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Author Topic: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (EgorK's Turn)  (Read 16612 times)

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Dsell

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Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (EgorK's Turn)
« on: July 06, 2014, 05:36:58 pm »

Game 1 Spreadsheet!

Game 2.

Apprentice is a game recently designed by me!

It's a resource collection game in which the actions you can take are determined by a moving/blocking game on a grid of tiles. The actions you can take grow stronger-and more expensive-the more times you use a certain building. The goal of the game is to get the most VP by creating potions and learning spells.

This game is still being playtested but I think what it needs at this point is refinement and balancing; overall I'm pleased with how the game is functioning on the whole. The game will be played by spreadsheet and either QT or PM (whichever you prefer) for the limited amount of hidden information. I haven't playtested with 4 players yet, I'm pretty sure it will work, but I'm gonna limit sign-ups to 3 for now. If there's enough interest, I could run a second game!

Sign-ups:
1. XerxesPraelor
2. EgorK
3. scott_pilgrim

The rules are attached. When you sign up, pick a color to use for the game. Let me know if there are any ambiguities in the rules or if you have any questions. If any of the players or observers have comments or suggestions for the game or the rules, please let me know. I won't require the players to give feedback but I'm very, very appreciative of any thoughts that you can offer. I won't make any changes during the game (ok, it's extremely extremely unlikely) but I definitely might make changes for future games.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 08:44:56 pm by Dsell »
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 05:37:05 pm »

Some things I'm looking for comments on:

General balance of the buildings, spells, and potions.

Feasibility of the Rapport and coin systems. Not too plentiful (unless you focus on them), not too scarce (unless you overuse them), just a nice balance. This seems ok in my experience but more data can't hurt.

Rules and presentation - specifically the balance of simplicity and specificity. There are cases where I'm not sure what to do, e.g. Laboratory: "Draw 1 Potion." vs. "Draw 1 card from the Potion Deck."

Flavor. A couple of the building names are essentially placeholders, a couple more are inside jokes. I added spell names recently and eventually I'd like to add names for each of the potions, too. Also, the Rapport system is not as thematic as I'd like, but I haven't really come up with anything better.

Game end. I don't love rounds as a measure of game length, although 24 rounds has coincidentally been a perfect length thus far. And I haven't thought of anything else that would work as a timer.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:50:03 pm by Dsell »
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 07:54:03 pm »

I'm /in as long as it doesn't start for a week

EDIT: I want lime green plz
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 08:03:53 pm »

question: how do fame cubes get on buildings?
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 08:45:59 pm »

question: how do fame cubes get on buildings?

At round end, you put a fame cube on the building you're on.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 07:30:40 am »

/in

Edit: brown, please
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 01:38:44 pm »

He he, cult of the newt.

Will we get the list of spell cards and potion cards? I'd like to play, but unfortunately no time any time soon.

About the witching room: what does "swap 2 buildings" mean? And "move any of your fame cubes" means any number of them, or only one of them?

The "X -> Y -> Z" notation is a bit confusing. I understand that you can only do "Y -> Z" once, correct?

One last thing that is probably irrelevant: buildings in the corners are naturally harder to access, have you taken that into consideration when designing their power level? I also see that eyes and leaves are next to each other and close to the wandshop, but newts are not, so I would guess (not knowing the potions or spells) that stuff involving newts will be stronger than stuff that doesn't?

I think you don't mention in the rules whether two players can occupy the same building, I assume they can?

Hope you find any of this useful!
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 01:59:32 pm »

One last thing that is probably irrelevant: buildings in the corners are naturally harder to access, have you taken that into consideration when designing their power level? I also see that eyes and leaves are next to each other and close to the wandshop, but newts are not, so I would guess (not knowing the potions or spells) that stuff involving newts will be stronger than stuff that doesn't?

I think the rules say the layout is random each game.


The rules don't say anything about how you learn spells, but I guess that happens at the Library.  Witching Room seems like it will create AP and my intuition says it's really weak (but since maybe you'll want to go there on the way to something else, you'll be forced to make the decision of how to use it, which I think will be a lot of thinking for a not very important decision), but I don't know, I could be way off on that.

Anyway, looks really interesting!
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 02:01:40 pm »

/in
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 03:21:41 pm »

Thanks so much for your insights!

Will we get the list of spell cards and potion cards? I'd like to play, but unfortunately no time any time soon.

The potion deck is on the last page of the master spreadsheet. The available spells are on the player boards, which are also on the spreadsheet. Currently, there are 9 spells and they are static in each game. Probably I'd like to make it modular so that the spells are in three decks of cards (red, yellow, and green, based on their strength) and you would get a random set of spells available to you each game. Or possibly each player would get the same random set. Not sure yet, but for the moment everyone gets the same 9.

Quote
About the witching room: what does "swap 2 buildings" mean? And "move any of your fame cubes" means any number of them, or only one of them?

This is an economy of space thing. To be perfectly clear I would say "Swap the location of 2 building tiles" and "Move any number of your fame cubes from 1 building to another" (which is what it says in my physical copy). This wording is so that it would fit onto six lines on the spreadsheet. I was hoping it would get the idea across but I could do a smaller font for that if it's not clear enough.

Quote
The "X -> Y -> Z" notation is a bit confusing. I understand that you can only do "Y -> Z" once, correct?

Ah, I see how this notation could be confusing, and I don't really explain it in the rules. In this case X and Y are the costs in Rapport and coins, respectively. Z, the rightmost text on each building, is the effect of the action of that building. X, the leftmost number, is the number of fame cubes currently on the building. That number represents how many Rapport you must spend to use that building and indicates what the effect (Z) of the building will be. Y is in there sometimes to indicate an additional cost.

Quote
One last thing that is probably irrelevant: buildings in the corners are naturally harder to access, have you taken that into consideration when designing their power level? I also see that eyes and leaves are next to each other and close to the wandshop, but newts are not, so I would guess (not knowing the potions or spells) that stuff involving newts will be stronger than stuff that doesn't?

Scott_Pilgrim was right, buildings are randomized. This definitely changes the way you play the game each time, but the witching room is always there to move things around. Each of the different resources is equally represented in the potion deck and in the costs for learning spells.

Quote
I think you don't mention in the rules whether two players can occupy the same building, I assume they can?

That's an oversight if I didn't mention it. I thought I mentioned that movement had to be onto an unoccupied building? Anyway, 2 players cannot occupy the same building unless the second player to enter the building has learned Invisibility, which allows them to move onto occupied buildings.

The rules don't say anything about how you learn spells, but I guess that happens at the Library.

Correct. Since they're a big part of each player's player board, probably they should get special mention in the rules. But yes, they are affiliated with the Library as well as a certain potion.

Quote
Witching Room seems like it will create AP and my intuition says it's really weak (but since maybe you'll want to go there on the way to something else, you'll be forced to make the decision of how to use it, which I think will be a lot of thinking for a not very important decision), but I don't know, I could be way off on that.

Witching Room I'm not totally sure on. As far as swapping buildings, I feel like that could be a really powerful ability in the hands of a skilled player, but I'm simply not good enough at my own game yet for it to be amazing. However, I have definitely put it to good use. In my experience, moving fame cubes is very nice. There are several potions that it helps and it has some other utility that will likely come out during the game as well.

However, I'm not sure about the overall power level of that building yet, it's definitely one of the trickier ones to balance. And you may be right about AP. The players I've tested it with aren't very prone to AP (I'm probably the worst of them) so I'd like to see how other people react to those decisions.

Thanks again! And Scott, are you wanting to play? If so, I could move mail-mi over to a second game since he can't start for a week anyway.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 03:42:24 pm »

Thanks again! And Scott, are you wanting to play? If so, I could move mail-mi over to a second game since he can't start for a week anyway.

Sure, I didn't want to take the last spot but if there's enough interest for a second game I'll play.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 03:52:45 pm »

Thanks again! And Scott, are you wanting to play? If so, I could move mail-mi over to a second game since he can't start for a week anyway.

Sure, I didn't want to take the last spot but if there's enough interest for a second game I'll play.

I'll open up another thread and put you in here! In person, this game is not very long, around 30 minutes for 3 players. So it shouldn't be terribly long on the forum. Mail-mi can catch the next game whether it's simultaneous or starts after this one finishes. Hope that's ok, mail-mi!

Scott and EgorK, color preferences? And would it be easier to have your potions dealt to you via PM or quicktopic? QT is probably easier to keep track of, but if you're not already checking for mafia games you may overlook it. So I'll leave it up to each of you individually. I'll get the spreadsheet for this game set up!
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2014, 03:55:50 pm »

Green for me (assuming mail-mi's out, otherwise purple), and I prefer PM.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2014, 06:04:44 pm »

Spreadsheet for Game 1.

I'll edit this into the first post.

Starting player order randomly determined to be: scott_pilgrim, XerxesPraelor, EgorK.

Scott gets $4, Xerxes gets $6, EgorK gets $8.

I'll send your 2 initial potions via PM in a moment. Let me know if you would rather have a personal QT and I'll set one up.

After you've received your potions, scott, you may announce where you'd like to start, followed by Xerxes, followed by EgorK.

EgorK, let me know what color you want. I have you as black at the moment but I'm happy to change it.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 06:21:31 pm »

I'll start at Cult of the Newt.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2014, 06:27:44 pm »

EgorK, let me know what color you want. I have you as black at the moment but I'm happy to change it.

Black is ok
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 06:57:23 pm »

A couple more comments, then I'll let you enjoy the game in peace (they are mostly asking for clarifications) :):

-Flavour (obviously YMMV): just some ideas, do whatever you want with them.
   Other possible words for rapport would be esteem, favor, rep... Obviously the final name might affect the name of the graveyard. For the spells, I prefer swiftness to quickness, either owl's wisdom or omniscience to telepathy, summon imps to summon minions, and dimension door to portals. For buildings, if you don't mind borrowing IPs, I prefer floo network (EDITS: or flush network, or loo network, but only the Brits will get the second one) to teleport taxi; if you want to go all the way to the zany, I would change Library -> University Pub, and Greenhouse -> Bookshop, "More bang for your buck (TM)" -> "Parents' house" :P

-presentation: you might want to put a "..." in the following line after "2 -> ..." for those buildings that have rising advantages after 2, to distinguish them from those that have flat advantages but rising costs.

-Potions: the cost of the last one, is it X ingredients of any kind, X ingredients of any one kind, X ingredients of each kind...? Also, there's one 2 leaves + 2 eyes potion, but no 2 newts + 2 leaves or 2 newts + 2 eyes potion, is it intentional? Everything else is symmetric. Finally, the 2 newts + 2 leaves + 1 eye potion doesn't specify whether you have to pay the cost of the spell in ressources or not.
-Does the total number of potions change with the number of players?

-Witching room: I assume that swapping two buildings also moves players around, correct? Off-topic, but have you tried it IRL? Seems very fiddly, with all those fame cubes lying around.

-Can you use the teleport taxi to stay in the building you started in? If not, you should specify it in the rules. Also, does the teleport taxi count for the 10 VP potion, and/or the 2 eyes +1 newt potion?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 01:55:45 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2014, 07:07:11 pm »

Pacovf, I'll respond to everything soon, but one of your comments made me realize that I made a mistake when copying the potion deck from one doc to another.

Part of the Potion deck was missing from the spreadsheets. This was my mistake and I'm dumb for not catching it sooner. It failed to show a fairly significant chunk of the deck, 13 cards.

Therefore, I think the best solution is for me to re-deal starting potions and let scott choose a new starting location (if he wishes). I apologize and I'll work on updating the spreadsheets and re-sending potions as fast as possible.

Sorry everybody.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2014, 07:44:47 pm »

Yay I'm helping (to delay the game)!  ;D
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2014, 07:53:34 pm »

I'll still start at Cult of the Newt.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2014, 07:57:48 pm »

A couple more comments, then I'll let you enjoy the game in peace (they are mostly asking for clarifications) :):

-Flavour (obviously YMMV): just some ideas, do whatever you want with them.
   Other possible words for rapport would be esteem, favor, rep... Obviously the final name might affect the name of the graveyard. For the spells, I prefer swiftness to quickness, either owl's wisdom or omniscience to telepathy, summon imps to summon minions, and dimension door to portals. For buildings, if you don't mind borrowing IPs, I prefer floo network to teleport taxi; if you want to go all the way to the zany, I would change Library -> University Pub, and Greenhouse -> Bookshop, "More bang for your buck (TM)" -> "Parents' house" :P

These are really good suggestions! I especially like "Favor" for Rapport, like why did I not think of that. Swiftness is excellent too, Quickness was really just a placeholder until I could think of something better (I added names to the spells just for the spreadsheet, the physical player sheets have no names at the moment). I'm going to discuss these names with my RL playtest group and we'll see what sticks. Thanks!

Quote
-presentation: you might want to put a "..." in the following line after "2 -> ..." for those buildings that have rising advantages after 2, to distinguish them from those that have flat advantages but rising costs.

Yes! Thanks. I had meant to do this when setting up the spreadsheet but simply forgot. Anything under the formula lines is just an example.

Quote
-Potions: the cost of the last one, is it X ingredients of any kind, X ingredients of any one kind, X ingredients of each kind...?

X ingredients of any kind. X is meant to indicate you can use any number of resources (including 0) in any combination. Perhaps that needs clarification, but it's already the wordiest potion. I'm not sure what the best solution is and I'm open to suggestions.

The potion deck stuff I already covered, thanks again for that.

Quote
-Does the total number of potions change with the number of players?

No. I don't expect that anyone will go through the whole potion deck, even in a potion-heavy 4 player game (though it may be possible). If this ever seems like an issue I may change it. At one point, the end of the game was going to trigger on potions being gone, but I wanted strategies that don't involve potions (or, not many potions) to be viable as well.

Quote
-Witching room: I assume that swapping two buildings also moves players around, correct? Off-topic, but have you tried it IRL? Seems very fiddly, with all those fame cubes lying around.

Your assumption is correct. I have done it IRL and it hasn't been an issue thus far, though admittedly we haven't had to move 2 super full tiles yet, and my "tiles" are actually 3x5 inch notecards that usually have plenty of space for the Fame Cubes. If the RL tiles were ever made smaller I may want to look into changing Fame Cubes into small tokens or something more stackable. It might be harder to see at a glance but may solve some space issues.

Quote
-Can you use the teleport taxi to stay in the building you started in? If not, you should specify it in the rules. Also, does the teleport taxi count for the 10 VP potion, and/or the 2 eyes +1 newt potion?

No and no. You're right that I should put it in the rules. The Taxi acts like other buildings, but does not count as a building for the purposes of potions, etc.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2014, 08:22:23 pm »

Quote
-Potions: the cost of the last one, is it X ingredients of any kind, X ingredients of any one kind, X ingredients of each kind...?

X ingredients of any kind. X is meant to indicate you can use any number of resources (including 0) in any combination. Perhaps that needs clarification, but it's already the wordiest potion. I'm not sure what the best solution is and I'm open to suggestions.

X RSC as its cost, obviously :P

You still don't specify whether the 2 newts + 2 leaves + 1 eye potion gets you a spell for free or not, though.

Ok, ok, now I stop bothering you people so that you can start having fun :)
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2014, 08:40:58 pm »

Quote
-Potions: the cost of the last one, is it X ingredients of any kind, X ingredients of any one kind, X ingredients of each kind...?

X ingredients of any kind. X is meant to indicate you can use any number of resources (including 0) in any combination. Perhaps that needs clarification, but it's already the wordiest potion. I'm not sure what the best solution is and I'm open to suggestions.

X RSC as its cost, obviously :P

That's actually a really good idea. I hope it would be clear enough. It's always easy for me to know what I mean, you know, but it's a lot harder to tell whether it's perfectly clear to everyone else. :P

Quote
You still don't specify whether the 2 newts + 2 leaves + 1 eye potion gets you a spell for free or not, though.

Oops, totally missed this question. It looks like I had made a transcription error somewhere, because the physical cards have "ignoring the RSC cost" clauses and that is indeed what I meant. I fixed it on all of the spreadsheets, although that potion now has the distinction of being the wordiest. Maybe I can consolidate both "ignoring the RSC cost" clauses into one at the end of the card.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2014, 05:08:18 am »

So, you get Rapport automatically, Money from some buildings, and Resources from some buildings and Rapport and Money. I'll start at the Emporium.
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Re: Apprentice 1: The Sorcerer's Interns (Playtesting)
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2014, 08:27:34 am »

Greenhouse
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