set up, so you won't have to reread as much.

what? since when does the seriousness of a game depend on the setup? It's a normal games, so it's serious.

I think this needs to be rebranded as role madness (if that's still a thing)

The last Greater Idea Mafia was run as normal. But yeah, RMM would probably be a better fit.

[skip wooznum]

Alright I'll /in but im gonna out if this hits, oh, say, 16.

[Seprix]

/out

Going to be making my own game, want to make sure I have time.

[Joseph2302]

I'm back, /in.

[mail-mi]

Are people not playing this because of the set up? I have a few setups I want to try out, and I could just have a closed simple setup instead of the greater idea.

Or we can keep it to greater idea if people want that.

[skip wooznum]

Are people not playing this because of the set up? I have a few setups I want to try out, and I could just have a closed simple setup instead of the greater idea.

Or we can keep it to greater idea if people want that.

im up for whatever, as long as there aren't too many players

[hockeysemlan]

/in

[Joseph2302]

Are people not playing this because of the set up? I have a few setups I want to try out, and I could just have a closed simple setup instead of the greater idea.

Or we can keep it to greater idea if people want that.

im up for whatever, as long as there aren't too many players

Don't mind either way.

[Beyond Awesome]

I would like to play, but I work 10 hour shifts, hence my absence from Mafia. However, my first Mafia game was the first Greater Idea, and I had a blast the first time. Plus, full random is awesome.

[skip wooznum]

Have to /out. Terribly sorry, but I just won't be able to play. Best of luck filling this up though. Sorry again.

[faust]

/in

[mail-mi]

So, school is starting soon, and I won't be able to play in any games, much less moderating any. So, because of that, I am officially giving all modding privledges to UoS. He may want to start a new thread for it so he controls the OP.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay then.

Well this is an odd way to backdoor my way into modding my first game, but I'm happy to do it and I promise to do my best.

Would probably like to have someone co-mod though.

Anyway, I see a couple options for this game:
a) Keep it exactly as is, wait for it to fill up
b) An idea I had that I PMed Mail-mi about for running Greater idea with a smaller playercount, I'll post that below.
c) Some variation on the at-this-point-heavily-modified "Charge Me Up!" setup that I've been hashing out in the other thread
d) A totally different open setup, there are plenty I'd be happy to run.
e) A closed setup based on roles in the Greater Idea deck.

Don't worry about my time, I'm happy to put the time in for any of these.  What do you guys (people signed up, and people who would want to sign up) want?

I'll then also come up with some probably stupid theme to tack onto it, but mechanics come first IMO.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Here's the idea that I had for running Greater Idea with a smaller playercount:

We had rolled up 6 sets of Greater Idea hand-deals and were going to choose one that looked likely to produce balanced results, and then pick the next best one etc. if player choice became unbalanced btw.  It looks like there is always some set of choices that could lead to terrible setups, but some are more likely to produce problems than others.


Hey, so I've been thinking (dangerous, I might need to be stopped.)

If you want to run Greater Idea with 10 players or something, the big hurdles are that it's much less likely to create multiplayer scumteams, rather than multiple 1-player scumteams, and that multiball is pretty dang hard to balance at 10 players even if you were trying really hard, much less randomly.

So what if you ran it with a smaller playercount, and the modification that all non-3rd-party scum roles (Aliens/Werewolves/Mafia) would be on the same team?

The scum concentration in the deck might be a little high, but that could be fixed by pre-rolling some setups and choosing among them as we did before.  (Or just truncating the ones already rolled.)

It'd be fun to leave the names as they are, so an Alien, a Werewolf, and a Mafioso walk into a bar and plot the destruction of town.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Here are the 4 open setups that most appeal to me:

Duck, Duck, Goose: 3 goons vs 8-9 1-shot Paranoid Gun Owners

Follow the Cop... or not: Tracker, Doctor, Cop, Cop returns scum result regardless of truth if he was protected by the Doctor that night.

11 P.M.: Multiball: Goon + Watcher vs. Goon + Watcher vs. 6 VTs + Watcher.  First 2 VTs shot are bulletproof.

Paris Mafia: Vig, Watcher, 5 VTs vs. 2 Goons vs. 2 Mimes.  Mime team are jesters that end the game with a win if they are both lynched.  If either Mime is NKed, the other suicides.

If a closed setup, I'll run it by a couple people not on this site to help check for balance, and also with anyone who wants to co-mod.  Just because there are a lot of Watchers and Trackers in these open setups doesn't mean anything about a closed setup, I don't love the roles especially (although they are neater than cops), they just happen to be in a lot of these.

If you want, could try to design a closed setup using some of the more funny roles in the Greater Idea list.  Would still aim to make it a normal-ish game rather than RMM though.

[ashersky]

I'd play Paris.

[XerxesPraelor]

11 PM and Paris both sound fun.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'd play Paris.

Reading up on previously run Paris games, the consensus seems to be that it's Mafia-sided.

Stealing from things others suggested and adding my own twist:

What if the Jesters are immune to MAFIA night kills (but die to vigs) and the town also has a universal backup?  Mafia learning who jesters are through kill-failure seems interesting to me, because they can't claim it without dying, but they can work against Jesters subtly that way.  Since Mimes have a factional roleblock but not a factional kill, at least Mafia don't know for sure.

EDIT:  A town UB introduces a breaking strategy whereby the watcher watches the Vig so Mimes can't RB him and scum can't kill him, and the UB takes over after he dies.

But Watcher allows for more creative use of the Mime factional roleblock than tracker would...

[scott_pilgrim]

I can help co-mod if you want.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I can help co-mod if you want.

Love to have you, Scott.

As long as you don't mind if I tend to be on the wordy side.  Shocking I know.

So because I'm a bit anxious to get this started, I'm going to start pondering Paris Mafia fixes to make it less mafia-sided.  It looks like 2 more townies and a UB will go a long way to helping town, and the townies help mimes too.  Potential endgame situations are complicated, so I'm going to work out a ruleset and run it by you before putting up a new thread for this.

And would you want to look at a closed setup based on the Greater Idea deck I came up with?  I could go with that too.

[Axxle]

Duck duck goose sounds hilarious.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, so Charge me up needs more work and players than I want to give it, and I don't want to wait for the bare minimum for regular Greater Idea to fill as it's been stalling for a while.

So here's a poll, select as many as you like (or don't bother if you don't really care.)
http://strawpoll.me/5187921

[QuickSync]

Okay then.

Well this is an odd way to backdoor my way into modding my first game, but I'm happy to do it and I promise to do my best.

Would probably like to have someone co-mod though.

Anyway, I see a couple options for this game:
a) Keep it exactly as is, wait for it to fill up
b) An idea I had that I PMed Mail-mi about for running Greater idea with a smaller playercount, I'll post that below.
c) Some variation on the at-this-point-heavily-modified "Charge Me Up!" setup that I've been hashing out in the other thread
d) A totally different open setup, there are plenty I'd be happy to run.
e) A closed setup based on roles in the Greater Idea deck.

Don't worry about my time, I'm happy to put the time in for any of these.  What do you guys (people signed up, and people who would want to sign up) want?

I'll then also come up with some probably stupid theme to tack onto it, but mechanics come first IMO.

It would be a shame if all that talk about a take off from the Greater Idea variation was for nothing. I'm all for you doing your own rendition!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Charge Me Up is definitely not ready the more I think about it.  I'm definitely going to run it some day after obsessing about it so much, but it is not good enough yet.

Duck Duck Goose I am comfortable running as is, I believe it is balanced.

I've been thinking about Paris Mafia and chatting with Scott about it, I've got a ruleset I want to run by you guys for any comment or complaints, see next post.

I've read most of the old games where they ran this on Mafiascum, even though it looks hard for Mafia to win at first, it seems to actually be very Mafia-sided because of the chaos introduced by the Mimes, and the town worrying about lynching the Mimes.  So my balances are in favor of giving Town and Mimes more of a shot.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This game will use a modified version of the Paris Mafia setup
It will be a 13 player setup with the following roles, I also believe town would suffer less from changing 13->12 here than normal due to the large number of vig shots that are likely to happen.  Anyway, I think 13 is best.

2 Mafia Goons
2 Mimes
1 Watcher
1 Vigilante
1 Backup Vigilante
1 Neapolitan
5 Vanilla Townies

Mime Mechanics

• No lynch happens when no majority reached in a day, and takes 50% of the votes rounded up.
  
• The Mimes win when they are both lynched, or when a second No Lynch occurs if any mimes are still alive.  When the Mimes win, the game is immediately over in a loss for the other teams.
• Because of the 2nd No-Lynch clause, and no-lynching on 50% rounded up, Mimes win if the game comes down to just VTs and Mimes.  The No Lynch or lynching the mimes is then eventually inevitable
• If one Mime is Night Killed, the other immediately suicides.
• Each Mime is also a Jailkeeper

Mafia

• Mafia win when they control half the town or nothing can prevent this
• The Mafia's Night Kill is compulsory.  If no target is submitted, one will be chosen at random from among the entire player list.

Town

• Town wins when all non-town players are dead
• Neapolitan is a cop that returns a result of Vanilla Townie/Not Vanilla Townie.
• Watchers and Neapolitans receive "No Result" if roleblocked, Watcher receives "No Visitors" if she targets someone no one else targeted.
• Kills happen simultaneously, if the Vig or Goon would be killed, their shot still goes through.
• Vigs are unwatchable, the Watcher will receive "No Result"

Thoughts?  Questions?

I think I'm down to this or Duck Duck Goose.  I'll create a new thread with a rules post, and a setup post once I decide on that and a theme in the next couple days.  I would like everyone to re-confirm at that point since the game/theme/mod/mechanics will have changed and it might not be what you signed up for, but I'll put everyone who is /in here in parentheses, your spots will be reserved.  (Somehow I doubt that will matter, but best to be safe.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It would be a shame if all that talk about a take off from the Greater Idea variation was for nothing. I'm all for you doing your own rendition!

After some thought and some talk with Scott, I think the closed Greater Idea idea I had would work better as a bastard setup.  I still like it though, so I'll delete it from the Mod QT before I post that after this game.

[skip wooznum]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

[ashersky]

If mimes JK each other, both succeed or both fail?

[ashersky]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If mimes JK each other, both succeed or both fail?

Thanks, should have cleared that up.

Both fail.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

What Ash said, in a perfect world I think it'd be nice if each faction had a 33% win rate.  I expect Mimes are going to still be lower than that in practice.

Also, Mimes winning comes naturally from the No Lynch rule, if you were to play all the days out, town would have to eventually either No Lynch, Lynch the Mimes, or lynch all the town until a single Mime could unilaterally No Lynch.  (i.e. 1 Mime, 1 Town)

Giving town the win would be an extra rule, rather than an implication of the existing rule.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Proposed new terminology: MIMELO: When town have to lynch a non-mime or lose.

[skip wooznum]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

What Ash said, in a perfect world I think it'd be nice if each faction had a 33% win rate.  I expect Mimes are going to still be lower than that in practice.

Also, Mimes winning comes naturally from the No Lynch rule, if you were to play all the days out, town would have to eventually either No Lynch, Lynch the Mimes, or lynch all the town until a single Mime could unilaterally No Lynch.  (i.e. 1 Mime, 1 Town)

Giving town the win would be an extra rule, rather than an implication of the existing rule.

I'm not sure I'd consider it an extra rule. Town's usual wincon is something like "you win when all threats to town are eliminated." Mimes could be classified as not being a threat.
Town lynches in order to kill the mafia. When they're done killing the mafia they don't need to lynch. If you're having trouble balancing the setup that's fair, but I don't think making the town auto-lose once the vig dies (I know mafia can kill the mimes and then town can lynch mafia, but is it ever in mafia's best interest to do that? They'd always aim for town, and they'd have to miss for town to have a chance) is going to be much more balanced. What was the rule in previous games with this setup?

[ashersky]

Mafia and/or vig only needs to kill one Mime and both die.  It can be game over on N1.  Sucks and is hard.

It isn't unfair to help.

[scott_pilgrim]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

What Ash said, in a perfect world I think it'd be nice if each faction had a 33% win rate.  I expect Mimes are going to still be lower than that in practice.

Also, Mimes winning comes naturally from the No Lynch rule, if you were to play all the days out, town would have to eventually either No Lynch, Lynch the Mimes, or lynch all the town until a single Mime could unilaterally No Lynch.  (i.e. 1 Mime, 1 Town)

Giving town the win would be an extra rule, rather than an implication of the existing rule.

I'm not sure I'd consider it an extra rule. Town's usual wincon is something like "you win when all threats to town are eliminated." Mimes could be classified as not being a threat.
Town lynches in order to kill the mafia. When they're done killing the mafia they don't need to lynch. If you're having trouble balancing the setup that's fair, but I don't think making the town auto-lose once the vig dies (I know mafia can kill the mimes and then town can lynch mafia, but is it ever in mafia's best interest to do that? They'd always aim for town, and they'd have to miss for town to have a chance) is going to be much more balanced. What was the rule in previous games with this setup?

I've been talking about it with UoS, and that was one of my biggest concerns too.  Right now, the proposed set-up includes a back-up vig to make it less swingy.  If the vig dies, the back-up vig takes over, so they'd both have to die for it to become an issue.  Even if they both die, town can still come back by having scum kill one of the mimes (they only need to hit one for the other to suicide).

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I mean, I added the backup Vig for a reason.

Also, Mime and Town have mutually exclusive win conditions, so they're not really pro-town either.

One previous run had the mimes not die when one was NKed and only able to win by both being lynched so they became a terrible kingmaker.  That game it wasn't clear and the modding was kind of a mess.

Second game also didn't bother to spell that out, was left ambiguous.  Since it's not that likely to happen, I guess it didn't matter, but I don't like that kind of ambiguity.

Third game specified that town wins once both Mafia are lynched.  The town actually won that one, but Mimes felt they had no real chance.  No Lynching was also used somewhat abusively by town, which is the other reason to add the no lynch thing, that's a way to really screw over the mimes.

I do think Mimes winning is more intuitive though, it's not just for balance.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The other idea we talked about was Watcher become the vig when the vig dies, and Neapolitan become vig when vig and watcher are both dead, but that seems way more complicated than just having a backup vig and making the vig Unwatchable.

[skip wooznum]

Do we really want a situation where town doesn't want to kill the second goon because they need him to kill a mime?

I missed the backup vig thing. That makes it extremely unlikely that this happens, I guess. And if the vig is alive, then I guess id rather the game continue....

I'm torn about this...

Then again im not even playing so my opinion matters little.

[Archetype]

Why is the Vig immune to the Watcher? So that if scum fakeclaim the Watcher can't confirm the Town one?

The setup looks fun and the Mimes being JKs is neat, but them dying N1 may still be a problem. Hmm. What you could do is give them a factional JK power and then a factional 1-shot Bulletproof (used the first time one of them is NK'd). I also think that the Mafia may be a bit underpowered. Maybe give them Daychat or make the Neapolitan a Vanilla Cop?

[ashersky]

I think the mimes are always underpowered in the setup.  I think you need to help them even more than you are now, to be honest.  I mean...you've got mafia + vig + back-up vig trying to take them out.

[skip wooznum]

Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

[scott_pilgrim]

Why is the Vig immune to the Watcher? So that if scum fakeclaim the Watcher can't confirm the Town one?

To prevent the vig from claiming so that the watcher can watch him.  My biggest concern with the back-up vig was that it would allow the normal vig to claim freely.

Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

Without all the stuff UoS came up with to prevent abuse, town can just no lynch whenever they want so they don't have to worry about the mimes.  For example, if they lynch a mime, they might decide it's better not to lynch anyone for a while and just let their vig take out scum and/or the other mime, and they can also hope scum takes out the other mime.  It's even worse after they've taken out both scum players; then town would just never lynch and wait for the vig to take out the mimes.

[Axxle]

I think roles that win if lynched or killed some other way is unfun. There's enough to worry about in the game than if someone is being purposefully scummy.

[Axxle]

I mean for a serious game. Silly bastard or drunk games they can be fun.

[skip wooznum]

quote author=skip wooznum link=topic=13595.msg517164#msg517164 date=1439435155]
Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

Without all the stuff UoS came up with to prevent abuse, town can just no lynch whenever they want so they don't have to worry about the mimes.  For example, if they lynch a mime, they might decide it's better not to lynch anyone for a while and just let their vig take out scum and/or the other mime, and they can also hope scum takes out the other mime.  It's even worse after they've taken out both scum players; then town would just never lynch and wait for the vig to take out the mimes.
[/quote]no-lynching before scum is dead is ever worthwhile? Interesting.....

I understand the potential abuse once the rule is town needs to keep playing after mafia dies. UoS implied they could abuse it when that was not the rule.

[skip wooznum]

Bust......

[skip wooznum]

Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

Without all the stuff UoS came up with to prevent abuse, town can just no lynch whenever they want so they don't have to worry about the mimes.  For example, if they lynch a mime, they might decide it's better not to lynch anyone for a while and just let their vig take out scum and/or the other mime, and they can also hope scum takes out the other mime.  It's even worse after they've taken out both scum players; then town would just never lynch and wait for the vig to take out the mimes.

no-lynching before scum is dead is ever worthwhile? Interesting.....

I understand the potential abuse once the rule is town needs to keep playing after mafia dies. UoS implied they could abuse it when that was not the rule.

[ashersky]

Thinking about this some more, I think I thought of something.  What is the mimes' win condition is to both die the same way?

That is, if one is NKed, instead of suiciding, the other mime needs to be NKed.  That keeps the mimes in the game longer.  Mime is still a pro role, of course, and win chances are definitely less than town or scum, but it adds to it.

I'd do this:

2 mafia goons
2 mimes with a factional JK
1 watcher
1 vig
1 VT cop
5 VTs

That's a 12 player game -- the vanilla cop gets vanilla/not vanilla results, all players other than VTs return "not vanilla" which could be town PR, scum, mime...

Mimes win when both are dead the same way or with two consecutive no lynches.
Goons win when all town members are dead or they control half the town.
Town wins when all scum and one mime are dead.

[ashersky]

That still needs some adjustments, but I think is headed the right way.

[Awaclus]

/in

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I understand the potential abuse once the rule is town needs to keep playing after mafia dies. UoS implied they could abuse it when that was not the rule.

It lets town decide to give scum the advantage to prevent Mimes from winning.  Mime paranoia seems to be a big problem.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thinking about this some more, I think I thought of something.  What is the mimes' win condition is to both die the same way?

That is, if one is NKed, instead of suiciding, the other mime needs to be NKed.  That keeps the mimes in the game longer.  Mime is still a pro role, of course, and win chances are definitely less than town or scum, but it adds to it.

I'd do this:

2 mafia goons
2 mimes with a factional JK
1 watcher
1 vig
1 VT cop
5 VTs

That's a 12 player game -- the vanilla cop gets vanilla/not vanilla results, all players other than VTs return "not vanilla" which could be town PR, scum, mime...

Mimes win when both are dead the same way or with two consecutive no lynches.
Goons win when all town members are dead or they control half the town.
Town wins when all scum and one mime are dead.

I could get behind the mimes dying the same way thing, someone suggested that elsewhere I think, but I don't think it got any response.

Why make the no-lynches consecutive though?  Town doesn't have many legitimate reasons to No Lynch more than once anyway.

Also, why not make town have to eliminate all the mafia and mimes?  That still allows the weird situation where Mimes auto-win near the end, but it's even less common because both scum have to be dead and vig dead and both mimes alive, or the dead mime has to be dead by NK with the vig dead and the mafia dead.

I don't know, it seems pretty hard to achieve, but is still a slight boost to the mimes.

And I think "all non-town eliminated" is a more natural town wincon anyway.

I do agree that we can eliminate the backup Vig if Mimes can win by both being NKed, town is more likely able to get one Mime dead by NK and lynch the other or something.  And that makes the VT cop more useful.

Do you think the both-Mimes-as-JK is too strong for Mimes?  Or just like it as more natural because it's akin to the Mafia night kill?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The setup looks fun and the Mimes being JKs is neat, but them dying N1 may still be a problem. Hmm. What you could do is give them a factional JK power and then a factional 1-shot Bulletproof (used the first time one of them is NK'd). I also think that the Mafia may be a bit underpowered. Maybe give them Daychat or make the Neapolitan a Vanilla Cop?

Yeah, we were talking about the factional 1-shot BP as well.

I don't think Mafia is underpowered though, Mimes do a lot to disrupt town, without actually having great chances to win themselves.  Mafia would be way underpowered if it were just against the town, but the Mimes mess with things a lot.  I worry that Daychat in particular would allow a lot of anti-Mime coordination on the already difficult to play Mimes.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think roles that win if lynched or killed some other way is unfun. There's enough to worry about in the game than if someone is being purposefully scummy.

I feel the same way about Jesters, but do you really think the Mimes can win by being purposefully scummy in a game with a town vig and where both of them have to be lynched (and thus lynching the first one is "safe" for town) and where it's an open setup so they are known.

I generally think I'd only be okay with Jesters in an open setup with a vig and where either the game doesn't end when they are lynched, or if it does, when it's a team like this that needs both lynched.

But this seems to cure most of the problems of Jesters IMO.  (I'm not locked into this though, just talking out the options.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, and regarding the double JK on the mimes:  I was thinking that it's usually going to be equivalent to a factional JK (either when one Mime is dead, or when one wants to protect the other) but occasionally it may be optimal for them to try to get two shots at preventing the NK or the Vig.

In that case it's a bit better, but it also makes the Watcher a bit better of an Anti-Mime tool, because there's only one other non-mime visitor besides the watcher if the target doesn't turn up dead.

A Mime doctor and a Mime JK was something else we were tossing around.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Mimes Jailkeep by creating an invisible box around the target, by the way.

[ashersky]

I could get behind the mimes dying the same way thing, someone suggested that elsewhere I think, but I don't think it got any response.

Why make the no-lynches consecutive though?  Town doesn't have many legitimate reasons to No Lynch more than once anyway.

Also, why not make town have to eliminate all the mafia and mimes?  That still allows the weird situation where Mimes auto-win near the end, but it's even less common because both scum have to be dead and vig dead and both mimes alive, or the dead mime has to be dead by NK with the vig dead and the mafia dead.

I don't know, it seems pretty hard to achieve, but is still a slight boost to the mimes.

And I think "all non-town eliminated" is a more natural town wincon anyway.

I do agree that we can eliminate the backup Vig if Mimes can win by both being NKed, town is more likely able to get one Mime dead by NK and lynch the other or something.  And that makes the VT cop more useful.

Do you think the both-Mimes-as-JK is too strong for Mimes?  Or just like it as more natural because it's akin to the Mafia night kill?

I don't know why I said consecutive.  Just a thing to say.  Town would (should) never no lynch twice if they know that gives Mimes the win.

If neither mime has been NKed, making two lynch them to win is odd...since mimes would win if they were eliminated.  So I feel like if it's town vs. mimes, you end up wanting to lynch one, then no lynching until your vig shoots them, which isn't fun or fair.

I would definitely eliminate the backup.

Both Mimes as JKs is super strong.  I think a factional ability is better.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If neither mime has been NKed, making two lynch them to win is odd...since mimes would win if they were eliminated.  So I feel like if it's town vs. mimes, you end up wanting to lynch one, then no lynching until your vig shoots them, which isn't fun or fair.

I don't think town should win if both Mimes are alive and the vig is dead.  I think mimes should auto-win and town lose there.  Or maybe everyone but Mafia should win?

Not sure about all the cases brought up by this rule.

I don't know, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around all the possible cases with the both either NKed or Lynched thing, probably need to write this out on paper or something.

This is also a sort of weird conversation, because I think we need to have it, but the chances of both Mafia being killed before any Mimes are pretty slim I think.  So a ton of attention needs to be paid to what is basically an edge case.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm still debating Duck Duck Goose and coming up with a less Bastard Greater Idea inspired closed setup by the way, since those are the other leading options.

Either way, I want to work out a Paris setup because I think it looks fun and would love to run it at some point, even if not now.  Seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for it though, so that's probably the way I'm leaning of the 3 right now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, new thread is up here.  Please re-/in if you still want to be in.  (Ash and Awaclus expressed interest in this thread, so I've also reserved them space in the process of upping the player number.)