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shark_bait

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Never Give Up
« on: May 12, 2014, 04:11:17 pm »
+9

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140512/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1399916815699.txt



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Stonemason, Fortune Teller, Menagerie, Monument, Navigator, Procession, Tournament, Band of Misfits, Graverobber, Margrave

Just played this super interesting game against Temron.  If you ever get a chance to play him I highly recommend it as he is a very gracious and fun opponent.  So going into this Kingdom he says to me, "Alright, lesson time."  I'm looking at this kingdom and thinking just how complicated this board is thinking of how many ways it can be misplayed.  As you'll see, I think there are numerous lessons to be learned from this game.

Board Analysis:  At a first glance I see Tournament.  This means prizes.  We've got Stonemason.  The only real Village is Necropolis/Trusty Steed.  Other plus action must come from Procession of either Menagerie or Tournament.  Band of Misfits is around and there are a ton of good targets.  Monument is available for Alt-VP.  Graverobber could provide a semi mega-turn.  No trashing other than Stonemason.  You want an early Province because Prizes are good here.  But you also want to be able to build an engine that runs very smoothly. 

The opening:  We both open Tournament/Silver.  I think you want 1 Silver in this game max.  It helps get to that first $5.  I thought about Monument but ended up going Tourney, dunno which is right.  Both are good I think.  Tourney gives +$ and a bit of cycling while Monument is VP tokens.  I think the strength of the engine warrants Tourney.

Situation 1:  After Turn 8 our decks are fairly similar.  The main difference is that I have 1 more menagerie and 2 fewer coppers.  This was a result of Processing one of my Stonemason's for trashing and Menagerie gain.  I was able to make this play a couple of other times during the game and this extra copper trimming proved to be extremely important.

Lesson 1:  In the right circumstances even incredibly poor Copper trashers (e.g. Salvager, Develop, Stonemason, etc.) should be used for trashing.  In this case they allow Menagerie activation to be much more reliable.

Situation 2:  Then things take a big turn.  I draw completely dead on turn 9 allowing Temron to get another Province as well as the Steed and Followers.  Followers is not always the best prize.  Menagerie is a great counter and Princess provides tons of buying power especially with Stonemason.  Had he gotten Princess I don't know if I could have caught up.

Lesson 2:  Know the value of Prizes not just in your own deck but in your opponents.  In this game the Steed I think is tied with Princess as it both draws and is a Village.  But Follower's becomes inconsequential with Menagerie.  Additionally, Princess is great in engines and the Stonemason overpay is just plain OP with Princess.

Situation 3:  Temron gets a nice lead in VP however this is a game where you play for the longer game.  It is also key to point out that Temron relied on BoM as Menagerie for draw.  Even though BoM is a great card on this board it can become a liability.  On Turn 11 I empty the Menagerie pile completely halting all of his BoM draw.

Lesson 3  Know how to slow down your opponent.  He is primed to win with a large VP advantage.  I know that most of his draw is in the form of BoM => Menagerie.  By emptying that pile his deck is destroyed and can no longer draw.  In other games you might want to play a specific attack each turn.  If you let your opponent get ahead of you you either (a) must have a megaturn to end the game on your terms or (b) be able to slow him down allowing your better deck to catch up.  I needed (b) in this game.

Situation 4:  On Turn 14 he makes a bid to end the game on piles by emptying the Stonemason pile while keeping BoM at 1 left.  I have a single turn left and am down 27 to 18 with only a 2 Provinces left in the supply.  On this last turn I am able to use a combination of Menagerie, Procession, BoM (as Monument and Procession) to gain the last BoM, play 4 pseudo Monuments and purchase the last Province.

Lesson 4:  Know how to finish a game with a win.  My last turn was rather complicated.  I had numerous BoM's, Menageries and a plethora of other cards.  Knowing how to play your complicated engines is essential.  I know that he will Probably buy a BoM next turn so unless I get ahead and win this turn I will lose.  Let's look at my last turn.

I have in hand, Procession, Curse, Menagerie, Band of Misfits, Menagerie.  He plays Followers making me discard.  Notice my discard.  BoM and Curse.  I need Procession as it allows me to gain the last BoM by playing BoM as Procession.  Additionally, it can be used to potentially get 2x +3 Cards by playing Menagerie with it.  I end up needing to play Procession on Menagerie and it does net me +6 Cards.  The application of this turn is to take a win when you see one.  Later in the turn, I could have taken a Duchy as a prize by playing BoM as Tournament.  However, if by chance he had another Province in hand, I am now unable to get $8 for the last Province (would be stuck with $7 after playing BoM as Menagerie twice).   By playing both of my Processed BoM as Monument I ensure that I have enough VP to be ahead with the game ending on 3 piles.

Ending Thoughts:  All in all, this was a really neat game.  It highlights both the power of Tournament but also the pitfall of investing too heavily in Tournament and being lax on building the engine.  You have to know what is important to your opponent and be able to slow him down so that you can use a stronger engine to overcome a substantial VP lead.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 04:17:40 pm by shark_bait »
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Kirian

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 04:58:26 pm »
+2

Never give up, never surrender!
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Robz888

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 05:04:25 pm »
+2

In a thread titled "Never Give Up," it's always only a matter of time before someone posts this:
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silverspawn

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 05:53:54 pm »
+1

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

Kirian

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 08:26:41 pm »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
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Axxle

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 08:49:20 pm »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
Those poor actors...
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markusin

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 08:55:52 pm »
+1

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
Those poor actors...
Tim Allen's character seemed pretty rich. I can only guess Tim Allen himself has a good deal of money as well.
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markusin

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 08:58:03 pm »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...
I'm gonna have to agree with Silverspawn here though.

Surrender now, but find an opportunity to escape or otherwise avoid harm. That works pretty often.
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liopoil

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 09:08:12 pm »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...
I'm gonna have to agree with Silverspawn here though.

Surrender now, but find an opportunity to escape or otherwise avoid harm. That works pretty often.
But in the context of a game of Dominion...
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Kirian

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 11:17:03 pm »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
Those poor actors...
Tim Allen's character seemed pretty rich. I can only guess Tim Allen himself has a good deal of money as well.

...

... not sure if serious.
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markusin

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 07:37:23 am »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...
I'm gonna have to agree with Silverspawn here though.

Surrender now, but find an opportunity to escape or otherwise avoid harm. That works pretty often.
But in the context of a game of Dominion...
Don't expect people to look favourably towards you if you insist in playing when your opponent has over half the available VP and there's no way to decrease your opponent's score.
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Grujah

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 07:42:08 am »
0

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markusin

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 07:57:04 am »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
Those poor actors...
Tim Allen's character seemed pretty rich. I can only guess Tim Allen himself has a good deal of money as well.

...

... not sure if serious.
Sorry for the confusion. It reminded me of a joke in the cartoon Samurai Jack. I can't find a link, but it boils down to a villager from a troubled village taking offense to being referred to as "poor" because the village technically had a modest amount of wealth.
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Kirian

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2014, 08:48:00 am »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
Those poor actors...
Tim Allen's character seemed pretty rich. I can only guess Tim Allen himself has a good deal of money as well.

...

... not sure if serious.
Sorry for the confusion. It reminded me of a joke in the cartoon Samurai Jack. I can't find a link, but it boils down to a villager from a troubled village taking offense to being referred to as "poor" because the village technically had a modest amount of wealth.

OK, so there is a scene in Galaxy Quest where the actors have realized that the Thermians have misinterpreted their TV show, and so many others.  Tim Allen's character asks them if they really think Gilligan's Island was real, and Mathesar says "Those poor people..."  Axxle was referencing that.
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Grujah

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2014, 09:16:50 am »
+2

we really need explainingpopculturereferencesstrategy.com, it seems. Theory?
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markusin

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Re: Never Give Up
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2014, 09:55:56 am »
0

Never give up, never surrender!

that's a terrible lesson...

You've never seen Galaxy Quest?
Those poor actors...
Tim Allen's character seemed pretty rich. I can only guess Tim Allen himself has a good deal of money as well.

...

... not sure if serious.
Sorry for the confusion. It reminded me of a joke in the cartoon Samurai Jack. I can't find a link, but it boils down to a villager from a troubled village taking offense to being referred to as "poor" because the village technically had a modest amount of wealth.

OK, so there is a scene in Galaxy Quest where the actors have realized that the Thermians have misinterpreted their TV show, and so many others.  Tim Allen's character asks them if they really think Gilligan's Island was real, and Mathesar says "Those poor people..."  Axxle was referencing that.
That seems way too subtle considering how the main characters were also actors. Depending on how you interpret the events of the movie, you could say the main characters were "unfortunate actors".
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