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[AndrewisFTTW]

Code: [Select]

Secret Chamber, University, Ambassador, Familiar, Ironmonger, Apprentice, Ghost Ship, Bank, King's Court, Peddler

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140522/log.516ddc20e4b082c74d7cbc04.1400742156995.txt

First one to collide King's Court with Ambassador wins and that sure wasn't me.

[SCSN]

You lost the game long before that. Return two coppers rather than 1 or an Estate on each of T5, 6 and 7. Your immediate objective is to win the Ambassador war and a passive Amb strategy isn't going to do that. KC is an important card but it won't really decide the game, it just seals the deal for whoever is already ahead.

[shark_bait]

I stopped reading the log at around T7/8 but the point was made.  You should be returning as many cards as possible with ambassador.  Even if it means not buying something on that turn.  Your opponent did that, got a trimmer deck, and subsequently won. 

He didn't win because he hit KC/Ambassador first, he won because he prioritized trimming his deck.

Edit... and I get ninja'd by SCSN... oh well, this will just emphasize the point.

[markusin]

In general Ambassador and Ghost Ship on the same board with a source of + actions is a recipe for a soul crushing game.

And yeah, be sure to return 2 cards at a time with Amb. Otherwise, you'll lose the Amb war long before KC is even gained

[AndrewisFTTW]

So returning 2 coppers is better than returning 1 estate. Got it, lesson learned.

EDIT: And returning 2 coppers even if I can't buy anything.

[TheMirrorMan]

Yes, now, don't overdo it either. Throw back whatever you have 2 from (2 estates > 2 coppers > 1 estate). Don't throw away all your economy though

[soulnet]

So returning 2 coppers is better than returning 1 estate. Got it, lesson learned.

EDIT: And returning 2 coppers even if I can't buy anything.

The idea that convinced me to starting doing that is: You eventually want to return those 2 coppers. Doing so now makes it more likely to return 2 Estates next time. Increasing Estate density is, up to some extent, a good thing, as long as you do not stop making progress.

[Robz888]

Yeah, you definitely hurt yourself on that Turn 5. You can return 2 Coppers and have enough for Secret Chamber anyway. I think you want the Chamber here. It's going to do a lot of good work for you, smoothing out Ambassador collision and letting your Ironmongers hit what you want reliably.

[LastFootnote]

So returning 2 coppers is better than returning 1 estate. Got it, lesson learned.

EDIT: And returning 2 coppers even if I can't buy anything.

As a counterpoint, I believe it is sometimes worth saving money in your hand rather than returning more cards if your opponent isn't using Ambassador himself. That doesn't apply to this game, but sometimes it does. I have occasionally been beaten by an opponent who ignored Ambassador, bought a bunch of $5 and $6 cards early on, and trimmed using some other method. I might have won those games had I not let myself get so far behind in economy.

As always, it depends on the board (and what your opponent is doing).

[JacquesTheBard]

I concur with most of the board on the subject of Ambassador use. I'm glad you found this game fun to read about. However, one other note strikes me when I read the log: how to make the best of a lost ambassador war. Your opponent's play, though good (the secret chamber reaction with ironmonger was brilliant) seemed to make errors with pile control. Peddlers, secret chambers, and ironmongers were dangerously low, and although you connecting KC-Ambassador to empty the piles was unlikely given the junk in your deck, it was still certainly possible. You had a point lead, in spite of the bad situation. Never forget that ambassador can be used to empty piles.

[Kirian]

In Soviet Russia, sometimes Dom... no, wait, never mind.

[AndrewisFTTW]

More misadventures with ambassador. I know I should've bought candlestick maker on T3 but that's probably not huge. For some reason nothing seemed to work for me.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.516ddc20e4b082c74d7cbc04.1400882096430.txt

[KingZog3]

More misadventures with ambassador. I know I should've bought candlestick maker on T3 but that's probably not huge. For some reason nothing seemed to work for me.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.516ddc20e4b082c74d7cbc04.1400882096430.txt

Turn 17 draw is terrible, but at the same time, why do you have 2 potions?

[AndrewisFTTW]

More misadventures with ambassador. I know I should've bought candlestick maker on T3 but that's probably not huge. For some reason nothing seemed to work for me.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.516ddc20e4b082c74d7cbc04.1400882096430.txt

Turn 17 draw is terrible, but at the same time, why do you have 2 potions?

I don't know, I can't find where I picked up the second one. Maybe I thought scrying pools and apothecaries were super important or something.

EDIT: There are no apothecaries, I'm thinking of a different game. Maybe I was passed it at some point? I can't find it.

[-Stef-]

More misadventures with ambassador. I know I should've bought candlestick maker on T3 but that's probably not huge. For some reason nothing seemed to work for me.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.516ddc20e4b082c74d7cbc04.1400882096430.txt

Turn 17 draw is terrible, but at the same time, why do you have 2 potions?

I don't know, I can't find where I picked up the second one. Maybe I thought scrying pools and apothecaries were super important or something.

EDIT: There are no apothecaries, I'm thinking of a different game. Maybe I was passed it at some point? I can't find it.

Hi AndrewisFTTW,

Don't worry too much about it - Ambassador games can be very tricky. Small mistakes can result in horrible losses and even no mistakes at all can do that.
In this game there's still room for improvement though.

First of all - ask yourself what the impact of the rest of the kingdom is on the ambassador war. Important notions here are the scrying pool, the village for $6 (super expensive) and the to a lesser extend the destruction of the knights.

You both decide to open potion for the pools here. Usually in amb games that's very good, here I'd say it's still ok but not that clear at all. You have no cards at $2, $3 or $4 that can draw you another card. So you get no immediate advantage from the pools (other then the spy attack) Opening double ambassador here is quite reasonable.

Now that you did decide to go potion, you should indeed take candlestick maker over Silver. Even more important is turn 5 - With Ambassador, Estate, Potion, 2xCopper you should return the estate and take another pool. I know you've been advised to return 2 cards whenever possible, and that usually ok, but not with a card as important as scrying pool. (it's not even close).

The 3rd and probably most important thing here, is that your opponent gets a second card that thins while you don't. He plays with Doctor+Ambassador against your lonely Ambassador. I actually think I'd rather get a second Ambassador instead of a Doctor, but getting a second card that thins is (here, and almost always) very important.

[luser]

More misadventures with ambassador. I know I should've bought candlestick maker on T3 but that's probably not huge. For some reason nothing seemed to work for me.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.516ddc20e4b082c74d7cbc04.1400882096430.txt

Turn 17 draw is terrible, but at the same time, why do you have 2 potions?

Probably ambassadored, I remember a game we both played a scrying pool/ambassador/kc engine but I ended with 16 potions in deck.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Thanks Stef, that definitely clears some stuff up!