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Author Topic: Self-topdecking  (Read 7032 times)

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market squire

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Self-topdecking
« on: October 10, 2014, 08:48:20 am »
+3

Hi, I don't know whether this has already come up here but I think this is an interesting general topic on card design. Self-Topdecking is a bit like Prince, just with a condition.

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

Are there any other effects that may be worth self-topdecking?
Which conditions make such effects more interesting/ even just possible?



Some ideas:

Religious foundation (Action) $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
____________________
When you discard this from play, if your deck is not empty, you may put this on top of your deck.

Here the atom is "trash a card", so this is a Chapel variant. The trashing is not as quick, but more consistent. The condition "if your deck is not empty" is because this can happen easily with a thin deck.


Poet (Action) $3
+1 Action
+1 VP
____________________
When you discard this from play, if you gained a Victory card this turn, you may put this on top of your deck.

This is my first approach to a non-cantrip self-topdecker. You play with 1 less card every turn, but you get VP for it. The condition is the opposite of Treasury because otherwise the game might never end.


Night watchman (Action) $5
+3 Cards
If this is the first card you play this turn: +1 Action.
Otherwise, put this on top of your deck.

What about on-play topdecking? The turn starts with 7 cards if you get to play this in the morning. Otherwise the watchman is kind of sad and waits for the next day. It may be a problem that you could play the same card multiple times in a turn, but I didn't find any issues with that yet.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2014, 08:58:21 am »
+1

I like Night Watchman!
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Witherweaver

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2014, 10:26:16 am »
0

Anyone ever think of a Reaction card that you can reveal to make someone topdeck a card they gain?

It could only be used on other players for any junk, or when someone gains a card in their hand (Mine, Beggar, etc.), or when they buy Victory cards.  Not sure if it makes sense to also allow your own top decking as well.
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AJD

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2014, 10:56:33 am »
0

Hi, I don't know whether this has already come up here but I think this is an interesting general topic on card design. Self-Topdecking is a bit like Prince, just with a condition.

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

Are there any other effects that may be worth self-topdecking?
Which conditions make such effects more interesting/ even just possible?


The obvious missing one is "Walled Market", right? +1 Action, +1 Card, +1 Buy, topdeck this if you only buy one card?
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Kirian

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2014, 12:13:03 pm »
+1

Hi, I don't know whether this has already come up here but I think this is an interesting general topic on card design. Self-Topdecking is a bit like Prince, just with a condition.

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

Are there any other effects that may be worth self-topdecking?
Which conditions make such effects more interesting/ even just possible?


The obvious missing one is "Walled Market", right? +1 Action, +1 Card, +1 Buy, topdeck this if you only buy one card?

I submitted something similar at least twice to the design competitions.  It was never popular.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2014, 01:40:43 pm »
+3

Hi, I don't know whether this has already come up here but I think this is an interesting general topic on card design. Self-Topdecking is a bit like Prince, just with a condition.

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

Are there any other effects that may be worth self-topdecking?
Which conditions make such effects more interesting/ even just possible?


The obvious missing one is "Walled Market", right? +1 Action, +1 Card, +1 Buy, topdeck this if you only buy one card?

I submitted something similar at least twice to the design competitions.  It was never popular.

I vaguely recall championing one of these. I think it had a little bit that made it more interesting to me.

Right now, I think it might be more interesting to reverse the condition. You can top deck your walled markets only if you used every buy you had available. Or maybe make it contingent on buying at least 3 cards, which takes a little more work to set up and keep up.


Re: reaction to make opponents top deck, that can get political.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2014, 03:47:06 pm »
0

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

And Scheme! There's no condition to putting Scheme on your deck.
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AJD

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 03:55:38 pm »
0

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

And Scheme! There's no condition to putting Scheme on your deck.

Sure there is. You have to not use Scheme's ability to top-deck something else instead.
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market squire

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2014, 04:38:21 am »
0

The obvious missing one is "Walled Market", right? +1 Action, +1 Card, +1 Buy, topdeck this if you only buy one card?

I submitted something similar at least twice to the design competitions.  It was never popular.

I vaguely recall championing one of these. I think it had a little bit that made it more interesting to me.

Right now, I think it might be more interesting to reverse the condition. You can top deck your walled markets only if you used every buy you had available. Or maybe make it contingent on buying at least 3 cards, which takes a little more work to set up and keep up.

Okay, sounds nice, the obvious version would sound like this:

Merchant (Action) $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
____________________
When you discard this from play, if you don't have excess Buys, you may put this on top of your deck.

Sounds extremely powerful with Gardens or Goons.

Maybe it could even be combined with a Village?

Market Town (Action) $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
____________________
When you discard this from play, if you don't have excess Actions or Buys, you may put this on top of your deck.

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

And Scheme! There's no condition to putting Scheme on your deck.

Sure there is. You have to not use Scheme's ability to top-deck something else instead.

Good point. It's somehow related to Walled Village; you topdeck it if you didn't really use its bonus.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2014, 10:07:36 pm »
0

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

And Scheme! There's no condition to putting Scheme on your deck.

Sure there is. You have to not use Scheme's ability to top-deck something else instead.

Yes, by condition, I meant that sometimes you might not be able to do it, such as with the other examples listed. With Scheme, you can choose to do it every time if you want.
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AJD

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2014, 11:25:12 pm »
0

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

And Scheme! There's no condition to putting Scheme on your deck.

Sure there is. You have to not use Scheme's ability to top-deck something else instead.

Yes, by condition, I meant that sometimes you might not be able to do it, such as with the other examples listed. With Scheme, you can choose to do it every time if you want.

Well, with Walled Village, you can always choose not to play another Action card...
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qmech

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 04:01:45 am »
0

The official cards that may put themselves on top of the player's deck are Treasury, Alchemist, and Walled Village. So there is already one cantrip self-topdecking card for each of the simple Dominion atoms +$1, +1 Card, and +1 Action, paired with the conditions "buy no victory cards", "play a Potion", "no more than 2 Actions in play".

And Scheme! There's no condition to putting Scheme on your deck.

Sure there is. You have to not use Scheme's ability to top-deck something else instead.

Yes, by condition, I meant that sometimes you might not be able to do it, such as with the other examples listed. With Scheme, you can choose to do it every time if you want.

Well, with Walled Village, you can always choose not to play another Action card...

Not if you've already played two Actions this turn.
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silverspawn

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2014, 06:02:30 am »
+1

self-topdecking is cool, generally. something worth thinking about for sure. probably several ways to do this that haven't been done already. I'm not really a fan of any of the specific cards here, for completely different reasons. but the idea is cool.
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market squire

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2014, 09:09:13 am »
0

I am also not very content with most of these ideas.
The challenge is to find...
- an effect that is especially interesting to have each round (otherwise it could be a normal card)
- a condition that makes the self-topdecking not too easy but not too hard, and somehow matching to the effect

Foundation tries to be a classic Treasury/ Alchemist type card (although it lowers handsize), very hard to find something interesting like that.
Poet represents the idea of trading ressources (Card->VP), there could also be something like Card->Action or Card->Money (maybe Stash is doing enough here).

Here's another idea that trades Action->Throne and introduces the condition "pay for topdecking":

Prince's Room (Action) $6
+1 Card
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.
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silverspawn

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2014, 09:23:59 am »
0

Prince's Room (Action) $6
+1 Card
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.

that's pretty broken. did you compare it to prince?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2014, 09:28:17 am »
0

Prince's Room (Action) $6
+1 Card
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.

that's pretty broken. did you compare it to prince?

It's basically a Prince of Throne Rooms that you have to pay $1 to topdeck each turn. That might not be broken at $6.
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silverspawn

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2014, 09:34:10 am »
0

Prince's Room (Action) $6
+1 Card
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.

that's pretty broken. did you compare it to prince?

It's basically a Prince of Throne Rooms that you have to pay $1 to topdeck each turn. That might not be broken at $6.

pretty sure it is. prince has a phantom card, a phantom action, and a permanent scheme effect. this card has a phantom action, and a real +card, and becomes one of your action cards, doesn't have the scheme effect and makes you pay 1$. the bonus of a card is about 1$ (that would be peddler, this one is not restricted to <4$, so probably even more), so the fact that it becomes a card equals about the 1$ that you have to pay for it. so what's left is a prince for 6$ without the scheme effect. you're really likely to have a good target in a 5 card hand though. the flexibility might even be an advantage. okay, it's probably a little bit weaker than prince, but not enough to justify the price difference. 6$ and 8$ is a big gap, you can hit 6$ in t 3/4
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market squire

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2014, 10:31:48 am »
0

Prince's Room should cost $7. Even without self-topdecking: Tacking +1 Card on Throne Room is like an extra Lab.
Maybe it should cost $5 without +1 Card? But then it might be too similar to Throne...
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Holger

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2014, 10:58:16 am »
+1

Prince's Room should cost $7. Even without self-topdecking: Tacking +1 Card on Throne Room is like an extra Lab.
Maybe it should cost $5 without +1 Card? But then it might be too similar to Throne...

The extra +1 card is not quite an extra Lab because it's only "semi-terminal": If you draw (say) a cantrip with it, you have to decide between either throning it, or throning the best (often terminal) card in your hand and not playing the drawn card at all. With Lab+TR you have more flexibility, you could play the cantrip before throning the best card.

I think the card could work well at $5 (or possibly $6) if you remove either the extra card or the bottom line. As is, I would also try the card at $7...
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soulnet

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2014, 07:01:02 pm »
+1

I think PR-PR is too good. You draw 3 cards and then play 2 actions twice each. That is way better than lab. I would consider removing the topdecking: it is plenty more powerful than TR as it is. The problem with PR-PR being too good is that it is too safe to fill up your deck with PRs. That alone makes it way better than TR, especially in no-trashing games.

However, how can the prince's room be more powerful than the throne room?
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market squire

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2014, 05:46:50 am »
0

However, how can the prince's room be more powerful than the throne room?
Because I'm too excited about Prince. :)
You're right, it's not a good name choice.

I guess this would be the thing I want, as the card is all about the topdecking, but as already mentioned I don't like its similarity to Throne Room:

Palanquin (Action) $5
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.


Are there any other effects that may be worth self-topdecking?
Which conditions make such effects more interesting/ even just possible?

Any new thoughts?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2014, 09:28:53 am »
0

I think something like "Prince's Quarters" sounds better than "Prince's Room" :)
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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2014, 11:37:05 pm »
+5

I think something like "Prince's Quarters" sounds better than "Prince's Room" :)

Prince's Quarters
$5 - Action
+1 Action, +1 Card
If this is the fourth Prince's Quarters you've played this turn, trash the four Prince's Quarters and gain a Prince.

market squire

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 06:25:03 am »
+1

Night watchman (Action) $5
+3 Cards
If this is the first card you play this turn: +1 Action.
Otherwise, put this on top of your deck.

After some thought about this, i guess it is too strong. Basically, you can play a Village idiot engine by using 1-2 Night Watchmen. Abstractly spoken, Night watchman can turn "+1 Card +1 Action" on any card into "+3 Cards". This sounds way too strong with Cantrip Villages.

My new suggestion would be:

Night watchman (Action) $3
+2 Cards
If this is the first card you play this turn: +1 Action.
Otherwise, put this on top of your deck.


And instead of mocking with Prince, I would go with the "mobile Throne" theme:

Palanquin (Action) $7
+1 Card
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.
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silverspawn

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Re: Self-topdecking
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 06:33:20 am »
+1

Quote
Palanquin (Action) $7
+1 Card
You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it twice.
_______________________
When this is in play during your buy phase, you may pay $1. If you do, put this on top of your deck.

I like it. The only thing I'd change is to narrow the timing for the topdecking down to a specific point, probably "at the start of your buy phase"
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