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Author Topic: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat's (jotheonah wins!)  (Read 31585 times)

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Dsell

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Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat's (jotheonah wins!)
« on: July 07, 2014, 04:05:41 pm »

Game 2 Spreadsheet

Apprentice is a game recently designed by me!

It's a resource collection game in which the actions you can take are determined by a moving/blocking game on a grid of tiles. The actions you can take grow stronger-and more expensive-the more times you use a certain building. The goal of the game is to get the most VP by creating potions and learning spells.

This game is still being playtested but I think what it needs at this point is refinement and balancing; overall I'm pleased with how the game is functioning on the whole. The game will be played by spreadsheet and either QT or PM (whichever you prefer) for the limited amount of hidden information. I haven't playtested with 4 players yet, I'm pretty sure it will work, but I'm gonna limit sign-ups to 3 for now.

Sign-ups:
1. mail-mi
2. Jotheonah
3. Ashersky

The rules are attached. When you sign up, pick a color to use for the game. Let me know if there are any ambiguities in the rules or if you have any questions. If any of the players or observers have comments or suggestions for the game or the rules, please let me know. I won't require the players to give feedback but I'm very, very appreciative of any thoughts that you can offer. I won't make any changes during the game (ok, it's extremely extremely unlikely) but I definitely might make changes for future games.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 12:59:11 am by Dsell »
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 04:05:52 pm »

Some things I'm looking for comments on:

General balance of the buildings, spells, and potions.

Feasibility of the Rapport and coin systems. Not too plentiful (unless you focus on them), not too scarce (unless you overuse them), just a nice balance. This seems ok in my experience but more data can't hurt.

Rules and presentation - specifically the balance of simplicity and specificity. There are cases where I'm not sure what to do, e.g. Laboratory: "Draw 1 Potion." vs. "Draw 1 card from the Potion Deck."

Flavor. A couple of the building names are essentially placeholders, a couple more are inside jokes. I added spell names recently and eventually I'd like to add names for each of the potions, too. Also, the Rapport system is not as thematic as I'd like, but I haven't really come up with anything better.

Game end. I don't love rounds as a measure of game length, although 24 rounds has coincidentally been a perfect length thus far. And I haven't thought of anything else that would work as a timer.
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Just one more thing I can comment on without actually playing the game (sorry for the spam):

Game end. I don't love rounds as a measure of game length, although 24 rounds has coincidentally been a perfect length thus far. And I haven't thought of anything else that would work as a timer.

Some random musings: you can have more than one trigger for the endgame. One player learning X spells, brewing Y potions or reaching Z points could end the game at the end of the turn, for example.

If you want to make the round limit a bit more flexible, you could instead end the game at the end of a round where one player runs out of fame tokens (and have everyone start with 25-30 tokens or whatever). It would mostly be the same than a round limit, because usually you only play one fame token per turn, but using the teleport taxi uses an extra one, so heavy use of the taxi gets you some control over when the game ends (if a player only has 2 fame tokens left, he can use the taxi to end the game without an extra round). Might or might not be a good idea, but at least you don't have to keep track of the number of rounds on a different sheet of paper.
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Instead of a piece of paper for rounds, make a circle thing, like the spinner for Twister.  Split the pie into 24 (or however many) slices.  Turn the pointer one slice every round.

It'd be fairly easy to make with some cardboard and crafts stuff from a craft store.
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Instead of a piece of paper for rounds, make a circle thing, like the spinner for Twister.  Split the pie into 24 (or however many) slices.  Turn the pointer one slice every round.

It'd be fairly easy to make with some cardboard and crafts stuff from a craft store.

That's a good idea! During the first game, Fame Cubes and Rapport were done after each turn rather than at the end of the round, and it was really hard (for me) to remember to indicate that a round had happened.

Just one more thing I can comment on without actually playing the game (sorry for the spam):

Game end. I don't love rounds as a measure of game length, although 24 rounds has coincidentally been a perfect length thus far. And I haven't thought of anything else that would work as a timer.

Some random musings: you can have more than one trigger for the endgame. One player learning X spells, brewing Y potions or reaching Z points could end the game at the end of the turn, for example.

If you want to make the round limit a bit more flexible, you could instead end the game at the end of a round where one player runs out of fame tokens (and have everyone start with 25-30 tokens or whatever). It would mostly be the same than a round limit, because usually you only play one fame token per turn, but using the teleport taxi uses an extra one, so heavy use of the taxi gets you some control over when the game ends (if a player only has 2 fame tokens left, he can use the taxi to end the game without an extra round). Might or might not be a good idea, but at least you don't have to keep track of the number of rounds on a different sheet of paper.

Not spam at all! I really, really appreciate the feedback, and the game will be better for it. I think I will try limiting the number of fame cubes for one of our RL games. Maybe try 28. If that works, that puts an excellent timer on the game that's adjustable for different numbers.

Potions or Spells may work, but I'm not sure I can envision that working as well as 24 rounds (or 26-30 fame cubes), because that has been a really excellent length thus far.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 03:39:05 pm »



Rules and presentation - specifically the balance of simplicity and specificity. There are cases where I'm not sure what to do, e.g. Laboratory: "Draw 1 Potion." vs. "Draw 1 card from the Potion Deck."
.

If you have space, definitely the second one. Allows for you to put things other than Potions in the potion deck. Or lets you have everything in there not named Potion.
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I could do a playtest.
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once you learn a spell, can you cast it at any time? Can you brew potions multiple times?
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Potions or Spells may work, but I'm not sure I can envision that working as well as 24 rounds (or 26-30 fame cubes), because that has been a really excellent length thus far.

I don't particularly care for spell/potion end conditions from a purely theoretic point of view, but I mentioned them because, as the players get better, they will achieve more and more in a set amount of turns, which means that the last turns might become a bit degenerate if 24 rounds end up being too many. Ending the game after a player has learnt and/or brewed X spells and/or potions, independently of the number of rounds left, avoids that particular issue.

Something to keep in mind as the game gets more playtested.
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I could do a playtest.

Awesome! Color preference? And PMs or a QT for your potions?

once you learn a spell, can you cast it at any time? Can you brew potions multiple times?

Spells are learned just once and at that point you simply do what the text on the spell says. Some spells have an immediate effect (Gain $5), whereas some others have a persistent effect (You may move diagonally; whenever you draw from the potion deck, look at one more card). The spells can all be seen on sheets 2-4 of the master spreadsheet.

Potions are much the same. Each potion is inactive until it's created and is created just once. At the end of your turn you may pay the RSC cost to create the potion and activate the potion's text. Some potions have an immediate effect (Gain 2 Leaves; All  other players lose one Rapport) that take place once, whereas some provide variable amounts of VP, which are calculated at the end of the game.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 04:43:41 pm »



Rules and presentation - specifically the balance of simplicity and specificity. There are cases where I'm not sure what to do, e.g. Laboratory: "Draw 1 Potion." vs. "Draw 1 card from the Potion Deck."
.

If you have space, definitely the second one. Allows for you to put things other than Potions in the potion deck. Or lets you have everything in there not named Potion.

Ok. I'll see what I can do to make the spacing work on the spreadsheet. On a notecard it's no big deal, I'd just prefer not to use size 8 font if possible.

It's an interesting idea to put not-potions in the potion deck. There are already a lot of different effects running around the game between potions and spells, but, something to consider.

Potions or Spells may work, but I'm not sure I can envision that working as well as 24 rounds (or 26-30 fame cubes), because that has been a really excellent length thus far.

I don't particularly care for spell/potion end conditions from a purely theoretic point of view, but I mentioned them because, as the players get better, they will achieve more and more in a set amount of turns, which means that the last turns might become a bit degenerate if 24 rounds end up being too many. Ending the game after a player has learnt and/or brewed X spells and/or potions, independently of the number of rounds left, avoids that particular issue.

Something to keep in mind as the game gets more playtested.

That's a good point. I am hoping that the Rapport/Fame Cube system will keep things from getting too degenerate since the really big actions are very Rapport-expensive, but who knows at this point.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 04:54:11 pm »

I could do a playtest.

Awesome! Color preference? And PMs or a QT for your potions?


Blue, I guess. And PMs.

Quote
once you learn a spell, can you cast it at any time? Can you brew potions multiple times?

Spells are learned just once and at that point you simply do what the text on the spell says. Some spells have an immediate effect (Gain $5), whereas some others have a persistent effect (You may move diagonally; whenever you draw from the potion deck, look at one more card). The spells can all be seen on sheets 2-4 of the master spreadsheet.

Potions are much the same. Each potion is inactive until it's created and is created just once. At the end of your turn you may pay the RSC cost to create the potion and activate the potion's text. Some potions have an immediate effect (Gain 2 Leaves; All  other players lose one Rapport) that take place once, whereas some provide variable amounts of VP, which are calculated at the end of the game.

At least with spells, that might be a little bit of a flavor fail. Intuitively, it seems like learning a spell should let you cast it later, rather than it being a one time action that creates the spell's effect.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 05:10:35 pm »

Quote
once you learn a spell, can you cast it at any time? Can you brew potions multiple times?

Spells are learned just once and at that point you simply do what the text on the spell says. Some spells have an immediate effect (Gain $5), whereas some others have a persistent effect (You may move diagonally; whenever you draw from the potion deck, look at one more card). The spells can all be seen on sheets 2-4 of the master spreadsheet.

Potions are much the same. Each potion is inactive until it's created and is created just once. At the end of your turn you may pay the RSC cost to create the potion and activate the potion's text. Some potions have an immediate effect (Gain 2 Leaves; All  other players lose one Rapport) that take place once, whereas some provide variable amounts of VP, which are calculated at the end of the game.

At least with spells, that might be a little bit of a flavor fail. Intuitively, it seems like learning a spell should let you cast it later, rather than it being a one time action that creates the spell's effect.

Well, more than half the spells are a permanent bonus for the remainder of the game.

How I'd envisioned it is that the old Sorcerer has given you 24 hours to go out and do these tasks and has made you drink some sort of potion so you don't have to sleep (let's be real, it's a Four Loko) while you run around visiting all these shops. At the library, you've got maybe an hour so you study real hard. At the end of an hour, you're ready to try your spell and - voila! the lump of lead that was part of the my-first-spell kit is now five shiny gold coins. Or, wow! you're invisible now! That'll be great for sneakin'. When you're in a mad dash for the graveyard you're not so much thinking about re-doing the spell from a few hours back, man, you don't even have your spellbook. Plus, it's better not to try the patience of whoever's in charge of the realm you summoned those imps from.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 05:18:08 pm »

I think a timer for turns could add to the frantic-ness you are seeking flavor-wise.

Maybe a spell that introduces a minute-glass?
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 05:24:26 pm »

I think a timer for turns could add to the frantic-ness you are seeking flavor-wise.

Maybe a spell that introduces a minute-glass?

This is a neat idea but becomes downright cruel at the end. Apprentice crescendoes HARD: the first few rounds are simple and rote, but the last few can become very brain-burning. I've spent way more than a minute considering options for those last few rounds. Limiting it to a minute or even 90 seconds would definitely take some of the enjoyment out of it for people like me who like to puzzle over the optimized solution.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 05:27:23 pm »

I think a timer for turns could add to the frantic-ness you are seeking flavor-wise.

Maybe a spell that introduces a minute-glass?

This is a neat idea but becomes downright cruel at the end. Apprentice crescendoes HARD: the first few rounds are simple and rote, but the last few can become very brain-burning. I've spent way more than a minute considering options for those last few rounds. Limiting it to a minute or even 90 seconds would definitely take some of the enjoyment out of it for people like me who like to puzzle over the optimized solution.

I really like the "I only have 24 hours to do this!" thing.  Maybe a spell that affects everyone's next turn only.  It's a drawback for yourself, too, so maybe has a bonus for learning it.

Just an idea.  I can be your third play tester.

Maroon/QT.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 05:54:48 pm »

Woohoo Ashersky! We'll get this up and running as soon as mail-mi's available.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2014, 01:32:46 pm »

Quote
once you learn a spell, can you cast it at any time? Can you brew potions multiple times?

Spells are learned just once and at that point you simply do what the text on the spell says. Some spells have an immediate effect (Gain $5), whereas some others have a persistent effect (You may move diagonally; whenever you draw from the potion deck, look at one more card). The spells can all be seen on sheets 2-4 of the master spreadsheet.

Potions are much the same. Each potion is inactive until it's created and is created just once. At the end of your turn you may pay the RSC cost to create the potion and activate the potion's text. Some potions have an immediate effect (Gain 2 Leaves; All  other players lose one Rapport) that take place once, whereas some provide variable amounts of VP, which are calculated at the end of the game.

At least with spells, that might be a little bit of a flavor fail. Intuitively, it seems like learning a spell should let you cast it later, rather than it being a one time action that creates the spell's effect.

Well, more than half the spells are a permanent bonus for the remainder of the game.

How I'd envisioned it is that the old Sorcerer has given you 24 hours to go out and do these tasks and has made you drink some sort of potion so you don't have to sleep (let's be real, it's a Four Loko) while you run around visiting all these shops. At the library, you've got maybe an hour so you study real hard. At the end of an hour, you're ready to try your spell and - voila! the lump of lead that was part of the my-first-spell kit is now five shiny gold coins. Or, wow! you're invisible now! That'll be great for sneakin'. When you're in a mad dash for the graveyard you're not so much thinking about re-doing the spell from a few hours back, man, you don't even have your spellbook. Plus, it's better not to try the patience of whoever's in charge of the realm you summoned those imps from.

I like 24 rounds a lot better now that I know a round = an hour. That actually makes it go from a wtfrandom number to a very easy-to-remember intuitive number. In the printed version, you could track it on a spinner that looks like a clock.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting) (Sign-ups open!)
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2014, 02:05:51 pm »

Quote
once you learn a spell, can you cast it at any time? Can you brew potions multiple times?

Spells are learned just once and at that point you simply do what the text on the spell says. Some spells have an immediate effect (Gain $5), whereas some others have a persistent effect (You may move diagonally; whenever you draw from the potion deck, look at one more card). The spells can all be seen on sheets 2-4 of the master spreadsheet.

Potions are much the same. Each potion is inactive until it's created and is created just once. At the end of your turn you may pay the RSC cost to create the potion and activate the potion's text. Some potions have an immediate effect (Gain 2 Leaves; All  other players lose one Rapport) that take place once, whereas some provide variable amounts of VP, which are calculated at the end of the game.

At least with spells, that might be a little bit of a flavor fail. Intuitively, it seems like learning a spell should let you cast it later, rather than it being a one time action that creates the spell's effect.

Well, more than half the spells are a permanent bonus for the remainder of the game.

How I'd envisioned it is that the old Sorcerer has given you 24 hours to go out and do these tasks and has made you drink some sort of potion so you don't have to sleep (let's be real, it's a Four Loko) while you run around visiting all these shops. At the library, you've got maybe an hour so you study real hard. At the end of an hour, you're ready to try your spell and - voila! the lump of lead that was part of the my-first-spell kit is now five shiny gold coins. Or, wow! you're invisible now! That'll be great for sneakin'. When you're in a mad dash for the graveyard you're not so much thinking about re-doing the spell from a few hours back, man, you don't even have your spellbook. Plus, it's better not to try the patience of whoever's in charge of the realm you summoned those imps from.

I like 24 rounds a lot better now that I know a round = an hour. That actually makes it go from a wtfrandom number to a very easy-to-remember intuitive number. In the printed version, you could track it on a spinner that looks like a clock.

I love the idea of a clock if it stays at 24 rounds. Yeah, the 24 just started as a very easy number that fit in with the flavor I had in mind for the game, but it has worked out really perfectly so far. I had initially thought it would just be the end condition until I could figure something better out, and that may still be the case, but I also think I may have been too biased against a fixed end-game condition. It seems to create tension when everyone knows how exactly how much time they have left.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2014, 03:07:35 pm »

/tag! This game looks really fun, Dsell!
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2014, 03:39:19 pm »

/tag! This game looks really fun, Dsell!

Thanks! Hope you can get in on the next game I run, assuming there's enough interest.
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2014, 11:54:37 pm »

Game 2 Spreadsheet

Starting potions going out soon, and then it will be jotheonah up to pick a starting location.

Edit: mail-mi, I'll send your starting potions by PM but if you would rather have a QT to keep track of potions just let me know!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 11:55:43 pm by Dsell »
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2014, 11:55:05 pm »

hehehehehe
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2014, 12:57:32 am »

Potions sent, game is on!

Jotheonah is up first to pick a location, followed by mail-mi, and then finally Ashersky.

After initial placements Round 1 will happen, which is simply using the buildings you're on. I'll automate the ones that don't require a choice; let me know what your choice is for the ones that do. From Round 2 on, you'll move and then use the building, telling me your choice if necessary.

Also, Ash, could you move this to the non-mafia forum games thread?
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Re: Apprentice 2: Quest for the Pointy Hat (Playtesting)
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2014, 03:14:47 am »

Moved, can't really work on this until Sunday forum time, though.
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