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[ashersky]

Welcome to MXLIII: Monsters University Mafia!

Mods: ashersky, (back-up)

This game will use an original, semi-closed setup (see Post 2).

Players:
1.  yuma, Town Desperado - Killed on Night 1.
2.  Robz888, 3-Shot Role Cop and Coroner - Killed on Night 2.
3.  chairs - James P. Sullivan, the Innocent Mason - Killed on Night 3.
4.  mail-mi, a Vanilla Monster - Lynched on Day 4.
5.  witherweaver, Human Child Nexus - Killed on Night 3.
6.  Delirious Deleuze
7.  Faust
8.  jotheonah, a Vanilla Monster - Lynched on Day 1.
9.  Teproc, Human Child Janitor - Lynched on Day 2.
10.  AndrewisFTTW, a Vanilla Monster - Killed on Night 4.
11.  EFHW - Mike Wazowski
12.  Axxle
13.  ADK, a Vanilla Monster - Killed on Night 2.
14.  Archetype



Scare Games Winners!
Night 0: Roar Omega Roar - Randall Boggs's Can O' Sweat!
Night 1: Roar Omega Roar - Faulty Scream Can!
Night 2: Oozma Kappa - Decommissioned Door!
Night 3: Python Nu Kappa - Archie the Scare Pig!

Spectators Tagged: Jimmmmm, 2.7, Voltaire

Day starts/ends:
D1: Start | End
D2: Start | End
D3: Start | End
D4: Start | End
D5: Start

ashersky's Mafia Ruleset

The Golden Rule:
This is a game.  Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun.  Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.  Read The Civility Pledge before signing up for this game.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play here.

The Standard Rules:
1.  No communication between players outside of the game thread or QTs at any time.  This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads.
2.  If the game thread or QT is locked, do not post.  If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3.  Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden.  Paraphrasing is okay.
4.  Town night actions must be submitted by PM to the mod within 24 hours of day's end.  The most recent order will always be valid.
5.  Scum night actions must be submitted in QT within 24 hours of day's end.  Any team member may submit all night actions.  The most recent order(s) will always be valid.
6.  Players must post once every 24 hours.
7.  Do not edit or delete posts, ever.  If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8.  Invisible text, font size less than 8, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9.  Cryptography is not allowed.
10.  The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight.  All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
11.  Dead players may not post in thread or QT.  A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.

The Voting Rules:
1.  Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername.  Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable.
2.  Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3.  Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4.  You may vote: no lynch if you prefer.
5.  Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached.  Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.

The Deadlines:
1.  Days will last seven consecutive 24-hour periods.
2.  Nights will last two consecutive 24-hour periods.
3.  Adjustments may be made to ensure days do not start or end on a Friday or Saturday. 

The Rest:
1.  Bold, maroon (or blue) text is reserved for the Mod(s).  Players may not use them.
2.  If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod.  Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3.  Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently.  If they can be corrected, they will.  If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4.  If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5.  Bold all in-thread Mod questions and requests so that they don’t get missed.
6.  Prods of inactive players will be issued automatically after 48 hours.  A prodded player has 12 hours to respond or risks replacement.
7.  Players may request a prod after 24 hours without a post.
8.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
9.  In reference to 6-8, "inactive" is defined as not having posted in the game thread AND not having provided notice in the VLA Thread.
10.  All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.

[ashersky]

Welcome to Monsters University Mafia! This is a semi-closed, regular game for 14 players. Some information is public, most is not. This post will detail everything that is known to all players.

The number of factions and the number of players in any given faction is unknown.
The general setup is unknown.
Vanilla Townies are known as Vanilla Monsters in this game.
The Mafia are known as Human Children in this game.
The Town win condition is "You win when all threats to the University have been expelled."

If you are reading this, you are already playing the game. Luckily, you haven't yet lost. There are three Greek houses (neighborhoods) currently recruiting on campus. These are Roar Omega Roar, Oozma Kappa, and Python Nu Kappa. These fraternities and sorority are not aligned with any faction. The entire pre-game period, including /in posts and subsequent discussion, until the thread locks is Rush Week.

There are many reasons one might be recruited to a Greek organization. Maybe you are a fantastic scarer. Perhaps you have an encyclopedic knowledge of scare tactics. Here are a few things Rush Chairs are definitely looking for: Pixar (and especially Monsters Inc./University) knowledge, geography and history skills, Dominion ability, and debate club experience. If you want to get into a fraternity or sorority, start selling yourself!

During Night 0, the Rush Chairs will draft players to join their respective organizations. The methodology is secret, but fair. Each night, including Night 0, the fraternities and sorority will compete in the Scare Games! The games are a mystery, but the prizes aren't! They include:

A Randall Boggs's Can 'O Sweat!
A Faulty Scream Can!
A Decomissioned Door!
Archie the Scare Pig!

You may or may not be told what these prizes do before they are awarded. They may or may not have detrimental effects for any given faction, though, so you probably want to win.

All other game play will be the same as my other mafia games. As mentioned, this is a Tribute game, so you should expect to recognize aspects of a number of other games from f.ds throughout this experience.

Thanks for joining!

[yuma]

/confirming my auto-in

now to read the setup!

[yuma]

I have seen:
Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Car, WALL-E, Up, Toy Story 3 and Monsters University. The Incredibles was my favorite.

I won third place in my fifth grade geography bee! And have watched over 50% of the episodes of Carmen Sandiego (my wife dressed up as her two Halloweens ago... I was Waldo).

I own Base, Intrigue, Cornucopia, Hinterlands and Dark Ages. Highest I ever got on iso was level 38.

And you all know I could debate you to the ground! Boom!

Pick me for your frat!

[yuma]

I have also heard that Robz has never seen a Pixar film (except for Cars 2, which he loves...), doesn't know the capital of Bangladesh (its Dhaka) and obviously is pretty terrible at Dominion (Young Nick told me that he cheats when playing in RL)...

I wouldn't pick him if it were a choice between him and Boy Scout Russell (that is an Up reference BTW...)

[Robz888]

/in

[Robz888]

I was a history minor at the University of Michigan, the Harvard of the West. I specialized in medieval European History and Three Kingdoms-era China. My geography is as steady as the Taishan Mountains, as Zhuge Liang would say.

I own all Dominion sets (minus Promos), and am one of the better players in the world. I have been as high as sixth on the Goko Leaderboard, and routinely place in the top 20 on Isotropish.

My debate skills are quite good. In fact, as a journalist, I am paid to convince people that I am right.

I have also heard that Robz has never seen a Pixar film (except for Cars 2, which he loves...)

Just a total distortion. I have seen (and loved) all three Toy Story movies. I loved Up. I thought Wall-E was a tad overrated but still good. I haven't seen any of the others, including Cars or Cars 2.

This is true though:

I have also heard that Robz has never seen a Pixar film (except for Cars 2, which he loves...), doesn't know the capital of Bangladesh (its Dhaka) and obviously is pretty terrible at Dominion (Young Nick told me that he cheats when playing in RL)...

I wouldn't pick him if it were a choice between him and Boy Scout Russell (that is an Up reference BTW...)

So I have that going for me, too.

[Jimmmmm]

/tag

[chairs]

Oh hell, /in.

[mail-mi]

/in

My skillset to come later.

[mail-mi]

/in

My skillset to come later.

I have memorized the story line of every Pixar movie ever.

I'll confess that I'm not that proficient in geography, but I do have a pretty good knowledge in both it and history.

I'm also an average Dominion player, not the best but not horrible either.

I'll just say that I may not be the best mafia player, but when I'm into it, better watch out.

[chairs]

Skillset:

I am a collection of chairs.  I mesh well with Tables.

[Witherweaver]

\in

[2.71828.....]

I have also heard that Robz has never seen a Pixar film (except for Cars 2, which he loves...), doesn't know the capital of Bangladesh (its Dhaka) and obviously is pretty terrible at Dominion (Young Nick told me that he cheats when playing in RL)...

I wouldn't pick him if it were a choice between him and Boy Scout Russell (that is an Up reference BTW...)

Yuma has obviously never seen Up, otherwise he would know that it is Wilderness Explorer Russell, and not Boy Scout Russell.  The similarities are there, but the distinction is clear.  Russell is a Wilderness Explorer who is working on his final merit badge for assisting the elderly when he meets Carl.

Would you really want someone with that kind of spotty Pixar knowledge in your Greek house?  I doubt it.

oh, and /tag. 

[Voltaire]

/tag

[ashersky]

This can start in a week if it fills...

[AndrewisFTTW]

/in

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh hi! Thank you for considering me as a potential member of your frat. You'll find that I am more than qualified for the position as I am quite an avid fan of Pixar, I have an extensive knowledge of geography and history, I am an excellent Dominion player, and though I have no official debating experience, I will unofficially debate the shit out of you. Well, not you personally but rather everyone else.

I have seen all the Toy Storys, A Bug's Life, The Incredibles, WALL-E, and Up. Yes, Monsters Inc and Monsters University are glaring omissions but rest assured, this can (and will) be quickly remedied.

History has always been an important part of my life. Probably the biggest reason for this is that my father is an historian and has been employed at the National Archives in Washington DC for as long as I've been alive. Geography specifically is a subject I am always studying. As a touring musician, I have traveled all across the United States and have spent time studying maps, reading books, and watching documentaries of various histories of the peoples inhabiting this incredible planet.

I haven't been playing Dominion very long but I have learned a good amount in the time I have been a member of this forum. My rating may not reflect my Dominion prowess due to a number of mindless late night games in which I don't seriously spend time thinking through a specific strategy and thus executing the proper techniques. However, I can compete with the best players when I focus my mind and properly think through a relevant strategy. As evidence, I have a .500 win percentage versus WanderingWinder (1 win, 1 loss).

As mentioned above, my debating experience is minimal. I will, however, point you to previous mafia games I have been involved in, as I believe I have successfully debated with those considered to be among the best in the business.

I'm sure you will find my experience quite satisfactory and that you will consider me more than qualified for this frat position. I would also be remiss to not mention that although you cannot see it, I assure you I am dressed better than any of your other applicants. I am also wearing a watch just to subtly demonstrate my punctuality.

References

yuma
Jimmmmm
Voltaire

Thank you for your time.

[Delirious Deleuze]

/in

[AndrewisFTTW]

/out until I get this phone shit figured out.

[ashersky]

This needs to fill now, guys.  It'll be awesome.

[faust]

Alright, /in

I don't really like selling myself, but whatever, let's get on with it.

First, it should be obvious that I'm the best Dominion player in this mafia community because I'm the only one among you all that made it to the playoffs of GokoDom III. So there's little point in choosing anyone but me, I would think.

Regarding Pixar, I prefer the older movies. I have seen all Toy Stories (the first two can really get me nostalgic), A Bug's Life, Monsters, Inc., Finding Nemo and Wall-E. I can bring in specific knowledge of the German synchros, which are really lovingly made. Seriously, I encourage all of who who can speak German to try the German versions of the Pixar movies. Finding Nemo in particular I found much more enjoyable in the German synchro.

I was always fond of historical knowlegde, and naturally, I bring in a much more detailed view on European history than most of you. Even though I never learned history on a University level, I'm confident I could beat Robz in knowledge of Medieval European History. Also, well, you know I'm from Germany. We are probably the country that suffers critically reflects their own past most, considering the horrible deeds that were committed here 75 years past.

As far as geography goes, I know my share. I might not be able to name all 50 states of the US from memory, but I can list all 28 member states of the European Union. So you'll find I can complement your US-centered view pretty well.

I am studying mathematics on a graduate level. The core of mathematics really is thinking logically, and that's also a key skill in debating. Plus, journalism is a hobby of mine; even though I never pursued this professionally, I got as far as publishing an article in one of the major German newspapers (the "taz"). So this helped my debating skills as well.

[ashersky]

Rush Week at Monsters University was well under way, with all the various fraternities and sororities competing for the best freshman monsters.  Tons of hopeful monsters were visiting booths, open houses, and crazy parties to see which organization was for them.  The scene was crazy!

The entire campus was buzzing about the upcoming Scare Games, too.  Rumors were that there were three houses with the best chances of winning: Roar Omega Roar, Oozma Kappa, and Python Nu Kappa.  What lucky freshmen would be pledging there?

Another rumor swirling around campus was that two of the most famous almost-alums would be visiting for this year's Games...could it be true?

[ashersky]

PMs, QTs, everything is good to go.  Other games are winding down, too.  Let's rock this thing!

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hi there! I'm Delirious Deleuze, but my mafia friends (and the scum) call me DD for short!

I'm not very good at selling myself, but I know a lot about Disney and Pixar. I've seen most movies a few times. I saw Monsters University just this year while on a play from California to Chicago!

I'm okay at dominion. I'm around 4000 points right now, but I don't play often. Faust is definitely better than me.

I'm fairly knowledgeable in history. I know a lot about post-medieval European history. You want to talk about the Burgundy empire, I got you.

As far as debate goes, although, I got you all beat. I did policy debate in high school and won state while competing nationally. I now coach for one of the top teams in the country. Here's a video of me in finals. I'm the fourth speaker.

[ashersky]

[youtube video]

Win.

[Eevee]

Wow!

[Teproc]

This will be during my exams so I won't play but I can co-mod.

[ashersky]

The sign-up list is missing some notable names...no eevees, joths, volts, or a number of others.  You'll be missing out on some fun!

Also Arch and EFHW for sure, as your games are tributed here.

[ashersky]

Bump again.

[jotheonah]

ok, I'm in.

I'm not awesome at Dominion, because I haven't played since the death of iso, but I used to be OK.

Ironically, Monsters University is one of the only Pixar films I HAVEN'T seen, along with the Cars series. Otherwise, pretty UP on things.

I was on my speech and debate team in high school. I was in charge of our Congress team, which once successfully used Roberts' Rules to impeach a moderator, resulting in (1) making a girl cry and (2) our being asked not to return to that particular meet. But to be fair, she was a really bad moderator.

I'm really good on US history and Geography, and as an American, I'm fully confident that that's the only kind of history and geography that matters.

[Witherweaver]

So we want to get recruited?  Okay, well I do math stuff and can certainly assist my fellow students' with any level of math and any undergrad physics/CS.  And I play volleyball, too, in case there are any interscholastic sports competitions. 

Not that any of that was mentioned in the setup post.  I also play Dominion.  I haven't seen all that many Pixar movies, and I know a bit of History and Geography, but I never studied those specifically in school.  But I have this friend named Google that did.

[Teproc]

Alright, looks like my life expectancy is so short in mafia that I should be out when I need the time.

So /in.

I'm an ok Dominion player, I never really liked playing online that much though, I find it hard to concentrate and keep track of where my deck is at and what it needs. Since I'm better than everyone I play with IRL and I don't play a lot online, I never got really good (although I did crack the top 100 for a brief period of time back in Iso).

I'm French, that's gotta count for something, I mean there's not going to be anyone else in this game that can bring that to the table. I also grew up in Germany (Bonn) so I kinda count as German, right ? That means extensive knowledge about music, TV, movies and books you've never even heard about !

I'm a history student, and I love geography (I learned every single capital in the world as a kid, still remember 95% of them) and geopolitics. I'm generally knowledgeable about all kinds of useless stuff. Debate teams are not a thing in France (not that I know of at least), but I have 5 older siblings so I'm used to debating everything and anything for any period of time at any volume.

I'm not a big Pixar guy though. I've seen Toy Story, Life of Nemo (or whatever the original name is, I think it's something else, but it's the one with the fish, I'm sure you got it)... and I think that's it. If I'm going to watch an animated movie, it's generally going to be a Miyazaki, so I never really got into the Pixar catalogue even though i've heard great things about Wall-E and Up.

Oh, and I also play volley-ball WW ! That's about it for sports though, unless you count sailing.

[ashersky]

Woo-hoo!

EFHW has to join this game.  I blatantly stole one of her ideas (tribute!).

[ashersky]

You notice a monster posting a flyer on the quad.  You head over to check it out...

IT'S COMING!
THE ANNUAL SCARE GAMES
ARE HERE!!!

THE CHALLENGES ARE
EVEN MORE DANGEROUS
EVEN MORE RECKLESS
AND EVEN MORE SCARY!!!!

IS YOUR SCARING SCARY ENOUGH?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Back /in.

[Voltaire]

Ash, I just want you to know that I'm not /in-ing here simply because I don't have the time to commit to a game to the 110% this game clearly deserves.

[ashersky]

Ash, I just want you to know that I'm not /in-ing here simply because I don't have the time to commit to a game to the 110% this game clearly deserves.

You overestimate the commitment required.   You'll have fun in the speccy nonetheless.

[EFHW]

This was totally off my radar.  /in.

I have average history and Pixar knowledge, but I am great at googling!

I have prodigious experience at losing at Dominion (thanks liopoil!).  I have Dark Ages, Cornicopia, Prosperity and another expansion I can't remember at the moment.  Which one has tactician?

Regarding debating, I can hold my own, thank you very much.

[Teproc]

Which one has tactician?

Somehow I feel like it's my job to answer that one (Seaside).

[AndrewisFTTW]

Regarding debating, I can hold my own, thank you very much.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

[Axxle]

Regarding debating, I can hold my own, thank you very much.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

you don't need evidence in a debate if you're convincing enough.

Fine. /in

I'm decent at dominion although I rarely play a anymore. I have excellent Pixar knowledge besides the few I haven't seen (like ratata). Basic history, decent debate. I like dislike piña coladas, hate getting caught in the rain, I'm not much into health food, and I have half a brain.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Do you like making out at midnight?

[EFHW]

Which one has tactician?

Somehow I feel like it's my job to answer that one (Seaside).

Ah, that explains the Sea Hag at my doorstep.

[jotheonah]

I can't believe none of you care that I used Roberts Rules to make a girl cry. I am sharing some deep shame/pride moments over here.

[Axxle]

Do you like making out at midnight?

in the duuunes of a couch.

I can't believe none of you care that I used Roberts Rules to make a girl cry. I am sharing some deep shame/pride moments over here.

it's her debate and she can cry if she wants to. (I have no idea what Roberts rules are. Why was she a bad mod?)

[shraeye]

Do you like making out at midnight?

in the duuunes of a couch.

I can't believe none of you care that I used Roberts Rules to make a girl cry. I am sharing some deep shame/pride moments over here.

it's her debate and she can cry if she wants to. (I have no idea what Roberts rules are. Why was she a bad mod?)

+1 for the song reference.

[ashersky]

I can't believe none of you care that I used Roberts Rules to make a girl cry. I am sharing some deep shame/pride moments over here.

I appreciate it.  I made a girl cry in college after she insulted a friend of mine after pointing out how hurtful it was for her to say things like that.

[ashersky]

Also, two more to make PMs go boom!

[A Drowned Kernel]

/in

I've seen every Pixar movie except for Cars 2 and Monster's University, and I've seen most (all? not sure) of the shorts as well.

I usually hover around rank 40 on the isotropish board, so I'm at least decent at Dominion.

My geography and history are probably less than impressive, but I read a lot of TvTropes so I do know a lot of random trivia.

I briefly did debate in high school and lost pretty much every round I every debated in.

[ashersky]

New line added to Post 2.

[Archetype]

[Archetype]

/in. Hi, I'm Archetype.

I have seen every single Pixar Movie and the various shorts several times...with the exception of a single-viewing of Brave. Out of all of them, Wall-E is my favorite.

I'm fairly good at geography and know the name and location of the majority of countries. I find American history boring and love studying Medieval stuff - It's so much more interesting!

I'm OK at Dominion. Despite reading up on a bunch of strategy articles and being a member for 2 years, I still occasionally lose to my 6 year old brother.

Starting next year, I'll be on the Debate team. I am, however, a tutor! So if you need some help with high school level math, I'm your guy.

[mail-mi]

[ashersky]

And we're full!

Night zero has begun, and you are all playing!  This thread is not yet locked.

The Rush Chairs of ROR, OZ, and PNK will be deciding who to draft into their organizations over the coming hours.  You can keep posting funny and insightful things here to make yourselves attractive!

Keep your fingers crossed!

[mail-mi]

You can keep posting funny and insightful things here to make yourselves attractive!

Oh joy.

I'm in college calculus. Pretty sure I 100%'d the class (don't have the grade yet--but before the final, I had 101%). And I'm a sophomore. A High-school sophomore.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm a college graduate, which I think means I'm a bigger loser than all the younger folks since I'm supposed to be having a real life. I majored in physics so if you think that's going to come up you should recruit me.

[Witherweaver]

You can keep posting funny and insightful things here to make yourselves attractive!

Oh joy.

I'm in college calculus. Pretty sure I 100%'d the class (don't have the grade yet--but before the final, I had 101%). And I'm a sophomore. A High-school sophomore.

I didn't take college Calculus until my Junior year of high school :/

[ashersky]

[img.]http://Just Send Me My PM Cat[/img]

Role PMs will go out when Rush is over.

[Axxle]

You can keep posting funny and insightful things here to make yourselves attractive!

Oh joy.

I'm in college calculus. Pretty sure I 100%'d the class (don't have the grade yet--but before the final, I had 101%). And I'm a sophomore. A High-school sophomore.

[ashersky]

Rush chairs for ROR, OZ, and PNK have 24 hours or less to PM me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ooo!! ooo!!! ooo!! Pick me! Pick me!! Meeeee!!!!!

[yuma]

Ooo!! ooo!!! ooo!! Pick me! Pick me!! Meeeee!!!!!

I wouldn't pick Andrew... I hear he has these really loud drums that he plays at all hours of the night, doesn't shower regularly and is pretty much an ANIMAL!!! Not the first person monster I would pick to share a Greek House with...

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ooo!! ooo!!! ooo!! Pick me! Pick me!! Meeeee!!!!!

I wouldn't pick Andrew... I hear he has these really loud drums that he plays at all hours of the night, doesn't shower regularly and is pretty much an ANIMAL!!! Not the first person monster I would pick to share a Greek House with...

Even nerd frats need someone who knows how to party. WOOOO!!!!!

[chairs]

http://www.nbc.com/the-tonight-show/video/lip-sync-battle-with-emma-stone/2777599

[EFHW]

Oh, did I mention I won the 4th grade Spelling Bee?

ashersky you haven't really said what the frat groups are for.  Do they have a way to win somehow, along with the winning faction?

[Witherweaver]

Oh, did I mention I won the 4th grade Spelling Bee?

ashersky you haven't really said what the frat groups are for.  Do they have a way to win somehow, along with the winning faction?

And is there hazing?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh, did I mention I won the 4th grade Spelling Bee?

ashersky you haven't really said what the frat groups are for.  Do they have a way to win somehow, along with the winning faction?

And is there hazing?

Shutup freshman, before I noogie you into the ground!

[jotheonah]

Oh, did I mention I won the 4th grade Spelling Bee?

ashersky you haven't really said what the frat groups are for.  Do they have a way to win somehow, along with the winning faction?

I won the third grade spelling bee. The following year I was foiled by the word delicious.

[Axxle]

Oh, did I mention I won the 4th grade Spelling Bee?

ashersky you haven't really said what the frat groups are for.  Do they have a way to win somehow, along with the winning faction?

I won the third grade spelling bee. The following year I was foiled by the word delicious.

Did EFHW beat you?

[jotheonah]

I guess it's possible. That's the beauty of the internet.

[Witherweaver]

I guess it's possible. That's the beauty of the internet.

I would think an online spelling bee takes away a lot of the challenge...

[EFHW]

I guess it's possible. That's the beauty of the internet.

nope, all girl's school!

[EFHW]

I guess it's possible. That's the beauty of the internet.

nope, all girl's school!

Plus, you probably weren't even born yet when I was in 4th grade.

[ashersky]

Thread locked.

[ashersky]

Okay, all PMs are out.  Confirm in your QTs, please.

[ashersky]

Thread is still locked, however spectators may /tag.

[sudgy]

/tag, mainly for speccy

[ashersky]

The rumors were abounding everywhere...children had found a way to open doors in the door lab!  Most of them had been caught, but supposedly a few were still lurking around.

What could the University do to ensure everyone's safety?

In the meantime, the Scare Games have begun!  Who would win the night's prize, a Randall Boggs's Can o' Sweat!?  A popular souvenir when Randall first joined Monsters, Inc., no one really remembers what it does anymore...only the really sneaky kids ever bought it.

[ashersky]

It was a great competition, and the results were close!  The winner of the first Scare a Game is...

Roar Omega Roar!

I wonder what they'll use that prize for...or if it still works?

[ashersky]

Another beautiful dawn broke over the green campus of Monsters University.  Students were scurrying to class or breakfast, the dew still twinkling on the grass.  And then...

"HUMAN CHILDREN!!!!!!"  a seventeen-legged purple monsters ran screaming across the quad, waving his arms over his head.  "HUMAN CHILDREN ARE ON THE CAMPUS!!!!"

It was true.  One of the doors in the Door Lab had swung open and a number of kids had come through.  Luckily, the Child Detection Agency had been able to round up most of them...but not all.

Dean Hardscrabble knew there was only one thing to do.  She needed professionals to help.  She called her old friends at Monsters, Inc. and asked them to come right away.

With the help of Mike Wazowski (EFHW) and James P. Sullivan (chairs), could the University be made safe?

[ashersky]

Day 1 has begun!

EFHW and chairs are confirmed town.




Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (14): yuma, Robz888, chairs, mail-mi, witherweaver, Delirious Deleuze, Faust, jotheonah, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, EFHW, Axxle, ADK, Archetype

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[yuma]

So until we know what is what I would suggest that no claiming of anything, including houses...

EFHW and chairs can have the last say on that, but until we know if claiming it would be bad or good let's stay away from it for now.

[Axxle]

I may or may not need to claim a house...

[yuma]

and by houses I mean Greek Frat/Sor...

Nice to have EFHW as town as she is the expert on having these sort of houses. She modded Harry Potter mafia where we had it as well.... and was obviously what ash was alluding to when he said he was tributing her game.

[Axxle]

vote: dd

[yuma]

for some reason when you said "house" it made me think of Monopoly. Monopoly has houses yes?

Has anyone ever tried to do Monopoly Mafia? Isn't the whole reason we have forum mafia because someone started a thread about how horrible Monopoly is...? Monopoly is horrible, but Monopoly Mafia sounds kinda fun...

[AndrewisFTTW]

I got Nintendo Monopoly recently. It kinda rocks.

We have ICs I guess. Cool.

vote mail-mi because.... you know...

[yuma]

yeah, two ICs rock... but it makes me very wary.... I am thinking mafia probably has pretty good powers or town has kinda weak powers. I don't want to speculate too much on the town side, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if mafia is stacked

[Archetype]

Well this is cool!

Vote: yuma Why shouldn't we claim houses? If scum are a member of our sororities/fraternities, they already know whose a part of them. And if they are a part of two, they can POE the players in the other one.

[yuma]

Well this is cool!

Vote: yuma Why shouldn't we claim houses? If scum are a member of our sororities/fraternities, they already know whose a part of them. And if they are a part of two, they can POE the players in the other one.

Why are you voting me for it? What makes it worthy of a vote?

I don't know if we should or shouldn't. I am saying we shouldn't until we think about the positives or the negatives associated with it. I can't remember what the outcome was from the last game, EFHW will probably remember best.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well someone has an item. Does it really matter if we find out who that is? Not at this point at least.

[Archetype]

for some reason when you said "house" it made me think of Monopoly. Monopoly has houses yes?

Has anyone ever tried to do Monopoly Mafia? Isn't the whole reason we have forum mafia because someone started a thread about how horrible Monopoly is...? Monopoly is horrible, but Monopoly Mafia sounds kinda fun...

Hmmmm. Each player rolls each night and moves around on a doc sheet board. If you land on a property and its already owned by someone not of your faction, you must pay rent to that player. If its unowned, you can choose to buy it. If you run go bankrupt, you are killed.

Mafia's kill would probably decrease/take other people's money and have some factional power that would give them a free pass when they land on a Townie's property.

Each color would be a specific power (Doctor A, B, C)To use powers you'd have to invest some money into that property (buy houses). But you'd need a Monopoly first...so you could probably somehow trade properties.

It's probably possible to do.

[Archetype]

Well this is cool!

Vote: yuma Why shouldn't we claim houses? If scum are a member of our sororities/fraternities, they already know whose a part of them. And if they are a part of two, they can POE the players in the other one.

Why are you voting me for it? What makes it worthy of a vote?

I don't know if we should or shouldn't. I am saying we shouldn't until we think about the positives or the negatives associated with it. I can't remember what the outcome was from the last game, EFHW will probably remember best.

Town won because of it.

It's worthy of a vote because its RVS.

[yuma]

RVS isn't a good enough reason to vote someone when you actually imply a reason. If you have a reason, it isn't RVS... but we have had this discussion before.

What do you mean town won because of it? I don't remember that.

[Archetype]

RVS isn't a good enough reason to vote someone when you actually imply a reason. If you have a reason, it isn't RVS... but we have had this discussion before.

What do you mean town won because of it? I don't remember that.

Eh, I guess "because of it" is a little strong. Everyone claimed D1 and Town won the game.

What do you think are the disadvantages of house claiming?

[yuma]

I don't know. Legion potentially. What are the benefits of doing so? Again, I am not saying we shouldn't. I am saying we shouldn't w/o a good reason.

[EFHW]

Town won HP b/c of good scum-hunting and then investigation.  I don't recall the houses being a factor in that.  chairs and I are not in a Greek house, btw, so we don't know what kind of discussions are happening there. In HP there were 4 houses, 3 scum, and 2 factions.  The 3 scum by chance ended up in different houses (town didn't know that, of course), so they knew the composition of each house from the beginning, and claiming meant everyone had that information.  In HP the houses had voting powers, so there was potentially more pressure on the scum in each house, and opportunity for scum-hunting through the house voting discussions.

Here we have 3 houses, an unknown # of factions and unknown #'s of members in each faction.  It's not clear if town wants to win the challenges or not, and the knowledge is pretty specialized, so it shouldn't be hard for scum to blend in. 

ashersky: will flips contain the individual's frat/sorority?

It's not clear from the OP how the prizes work -- if one individual gets the prize, or if the house votes on a target for some prize action.  The winning house from the first challenge knows how it works, though.  They might even know what the prize did!

I think that knowledge is enough for me to advocate house claiming.  Let's hear from more people first, and then if it looks like a go, I don't think we need any special order or system.

[Witherweaver]

What would claiming the houses do for us?  I can't think of a good reason not to, but there doesn't seem a point to unless there is a benefit.

[yuma]

What would claiming the houses do for us?  I can't think of a good reason not to, but there doesn't seem a point to unless there is a benefit.

vote: WW

[jotheonah]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

[Delirious Deleuze]

I think claiming houses can only be good for us. At the best it allows us to know which houses have which prizes, which may or may not be important to finding scum later on. I don't see anything harmful in claiming houses, especially seeing as other people one each house can confirm. At the very best this allows town to have more information on items

[yuma]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

[Witherweaver]

I think claiming houses can only be good for us. At the best it allows us to know which houses have which prizes, which may or may not be important to finding scum later on. I don't see anything harmful in claiming houses, especially seeing as other people one each house can confirm. At the very best this allows town to have more information on items

But we know which house won the challenge, Ash said it when the day started.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think claiming houses can only be good for us. At the best it allows us to know which houses have which prizes, which may or may not be important to finding scum later on. I don't see anything harmful in claiming houses, especially seeing as other people one each house can confirm. At the very best this allows town to have more information on items

It also allows scum to have more information on items.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'd think that info is more valuable to scum than it is to town. So for now, no claiming houses kay? Kay. Thx!!

[Witherweaver]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

You clearly used your PR of precognition to see that I was going to post what I did, and you posted it first.  And as we all know Precog is a Mafia-only PR.  Vote: Yuma

[ashersky]

ashersky: will flips contain the individual's frat/sorority?

Flips will include House.

[AndrewisFTTW]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

What's wrong with that? He was just stating his thoughts.

[Axxle]

vote: yuma

[yuma]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

You clearly used your PR of precognition to see that I was going to post what I did, and you posted it first.  And as we all know Precog is a Mafia-only PR.  Vote: Yuma

Your vote looks RVSy. Mine isn't. Mafia often parrot what other people say so that they can have something to say. You can camouflage it in a joke, but it is true.

[yuma]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

What's wrong with that? He was just stating his thoughts.

There is nothing wrong with it per se. But as I just said above it is something I have seen mafia do. I have stated again and again, correctly mind you, that posting as mafia is hard. You have to check every single thing you say for correctness because one slip can cost you the game. As a result mafia often 1. posts less and 2. repeats what others say rather than coming up with something original. It is often seen with voting (sheeping) but it is done even more often with just content.

Now could WW have had the exact same thought as me? Yes. Probable even, but that doesn't indicate alignment. But he added nothing new to the conversation. No original thought that might somehow slip something if he is mafia. This might indicate alignment... hence the vote.

[Witherweaver]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

You clearly used your PR of precognition to see that I was going to post what I did, and you posted it first.  And as we all know Precog is a Mafia-only PR.  Vote: Yuma

Your vote looks RVSy. Mine isn't. Mafia often parrot what other people say so that they can have something to say. You can camouflage it in a joke, but it is true.

Mine was RVSy.  I was assuming yours was a joke as well.  EFHW wanted to know what other people thought of claiming houses, and that was my thought.  I didn't realize that my post looked just like yours until you responded to me.

[yuma]

I think that knowledge is enough for me to advocate house claiming.  Let's hear from more people first, and then if it looks like a go, I don't think we need any special order or system.

Hmmm. you are right. I hadn't noticed that EFHW specifically asked for thoughts. Makes me less suspicious.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.1:

mail-mi (1):  Andrew
yuma (3):  Archetype, WW, Axxle
WW (1):  yuma

Not Voting (9): Robz888, chairs, mail-mi, Delirious Deleuze, Faust, jotheonah, Teproc, EFHW, ADK

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[Robz888]

Two ICs? TWO?? That's great, but it makes me really worried about scums' awesome PRs.

Chairs and EFHW are perfect people to be ICs, by the way. They are competent, neither lurkers nor overactive, and difficult to read when their alignments are unknown.

I don't know if we should House claim. Probably not.

[Witherweaver]

<snip>
It's not clear from the OP how the prizes work -- if one individual gets the prize, or if the house votes on a target for some prize action.  The winning house from the first challenge knows how it works, though.  They might even know what the prize did!
<snip>

So, this could be a indicate a reason not to claim.  We know that Roar Omega Roar got a prize from the competition, but we don't know if the prize is tied to an individual.  If it IS, and that individual were to die, the prize might be lost.  If we all claim houses than this could give scum a smaller pool to hunt from in hopes of eliminating the prize.

[mail-mi]

I got Nintendo Monopoly recently. It kinda rocks.

We have ICs I guess. Cool.

vote mail-mi because.... you know...

Sorry. I'm lynchproof. It won't work.

[EFHW]

Benefits to claiming:

1. Everyone has same information about who is in which house (currently mafia know more)

2. We learn how the prizes work

Con to claiming:

1. Mafia/other scum know who to nk re: prize.  It is very likely that they already know this, however, since chances are good that there is mafia/other scum in the winning house.  They may even have gotten the prize.

I think not claiming benefits mafia much more than claiming.  I would like to hear a convincing argument to the contrary,

[EFHW]

What would claiming the houses do for us?  I can't think of a good reason not to, but there doesn't seem a point to unless there is a benefit.

vote: WW

The difference between this post and yuma's is that I had just posted two good reasons to claim.  yuma's post came before mine.

[Archetype]

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

What's wrong with that? He was just stating his thoughts.

Vote:Andrew

Getting a weird vibe from this post.

[Archetype]

Vote:Andrew woops

[EFHW]

As IC I would like to request no lying from town!  This backfires in so many bad ways, as we have seen on multiple occasions.

[EFHW]

No lying from mafia would be nice too, but I don't have any reason to expect that!

[A Drowned Kernel]

So I thought long and hard about whether to wait until after the discussion on a mass house claim was decided to bring this up, then realized that it probably wasn't going to affect my decision.

Vote: WitherWeaver

WW and are in the same house. His first post (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to directly quote it) was to ask if the houses are for town players only, followed by a post basically saying "oh wait, that doesn't make sense". To me this seems like a very forced and artificial "town slip" and makes me suspicious enough of him to be willing to give out the information that we're in the same house.

On the subject of a mass house claim: it seems like there's too many unknowns to figure out for sure if it's beneficial, considering we don't quite know how the prizes work or whether the information of who won what prize helps scum. I'm neutral on the issue.

PPE: 6 If EFHW is favor of the massclaim then I say do it.

[Witherweaver]

Benefits to claiming:

1. Everyone has same information about who is in which house (currently mafia know more)

2. We learn how the prizes work

Con to claiming:

1. Mafia/other scum know who to nk re: prize.  It is very likely that they already know this, however, since chances are good that there is mafia/other scum in the winning house.  They may even have gotten the prize.

I think not claiming benefits mafia much more than claiming.  I would like to hear a convincing argument to the contrary,

That's a good point (about the con).  Though, I'm not quite sure about the winning house having mafia and other scum.  It would depend on how many different factions there are.

Knowing how the prizes work would be good.  I'm not sure what the benefit of knowing who is in what house is, though.

[EFHW]

PPE: 6 If EFHW is favor of the massclaim then I say do it.

Be careful about sheeping the IC's.  We have LESS information than the rest of you, not more.

[Axxle]

I got Nintendo Monopoly recently. It kinda rocks.

We have ICs I guess. Cool.

vote mail-mi because.... you know...

Sorry. I'm lynchproof. It won't work.

Loooooooooooolllll

[Witherweaver]

So I thought long and hard about whether to wait until after the discussion on a mass house claim was decided to bring this up, then realized that it probably wasn't going to affect my decision.

Vote: WitherWeaver

WW and are in the same house. His first post (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to directly quote it) was to ask if the houses are for town players only, followed by a post basically saying "oh wait, that doesn't make sense". To me this seems like a very forced and artificial "town slip" and makes me suspicious enough of him to be willing to give out the information that we're in the same house.

On the subject of a mass house claim: it seems like there's too many unknowns to figure out for sure if it's beneficial, considering we don't quite know how the prizes work or whether the information of who won what prize helps scum. I'm neutral on the issue.

PPE: 6 If EFHW is favor of the massclaim then I say do it.

It wasn't forced, I'm just really stupid about not reading the setup of these games thoroughly, and then I realized that it really didn't make any sense anyway. 

[EFHW]

Benefits to claiming:

1. Everyone has same information about who is in which house (currently mafia know more)

2. We learn how the prizes work

Con to claiming:

1. Mafia/other scum know who to nk re: prize.  It is very likely that they already know this, however, since chances are good that there is mafia/other scum in the winning house.  They may even have gotten the prize.

I think not claiming benefits mafia much more than claiming.  I would like to hear a convincing argument to the contrary,

That's a good point (about the con).  Though, I'm not quite sure about the winning house having mafia and other scum.  It would depend on how many different factions there are.

Knowing how the prizes work would be good.  I'm not sure what the benefit of knowing who is in what house is, though.

It's more that mafia do know, and having less information potentially puts us at a disadvantage.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.2:

mail-mi (1):  Andrew
yuma (2):  WW, Axxle
WW (2):  yuma, ADK
Andrew (1):  Archetype

Not Voting (9): Robz888, chairs, mail-mi, Delirious Deleuze, Faust, jotheonah, Teproc, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[A Drowned Kernel]

PPE: 6 If EFHW is favor of the massclaim then I say do it.

Be careful about sheeping the IC's.  We have LESS information than the rest of you, not more.

Your reasoning above seems solid enough to me, how about that.

PPE: WW, I'm having a really hard time buying that. Part of the reason that it makes so little sense for town to assume that is that you would have to assume, right off the bat, that everyone else in your house is town, and why would you do that? I'm not even sure it was explicitly spelled out in the OP that mafia is in the houses but I think it makes almost no sense as town to think that they're not.

[Witherweaver]

PPE: 6 If EFHW is favor of the massclaim then I say do it.

Be careful about sheeping the IC's.  We have LESS information than the rest of you, not more.

Your reasoning above seems solid enough to me, how about that.

PPE: WW, I'm having a really hard time buying that. Part of the reason that it makes so little sense for town to assume that is that you would have to assume, right off the bat, that everyone else in your house is town, and why would you do that? I'm not even sure it was explicitly spelled out in the OP that mafia is in the houses but I think it makes almost no sense as town to think that they're not.

It was explicitly pointed out that the houses are not faction aligned. I agree it makes so little sense, which is why I thought, "wait, I'm an idiot, that doesn't make any sense."

[faust]

Hi everyone!

Regarding house claims, I agree with this:

Benefits to claiming:

1. Everyone has same information about who is in which house (currently mafia know more)

2. We learn how the prizes work

Con to claiming:

1. Mafia/other scum know who to nk re: prize.  It is very likely that they already know this, however, since chances are good that there is mafia/other scum in the winning house.  They may even have gotten the prize.

I think not claiming benefits mafia much more than claiming.  I would like to hear a convincing argument to the contrary,

And I see WW has made a setup mistake in his house QT. I guess that means we have three ICs now? Great.

Other than that, vote: Robz for now, for posting but not adding anything to the game.

[faust]

Forgot to bold. Vote: Robz

[Axxle]

vote: Faust

Wow. I don't even.

[Teproc]

As far as house claiming goes : I'm in favor.

But more importantly, we have an actual case on someone ! While I don't find WW's initial post scummy (I get yuma's argument, it's not like what yuma was saying was so original that it's strange to see someone say the same thing), and I wouldn't even have necessarily been convinced by ADK's "revelation", but then there's this :

It wasn't forced, I'm just really stupid about not reading the setup of these games thoroughly, and then I realized that it really didn't make any sense anyway. 

This is not true at all ! Or a tleast I don't remember it being. WW is in the "analytical townie" category in my eyes, exactly the kind of guy that does read the setup.

vote: Witherweaver

[Teproc]

vote: Faust

Wow. I don't even.

What is this ?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

[jotheonah]

I'm with Axxle. vote: faust

[faust]

Great. I guess we're past explaining votes now.

[faust]

I guess the WW thing is worth exploring. If we're allowed to quote from QTs, I would like to see the post in question. Well, Teproc has a quite good point right there.

Vote: Witherweaver

[Witherweaver]

As far as house claiming goes : I'm in favor.

But more importantly, we have an actual case on someone ! While I don't find WW's initial post scummy (I get yuma's argument, it's not like what yuma was saying was so original that it's strange to see someone say the same thing), and I wouldn't even have necessarily been convinced by ADK's "revelation", but then there's this :

It wasn't forced, I'm just really stupid about not reading the setup of these games thoroughly, and then I realized that it really didn't make any sense anyway. 

This is not true at all ! Or a tleast I don't remember it being. WW is in the "analytical townie" category in my eyes, exactly the kind of guy that does read the setup.

vote: Witherweaver

I try to be analytical, but sometimes I don't think things through.  I am completely honest here that I did not read through the setup before I started posting in the QT other than when we were /in-ing.  Afterwords, I read through it more and understood better what was going on. 

[Witherweaver]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

How do you know the rush chairs are players and not just some flavor/roleplaying entity that Ash came up with?

[Witherweaver]

I guess the WW thing is worth exploring. If we're allowed to quote from QTs, I would like to see the post in question. Well, Teproc has a quite good point right there.

Vote: Witherweaver

I'm sure since I posted it I'm allowed to show it.

[yuma]

I guess the WW thing is worth exploring. If we're allowed to quote from QTs, I would like to see the post in question. Well, Teproc has a quite good point right there.

Vote: Witherweaver

I'm sure since I posted it I'm allowed to show it.

Get confirmation before doing anything. It isn't worth risking a mod-kill.

If I had to guess based off previous decisions made by ash, I would guess that direct quoting isn't allowed, but summarization is to be used instead.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So Faust went from considering WW an IC to voting for him. That's pretty interesting.

ash, are we allowed to directly quote comments from the house QTs?

[Teproc]

So Faust went from considering WW an IC to voting for him. That's pretty interesting.

Pretty sure faust was jokingly referring to Robz's habit of thinking that making a mistake about the setup makes him an IC.

I do find the way he jumped on the wagon somewhat scummy though : not commiting himself entirely and not bringing anything new to the table (obviously wagon votes are often because you're convinced by previous voters arguments, but this is still an example of what yuma was talking about earlier).

[ashersky]

ash, are we allowed to directly quote comments from the house QTs?

Paraphrase only.  No quoting.

[jotheonah]

Great. I guess we're past explaining votes now.

Why would you ever explain a vote? That's just teaching the mafia how you think.

[faust]

Thanks, Teproc. I was afraid I had to explain the joke myself.

Well, sure I'm not committing myself entirely, it's early D1. And bringing nothing new to the table is kind of a harsh judgment if like every single one of WW's posts has already been subject to commenting.

[faust]

Great. I guess we're past explaining votes now.

Why would you ever explain a vote? That's just teaching the mafia how you think.

So you did think, at least. I guess that's kind of a relief, I was afraid you were just sheepishly following Axxle.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Let me preface this post by saying I see nothing in WW's "slip". Apparently he was confused by the houses. Yes I know it's obvious how the houses work. But as someone who often pushes the "post" button before thinking about my own idiotic questions, I can understand what WW said. I see the point in the meta argument but who's to say WW is analytical when he's scum? I would think he's even more analytical.

[jotheonah]

Great. I guess we're past explaining votes now.

Why would you ever explain a vote? That's just teaching the mafia how you think.

So you did think, at least. I guess that's kind of a relief, I was afraid you were just sheepishly following Axxle.

Nah. I'm exceptionally wary of Axxle ATM. For reasons.

[EFHW]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

I believe the Rush was just flavor and the actual assignments to houses was random.  ash can you verify this?  Also, asherksy loves claiming, and I think he'd be more likely to make a setup that favors claiming than otherwise.  But that's not a reason to claim, just not a reason not to claim.

[EFHW]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me. 

[jotheonah]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me.

WIFOM is better than nothing.

[AndrewisFTTW]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me.

WIFOM is better than nothing.

For scum.

vote: faust

[faust]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me.

WIFOM is better than nothing.

For scum.

vote: faust

How is it I don't understand a single vote against me in this game?

[AndrewisFTTW]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me.

WIFOM is better than nothing.

For scum.

vote: faust

How is it I don't understand a single vote against me in this game?

I'm voting you because you made a joke (?) about how WW is an IC and then quickly sheep Teproc's vote for a meta reason about how WW doesn't make mistakes because he's an analytical townie. Scum would jump on any mistake town makes, however miniscule or inconsequential.

[jotheonah]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me.

WIFOM is better than nothing.

For scum.

vote: faust

How is it I don't understand a single vote against me in this game?

Mine was mostly RVS, tbh. unvote

[Teproc]

Great. I guess we're past explaining votes now.

Why would you ever explain a vote? That's just teaching the mafia how you think.

You're not serious with this are you ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm with Axxle. vote: faust

This doesn't sound like an RVS vote, even if Axxle didn't really give a reason for voting.

[Teproc]

The WW setup slip issue looks like WIFOM to me.

WIFOM is better than nothing.

For scum.

vote: faust

Any non-PR related argument you make in this game is WIFOM. This is why people really shouldn't worry about WIFOM and trust their instincts about what makes things scummy. In the end, you're always going to find a town narrative for everything scum does, and you're always going to find a scum narrative for everything town does. Now night actions change this, but this is why D1 is so tough (and fun, for me at least) : it's all about getting people to talk as much as possible to get a read on them. And as much as we like to rationalize everything, those reads are still mostly based on gut. Explaining votes is not about finding an objective reason that someone is more likely to be scum, it's about getting people to talk.

[AndrewisFTTW]

And if you're voting WW because of his mistake, that means you think it was a scumslip? So now we're into the whole scumslip argument which I think is a stretch here.

[Teproc]

And if you're voting WW because of his mistake, that means you think it was a scumslip? So now we're into the whole scumslip argument which I think is a stretch here.

The argument is not a scumslip argument at all. How would a mistake about the setup be a scumslip ?

[jotheonah]

I'm with Axxle. vote: faust

This doesn't sound like an RVS vote, even if Axxle didn't really give a reason for voting.

I guess less RVS and more of a pressure vote? It's a thing I do sometimes when nothing is happening. Sometimes early, unexplicable pressure can freak someone out and make them slip up. It's always worth a try. But faust has reacted like a befuddled townie, IMO, even with three stupid votes on him, so it's a no-go.

[faust]

I'm voting you because you made a joke (?) about how WW is an IC and then quickly sheep Teproc's vote for a meta reason about how WW doesn't make mistakes because he's an analytical townie. Scum would jump on any mistake town makes, however miniscule or inconsequential.

I disagree that scum usually jumps on town mistakes. And we're not "jumping" him because he made a mistake, but because we believed he made that mistake on purpose to appear townie.

How exactly does my joke influence your vote?

[AndrewisFTTW]

And if you're voting WW because of his mistake, that means you think it was a scumslip? So now we're into the whole scumslip argument which I think is a stretch here.

The argument is not a scumslip argument at all. How would a mistake about the setup be a scumslip ?

Don't ask me, ask the people voting for WW.

I'm with Axxle. vote: faust

This doesn't sound like an RVS vote, even if Axxle didn't really give a reason for voting.

I guess less RVS and more of a pressure vote? It's a thing I do sometimes when nothing is happening. Sometimes early, unexplicable pressure can freak someone out and make them slip up. It's always worth a try. But faust has reacted like a befuddled townie, IMO, even with three stupid votes on him, so it's a no-go.

And how is my vote stupid?

I'm voting you because you made a joke (?) about how WW is an IC and then quickly sheep Teproc's vote for a meta reason about how WW doesn't make mistakes because he's an analytical townie. Scum would jump on any mistake town makes, however miniscule or inconsequential.

I disagree that scum usually jumps on town mistakes. And we're not "jumping" him because he made a mistake, but because we believed he made that mistake on purpose to appear townie.

How exactly does my joke influence your vote?

Ok well I disagree and still think that's a stretch. Your joke doesn't seem like a joke. It almost looks like your next post was going to be "townslip!"

[Teproc]

And if you're voting WW because of his mistake, that means you think it was a scumslip? So now we're into the whole scumslip argument which I think is a stretch here.

The argument is not a scumslip argument at all. How would a mistake about the setup be a scumslip ?

Don't ask me, ask the people voting for WW.

You do understand I'm voting for WW, right ?

I can't actually see how you would think this is a scumslip argument. Are you reading this thread or just dropping in to make sure you appear to be active ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

And if you're voting WW because of his mistake, that means you think it was a scumslip? So now we're into the whole scumslip argument which I think is a stretch here.

The argument is not a scumslip argument at all. How would a mistake about the setup be a scumslip ?

Don't ask me, ask the people voting for WW.

You do understand I'm voting for WW, right ?

I can't actually see how you would think this is a scumslip argument. Are you reading this thread or just dropping in to make sure you appear to be active ?

Well let me reread to make sure I have this right...

It wasn't forced, I'm just really stupid about not reading the setup of these games thoroughly, and then I realized that it really didn't make any sense anyway. 

This is not true at all ! Or a tleast I don't remember it being. WW is in the "analytical townie" category in my eyes, exactly the kind of guy that does read the setup.

vote: Witherweaver

Ok. So you're voting for WW because you think he made that "mistake" on purpose like faust says? You can categorize WW all you want, but I have to read setups over and over and over again to make sure I completely understand everything, and then I still ask dumb questions before fully thinking them through. In this way, I can relate to what WW is going through right now and I don't think this argument has any merit.

Why would I ever feel the need to drop in just to appear active? When have I ever been inactive? Even when I'm on the road with no phone, no computer, and inbetween hotels that may or may not have a business center I'm more active than some people. There's another argument that doesn't have any merit.

[Teproc]

I'm simply dumbfounded that you thought the votes on WW were about a scumslip when they were clearly not, as you just saw by, you know, actually reading them.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm voting you because you made a joke (?) about how WW is an IC and then quickly sheep Teproc's vote for a meta reason about how WW doesn't make mistakes because he's an analytical townie. Scum would jump on any mistake town makes, however miniscule or inconsequential.

I disagree that scum usually jumps on town mistakes.

Why wouldn't scum jump on town mistakes?

[faust]

I disagree that scum usually jumps on town mistakes. And we're not "jumping" him because he made a mistake, but because we believed he made that mistake on purpose to appear townie.

How exactly does my joke influence your vote?

Ok well I disagree and still think that's a stretch. Your joke doesn't seem like a joke. It almost looks like your next post was going to be "townslip!"

I have no idea what you are trying to tell me (or anyone else, for that matter) with the last two sentences. What are you talking about with this "townslip"?

[faust]

I'm voting you because you made a joke (?) about how WW is an IC and then quickly sheep Teproc's vote for a meta reason about how WW doesn't make mistakes because he's an analytical townie. Scum would jump on any mistake town makes, however miniscule or inconsequential.

I disagree that scum usually jumps on town mistakes.

Why wouldn't scum jump on town mistakes?

Why would they? How do you construct a case against someone based on a mistake they made?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm simply dumbfounded that you thought the votes on WW were about a scumslip when they were clearly not, as you just saw by, you know, actually reading them.

Ok sorry. Jeez.

I disagree that scum usually jumps on town mistakes. And we're not "jumping" him because he made a mistake, but because we believed he made that mistake on purpose to appear townie.

How exactly does my joke influence your vote?

Ok well I disagree and still think that's a stretch. Your joke doesn't seem like a joke. It almost looks like your next post was going to be "townslip!"

I have no idea what you are trying to tell me (or anyone else, for that matter) with the last two sentences. What are you talking about with this "townslip"?

Ok here it is:

Why would they? How do you construct a case against someone based on a mistake they made?

In general, you could accuse them of being scum playing the newbie card/coached scum/scum not paying as much attention to the setup as town would, etc. but it depends on the mistake in question.

[faust]

So Andrew, you're implying that I tried to paint WW as townie? If so, then why would I vote for him soon afterwards? Maybe it's better to focus on the things I actually did instead of the things I might have done.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I guess I accidentally deleted my response to that second question there. I'll try again. Here's the quote in question:

And I see WW has made a setup mistake in his house QT. I guess that means we have three ICs now? Great.

First of all you say that WW made a setup mistake, not that what he said sounded forced (by the way nobody except people in his house know exactly what he said, so how can you even suggest it was forced? Just because ADK said so?). You imply that because he made a setup mistake, he's an IC. Thus this post is simply "WW townslipped". At least that's what I got out of it.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So Andrew, you're implying that I tried to paint WW as townie? If so, then why would I vote for him soon afterwards? Maybe it's better to focus on the things I actually did instead of the things I might have done.

Like I said, WIFOM benefits scum more than town. If there's an opportunity to throw town for a loop, I don't see why scum wouldn't take it.

[faust]

I guess I accidentally deleted my response to that second question there. I'll try again. Here's the quote in question:

And I see WW has made a setup mistake in his house QT. I guess that means we have three ICs now? Great.

First of all you say that WW made a setup mistake, not that what he said sounded forced (by the way nobody except people in his house know exactly what he said, so how can you even suggest it was forced? Just because ADK said so?). You imply that because he made a setup mistake, he's an IC. Thus this post is simply "WW townslipped". At least that's what I got out of it.

It's a joke, nothing more than a joke. Teproc already explained that, why do you keep acting as though it was serious?

[jotheonah]

Robz has been awfully quiet, for a Robz. And his opening salvo felt off to me. (Two ICs! how exciting!)

vote: Robz

[AndrewisFTTW]

I guess I accidentally deleted my response to that second question there. I'll try again. Here's the quote in question:

And I see WW has made a setup mistake in his house QT. I guess that means we have three ICs now? Great.

First of all you say that WW made a setup mistake, not that what he said sounded forced (by the way nobody except people in his house know exactly what he said, so how can you even suggest it was forced? Just because ADK said so?). You imply that because he made a setup mistake, he's an IC. Thus this post is simply "WW townslipped". At least that's what I got out of it.

It's a joke, nothing more than a joke. Teproc already explained that, why do you keep acting as though it was serious?

Maybe it is a joke and maybe it isn't, that's not important. But I do think it's a weird post which is worth something. Why are you and Teproc tag teaming?

[AndrewisFTTW]

And just to be clear, joth please don't call my vote "stupid". I have what I see as a legitimate reason for my vote and even if I didn't see someone else's vote as legitimate, which happens all the time, I would never call it stupid. That's just disrespectful.

[jotheonah]

Sorry to offend. To be fair, I was also calling my vote stupid. All I meant was saying that from faust's perspective, he had three inexplicable votes on him (Axxle's, mine, yours) and wasn't acting tilted. This doesn't mean he's town by any means. It just means that if he is scum, a small amount of largely unexplained pressure failed to draw him out.

[mail-mi]

Witherweaver is more the type of guy that reads the setup. And hey, good enough for an early day1 vote. vote: Witherweaver

[A Drowned Kernel]

I believe the Rush was just flavor and the actual assignments to houses was random.  ash can you verify this?  Also, asherksy loves claiming, and I think he'd be more likely to make a setup that favors claiming than otherwise.  But that's not a reason to claim, just not a reason not to claim.

I always got the impression that ash was against claiming but you probably know him better than I do, I think I might be basing this off a comment from Super Mario Bros where he said that any setup where mass claiming on day one was a good idea was broken.

[A Drowned Kernel]

And if you're voting WW because of his mistake, that means you think it was a scumslip? So now we're into the whole scumslip argument which I think is a stretch here.

No, I think it's a deliberately made townslip made by scum in order to seem townie. There's a big difference.

[yuma]

having created setups with ash before I would say he designs setups that generally punish individual claims early, but can be helped by mass claims later.... which is to say that he designs setups well as I agree any setup that offers a significant advantage to town via claiming early probably isn't the best designed setup...

that said, ash knows I know this and the one thing I think ash dislikes most of all is playing WIFOM the mod, so I don't really see the point of speculating all that much about it.

my vote is to not claim houses or anything else until there is a compelling reason to do so... lack of a bad reason does not count as a compelling reason to do so.

I am still ok with my WW vote. I could vote for teproc, getting a scummy read from him

[Axxle]

My vote on faust was because I didn't realize it was a joke.

I think I like my vote there still though.

[A Drowned Kernel]

My vote on faust was because I didn't realize it was a joke.

I'm glad I'm not the only one, but I do believe him when he says that it was. Still pretty null on him though.

[Teproc]

I could vote for teproc, getting a scummy read from him

Care to elaborate ?

[yuma]

no. not at the moment. if it turns more into a read than a vibe then maybe I will

[Witherweaver]

I'm mostly null on the interactions that have come from ADK's initial post about me.

I get a slight town impression from Andrewis.  I don't think he would be offering up a defense as scum.

I get a slight town impression from ADK, because he seems a lot different than the scum!ADK of House of Cards, where he was very much hedging with all his statements and just kind of around as a background presence. 

The people chiming in and/or voting on the topic would probably do the same as town or scum, so I don't get any read from this.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I'm at work so I can't post anything substantial, but I get a super town read from ADK. He's acting a lot different than his house of cards scum play. I think ww was right I that read.

That being said, I don't think the wagon against him is all the strong. He slipped, with something, granted he shouldn't have slipped on, but I don't think one example is him trying to trick us into thinking he's town.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.3:

yuma (1):  WW
WW (5):  yuma, ADK, Teproc, Faust, mail-mi
Andrew (1):  Archetype
Robz (1):  joth
Faust (2):  Axxle, Andrew

Not Voting (4): Robz888, chairs, Delirious Deleuze, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[ashersky]

I believe the Rush was just flavor and the actual assignments to houses was random.  ash can you verify this?

The method for House assignments is closed.

[Witherweaver]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

How do you know the rush chairs are players and not just some flavor/roleplaying entity that Ash came up with?

Bumping this question to ADK.  Are you the "rush chair"?

[Robz888]

Robz has been awfully quiet, for a Robz. And his opening salvo felt off to me. (Two ICs! how exciting!)

vote: Robz

I have zero time for this game right now, but man! All your hunches about me are always wrong!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

How do you know the rush chairs are players and not just some flavor/roleplaying entity that Ash came up with?

Bumping this question to ADK.  Are you the "rush chair"?

I'm guessing they are players because a certain person in my house said he picked me and the others specifically.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Bumping this question to ADK.  Are you the "rush chair"?

I'm not claiming anything with regards to that but the emphasis ash put on "selling yourself" in the pregame made me assume that we were being drafted by other players.

[yuma]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

How do you know the rush chairs are players and not just some flavor/roleplaying entity that Ash came up with?

Bumping this question to ADK.  Are you the "rush chair"?

What purpose is this question supposed to serve?

[Witherweaver]

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

How do you know the rush chairs are players and not just some flavor/roleplaying entity that Ash came up with?

Bumping this question to ADK.  Are you the "rush chair"?

What purpose is this question supposed to serve?

Because if he is, then he would know if what he said is correct.  If he's not, then he's either just making assumptions or has extra knowledge of the setup.

It could have been clear to everyone how it worked.  It wasn't to me, but I haven't played many games and never with this " house" mechanic.  But EFHW said she thought the pledging was just flavor.

[yuma]

Because if he is, then he would know if what he said is correct.  If he's not, then he's either just making assumptions or has extra knowledge of the setup.

It could have been clear to everyone how it worked.  It wasn't to me, but I haven't played many games and never with this " house" mechanic.  But EFHW said she thought the pledging was just flavor.

No one has played with this mechanic before. And EFHW wouldn't know because she and chairs weren't drafted so her guess is speculation compared to others who were drafted.

However, from the setup and from what has been said thus far I think it is pretty clear how it worked. There are 14 players in the game. 2 were made ICs and weren't part of the drafting process... maybe they were at the bottom of the drafting process and then made ICs?

Regardless: 2 ICs, 12 players left. 3 players were made chairs (9 players now left), they drafted 3 players each into their frats (both town and scum were drafted I believe as frat/sor does not indicate alignment... maybe even some of the Chairs are scum, I believe that alignment was dictated before the draft, or given out regardless of draft results) for a total of 4 players in each frat. 0 players left.

What I don't understand is why you appear to be finding ADK for being suspicious for knowing what is already known...? Like you are looking for a reason to find someone suspicious.

[Witherweaver]

I missed where that was already known.

[yuma]

I missed where that was already known.

apparently you did... I don't think it is all in one place, but that is what I have put together of everything and aside from the few mysterious steps that aren't really relevant I am pretty sure that is what happened.

And I guess beyond that I don't really have a problem with you not knowing it. What I have a problem with is you being suspicious of someone for knowing how the setup works.... That just isn't a scumtell. But being suspicious of someone for knowing the setup I believe often is.

[Archetype]

I'm getting a sort of relaxed towny vibe from jotheonah.

I thought of a sort of meta argument against house claiming: while it doesn't seem like there's an obvious disadvantage to claiming, I think the fact that Ashersky was the one who made the setup makes it more likely that's there's one we just don't realize.

Another possibly relevant point if we do claim is to remember that membership in the houses isn't random, players were drafted by the rush chairs. If one or more of them was scum, that would give scum some control over which houses they're in. Again, we don't really have the information to say, but my first guess is that they would want to spread themselves out to give themselves the most information and the most opportunities to win the games.

How do you know the rush chairs are players and not just some flavor/roleplaying entity that Ash came up with?

Bumping this question to ADK.  Are you the "rush chair"?

I almost want to vote Witherweaver for this. I'll leave it at a FOS: Witherweaver though.

EFHW, are we going to claim? The worst part of rereading is having to wade through heaps of theory talk. So if we're going to house claim, we should do it ASAP.

[AndrewisFTTW]

^Yeah I don't see anything in the QT mistake but that question is kinda weird.

[Witherweaver]

I missed where that was already known.

apparently you did... I don't think it is all in one place, but that is what I have put together of everything and aside from the few mysterious steps that aren't really relevant I am pretty sure that is what happened.

And I guess beyond that I don't really have a problem with you not knowing it. What I have a problem with is you being suspicious of someone for knowing how the setup works.... That just isn't a scumtell. But being suspicious of someone for knowing the setup I believe often is.

But ADK stated how it worked before anyone else talked about it, right?  What's wrong with asking a question about that?  He didn't answer the first time, and he had posted about other stuff. So I asked again.  This all seems normal to me, and I don't get why it's an issue.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Rush chairs for ROR, OZ, and PNK have 24 hours or less to PM me.

I think this makes the whole thing pretty unambiguous.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Though looking back I also noticed that ashersky posted that role PMs would be sent out after the draft, so presumably rush chairs didn't know their alignment while they were drafting, which kind of invalidates my original point. So there's that.

[Witherweaver]

Rush chairs for ROR, OZ, and PNK have 24 hours or less to PM me.

I think this makes the whole thing pretty unambiguous.

This I did not see.  Thank you. I'm sorry for the confusion.

[Witherweaver]

Though looking back I also noticed that ashersky posted that role PMs would be sent out after the draft, so presumably rush chairs didn't know their alignment while they were drafting, which kind of invalidates my original point. So there's that.

Okay, so we have no way of knowing how scum is distributed.  It could be random or Ash could have enforced some constraint.

[yuma]

Though looking back I also noticed that ashersky posted that role PMs would be sent out after the draft, so presumably rush chairs didn't know their alignment while they were drafting, which kind of invalidates my original point. So there's that.

Okay, so we have no way of knowing how scum is distributed.  It could be random or Ash could have enforced some constraint.

I would bet the game on it being random. Yes we have no way of knowing for sure, but assuming random is the way to go here.

Anyways, WW since I am zeroing in on you ATM what are you reads currently?

[Witherweaver]

Though looking back I also noticed that ashersky posted that role PMs would be sent out after the draft, so presumably rush chairs didn't know their alignment while they were drafting, which kind of invalidates my original point. So there's that.

Okay, so we have no way of knowing how scum is distributed.  It could be random or Ash could have enforced some constraint.

I would bet the game on it being random. Yes we have no way of knowing for sure, but assuming random is the way to go here.

Anyways, WW since I am zeroing in on you ATM what are you reads currently?

I mentioned earlier I had town on ADK and Andrewis and null on the others involved in the discussion that ADK started about me.  I don't think the voting by itself is an alignment tell.

Other people haven't posted much at all yet...  Robz, DeDe just stopped in to say they're busy.  I think Arch's first post might have been a few ago to say he suspects me (been on phone can't read back easily and only glanced at it).

I'm a little suspicious about your original vote on me... Or really that you kept it. Your point seemed to be valid as theory, but did not apply in this case. It seemed like you acknowledged that but just kept your vote on me even though it was a real and not RVS vote.  And now you're kind of honing in on me and I feel like that's not your normal play style.  My exposure is limited though, so this is just a feeling right now.

Nothing has struck me as outright scummy so far.

[chairs]

Well, seems we're off to a great start already   I'm kind of miffed to be an IC, because I don't think I do a great job of leading town (and as always you guys are guaranteed to know more than I do at this point, since you know my alignment -and- yours), but I'm really curious about the two ICs mechanic and I'm wondering if it is going to be a benefit to town or not to hear our voices (since I'm worried it will drown out your own).  I'll chime in, of course, but please remember the core of all ICs - you guys know at least one more player's alignment than we do (and of course you know what's going on in your House QTs!) so don't just sheep us all Day :3

[jotheonah]

Here's something to think about, although there may not be much to it.

Assuming scum have a normal QT, they have twice as many QTs as everyone else. So maybe we should all check to see if anyone was late to chime in in their house QT (possibly because they wanted to confer with their scum team first), or posted less, or just generally seemed less engaged.

[chairs]

Here's something to think about, although there may not be much to it.

Assuming scum have a normal QT, they have twice as many QTs as everyone else. So maybe we should all check to see if anyone was late to chime in in their house QT (possibly because they wanted to confer with their scum team first), or posted less, or just generally seemed less engaged.

An interesting idea, though I'll caution putting too much weight behind that because scum were (imho) the most active in EFHW's HP Mafia QTs - at least, I know I was specifically active in my QT N0 as we tried to line up for a series of fun and easy mislynches (ultimately though I felt caught D1 and couldn't handle it well).

[A Drowned Kernel]

I could vote for teproc, getting a scummy read from him

Care to elaborate ?

no. not at the moment. if it turns more into a read than a vibe then maybe I will

I'm getting a little bit of a scumread on this whole interaction, Yuma's read on Teproc looks a lot like how scum frequently talks about their partners, i.e. giving a "scumread" that's vague enough that they can retract it later if they need to. Especially relevant since both of their votes are on the same person.

[yuma]

I could vote for teproc, getting a scummy read from him

Care to elaborate ?

no. not at the moment. if it turns more into a read than a vibe then maybe I will

I'm getting a little bit of a scumread on this whole interaction, Yuma's read on Teproc looks a lot like how scum frequently talks about their partners, i.e. giving a "scumread" that's vague enough that they can retract it later if they need to. Especially relevant since both of their votes are on the same person.

Kinda like what you are doing with me here? Except that we aren't partners... Or are we? (I mean we could be town partners, but it isn't really normal to refer to fellow townies as partners... but of the four options that one is the most likely yes?)

[yuma]

Here's something to think about, although there may not be much to it.

Assuming scum have a normal QT, they have twice as many QTs as everyone else. So maybe we should all check to see if anyone was late to chime in in their house QT (possibly because they wanted to confer with their scum team first), or posted less, or just generally seemed less engaged.

Sounds like a red herring to me. A nice fat red herring that mafia would love to waste time on and pretend that they are doing something useful...

vote: joth

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.4:

yuma (1):  WW
WW (4):  ADK, Teproc, Faust, mail-mi
Andrew (1):  Archetype
Robz (1):  joth
Faust (2):  Axxle, Andrew
joth (1):  yuma

Not Voting (4): Robz888, chairs, Delirious Deleuze, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[Axxle]

unvote

sheeping the ics!

[Axxle]

I'm town and that's not fun 

[Teproc]

I'm getting a little bit of a scumread on this whole interaction, Yuma's read on Teproc looks a lot like how scum frequently talks about their partners, i.e. giving a "scumread" that's vague enough that they can retract it later if they need to. Especially relevant since both of their votes are on the same person.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Do you think yuma's read is scummy in and of itself, or only if we're partners ? Because if it's the latter, that's basically useless at this point in the game.

Are we ready to claim QTs yet ? I'm tired of people dancing around it, and unless scum found themselves in a single QT, they already have much more info than we do.

[Axxle]

Idgaf

I'm the leader. I recruited Andrew Faust joth. We are the BEST team.

[Axxle]

Part of the sorority obv.

[Axxle]

Please be more fetch when you reveal your group. Do as I say not as I do.

[EFHW]

I think we should go ahead and claim houses.  No one has presented a compelling reason why not, and I don't like the amount of information scum have that the rest of us do not.   Axxle claimed his house.  Anyone else can claim the other houses.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Oozma Kappa is me, Witherweaver, Delirious Deleuze, and Archetype. I was not the rush chair.

[Teproc]

I was the rush chair for Omega Roar (myself, Robz, yuma, mail-mi).

As far as how the drafting process went : Axxle, myself and X (he hasn't claimed so I guess I won't disclose it) were sent player lists (I know Axxle and X were the other chairs because they weren't in the list), we ordered them and then ash made the QTs somehow. So it's not super clear exactly how it worked, we could probably figure it out by comparing lists but it's very unlikely to be worth the effort. This all happened before we received our role/alignment PMs so scum couldn't have manipulated it (unless scum somehow got their PMs before everyone else but ta would be very strange).

ADK : has your rush chairs claimed in the QT ?

[Witherweaver]

I think we should go ahead and claim houses.  No one has presented a compelling reason why not, and I don't like the amount of information scum have that the rest of us do not.   Axxle claimed his house.  Anyone else can claim the other houses.

I had thought my prize reason was a sensible caution.  But you're right, scum only has to be in two different houses to figure out who is in the third house.  The chance that all scum are in one house is probably unlikely if we accept random assignment.  And it's mostly moot now since Axxle claimed.

My house was me, DeDe, ADK, and Archetype.  The name was Oozma Kappa Fraternity.   

PPE: ADK said it already~
PPE2: Our rush chair did not claim in our thread.  It wasn't me.

[Axxle]

I was the rush chair for Omega Roar (myself, Robz, yuma, mail-mi).

As far as how the drafting process went : Axxle, myself and X (he hasn't claimed so I guess I won't disclose it) were sent player lists (I know Axxle and X were the other chairs because they weren't in the list), we ordered them and then ash made the QTs somehow. So it's not super clear exactly how it worked, we could probably figure it out by comparing lists but it's very unlikely to be worth the effort. This all happened before we received our role/alignment PMs so scum couldn't have manipulated it (unless scum somehow got their PMs before everyone else but ta would be very strange).

ADK : has your rush chairs claimed in the QT ?

Verified

[Teproc]

I'm a little suspicious of the way ADK guessed everything about how the QTs were formed without actually knowing it, but he seems mostly townie aside from that so I'm probably underestimating how easy it was to figure out.

[Axxle]

I'm a little suspicious of the way ADK guessed everything about how the QTs were formed without actually knowing it, but he seems mostly townie aside from that so I'm probably underestimating how easy it was to figure out.

its reallllly easy to guess. Basically schoolyard pick. And the mod dropped enough hints in thread.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Here's something to think about, although there may not be much to it.

Assuming scum have a normal QT, they have twice as many QTs as everyone else. So maybe we should all check to see if anyone was late to chime in in their house QT (possibly because they wanted to confer with their scum team first), or posted less, or just generally seemed less engaged.

That's an interesting theory but weird considering you were somewhat late to the party yourself.

I'm a little suspicious of the way ADK guessed everything about how the QTs were formed without actually knowing it, but he seems mostly townie aside from that so I'm probably underestimating how easy it was to figure out.

its reallllly easy to guess. Basically schoolyard pick. And the mod dropped enough hints in thread.

Yeah I thought it was pretty obvious, I don't know why there's a whole big discussion on it.

[Axxle]

Oh I'm only going to start reading from hereish unless ppl direct me to previous posts.

[EFHW]

Teproc -  Since your house won the prize, does the prize go to the House as a whole, or to an individual?  Does it take effect immediately?

[Teproc]

Teproc -  Since your house won the prize, does the prize go to the House as a whole, or to an individual?  Does it take effect immediately?

It goes to an individual. We voted on it. I guess it's up for discussion wether or not we should disclose it, but I don't see any reason to do so since what the item does is not public knowledge.

[EFHW]

Teproc -  Since your house won the prize, does the prize go to the House as a whole, or to an individual?  Does it take effect immediately?

It goes to an individual. We voted on it. I guess it's up for discussion wether or not we should disclose it, but I don't see any reason to do so since what the item does is not public knowledge.

That's fine, what to disclose is up to judgment of the people with the information.  Can you say if the voting you mentioned was for who would get to use the prize?

[Teproc]

Teproc -  Since your house won the prize, does the prize go to the House as a whole, or to an individual?  Does it take effect immediately?

It goes to an individual. We voted on it. I guess it's up for discussion wether or not we should disclose it, but I don't see any reason to do so since what the item does is not public knowledge.

That's fine, what to disclose is up to judgment of the people with the information.  Can you say if the voting you mentioned was for who would get to use the prize?

Yes.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I was the rush chair for OK.

Now that I know that the gift went to a specific person, I still think it would be beneficial to have the houses claim who got it and what it does, if they know. Chances are that someone in their house is scum, and we should assume so because we don't know how PRs were assigned. Scum would already know who has the prize, it would only be more info for town.

[EFHW]

Teproc did everyone in your house know what the prize was?  If not, then the owner shouldn't claim.

[Axxle]

Teproc did everyone in your house know what the prize was?  If not, then the owner shouldn't claim.

You're an Innocent Child, right?

[chairs]

Teproc did everyone in your house know what the prize was?  If not, then the owner shouldn't claim.

You're an Innocent Child, right?

Confirming EFHW is IC.

[Axxle]

Teproc did everyone in your house know what the prize was?  If not, then the owner shouldn't claim.

You're an Innocent Child, right?

Confirming EFHW is IC.

The Mafia are known as Human Children in this game.

VOTE: EFHW!

...

That took way too long to make my joke!

Vote: WW because wagons are fun?

[Witherweaver]

Teproc did everyone in your house know what the prize was?  If not, then the owner shouldn't claim.

You're an Innocent Child, right?

Confirming EFHW is IC.

The Mafia are known as Human Children in this game.

VOTE: EFHW!

...

That took way too long to make my joke!

Vote: WW because wagons are fun?

I disagree.

[Axxle]

I disagree.

Who should I vote for instead?

[Witherweaver]

I disagree.

Who should I vote for instead?

I really don't have any great answers at this point.  I get a weird feeling from Yuma, like he's more .. random than I would expect.  However, he did bring up a good point against jotheonah:

Here's something to think about, although there may not be much to it.

Assuming scum have a normal QT, they have twice as many QTs as everyone else. So maybe we should all check to see if anyone was late to chime in in their house QT (possibly because they wanted to confer with their scum team first), or posted less, or just generally seemed less engaged.

Sounds like a red herring to me. A nice fat red herring that mafia would love to waste time on and pretend that they are doing something useful...

vote: joth

Jotheonah's idea seems like something that could be used to fabricate a case.  And prefacing it with "Here's something to think about, although there may not be much to it."  That kind of sounds like he knows it won't be useful but wants to seem engaged. 

[Axxle]

Vote: joth

Cool. Join us!

[Axxle]

If the town votes together we win!

[mail-mi]

Teproc did everyone in your house know what the prize was?  If not, then the owner shouldn't claim.

No.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.6:

yuma (1):  WW
WW (4):  ADK, Teproc, Faust, mail-mi
Andrew (1):  Archetype
Robz (1):  joth
Faust (1):  Andrew
joth (2):  yuma, Axxle

Not Voting (4): Robz888, chairs, Delirious Deleuze, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[chairs]

Okay, so let me make sure I'm understanding the argument for joth:

1) Brings up the Neighborhood (frat/sorority) QTs and potential low posters in that as being possible scum candidates.
 -- The "pro-scum" argument here, if I understand, is that this is possibly a good way to swing in a mislynch and at the least distracts from other scumhunting.

2) ...?

Anybody have any more pro/con arguments here?

[Axxle]

Okay, so let me make sure I'm understanding the argument for joth:

1) Brings up the Neighborhood (frat/sorority) QTs and potential low posters in that as being possible scum candidates.
 -- The "pro-scum" argument here, if I understand, is that this is possibly a good way to swing in a mislynch and at the least distracts from other scumhunting.

2) ...?

Anybody have any more pro/con arguments here?

Sounds good enough for me!

chairs. your vote is your weapon. use it.

[Axxle]

Don't ask. Tell.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so let me make sure I'm understanding the argument for joth:

1) Brings up the Neighborhood (frat/sorority) QTs and potential low posters in that as being possible scum candidates.
 -- The "pro-scum" argument here, if I understand, is that this is possibly a good way to swing in a mislynch and at the least distracts from other scumhunting.

2) ...?

Anybody have any more pro/con arguments here?

I think the distracting part is more primary, and possible mislynch secondary.  Or it could lead to town-v-town arguments.  The other point is that even if the idea goes nowhere, it seems like he was proactive and involved and trying to help town.

On the other hand, it's possible he thought it was good (maybe something similar happened in another game), or it just occurred to him so he put it out there, because why not? 

[jotheonah]

Am I really the leading lynch candidate right now? Oy vey.

[jotheonah]

I'll make sure never to make an open-ended suggestion about a possible scumhunting strategy in the future. How could I not see that such a thing was anti-town?

[jotheonah]

it seems like he was proactive and involved and trying to help town.

hmm why would something seem like that?

[Teproc]

vote: jotheonah

Trying to shame people into unvoting is soemthing that I think scum is much more likely to do than town. This doesn't feel like annoyed town, it just seems forced.

[jotheonah]

Keep it up guys! This is definitely a wagon on scum! I'll help!

vote: jotheonah

[Witherweaver]

it seems like he was proactive and involved and trying to help town.

hmm why would something seem like that?

What do you mean?

[jotheonah]

it seems like he was proactive and involved and trying to help town.

hmm why would something seem like that?

What do you mean?

I mean sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and this is a ridiculous case and you should all feel bad.

[chairs]

vote: jotheonah.

Self-voting is anti-town, and I don't like the "screw you guys" vibe from

Keep it up guys! This is definitely a wagon on scum! I'll help!

vote: jotheonah

so I'm sorry if you're just legitimately frustrated Town, joth, but this is NOT the way to go about it.

[Witherweaver]

it seems like he was proactive and involved and trying to help town.

hmm why would something seem like that?

What do you mean?

I mean sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and this is a ridiculous case and you should all feel bad.

It convinced that guy jotheonah!

[chairs]

MY VOTE IS L-1.

Had to go vote count.

[chairs]

MY VOTE IS L-1.

Had to go vote count.

...wait no it's not, joth is not WW.

[jotheonah]

MY VOTE IS L-1.

Had to go vote count.

...wait no it's not, joth is not WW.

which is an important distinction since, you know, WW actually has a chance of being scum.

Unvote

vote: Witherweaver

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.7:

yuma (1):  WW
WW (4):  ADK, Faust, mail-mi, joth
Andrew (1):  Archetype
Faust (1):  Andrew
joth (4):  yuma, Axxle, Teproc, chairs

Not Voting (3): Robz888, Delirious Deleuze, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I'm definitely getting a town vibe from wither weaver. The case against him is pretty flimsy and he's been pretty active in trying to help town out.

I also don't think the case against Joth is solid at all. The case seems forced. He said one thing that he thought about and everyone jumped on him. Granted voting for himself was lame, I don't think the wagon on him made any sense.

[Teproc]

I'm definitely getting a town vibe from wither weaver. The case against him is pretty flimsy and he's been pretty active in trying to help town out.

I'm not sure what to make of his reaction to the wagon on him. I don't think I would qualify him as "active", but I don't know, it feels like he is just acting as if he's not really concerned by it. I'm not sure what this means, because he's not outright ignoring it (which I would find scummy), but he's not having a classic townie reaction to it either.

I also don't think the case against Joth is solid at all. The case seems forced. He said one thing that he thought about and everyone jumped on him. Granted voting for himself was lame, I don't think the wagon on him made any sense.

I don't think there's much to the initial case against joth, but his reaction to it is so over the top considering the small amount of pressure he initially got. He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4. Scum often feels like the pressure on them is bigger than it actually is, because they know the people voting for them are right. I also get a very fake feeling from his outrage and subsequent self vote. Pretty happy with where my vote is.

[faust]

Yeah, I don't like joth's attitude, and self-votes are always anti-town. Also Teproc makes a lot of sense.

Vote: jotheonah

[faust]

so I'm sorry if you're just legitimately frustrated Town, joth, but this is NOT the way to go about it.

He can't possibly be legitimately frustrated town. All he can be is frustrated town.

[jotheonah]

I'm definitely getting a town vibe from wither weaver. The case against him is pretty flimsy and he's been pretty active in trying to help town out.

I'm not sure what to make of his reaction to the wagon on him. I don't think I would qualify him as "active", but I don't know, it feels like he is just acting as if he's not really concerned by it. I'm not sure what this means, because he's not outright ignoring it (which I would find scummy), but he's not having a classic townie reaction to it either.

I also don't think the case against Joth is solid at all. The case seems forced. He said one thing that he thought about and everyone jumped on him. Granted voting for himself was lame, I don't think the wagon on him made any sense.

I don't think there's much to the initial case against joth, but his reaction to it is so over the top considering the small amount of pressure he initially got. He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4. Scum often feels like the pressure on them is bigger than it actually is, because they know the people voting for them are right. I also get a very fake feeling from his outrage and subsequent self vote. Pretty happy with where my vote is.

There is no way scum!me falls for that. I'm the one who is always using that exact thing as an argument to lynch people.

I don't know why I got so frustrated. I think it was residual frustration from my last game.

[jotheonah]

I'm definitely getting a town vibe from wither weaver. The case against him is pretty flimsy and he's been pretty active in trying to help town out.

I also don't think the case against Joth is solid at all. The case seems forced. He said one thing that he thought about and everyone jumped on him. Granted voting for himself was lame, I don't think the wagon on him made any sense.

thank you!

[jotheonah]

Also I don't know why people freak out so much about self-votes. If you're not near L-1 they're basically rhetorical flourishes.

[Teproc]

Also I don't know why people freak out so much about self-votes. If you're not near L-1 they're basically rhetorical flourishes.

Precisely. But you know people freak out about them. You know it makes you seem like super frustrated town. There are people like yuma that actually policy vote against them, but very often it makes people less suspicious.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I'm definitely getting a town vibe from wither weaver. The case against him is pretty flimsy and he's been pretty active in trying to help town out.

I'm not sure what to make of his reaction to the wagon on him. I don't think I would qualify him as "active", but I don't know, it feels like he is just acting as if he's not really concerned by it. I'm not sure what this means, because he's not outright ignoring it (which I would find scummy), but he's not having a classic townie reaction to it either.

I also don't think the case against Joth is solid at all. The case seems forced. He said one thing that he thought about and everyone jumped on him. Granted voting for himself was lame, I don't think the wagon on him made any sense.

I don't think there's much to the initial case against joth, but his reaction to it is so over the top considering the small amount of pressure he initially got. He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4. Scum often feels like the pressure on them is bigger than it actually is, because they know the people voting for them are right. I also get a very fake feeling from his outrage and subsequent self vote. Pretty happy with where my vote is.

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

[jotheonah]

sigh.

GUYS I'M TOWN.

[faust]

One way or the other, it's nice to get such a big wagon early on in a rather large game like this.

[jotheonah]

He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4.

Am I really the leading lynch candidate right now? Oy vey.

So I would submit to the court the difference between the statement that is being attributed to me and the question that I actually asked. I came back to the game after being gone for a little bit and saw that the whole page was people discussing lynching me. I jumped to the conclusion that I was in trouble and needed to act. I asked if I was the main candidate, because I wasn't sure if I was, it just felt that way.

[AndrewisFTTW]

sigh.

GUYS I'M TOWN.

Oh?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Actually I really do think joth is town. Reacting strongly to a quick wagon isn't really indicative of anything.

[AndrewisFTTW]

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

Speaking of forced, this post gives me the heebie jeebies. I'm gonna reread real quick.

[Witherweaver]

Also I don't know why people freak out so much about self-votes. If you're not near L-1 they're basically rhetorical flourishes.

My guess would be because it doesn't help town at all.  It kind of plants doubt in your mind on whether or not this person would actually do this as scum.  But why would scum want to bring more focus on themselves?  So maybe they're trying to make you think they're town.    But why would a town actually do that at all?

Plus, if there was actually anything going on before a self-vote, it's now kind of in the background as you're trying to figure out what this was supposed to mean, if anything.  Whereas the self-vote could have just not happened at all.

[Witherweaver]

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

Speaking of forced, this post gives me the heebie jeebies. I'm gonna reread real quick.

Why is that?  It sounds like the way DeDe has posted before.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

As far as my DD reread went, there wasn't much there. There was this:

I was the rush chair for OK.

Now that I know that the gift went to a specific person, I still think it would be beneficial to have the houses claim who got it and what it does, if they know. Chances are that someone in their house is scum, and we should assume so because we don't know how PRs were assigned. Scum would already know who has the prize, it would only be more info for town.

I don't understand why we would possibly want to out the person that got the prize. Does anybody else see this as a strange thought? DD's reads have all been town with the exception of joth, who was a town a read until DD saw Teproc's case on him. Thus he switched his vote as mentioned above in the other really weird post that stood out to me.

So again, not much to go on mostly because of the lack of posts but the content is weird. Also wouldn't it make sense to have one scum be a rush chair? I think so.

vote: DD

[Witherweaver]

He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4.

Am I really the leading lynch candidate right now? Oy vey.

So I would submit to the court the difference between the statement that is being attributed to me and the question that I actually asked. I came back to the game after being gone for a little bit and saw that the whole page was people discussing lynching me. I jumped to the conclusion that I was in trouble and needed to act. I asked if I was the main candidate, because I wasn't sure if I was, it just felt that way.

But, like, four posts up was the latest vote count.  And most of the posts were Axxle being.. uh.. something.  I think "the whole page was people discussing lynching me" is an exaggeration. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

Also I don't know why people freak out so much about self-votes. If you're not near L-1 they're basically rhetorical flourishes.

My guess would be because it doesn't help town at all.  It kind of plants doubt in your mind on whether or not this person would actually do this as scum.  But why would scum want to bring more focus on themselves?  So maybe they're trying to make you think they're town.    But why would a town actually do that at all?

Plus, if there was actually anything going on before a self-vote, it's now kind of in the background as you're trying to figure out what this was supposed to mean, if anything.  Whereas the self-vote could have just not happened at all.

Just say "it's WIFOM".

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

Speaking of forced, this post gives me the heebie jeebies. I'm gonna reread real quick.

Why is that?  It sounds like the way DeDe has posted before.

To me that's not an argument for anything. We can sit here and argue about meta all day but even if DD is a newer player he's still aware of his meta and can adjust accordingly. It happens all the time.

[faust]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

Rush chairs didn't know their alignment until after the choosing.

[Witherweaver]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

As far as my DD reread went, there wasn't much there. There was this:

I was the rush chair for OK.

Now that I know that the gift went to a specific person, I still think it would be beneficial to have the houses claim who got it and what it does, if they know. Chances are that someone in their house is scum, and we should assume so because we don't know how PRs were assigned. Scum would already know who has the prize, it would only be more info for town.

I don't understand why we would possibly want to out the person that got the prize. Does anybody else see this as a strange thought? DD's reads have all been town with the exception of joth, who was a town a read until DD saw Teproc's case on him. Thus he switched his vote as mentioned above in the other really weird post that stood out to me.

So again, not much to go on mostly because of the lack of posts but the content is weird. Also wouldn't it make sense to have one scum be a rush chair? I think so.

vote: DD

I think we figured out that the rush chairs didn't know alignments before choosing.  So they wouldn't know they were scum and wouldn't know who to pick. 

Also, the last point would rely on Ash choosing who was scum based on how the houses worked out, instead of randomly. 

PPE: 2

[Teproc]

He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4.

Am I really the leading lynch candidate right now? Oy vey.

So I would submit to the court the difference between the statement that is being attributed to me and the question that I actually asked. I came back to the game after being gone for a little bit and saw that the whole page was people discussing lynching me. I jumped to the conclusion that I was in trouble and needed to act. I asked if I was the main candidate, because I wasn't sure if I was, it just felt that way.

You do realize this only further makes my point right ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

Rush chairs didn't know their alignment until after the choosing.

Ok thanks. I had a feeling that was probably wrong.

[Witherweaver]

Also I don't know why people freak out so much about self-votes. If you're not near L-1 they're basically rhetorical flourishes.

My guess would be because it doesn't help town at all.  It kind of plants doubt in your mind on whether or not this person would actually do this as scum.  But why would scum want to bring more focus on themselves?  So maybe they're trying to make you think they're town.    But why would a town actually do that at all?

Plus, if there was actually anything going on before a self-vote, it's now kind of in the background as you're trying to figure out what this was supposed to mean, if anything.  Whereas the self-vote could have just not happened at all.

Just say "it's WIFOM".

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

Speaking of forced, this post gives me the heebie jeebies. I'm gonna reread real quick.

Why is that?  It sounds like the way DeDe has posted before.

To me that's not an argument for anything. We can sit here and argue about meta all day but even if DD is a newer player he's still aware of his meta and can adjust accordingly. It happens all the time.

Okay, but I thought you were saying DeDe sounded forced.. so, not natural; he had to contrive whatever he was saying.  I was just saying I didn't get the "forced" vibe, it seemed just normal to me.  So I was asking why you did.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

As far as my DD reread went, there wasn't much there. There was this:

I was the rush chair for OK.

Now that I know that the gift went to a specific person, I still think it would be beneficial to have the houses claim who got it and what it does, if they know. Chances are that someone in their house is scum, and we should assume so because we don't know how PRs were assigned. Scum would already know who has the prize, it would only be more info for town.

I don't understand why we would possibly want to out the person that got the prize. Does anybody else see this as a strange thought? DD's reads have all been town with the exception of joth, who was a town a read until DD saw Teproc's case on him. Thus he switched his vote as mentioned above in the other really weird post that stood out to me.

So again, not much to go on mostly because of the lack of posts but the content is weird. Also wouldn't it make sense to have one scum be a rush chair? I think so.

vote: DD

I mean, I get your vote. I haven't posted a lot, and it was all town reads, but seeing as the game is just starting out I haven't gotten a strong read from anyone yet.

Why it would be good to out who got the prizes: Because scum would most likely already know this. At the very best it gives town more information, it's basically a claim that someone couldn't fake too. The doctor, if there is one, could protect this person if the prize is good. There's no real downside here.

As far as scum for a rush chair, I think he means Ash would do it not randomly, but I just don't think he would. This is all speculation though, so I'm not really going to entertain it much.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Okay, but I thought you were saying DeDe sounded forced.. so, not natural; he had to contrive whatever he was saying.  I was just saying I didn't get the "forced" vibe, it seemed just normal to me.  So I was asking why you did.

Yes, to me it sounds like he forced that post. But that's just my opinion.

[Axxle]

Keep it up guys! This is definitely a wagon on scum! I'll help!

vote: jotheonah

Omg, the post before this I hoped that joth would self vote... And he did. Ilu joth!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

As far as my DD reread went, there wasn't much there. There was this:

I was the rush chair for OK.

Now that I know that the gift went to a specific person, I still think it would be beneficial to have the houses claim who got it and what it does, if they know. Chances are that someone in their house is scum, and we should assume so because we don't know how PRs were assigned. Scum would already know who has the prize, it would only be more info for town.

I don't understand why we would possibly want to out the person that got the prize. Does anybody else see this as a strange thought? DD's reads have all been town with the exception of joth, who was a town a read until DD saw Teproc's case on him. Thus he switched his vote as mentioned above in the other really weird post that stood out to me.

So again, not much to go on mostly because of the lack of posts but the content is weird. Also wouldn't it make sense to have one scum be a rush chair? I think so.

vote: DD

I mean, I get your vote. I haven't posted a lot, and it was all town reads, but seeing as the game is just starting out I haven't gotten a strong read from anyone yet.

Why it would be good to out who got the prizes: Because scum would most likely already know this. At the very best it gives town more information, it's basically a claim that someone couldn't fake too. The doctor, if there is one, could protect this person if the prize is good. There's no real downside here.

As far as scum for a rush chair, I think he means Ash would do it not randomly, but I just don't think he would. This is all speculation though, so I'm not really going to entertain it much.

That's assuming there's scum in every house and assuming there's a doctor and assuming this extra tidbit of information will benefit town somehow. I'm not convinced.

[Delirious Deleuze]

What's the downside to claiming it? Odds are that there is scum in the house that got the prize.

[jotheonah]

He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4.

Am I really the leading lynch candidate right now? Oy vey.

So I would submit to the court the difference between the statement that is being attributed to me and the question that I actually asked. I came back to the game after being gone for a little bit and saw that the whole page was people discussing lynching me. I jumped to the conclusion that I was in trouble and needed to act. I asked if I was the main candidate, because I wasn't sure if I was, it just felt that way.

You do realize this only further makes my point right ?

Oh, I forgot. All peope who don't want to be lynched are scum.

[jotheonah]

Keep it up guys! This is definitely a wagon on scum! I'll help!

vote: jotheonah

Omg, the post before this I hoped that joth would self vote... And he did. Ilu joth!

You act like I do it all the time. That was my first self-vote since the early early days.

[jotheonah]

Maybe I never have. I just did a search and couldn't find it.

[Axxle]

Joth, out of *everyone* on this site, knows the implications of self voting. And he knows some of us know that (me, robz, yuma?) but he also knows that the newer players would not have remembered what happened in whatever early mafia game that was and would likely react how they did there.

I don't think scum Joth would take this risk.

unvote

vote: DD

Please stop white knighting town and start bussing partners please!

[Axxle]

Keep it up guys! This is definitely a wagon on scum! I'll help!

vote: jotheonah

Omg, the post before this I hoped that joth would self vote... And he did. Ilu joth!

You act like I do it all the time. That was my first self-vote since the early early days.

I know you don't do it all the time, I just hoped beyond hope that you would harken back to it. And you did!

[Axxle]

Maybe I never have. I just did a search and couldn't find it.

I think you just threatened to? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2774.msg47237#msg47237

[jotheonah]

good times. that is indeed what I was thinking of. and I was town there, against all odds.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Please stop white knighting town and start bussing partners please!

What does this mean?

[EFHW]

The thing about PR's is that the owner of the PR is the best judge of whether to share the information or not.  There were town people in that house too, and if they think the person should claim based on what they know, they can say so.  Those of us not in that house don't know what's going on and can't really make an informed decision about whether or not the owner should claim.

[Witherweaver]

What's the downside to claiming it? Odds are that there is scum in the house that got the prize.

Eh, that's not necessarily true. We don't know anything about the setup.  It even says there could be multiple factions.

[Witherweaver]

The thing about PR's is that the owner of the PR is the best judge of whether to share the information or not.  There were town people in that house too, and if they think the person should claim based on what they know, they can say so.  Those of us not in that house don't know what's going on and can't really make an informed decision about whether or not the owner should claim.

Yes, I agree with this.

I get a good town vibe from the EFHW person.

[Axxle]

Please stop white knighting town and start bussing partners please!

What does this mean?

White knighting town is something scum do a lot of times. They know who is town so they just keep harking that they are pretty sure that town is town and when that person is mislynched they say 'I told you so' and look like they have good reads.

Bussing partners I think you already know. But that's when scum lynches their partner to make it look like they're town.

[chairs]

The thing about PR's is that the owner of the PR is the best judge of whether to share the information or not.  There were town people in that house too, and if they think the person should claim based on what they know, they can say so.  Those of us not in that house don't know what's going on and can't really make an informed decision about whether or not the owner should claim.

Yes, I agree with this.

I get a good town vibe from the EFHW person.

...

...
.
.

you mean you get a town vibe from the MOD-CONFIRMED TOWN?

[Teproc]

The thing about PR's is that the owner of the PR is the best judge of whether to share the information or not.  There were town people in that house too, and if they think the person should claim based on what they know, they can say so.  Those of us not in that house don't know what's going on and can't really make an informed decision about whether or not the owner should claim.

Yes, I agree with this.

I get a good town vibe from the EFHW person.

...

...
.
.

you mean you get a town vibe from the MOD-CONFIRMED TOWN?

I am reasonably certain that was a joke. Good thing Robz isn't in this game or he would say W is an IC now.

Wait...

[Teproc]

Request a prod on Robz and yuma. Come on, fellow Omega people ! Robz especially, you actually have 2 posts in this game, that's unacceptable.

[Witherweaver]

The thing about PR's is that the owner of the PR is the best judge of whether to share the information or not.  There were town people in that house too, and if they think the person should claim based on what they know, they can say so.  Those of us not in that house don't know what's going on and can't really make an informed decision about whether or not the owner should claim.

Yes, I agree with this.

I get a good town vibe from the EFHW person.

...

...
.
.

you mean you get a town vibe from the MOD-CONFIRMED TOWN?

<thatsthejoke.jpg>

But seriously, she's correct here. 

[Witherweaver]

Well, with the caveat that the people in that house that did not get the prize shouldn't say here whether or not they think the person should claim, because that would be an indication that that individual did not get the prize, and scum could POE who got it.  They should have that discussion in their private QT.

But, I thought someone said that the entire house didn't get the info on what it did, and only the individual received it.  So, really that individual knows best.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Please stop white knighting town and start bussing partners please!

What does this mean?

White knighting town is something scum do a lot of times. They know who is town so they just keep harking that they are pretty sure that town is town and when that person is mislynched they say 'I told you so' and look like they have good reads.

Bussing partners I think you already know. But that's when scum lynches their partner to make it look like they're town.

Makes sense! Thanks!

Well, with the caveat that the people in that house that did not get the prize shouldn't say here whether or not they think the person should claim, because that would be an indication that that individual did not get the prize, and scum could POE who got it.  They should have that discussion in their private QT.

But, I thought someone said that the entire house didn't get the info on what it did, and only the individual received it.  So, really that individual knows best.

True, but the QTs are closed until night, so there's that problem.

[Witherweaver]

Please stop white knighting town and start bussing partners please!

What does this mean?

White knighting town is something scum do a lot of times. They know who is town so they just keep harking that they are pretty sure that town is town and when that person is mislynched they say 'I told you so' and look like they have good reads.

Bussing partners I think you already know. But that's when scum lynches their partner to make it look like they're town.

Makes sense! Thanks!

Well, with the caveat that the people in that house that did not get the prize shouldn't say here whether or not they think the person should claim, because that would be an indication that that individual did not get the prize, and scum could POE who got it.  They should have that discussion in their private QT.

But, I thought someone said that the entire house didn't get the info on what it did, and only the individual received it.  So, really that individual knows best.

True, but the QTs are closed until night, so there's that problem.

But why do you need to know it today?

Here, look at it this way.  Getting a prize is, I assume, like getting a PR (or an additional one).  In an RMM game, we probably all have a PR.  But none of us know what the others are.  Announcing what the prize is, what it does, and who has it would be like someone claiming a PR.  And that shouldn't be done lightly.  Generally, mass claiming is bad and helps scum more than town.

Unless for some reason, the item's function is such that it's a good idea to let everyone know.  But the only person that knows that is the person that has it.  So it should be up to them, just like claiming a PR.

Right?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. I retract my opinion.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Request a prod on Robz and yuma. Come on, fellow Omega people ! Robz especially, you actually have 2 posts in this game, that's unacceptable.

It's also been a while since we heard from Archetype.

I don't have a strong town read on Joth, but I don't have much of a town read on anyone at this point. He's a ways down my list of people I'd like to lynch. I'm getting a little bit of a scum read from DeDe, defending other players excessively is exactly what he called me out on in HoC when I was scum.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.8:

yuma (1):  WW
WW (3):  ADK, mail-mi, joth
Andrew (1):  Archetype
joth (5):  yuma, Teproc, chairs, faust, DD
DD (2):  Andrew, Axxle

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[ashersky]

Also, as fair warning to all players, the N1 Scare Game will start immediately after Day 1 ends.  All Game details will be posted in this thread, but players should do the challenge in their QTs.

[ashersky]

Request a prod on Robz and yuma.

These players have been prodded.

[Axxle]

Vote Count 1.8:

yuma (1):  WW
WW (3):  ADK, mail-mi, joth
Andrew (1):  Archetype
joth (5):  yuma, Teproc, chairs, faust, DD
DD (2):  Andrew, DD

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

As much as I'd love DD to help lynch himself, I'm the one voting for him.

[ashersky]

As much as I'd love DD to help lynch himself, I'm the one voting for him.

Thanks.  Modified.

[yuma]

Request a prod on Robz and yuma.

These players have been prodded.

ash told me to say something... so

"something"

but seriously. I am on at work this week and didn't have time to post much of anything except where I absolutely had to and this might be all I can post today depending on what the rest of my night looks like.

But comparing me to Robz I don't think is fair at all. Prior to yesterday I was completely and totally active, far more than I would say the majority of other players. But that isn't really the point.

The point is that I am perfectly fine with my vote where it is. My vote was a for a good reason. Maybe not a good enough reason to lynch in isolation. Add in the self-vote and I am even more happy with it.

More to the point though is that I generally see townies who receive suspicion on them try and determine if the suspicion on them is coming from town or scum. joth doesn't really seem interested in trying to scumhunt based off his wagon, or really scum hunting in general. He is voting for WW, but I don't know why... I guess because he has a chance of being scum. Great lead!

However, I do agree with someone... WW I think said it that joth's reaction isn't really scummy. Reactions to wagons are rarely a good way to read someone because people are always going to react to a wagon. Really I think the only times reactions have yielded results are when someone has done the "that is a good point..." reaction. But his reaction isn't townie either. It is null so doesn't nullify my other read on him.

[Robz888]

I got prodded, so, here's a post.

Unfortunately, I can't do more right now! Real life is REALLY crazy right now. It's coming to an end soon, though (my business, not my life).



****
The above was originally posted in Forum Survivor. That's how out of things I am right now.

[Witherweaver]

Request a prod on Robz and yuma.

These players have been prodded.

ash told me to say something... so

"something"

but seriously. I am on at work this week and didn't have time to post much of anything except where I absolutely had to and this might be all I can post today depending on what the rest of my night looks like.

But comparing me to Robz I don't think is fair at all. Prior to yesterday I was completely and totally active, far more than I would say the majority of other players. But that isn't really the point.

The point is that I am perfectly fine with my vote where it is. My vote was a for a good reason. Maybe not a good enough reason to lynch in isolation. Add in the self-vote and I am even more happy with it.

More to the point though is that I generally see townies who receive suspicion on them try and determine if the suspicion on them is coming from town or scum. joth doesn't really seem interested in trying to scumhunt based off his wagon, or really scum hunting in general. He is voting for WW, but I don't know why... I guess because he has a chance of being scum. Great lead!

However, I do agree with someone... WW I think said it that joth's reaction isn't really scummy. Reactions to wagons are rarely a good way to read someone because people are always going to react to a wagon. Really I think the only times reactions have yielded results are when someone has done the "that is a good point..." reaction. But his reaction isn't townie either. It is null so doesn't nullify my other read on him.

Actually I think it was Andrewis.  But what's wrong with looking at reactions?  Everyone will react to a wagon, yes, but the logic that scum will react more strongly because they know theyre guilty doesn't seem faulty.  Then again, maybe scum is more conscious so they'll watch what they say more.

Maybe I get it.  But you've said a few times now that some things are scummy and some are not indicative either way, and I don't quite get the reasons.

[yuma]

A lot of it is just past experiences. I have seen wagon and wagon go through to a mislynch on town based off the idea that "X, reacted to a wagon strongly" or something along those lines.

My premise is what joth said above... town doesn't want to get lynched as much as scum does. No one wants to get lynched. People will always react strongly to a wagon--unless they just don't care, but that is a whole different situation. So I am not really interested in anaylzing how someone "reacts" whether it be strongly or annoyed or irritated or whatever.

I am a bit more interested in the subtler things. What else did they do in response? Did they analyze the wagon on them? Did they redirect the focus to somewhere else? Did the self-meta reference? And maybe even more important how did others react to the wagon? (Might be more important later in the game than it is now...) Things like that. So when I look at some of those specific things I see a little bit of a scummy response from joth (the self vote is obviously not a subtle response, but that is a whole different conversation as well, and one that I think you brought up perfect points about). But it is not because he responded aggressively or negatively. Nearly everyone will do that when faced with a wagon...

[yuma]

And I am not saying I am definitively right in this situation. Just rather that in the past I have had the expectation that "X and X is something mafia does" only to be proven wrong by a flip. So I have tried to not rely on super specific generalizations of what mafia will or won't do...

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

[A Drowned Kernel]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

I don't see anything in reactions, unless I do.

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

I don't see anything in reactions, unless I do.

Not what I said at all, actually.

[Teproc]

@Robz and yuma. Fine. And yeah yuma, you've been active and it's not fair comparing you to Robz, but I wasn't really doing that. I just got reminded of Robz's existence and realized at the same time that we hadn't heard from you in a while. I forgot how much your availability changed from one week to another, sorry.

I don't get what you're saying about joth's reaction at all. Of course no one wants to be lynched, but don't you agree that scum tends to feel the pressure earlier and stronger than town ? It's certainly been my experience as scum. joth's reaction was disproportionate to the actual pressure, AND his posts felt forced to me (which isn't an argument of course, just the way I perceived it).

[Witherweaver]

A lot of it is just past experiences. I have seen wagon and wagon go through to a mislynch on town based off the idea that "X, reacted to a wagon strongly" or something along those lines.

My premise is what joth said above... town doesn't want to get lynched as much as scum does. No one wants to get lynched. People will always react strongly to a wagon--unless they just don't care, but that is a whole different situation. So I am not really interested in anaylzing how someone "reacts" whether it be strongly or annoyed or irritated or whatever.

I am a bit more interested in the subtler things. What else did they do in response? Did they analyze the wagon on them? Did they redirect the focus to somewhere else? Did the self-meta reference? And maybe even more important how did others react to the wagon? (Might be more important later in the game than it is now...) Things like that. So when I look at some of those specific things I see a little bit of a scummy response from joth (the self vote is obviously not a subtle response, but that is a whole different conversation as well, and one that I think you brought up perfect points about). But it is not because he responded aggressively or negatively. Nearly everyone will do that when faced with a wagon...

Okay I see, thanks.

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

I don't see anything in reactions, unless I do.

By the way just because I'm curious, what are you trying gain by posting sarcastic comments like this?

[Witherweaver]

I think something is wrong about this:

Joth, out of *everyone* on this site, knows the implications of self voting. And he knows some of us know that (me, robz, yuma?) but he also knows that the newer players would not have remembered what happened in whatever early mafia game that was and would likely react how they did there.

I don't think scum Joth would take this risk.

unvote

vote: DD

Please stop white knighting town and start bussing partners please!

Well, first, I don't buy this reasoning.  You could easily say town Joth wouldn't want to take this risk, either.  And town Joth would know that it would be at best a distraction to the town.  This seems like Axxle is just choosing to assign a town read to Joth, instead of genuinely having one.  Maybe because continuing to push a wagon would be too conspicuous?  In any case, Axxle's post here feels artificial.

Vote: Axxle

[Axxle]

Why would I do that as scum?

[Witherweaver]

Why would I do that as scum?

You need to have town reads.  You can't just look like you want to lynch everyone.

[A Drowned Kernel]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

I don't see anything in reactions, unless I do.

By the way just because I'm curious, what are you trying gain by posting sarcastic comments like this?

Just making a joke, there's nothing really in it. That said, you got awfully defensive about it.

Axxle might be the closest thing I have to a town read so far, so I find it interesting that my strongest scumread is voting for him.

[Axxle]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

I don't see anything in reactions, unless I do.

By the way just because I'm curious, what are you trying gain by posting sarcastic comments like this?

Just making a joke, there's nothing really in it. That said, you got awfully defensive about it.

What he said was a very town thing to say. He's trying to find your motivation, actually scumhunting.

(Andrew's my strongest townread btw)

[Axxle]

Why would I do that as scum?

You need to have town reads.  You can't just look like you want to lynch everyone.

yeah... but why the leading wagon that *I* revived/started? That seems ass backwards to me.

[yuma]

Well now that the RMM game is over, I might as well claim here as well once again since it worked pretty well there (up to the point of getting completely tricked by scum... but it did work to show that I was town and helped lead town, also this should help WIFOM mafia once again)...

I am a Dayvig!

not even kinda joking about this....

I am claiming based off my previous experience and because despite what ash said in the QC from the RMM game I believe this particular role is best served by having town input. It also forces town to decide if they want to kill me or not and need to worry about me shooting them. Last game I had two scum in my sights out of three players I put up for town, so my reads seem to be getting better.

I do not claim IC status equivalent of chairs or EFHW, but I do hope that my claim makes players see me as townier... although there were some doubters last game for a while.

And as I said it does WIFOM mafia. Do they target me out of fear of being killed with a shot they can't control instead of one of the ICs?

anyways I like our chances of hitting scum today as three of us should be out of the lynch pool (EFHW, chairs and me)

[mail-mi]

Well now that the RMM game is over, I might as well claim here as well once again since it worked pretty well there (up to the point of getting completely tricked by scum... but it did work to show that I was town and helped lead town, also this should help WIFOM mafia once again)...

I am a Dayvig!

not even kinda joking about this....

I am claiming based off my previous experience and because despite what ash said in the QC from the RMM game I believe this particular role is best served by having town input. It also forces town to decide if they want to kill me or not and need to worry about me shooting them. Last game I had two scum in my sights out of three players I put up for town, so my reads seem to be getting better.

I do not claim IC status equivalent of chairs or EFHW, but I do hope that my claim makes players see me as townier... although there were some doubters last game for a while.

And as I said it does WIFOM mafia. Do they target me out of fear of being killed with a shot they can't control instead of one of the ICs?

anyways I like our chances of hitting scum today as three of us should be out of the lynch pool (EFHW, chairs and me)

really twice in a row?

[Teproc]

That's hilarious. I'm assuming it's true because you know, that's not a good fakeclaim at all. Could still be scum, but certainly not someone we want to lynch today.

I lost track of WoT fairly early, did you end up vigging day 1 there ? The most obvious way to use it would be to kill whoever we want to lynch and then have some time to discuss the flip before going into the night, with the option of lynching someone else if we feel like it.

[faust]

Seriously?

We are 14 players right now... eventually we want to get to an odd number. We could have a lynch AND a vig shot today, which gives early information. Downside of course is our reads aren't as good.

Starting to wonder what kind of PRs mafia has.... town really seems absurdly strong here. Two ICs AND a dayvig?

[faust]

yuma could of course be a scum dayvig. If so, he would be kind of forced to claim today, because of meta stuff. That would kind of suck for him.

[chairs]

lolwtf dayvig

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm a little suspicious of the dayvig claim. I mean we shouldn't lynch him today. But mafia dayvig does seem like a real possibility. Yuma do you have any thoughts as to potential targets today?

[Axxle]

I think he should target someone today. I don't want to risk scum killing him tonight and losing a town controlled kill.

[Axxle]

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

[Axxle]

Actually:

Request Robz to replace

I know it sucks, but your job isn't allowing for it right now if you're going to be gone one or two full game days.

[yuma]

I don't really anticipate shooting today. I might shoot today, but I probably won't unless I have a good reason to do so. Reads are never good until after day1 is over. If mafia want to shoot me... I don't know if that is good for them or bad and... well that is up to them... at least they won't be shooting an IC.

[yuma]

Actually:

Request Robz to replace

I know it sucks, but your job isn't allowing for it right now if you're going to be gone one or two full game days.

anti-request Robz to replace

leave it to robz and the mod to decide if he can stay in the game or not

[Witherweaver]

Why would I do that as scum?

You need to have town reads.  You can't just look like you want to lynch everyone.

yeah... but why the leading wagon that *I* revived/started? That seems ass backwards to me.

That's part of the  reason why your post seemed artificial to me. 

[Witherweaver]

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

[Witherweaver]

yuma could of course be a scum dayvig. If so, he would be kind of forced to claim today, because of meta stuff. That would kind of suck for him.

I thought it was concluded that scum dayvig didn't make sense. It was basically taken off the table in WoT.

I think we shouldn't pressure Yuma into shooting.  His reads in WoT were good, and he ended up using his shots well.

[Witherweaver]

WW, everyone reacts in their own way. I seriously don't think that's indicative of anything. There can be exceptions, of course, but I rarely see anything in reactions unless something really sticks out to me.

I don't see anything in reactions, unless I do.

By the way just because I'm curious, what are you trying gain by posting sarcastic comments like this?

Just making a joke, there's nothing really in it. That said, you got awfully defensive about it.

Axxle might be the closest thing I have to a town read so far, so I find it interesting that my strongest scumread is voting for him.

What makes Axxle a townread?

[Axxle]

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

He's also mislynch bait, which is the best person for vigs to shoot in general.

[Axxle]

yuma could of course be a scum dayvig. If so, he would be kind of forced to claim today, because of meta stuff. That would kind of suck for him.

I thought it was concluded that scum dayvig didn't make sense. It was basically taken off the table in WoT.

I think we shouldn't pressure Yuma into shooting.  His reads in WoT were good, and he ended up using his shots well.

I've seen it offsite, and with 2 ics? I think it's possible.

[Witherweaver]

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

He's also mislynch bait, which is the best person for vigs to shoot in general.

Because there will be more analysis to do on the flip?  But still, wouldn't you prefer someone that you think is scum?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh cool yumavig pt. 2! I'm not even going to suggest who to shoot, I trust yuma's reads enough. And I'm not going to consider a scum dayvig right now. Maybe D2 or D3 but not today.

ADK I responded that way because it didn't seem that your response served any purpose other than to mock me. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. And if you just wanted to mock me, what purpose does that serve? I just don't get it. Also just saying "that's pretty defensive" doesn't mean anything. Do you find it scummy that I responded that way? If so just say it instead of just leaving it at that.

[Archetype]

Well now that the RMM game is over, I might as well claim here as well once again since it worked pretty well there (up to the point of getting completely tricked by scum... but it did work to show that I was town and helped lead town, also this should help WIFOM mafia once again)...

I am a Dayvig!

not even kinda joking about this....

I am claiming based off my previous experience and because despite what ash said in the QC from the RMM game I believe this particular role is best served by having town input. It also forces town to decide if they want to kill me or not and need to worry about me shooting them. Last game I had two scum in my sights out of three players I put up for town, so my reads seem to be getting better.

I do not claim IC status equivalent of chairs or EFHW, but I do hope that my claim makes players see me as townier... although there were some doubters last game for a while.

And as I said it does WIFOM mafia. Do they target me out of fear of being killed with a shot they can't control instead of one of the ICs?

anyways I like our chances of hitting scum today as three of us should be out of the lynch pool (EFHW, chairs and me)

Don't shoot me, we're Lovers!

[Axxle]

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

He's also mislynch bait, which is the best person for vigs to shoot in general.

Because there will be more analysis to do on the flip?  But still, wouldn't you prefer someone that you think is scum?

Vig targets and lynch targets are different.

vote: yuma

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: yuma

Why?

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK I responded that way because it didn't seem that your response served any purpose other than to mock me. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. And if you just wanted to mock me, what purpose does that serve? I just don't get it. Also just saying "that's pretty defensive" doesn't mean anything. Do you find it scummy that I responded that way? If so just say it instead of just leaving it at that.

If what I said seemed mocking, then I apologize, I really was just making a joke. The defensive comment was also just that, a comment. I don't know your alignment and I'm trying to figure it out from the things that you say. Your response is probably not a particularly useful piece of information, because I think it could come from either town or scum, but it is information nonetheless and was something I felt like pointing out in that moment.

[Teproc]

yuma could of course be a scum dayvig. If so, he would be kind of forced to claim today, because of meta stuff. That would kind of suck for him.

I thought it was concluded that scum dayvig didn't make sense. It was basically taken off the table in WoT.

There are two precedents for scum dayvig on f.ds (Major Arcana II and some RMM game), and that's not counting the scum Gladiator in the Arrested Development RMM. ash did say he would reference older games in this setup (or something to that effect), and Wheel of Time just finished so he probably had most of it done before WoT. Of course there have been plenty of town dayvigs on f.ds as well, but I wouldn't draw conclusions for now. Which we don't need to, we can simply take yuma out of the lynch pool for today and reconsider later.

yuma, you said you probably wouldn't shoot today, but don't you agree that it can be good to use your vig as a pseudo-lynch so that we can discuss the flip before the night ? That would require a soft deadline which, yeah, we know how effective those are, but still.

[Witherweaver]

On vacation until Thursday, posted in VLA too. I'll check in though, and will try to be around for the deadline.

[yuma]

Based off my previous experience in the RMM game I strongly believe that saving my shot until a later day when mine and our collective reads are better is the way to go. If axxle wants to vote me for it when he could be voting for someone much more likely to be scum... well that just shows that he is either scum or is poorly playing the game.

I won't be pressured into voting. Like before I will be lynched before I shoot someone I don't want to or at a time I don't want to. I will take suggestions but I will not be forced or manipulated into anything.

[yuma]

yuma, you said you probably wouldn't shoot today, but don't you agree that it can be good to use your vig as a pseudo-lynch so that we can discuss the flip before the night ? That would require a soft deadline which, yeah, we know how effective those are, but still.

I don't think that is the most effective way to use my power. At all. If you want to lynch someone... lynch them. I am using my power separate from the lynch. Because it is just that... separate. If we lynch someone they are going to die from votes, not from my shot.

[faust]

I think EFHW and chairs should decide whether or not we use yuma's shot today.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Yuma seems pretty set against using it. I would like to hear from our ICs though, we are getting awfully close to deadline.

[Witherweaver]

Yuma seems pretty set against using it. I would like to hear from our ICs though, we are getting awfully close to deadline.

I think town Yuma is not going to use it today unless he has a very strong scum read.  Scum Yuma would likely not use it as well, because it would contradict his established practice from WoT.  Town Yuma (and therefore any Yuma) would also likely resist any pushes by us to shoot to prove his claim.  Not that we have reason to doubt he has a dayvig ability anyway. 

If we think Yuma is town, we're best off letting him decide.  I think he'll take input from Chairs and EFHW into account.  If Yuma is scum, I don't really know where that leaves us.  It's actually more dangerous as scum than it is helpful as town, I think.. Town Yuma has a chance of misreading and shooting wrongly.

Has EFHW posted in a while?  Chairs is quiet, too.

[chairs]

I don't think yuma should dayvig on D1.  Maybe D2, but honestly the longer that yuma has to form reads (assuming he lives) the better off we are as far as a dayvig ability goes, assuming he's Town.

[Teproc]

yuma, you said you probably wouldn't shoot today, but don't you agree that it can be good to use your vig as a pseudo-lynch so that we can discuss the flip before the night ? That would require a soft deadline which, yeah, we know how effective those are, but still.

I don't think that is the most effective way to use my power. At all. If you want to lynch someone... lynch them. I am using my power separate from the lynch. Because it is just that... separate. If we lynch someone they are going to die from votes, not from my shot.

I don't understand this. I understand you don't want to use your shot today, which seems right to me. Given that you're not going to use it, why not use it as a pseudo lynch which gives us time to discuss after the flip ? I don't see the downside there, and there is a lot of upside : obviously if we hit scum we can lynch again, but even if we mislynch we get to talk about it before the night.

To be clear : I'm suggesting to use it if someone gets to L-1 with intent to hammer.

[jotheonah]

Teproc, if we had more time I'd agree, but with so little time left that just forces us to make a rush lynch in the last two days or whatever which is really only good for scum.

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

That said, I do not get why yuma claimed! I wasn't following the previous game he was referenceing, but that strikes me as a role you absolutely keep secret, especially if there's no particular reason to think scum will target you at night, which I think is the case here.

Someone said yuma's meta would force him to claim? Can someone explain that please?

[jotheonah]

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day. Otherwise you're throwing the role away. Unless you're counting on protection, which is lame on several counts -- you can't assume there will be protective roles, and it's rude to suddenly require them to target you esp. with two ICs around.

[Axxle]

vote: yuma

Why?

He's not really behaving like I'd expect a town day vig would. And even if he is one I don't want him to keep his shot to a point where scum could easily manipulate him.

[mail-mi]

So yuma's claim hasn't had an influence on me to his alignment. Could be town, could be scum.

[Axxle]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

[jotheonah]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

[jotheonah]

Honestly, if we're really concerned about parity, I'd rather think about no lynch than day 1 vig. But I think parity can wait. We should lynch one person.

[jotheonah]

yuma, why on earth did you claim?

[Teproc]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

This is a misrepresentation. I'm not pushing yuma to vig someone, what I suggest would basically be a different kind of lynch, but a lynch nonetheless.

That said, I do not get why yuma claimed! I wasn't following the previous game he was referenceing, but that strikes me as a role you absolutely keep secret, especially if there's no particular reason to think scum will target you at night, which I think is the case here.

Someone said yuma's meta would force him to claim? Can someone explain that please?

I guess the idea is that he claimed with the same role in Wheel of Time, and he was town there, so it would look scummy if he behaved differently with the same role in this game. I'm not sure though.

Mostly I think yuma's claim is good because it seems like his existence has to be an annoyance for scum. Do they kill him, try to manipulate his kill, try to prevent him from using it because they fear it might be on them ? It makes their life difficult I think, at least for now (having a vig of unkown alignment later on might be good for them).

PPE : 7

[Teproc]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

I know you're quoting Axxle here, but I will stress again that this is not at all what I'm advocating.

[jotheonah]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

I know you're quoting Axxle here, but I will stress again that this is not at all what I'm advocating.

So you're saying, shoot someone and then no-lynch? Just to get the shot out of the way? what's the benefit there?

Mostly I think yuma's claim is good because it seems like his existence has to be an annoyance for scum. Do they kill him, try to manipulate his kill, try to prevent him from using it because they fear it might be on them ? It makes their life difficult I think, at least for now (having a vig of unkown alignment later on might be good for them).

I think this is a fallacy. Scum has all the options they had before, they just have more information. And moe information about town PRs always makes scum's life easier, not harder.

[Teproc]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

I know you're quoting Axxle here, but I will stress again that this is not at all what I'm advocating.

So you're saying, shoot someone and then no-lynch? Just to get the shot out of the way? what's the benefit there?

Is reading that hard ? I explained it, like, five posts ago.

I'm saying that when someone gets to L-1 with intent to hammer, we should have yuma use his shot instead of actually lynching, that way we can decide after the flip if we want a second lynch (that's probably only if he's scum), but most importantly we get to talk about the flip, which gives us more content, plain and simple. It's only good if we reach a lynch at least a day before deadline, but it's be pretty useful I think.

[Robz888]

Avoid-the-prod post.

[jotheonah]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

I know you're quoting Axxle here, but I will stress again that this is not at all what I'm advocating.

So you're saying, shoot someone and then no-lynch? Just to get the shot out of the way? what's the benefit there?

Is reading that hard ? I explained it, like, five posts ago.

I'm saying that when someone gets to L-1 with intent to hammer, we should have yuma use his shot instead of actually lynching, that way we can decide after the flip if we want a second lynch (that's probably only if he's scum), but most importantly we get to talk about the flip, which gives us more content, plain and simple. It's only good if we reach a lynch at least a day before deadline, but it's be pretty useful I think.

That strikes me as marginal utility at best. For the benefit of a few extra hours of discussion post-flip (which probably benefits scum as well as town) we waste yuma's shot? Or, you know, get that pesky dayvig out of the way?

Vote: Teproc for pushing a plan that is so good for scum and so not good for town.

[Teproc]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

I know you're quoting Axxle here, but I will stress again that this is not at all what I'm advocating.

So you're saying, shoot someone and then no-lynch? Just to get the shot out of the way? what's the benefit there?

Is reading that hard ? I explained it, like, five posts ago.

I'm saying that when someone gets to L-1 with intent to hammer, we should have yuma use his shot instead of actually lynching, that way we can decide after the flip if we want a second lynch (that's probably only if he's scum), but most importantly we get to talk about the flip, which gives us more content, plain and simple. It's only good if we reach a lynch at least a day before deadline, but it's be pretty useful I think.

That strikes me as marginal utility at best. For the benefit of a few extra hours of discussion post-flip (which probably benefits scum as well as town) we waste yuma's shot? Or, you know, get that pesky dayvig out of the way?

Vote: Teproc for pushing a plan that is so good for scum and so not good for town.

Huh ?

Why are you assuming yumais a One-Shot Dayvig ? If he is, sure, my plan is terrible. I didn't think of that since he just claimed dayvig, and given that his role was unlimited (I believe) in WoT, that's just where my mind went.

[chairs]

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day.

What?

it sounds contradictory but it's not. I don't think yuma should have claimed. Now that yuma has claimed though, I can't see how its protown to rush into two lynches with no information. Day 1 lynches rarely hit scum. Why would you want two day 1 lynches?

I know you're quoting Axxle here, but I will stress again that this is not at all what I'm advocating.

So you're saying, shoot someone and then no-lynch? Just to get the shot out of the way? what's the benefit there?

Is reading that hard ? I explained it, like, five posts ago.

I'm saying that when someone gets to L-1 with intent to hammer, we should have yuma use his shot instead of actually lynching, that way we can decide after the flip if we want a second lynch (that's probably only if he's scum), but most importantly we get to talk about the flip, which gives us more content, plain and simple. It's only good if we reach a lynch at least a day before deadline, but it's be pretty useful I think.

That strikes me as marginal utility at best. For the benefit of a few extra hours of discussion post-flip (which probably benefits scum as well as town) we waste yuma's shot? Or, you know, get that pesky dayvig out of the way?

Vote: Teproc for pushing a plan that is so good for scum and so not good for town.

Huh ?

Why are you assuming yumais a One-Shot Dayvig ? If he is, sure, my plan is terrible. I didn't think of that since he just claimed dayvig, and given that his role was unlimited (I believe) in WoT, that's just where my mind went.

I believe it was one-shot dayvig, one-shot nightvig in WoT.  Unlimited dayvig would be... impressive.

[Witherweaver]

Not really caught up, but to clarify: Yuma in WoT was town with 1-shot dayvig + 1-shot night vig.  He claimed asap on day 1.

I agree with the he-had-to-claim-meta statement someone made.  If he shoots without claiming, everyone would question why he didn't do it up front.  It also makes sense for him to wait to do it right after WoT, since his alignment there wasn't revealed yet, and he can't talk about the claim. 

So I think his claiming here was the "right" thing to do, regardless of alignment.  But I don't have a good alignment read on him. 

[Teproc]

Yeah, what I said was dumb. Don't know why I assumed it was unlimited dayvig (not that it would be that crazy it's really not THAT different from a regular vig).

[Delirious Deleuze]

Not fully caught up either, but I don't know if a vig shot is in our best interest today, but given that he claimed, it puts us in a bad spot.

He'll most likely be NKed because he's a vig. Which means his shot would be useless if we wait and he dies. That being said, I don't know if a vig shot today will be the best for us, but at the very best it will give us more information and possibly a scum kill.

I don't know. I think given that he claimed D1 we have to use the shot

[chairs]

Yeah, what I said was dumb. Don't know why I assumed it was unlimited dayvig (not that it would be that crazy it's really not THAT different from a regular vig).

Dayvigs can't be roleblocked, because roleblocking is a Night action and blocks Night actions (unless the role is modified).

[A Drowned Kernel]

Not fully caught up either, but I don't know if a vig shot is in our best interest today, but given that he claimed, it puts us in a bad spot.

He'll most likely be NKed because he's a vig. Which means his shot would be useless if we wait and he dies. That being said, I don't know if a vig shot today will be the best for us, but at the very best it will give us more information and possibly a scum kill.

I don't know. I think given that he claimed D1 we have to use the shot

Scum would probably rather kill the ICs and see if they can get us to lynch yuma, especially since he has said he's probably going to wait until a later day to shoot. I would rather discuss a lynch candidate (WW is still my preference) and let Yuma decides if he wants to do the "pseudo-lynch" thing Teproc suggested (in WoT he didn't reveal how many shots he had at first, he could be one-shot/X-shot/unlimited here and it's up to him to reveal that information or not).

PPE: 1

[Teproc]

Yeah, what I said was dumb. Don't know why I assumed it was unlimited dayvig (not that it would be that crazy it's really not THAT different from a regular vig).

Dayvigs can't be roleblocked, because roleblocking is a Night action and blocks Night actions (unless the role is modified).

Yeah but they have to out themselves when they shoot. So I don't think it's an unrealistic role at all. Whatever the case may be, my reasoning was based on a faulty assumption, so I was wrong and yuma should do whatever he feels like doing with his PR.

I'm going to unvote for now. I really need to reread, and scum!joth would probably want me to keep pushing in order to out more info about yuma's role, and he did the reverse here.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I know I'm not very active this game, sorry about that. I think it's just that this weekend is crazy for me. I should be more involved in the next couple days.

[chairs]

I know I'm not very active this game, sorry about that. I think it's just that this weekend is crazy for me. I should be more involved in the next couple days.

DO YOUR BUILD IN POWERGRID

[EFHW]

No reason for yuma to dayvig today. It would basically be a random shot, so it's better saved for when he has a strong scum read. 

[EFHW]

I'm going to reread joth now to see if I can understand what this wagon on him is about.

[EFHW]

Ok, so he did act kind of weird around the faust vote and then the wagon on him.  The vote seemed to be a reaction to not getting faust's joke that there are now 3 IC's.  He said "I'm with Axxle, vote faust".  When questioned he first said it was RVS and then said he actually suspects Axxle and that the faust vote was for pressure b/c nothing much was going on.  That seems different from the context of his voting in reaction to faust's provocative statement.   

I'm with Axxle. vote: faust

This doesn't sound like an RVS vote, even if Axxle didn't really give a reason for voting.

I guess less RVS and more of a pressure vote? It's a thing I do sometimes when nothing is happening. Sometimes early, unexplicable pressure can freak someone out and make them slip up. It's always worth a try. But faust has reacted like a befuddled townie, IMO, even with three stupid votes on him, so it's a no-go.

Not sure what to make of his reaction to the wagon on him.  He is certainly sensitive and sarcastic and appeals to emotion, and he seems more upset than the number of votes should warrant.  But it is alarming to sign on and the first thing you see are a bunch of vote: [your name here].

In all, this looks like a typical Day 1 case.  It would be great to have something better!

[EFHW]

joth's questioning yuma's claiming does sound towny, and yuma's explanation for claiming is a bit confusing b/c I didn't follow Wheel of Time.  It also seems very self-conscious.  His claiming does offer some protection to the IC's by providing another valuable nk target.  But if he's scum, there's no harm done to them by his claiming, so that's pretty neutral alignment-wise.

Can someone summarize how WoT leads to yuma claiming dayvig Day 1 instead of later?

[jotheonah]

I actually like Teproc here. I think he's backpedalling from an unpopular opinion. And fabricating a misunderstanding to cover it.

[jotheonah]

Like Teproc as the lynch that is.

[Teproc]

I actually like Teproc here. I think he's backpedalling from an unpopular opinion. And fabricating a misunderstanding to cover it.

I'm backpedaling from a wrong opinion which was based on a misunderstanding, but ok.

[mail-mi]

I was reading over WOT again (for nostalgia) and saw this conversation between ash and yuma:

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

...which may mean that there is a scum dayvig. or maybe not. just thought it interesting.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think that ash designed this before WoT started, right? This is an homage game but I imagine he has his own spin on things. I don't think we should look to the other game where yuma was a dayvig specifically.

[yuma]

Teproc, if we had more time I'd agree, but with so little time left that just forces us to make a rush lynch in the last two days or whatever which is really only good for scum.

Axxle and Teproc are both scummy for pushing so hard for yuma to use the dayvig today. Taking our time is almost always the pro-town option.

That said, I do not get why yuma claimed! I wasn't following the previous game he was referenceing, but that strikes me as a role you absolutely keep secret, especially if there's no particular reason to think scum will target you at night, which I think is the case here.

Someone said yuma's meta would force him to claim? Can someone explain that please?

I think I explained above why I claimed...

Why would I need to keep it secret? You claimed as dayvig in Arrested didn't you. Sure it was Day2. But I see it comparable to gladiator in that because it effects the day it should be claimed and allowed to town to help decide how to use it. I don't see why people are saying that "since he claimed today he has to use it today..." why does that make sense?

Because I might be night killed? If I am night killed then mafia didn't kill an IC and I feel pretty good about that, especially since I am often of the opinion that vigs are a negative utility anyways.

As for why I claimed here because of the previous game. I am claiming here because what I did in the RMM game worked out quite well I think. I became a quasi-IC for the duration of the game and while town ultimately lost it was greatly aided I think by my quasi-IC status. I ended up hitting scum (I did hit town once too) and directed town quite well. Combining this with 2 ICs already and I think and hope town will be able to get a good solid lynch day1--hopefully hitting scum--and then use that info tomorrow.

[yuma]

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day. Otherwise you're throwing the role away. Unless you're counting on protection, which is lame on several counts -- you can't assume there will be protective roles, and it's rude to suddenly require them to target you esp. with two ICs around.

I never asked for protection and I have no desire to further this discussion except to say that you are implying that I am asking for protection, which I never did. Any talk of who should be protecting who should cease and desist immediately. 

[yuma]

yuma, why on earth did you claim?

for someone who is so blatantly questioning my claim perhaps it would benefit you to actually read my posts where I feel I explained it...

If you have specific questions about my explanation feel free to ask

[yuma]

joth's questioning yuma's claiming does sound towny, and yuma's explanation for claiming is a bit confusing b/c I didn't follow Wheel of Time.  It also seems very self-conscious.  His claiming does offer some protection to the IC's by providing another valuable nk target.  But if he's scum, there's no harm done to them by his claiming, so that's pretty neutral alignment-wise.

Can someone summarize how WoT leads to yuma claiming dayvig Day 1 instead of later?

I think people are thinking thus:

1. yuma claimed as town dayvig in WoT.
2. his claiming put town in a pretty good position--despite the losing effort--and helped direct town throughout the game
3. if yuma is town then he learned from that experience and would be inclined to claim here again in a similar situation
4. if yuma is scum then he know has a meta from that experience and would feel compelled to claim early if he does in fact have that power because for him to shoot w/o claiming, or even claiming later in the game, would be suspicious based of the previous good experience he had as town.

Situation 3 is where we are at and I don't know if I agree with situation 4, but that appears to be what people are implying.

[yuma]

I was reading over WOT again (for nostalgia) and saw this conversation between ash and yuma:

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

...which may mean that there is a scum dayvig. or maybe not. just thought it interesting.

This seems like a stretch to me...

[Witherweaver]

I was reading over WOT again (for nostalgia) and saw this conversation between ash and yuma:

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

...which may mean that there is a scum dayvig. or maybe not. just thought it interesting.

This almost reads a like ash putting in some preemptive WIFOM to prevent us from figuring out if he'd actually use scum dayvig.  Yuma likely remembers this conversation as well and would figure we'd see it.  But I don't know.. Is trying to read the mod instead of the players a valid thing?

[mail-mi]

I was reading over WOT again (for nostalgia) and saw this conversation between ash and yuma:

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

...which may mean that there is a scum dayvig. or maybe not. just thought it interesting.

This seems like a stretch to me...

well it may have planted the seeds of this role in ashersky's head. and yeah its a stretch but it was just something interesting i noticed.

[Witherweaver]

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day. Otherwise you're throwing the role away. Unless you're counting on protection, which is lame on several counts -- you can't assume there will be protective roles, and it's rude to suddenly require them to target you esp. with two ICs around.

I may be missing something because of catching up, but it sounds like in the post above this you find Axxle and Teproc scummy for pushing Yuma to shoot, and here it sounds like you're saying Yuma should shoot.

[Witherweaver]

I was reading over WOT again (for nostalgia) and saw this conversation between ash and yuma:

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

...which may mean that there is a scum dayvig. or maybe not. just thought it interesting.

This seems like a stretch to me...

well it may have planted the seeds of this role in ashersky's head. and yeah its a stretch but it was just something interesting i noticed.

Well, if Ash set this game up before WoT (believable), then he would have known if it was or wasn't in.  So he wouldn't have just thought of it there, as his post sounded.  But he wanted to bring it up in that game to cast a seed of doubt about Yuma's alignment.

[Witherweaver]

Basically if you claim dayvig, you should be ready to use it that day. Otherwise you're throwing the role away. Unless you're counting on protection, which is lame on several counts -- you can't assume there will be protective roles, and it's rude to suddenly require them to target you esp. with two ICs around.

I may be missing something because of catching up, but it sounds like in the post above this you find Axxle and Teproc scummy for pushing Yuma to shoot, and here it sounds like you're saying Yuma should shoot.

Never mind, you explained later.

[Witherweaver]

joth's questioning yuma's claiming does sound towny, and yuma's explanation for claiming is a bit confusing b/c I didn't follow Wheel of Time.  It also seems very self-conscious.  His claiming does offer some protection to the IC's by providing another valuable nk target.  But if he's scum, there's no harm done to them by his claiming, so that's pretty neutral alignment-wise.

Can someone summarize how WoT leads to yuma claiming dayvig Day 1 instead of later?

I think people are thinking thus:

1. yuma claimed as town dayvig in WoT.
2. his claiming put town in a pretty good position--despite the losing effort--and helped direct town throughout the game
3. if yuma is town then he learned from that experience and would be inclined to claim here again in a similar situation
4. if yuma is scum then he know has a meta from that experience and would feel compelled to claim early if he does in fact have that power because for him to shoot w/o claiming, or even claiming later in the game, would be suspicious based of the previous good experience he had as town.

Situation 3 is where we are at and I don't know if I agree with situation 4, but that appears to be what people are implying.

Doesn't 3 imply 4?  If you're scum, you'd want to emulate town, which is 3.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I wouldn't read too much into ash's comment since he didn't know when he wrote that that yuma specifically was going to be the dayvig.

[mail-mi]

I wouldn't read too much into ash's comment since he didn't know when he wrote that that yuma specifically was going to be the dayvig.

well that's not what I meant, i was just meaning that they were talking about having a scum dayvig. but....

Well, if Ash set this game up before WoT (believable), then he would have known if it was or wasn't in.  So he wouldn't have just thought of it there, as his post sounded.  But he wanted to bring it up in that game to cast a seed of doubt about Yuma's alignment.

...so it's probably meaningless.

[Axxle]

If there are protective roles Id call this bastard (minus strongman or something)

[yuma]

Doesn't 3 imply 4?  If you're scum, you'd want to emulate town, which is 3.

Not necessarily. I don't think that the best course for a scum dayvig would be to claim. Neutrally that is. I do see the argument for people saying that I would claim day1 based on precedent... but I do think that there would be ways to work around that as scum...

claiming a later day basing my previous experience in WoT as evidence that I felt that claiming later would be better--we didn't end up winning the game after all--or saying that because this is a normal game and not RMM claiming later would be better... or whatever. Scum can come up with a whole lot of lies to justify something and make it believable. Or not claim at all and try and survive--not impossible--and use it later on in lylo or something w/o announcing for the win. Or whatever.

But really it is all beside the point for me. I am town. I claimed because I still think it was the best move in WoT and think it will be here as well. I really don't think that a scum dayvig would be easy to balance. Possible, sure... but it is such a role more likely to be town than scum, especially in a "normal" game.

[yuma]

If there are protective roles Id call this bastard (minus strongman or something)

Huh?

[yuma]

I think these two quotes don't make sense next to each other:

I think he should target someone today. I don't want to risk scum killing him tonight and losing a town controlled kill.

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

He's also mislynch bait, which is the best person for vigs to shoot in general.

Because there will be more analysis to do on the flip?  But still, wouldn't you prefer someone that you think is scum?

Vig targets and lynch targets are different.

vote: yuma

Axxle wants me to shoot so that we don't risk losing a town controlled kill, but he wants to lynch me and lose the town controlled kill?

Or do you think I am completely lying about my role Axxle?

[yuma]

I was reading over WOT again (for nostalgia) and saw this conversation between ash and yuma:

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

...which may mean that there is a scum dayvig. or maybe not. just thought it interesting.

This seems like a stretch to me...

well it may have planted the seeds of this role in ashersky's head. and yeah its a stretch but it was just something interesting i noticed.

Sure but knowing ash he had the setup ready to go by that point, or at least really close to it... He had announced the setup weeks (months?) in advance. I don't think ash would change a game--and this change I think would likely require major changes to its structure--just because of a conversation that was had in a game that would be run immediately prior to his own.

I fully believe that ash had a town dayvig already assigned in his game and probably laughed for an hour straight when it was roled to me... I know I laughed pretty hard about it when I got my PM.

[yuma]

anyways... who do people think scum is...? let's talk about that.

I am still fine voting joth. his reaction to my claim did nothing to make me think him townier... also note that he talked a bunch about my claim, but not about the points that I made about him explaining why I kept my vote on him...

[A Drowned Kernel]

So we're not lynching Yuma and he's probably not using his shot. Deadline is in two days. Who are we lynching?

I'd like to lynch WW. I would be okay lynching DeDe, he's been kind of quiet and I'm getting a "first-time scum" feeling from him. Robz has been inactive but he's on VLA and I don't think people like lynching him on day one in general. I feel like I'm null on most people so a reread is probably in order.

PPE: What Yuma said, let's talk about scum. I was townish on Axxle before but he had some odd reactions to yuma's claim, he never really explained why he was voting for him.

[mail-mi]

I think these two quotes don't make sense next to each other:

I think he should target someone today. I don't want to risk scum killing him tonight and losing a town controlled kill.

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

He's also mislynch bait, which is the best person for vigs to shoot in general.

Because there will be more analysis to do on the flip?  But still, wouldn't you prefer someone that you think is scum?

Vig targets and lynch targets are different.

vote: yuma

Axxle wants me to shoot so that we don't risk losing a town controlled kill, but he wants to lynch me and lose the town controlled kill?

Or do you think I am completely lying about my role Axxle?

i think this is a valid point against axxle and i'm gonna vote: axxle

[Witherweaver]

I'm good with my vote on Axxle.  I could go for Joth too.  My suspicion of Yuma has gone down since he claimed.. The feeling I had of him acting differently than I expect can be explained by him not being able to come out with the claim until WoT finished. 

[yuma]

Hmmm... I didn't really intend for my point about axxle to indicate that he is scummy... rather that he was being inconsistent and to try and see why he wanted to lynch me. I have learned that inconsistencies aren't scummy and have actually kinda had a townread on axxle. I mean I don't like that he is voting for me, but townies vote for me all the time...

[Axxle]

I think these two quotes don't make sense next to each other:

I think he should target someone today. I don't want to risk scum killing him tonight and losing a town controlled kill.

We have 3 days, not a lot of time.

I propose shooting WW, Joth, or Robz whichever you prefer. We need to make this decision *today* as in this real day.

I thought Joth was non scum from your perspective?

He's also mislynch bait, which is the best person for vigs to shoot in general.

Because there will be more analysis to do on the flip?  But still, wouldn't you prefer someone that you think is scum?

Vig targets and lynch targets are different.

vote: yuma

Axxle wants me to shoot so that we don't risk losing a town controlled kill, but he wants to lynch me and lose the town controlled kill?

Or do you think I am completely lying about my role Axxle?

yes

[Axxle]

You should shoot today as town or die today as scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Catching up today but wont be able to post until tonight probably.

[AndrewisFTTW]

You should shoot today as town or die today as scum.

Dayum!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok so I didn't miss much after all, just a lot of talk about yuma shooting (huh?) and about the mod (huh!?) Come on guys let's focus here and do some scumhunting. Yuma is gonna do what yuma is gonna do and analyzing whether or not ash included a scum dayvig gets us nowhere.

Teproc is super aggressive this game, DD still looks like new scum to me like ADK said but it's hard to make a case on someone who isn't posting, and I don't like lynching someone just for lurking. I don't know why but I get a towny vibe from joth, and Axxle is Axxle but that doesn't mean anything.

[Teproc]

Catching up today but wont be able to post until tonight probably.

Same here, I'll do a full reread later tonight.

[EFHW]

I can't be here at deadline tomorrow, but I will be on late afternoon.  Do we have enough people planning to be on at deadline?

[Teproc]

I can't be here at deadline tomorrow, but I will be on late afternoon.  Do we have enough people planning to be on at deadline?

I will, or at least I'll be there a few hours before the deadline.

[EFHW]

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

[mail-mi]

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

okay

scum to chum
scummiest
axxle

scummier
witherweaver
joth

kinda scummy (lurkers)
robz
adk
arch

null
everyone else

towny
yuma
andrewis

IC
chairs
mail-mi
EFHW

[A Drowned Kernel]

Is scum:
WitherWeaver- I just don't buy what happened in the QT

Scummy:
Delirious Deleuze- seems quiet, and as someone pointed out spending effort defending other players
yuma- won't lynch him today because of the claim but he's been kind of off I think
archetype- lurking quite a bit
teproc- there's been a little bit of antagonizing that's felt kind of forced, probably wouldn't lynch today but I'd be open for the possibility

Null/ slightly scummy:
Axxle- had a strong town read on him at first but he's being weird about yuma's claim so I don't know
joth, faust, mail-mi- not sure yet, have to wait and see

Towny:
andrewisFTTW- either that or he's really good at playing his meta

[jotheonah]

Ok, here we go

Scummy
Teproc
Axxle
witherweaver
yuma

Null and/or lurky
DD
Archetype
Faust
Robz
mail-mi

Towny
ADK
Andrewis FTTW

ICs/me
chairs
EFHW
jotheonah

I know I had Robz as scummy before, but he's so IRL V/LA it's hard to tell. DOn't like him as today's lynch anyway.

[jotheonah]

oh, and I will probably be on around deadline, but no promises

[Robz888]

I'm actually sort of around right now, but I don't have the time yet to catch up (I am way, way way behind in the thread).

I will vote for whoever I am told to vote for. Who should I vote for?

[mail-mi]

I'm actually sort of around right now, but I don't have the time yet to catch up (I am way, way way behind in the thread).

I will vote for whoever I am told to vote for. Who should I vote for?

axxle?

[yuma]

Or do you think I am completely lying about my role Axxle?

yes

that is silly. Why does it have to be such extremes? Can you not think of a situation wherein I could be town and not want to shoot today? Cause the middle ground is where most situations are likely to fall... and did fall in this case...

[Robz888]

I can vote for Axxle. I wouldn't be undeservedly hammering him, would I?

[yuma]

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

We should be careful as I tend to think these sort of mass list making ventures often lead to mass group mislynches instead of solid lynches on scum...

But I would be willing to lynch ADK, mail-mi or joth.

I have lost my scum read on WW to an extent.

Wouldn't lynch axxle (town read) or Robz (VLA) I think... everyone else is meh... and can't remember them much. Teproc is here. Is faust in this game? if so I could lynch him....

[yuma]

don't vote for axxle... and don't let mail-mi tell you who to vote for.

if you are going to sheep, then sheep me or an IC.

[Robz888]

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

We should be careful as I tend to think these sort of mass list making ventures often lead to mass group mislynches instead of solid lynches on scum...

I agree, although I have been crucified for saying so before.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure if I'll have time to reread.  I'll try. 

My general feeling now:

Don't want to vote for Andrew, ADK, Yuma. (EFHW, Chairs and myself go without saying)

Completely null on Robz, Faust, Teproc, DeDe, Arch, and Mail-mi.  I don't think I'd be opposed to voting for any of those, save Robz wince he's gone.  DeDe is somewhat VLA too I think.

Leaning scum on Joth and Axxle.

Both Yuma and ADK have expressed town reads on Axxle.  I don't actually understand why.  But I'm going to take their lead for the moment and Unvote. 

I will get a real vote in before deadline (when is it?). Don't know if I'll be on for the actual flip.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.9:

WW (1):  ADK
Andrew (1):  Archetype
joth (4):  yuma, chairs, faust, DD
DD (1):  Andrew
Axxle (1):  mail-mi
yuma (1):  Axxle
Teproc (1):  joth

Not Voting (4): Robz888, EFHW, Teproc, WW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[EFHW]

Deadline is tomorrow at 7, so we will definitely need some consolidation of votes!

[EFHW]

Post Count (includes pregame)

Robz 9
Archetype 10
Delirious 13
mail-mi 15
chairs 16
faust 20
A Drowned Kernel 26
EFHW 26
Teproc 36
joth 40
Axxle 45
AndrewisFTTW 46
yuma 47
WitherWeaver 59

[AndrewisFTTW]

I have 46 posts? I could've sworn I was lurking.

[Teproc]

Just reread the thread, so let's do reads.

yuma : Town. Not an IC, but his claim does make him more likely to be town. Mostly he's just been acting very much like town!yuma,
active and constructive.

Axxle : Town. Short posts but actually useful, using his vote aggressively which is good in big games like this, seems like town!Axxle to me. Also he feels different from Adventure Time (scum) and Philosopher's (SK).

Delirious Deleuze : Town. Hasn't posted that much, but has had an open thought process which is hard to replicate as scum, and when he posts he is constructive.

faust: Slight town. He was making sense and being active at the start of the game, which made him one of my early town reads... and then he kinda disappeared, so I'm a little conflicted. Still leaning town though, I guess this is a big game and it's easy to get behind.

AndrewisFTTW : Slight town. I disagree with pretty much every single word he's written in this thread, but he's been contributing and our little fight at the start actually gave me a townread on him.

Archetype: Slight town. He has said very little and needs to step it up, but his two posts sounded townie to me. This is a very weak town read because of the sheer lack of content, but a town read nonetheless.

Robz : Null. I'm pretty annoyed because it seems clear to me that Robz only signed up for this game to keep his streak running...

WW : Slight scum. Very active, which can be hard to do as scum but I'm not remembering a lot of what he's actually done this game. And then there the QT "slip" or whatever which doesnt mean anything in and of itself, but his defense invoking self-meta was fairly scummy.

A Drowned Kernel: Slight scum. I'm used to getting a strong town read on ADK when he is town, and I'm not getting it here. His insistence on the WW QT "slip" also seems like scum!ADK decided to use it to get a mislynch through and he's disappointed to apparently be he only one believing it.

mail-mi : Slight scum. Ok, I know mail-mi is always sheepy, but he takes it to another level in this game. His two votes (on WW then Axxle) are sheeping (first me, then yuma) and his reads post basically has any one who has ever had two votes in this game as a scum read.

jotheonah : On reread, still my preferred lynch. More active that I would expect him to be without having that much actual content, and obviously he overreacted to his wagon which I think is a scum trait. I think I unvoted a while ago, so vote: jotheonah.

TL ; DR => I don't care Robz, I still expect you to read it ! Basically my lynch pool is {jotheonah, mail-mi, ADK, WW, Robz}, with a strong preference for joth.

[yuma]

really at this point we either need to get more votes on joth or someone needs to present a compelling case on someone else. We basically have his wagon and a bunch of 1 vote wagons that don't appear to be going anywhere...

I could also go for an arch lynch pretty much completely out of revenge...

[yuma]

Also I won't be online for deadline. I will be getting out of work right at that moment...

I will check in and post before leaving for work and there is a none zero chance I could borrow a buddies phone to get on during a break if I need to move my vote for a lynch, but I can't guarantee that at all...

but really we should be having a conversation right now... but no one is here.

[mail-mi]

really at this point we either need to get more votes on joth

i can do that. he's slightly scummy. vote: joth

[EFHW]

I'm here on phone, but no scumreads.  I keep rereading instead of posting.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not super hot on the joth lynch but if it's that or nothing I'll put my vote there. I plan on being around for deadline but if people want to the be having a conversation now I'm around. yuma, you mentioned mail-mi as someone you would lynch, what's your reasoning for that?

[A Drowned Kernel]

no scumreads

Like, nothing at all? Or nothing worth commenting on? If you weren't an IC I'd find that a little fishy.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.10:

WW (1):  ADK
Andrew (1):  Archetype
joth (6):  yuma, chairs, faust, DD, teproc, mail-mi
DD (1):  Andrew
yuma (1):  Axxle
Teproc (1):  joth

Not Voting (3): Robz888, EFHW, WW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[yuma]

I'm not super hot on the joth lynch but if it's that or nothing I'll put my vote there. I plan on being around for deadline but if people want to the be having a conversation now I'm around. yuma, you mentioned mail-mi as someone you would lynch, what's your reasoning for that?

little contribution (basically a lurker), his scum to chum list left me wanting (I know it was asked for, but contrast it to teproc's) and I do feel how he reacted to my claim was a bit suspicious... holding a null read from it, but then pointing out things that are very stretchy to see if they will stick to make me look scummy and less credible

[EFHW]

Actually:

Request Robz to replace

I know it sucks, but your job isn't allowing for it right now if you're going to be gone one or two full game days.

Axxle, why Robz?  Arch is lurking worse, w/o vla, and there are other pretty quiet players.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Looking back mail-mi has had been pretty underwhelming in his contribution. His first real post is to sheep me on WW, then he posts a bit about yuma's claim, and I feel like when you're scum it's a lot easier to come up with stuff to say about theory and claiming than actual scumreads. He's a lot lurkier than I was remembering. If the WW lynch really isn't happening I would prefer a mail-mi lynch to joth.

Vote: mail-mi

[EFHW]

Yuma why do you think axxle is town?

[EFHW]

no scumreads

Like, nothing at all? Or nothing worth commenting on? If you weren't an IC I'd find that a little fishy.

Perk of being IC.  You can say what you think even if it sounds scummy.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'd sheep ADK here if only to avoid a joth lynch. I really think joth is town and I'm sorry if I don't have a good reason for it. But at this point I'm more interested in lynching DD or maybe even Teproc. Limited and seemingly forced posts from DD, and a more-aggressive-than-I-remember Teproc put up red flags for me pretty quick.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

okay

scum to chum
scummiest
axxle

scummier
witherweaver
joth

kinda scummy (lurkers)
robz
adk
arch

null
everyone else

towny
yuma
andrewis

IC
chairs
mail-mi
EFHW

Oh I missed the last few posts on the last page somehow, including this list. Here's what I make of this. mail-mi's scumreads are Axxle, WW, and joth, who are the three people who've had the most attention and pressure put on them thus far in the game. After that, the "kinda scummy" people are robz, ADK, and arch because they're lurkers. First of all, ADK is not lurking. Second of all, Robz and v/la and third, is lurking generally considered scummy? I mean, I don't think so but then again I can think of a few times where lurkers actually turned out to be scum so I don't know if there's any real correlation there. Nevertheless, the point I'm trying to make is that mail-mi either put zero effort into this list or he's trying to play it safe. Either way, it's not very satisfying.

I'm going to hold off on a vote right now but right now I'd be down to lynch DD, Teproc, or mail-mi.

Robz, don't vote Axxle.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.11:

Andrew (1):  Archetype
joth (6):  yuma, chairs, faust, DD, teproc, mail-mi
DD (1):  Andrew
yuma (1):  Axxle
Teproc (1):  joth
mail-mi (1):  ADK

Not Voting (3): Robz888, EFHW, WW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.

[Archetype]

really at this point we either need to get more votes on joth or someone needs to present a compelling case on someone else. We basically have his wagon and a bunch of 1 vote wagons that don't appear to be going anywhere...

I could also go for an arch lynch pretty much completely out of revenge...

You could just Vig me. That'll be true revenge.

I've caught up halfway through the thread. Early game was mostly speculation, so no strong reads yet. Leaning Town on joth, though, so I'm not totally in support of his lynch. I should have the thread fully read and reads formulated before deadline, though.

Am I still on Andrew? Unvote

[faust]

Sorry for being a little behind. Can't catch up right now, but let me say that my preferred lynch choices are joth/WW. Actually I've come to like a WW lynch a bit better now, due to ongoing game reasons.

Vote: Witherweaver for now to see if this can get support. I'm willing to switch back otherwise.

[jotheonah]

ok, in the interest of not being the only wagon with any momentum vote: witherweaver

ADK and ANdrew are both town reads for me and mail-mi is null and pretty lurky, so I could see going that way too. I'd just need to know, what's the case on him beyond lurking and not being that interesting?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.12:

joth (5):  yuma, chairs, DD, teproc, mail-mi
DD (1):  Andrew
yuma (1):  Axxle
mail-mi (1):  ADK
WW (2):  faust, joth

Not Voting (4): Robz888, EFHW, WW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.  That's in 16 hours.

[yuma]

Yuma why do you think axxle is town?

I started off with a town read from him from a silly post he did about "finally being town" I don't have time to pull it up, but it gave me an impression of him being sincere.

From there the way he reacted to my claim--aggressively trying to control it and voting me--isn't something I would expect scum to do... to easy for me to get annoyed and shoot him in response. Thinking back to the RMM game the only players who were really aggressive about the possibility of me being scum were townies. Scum was all like "he is probably town, kinda suspicious... but his claim makes me think townie..."

Axxle is one player that is capable of anything as either alignment, so I do remember that, but that is my read on him.

[yuma]

i would vote for mail-mi if it made much closer to the size of joth. But given that he only has one player voting I am not going to move and take us closer to a no-lynch.

Like I said I won't be around for deadline and can maybe get on during a break. But that is a big maybe... so don't count on it.

[jotheonah]

We're at even parity. Why not no-lynch? Why is it better to lynch someone you don't particularly think is scum.

[Axxle]

We're at even parity. Why not no-lynch? Why is it better to lynch someone you don't particularly think is scum.

vote: joth L-2
That's what our supposed dayvig is for.

[jotheonah]

this is beyond stupid. you guys are voting me and most of you don't even think I'm scum, just because it's the easy lynch and we're close to deadline. don't you see that just gives scum an easy town lynch that they don't even have to own up to later? It's the worst kind of day one. We can do better.

[Robz888]

Vote: Jotheonah In case we come up short in votes.

[EFHW]

I'm not at all convinced that joth is scum.  I'm also taking WW, DD and Andrew out of my lynch pool for today.  On the fence about Axxle.  Rereading Teproc next.

[EFHW]

Vote: Jotheonah In case we come up short in votes.

seriously?  You are putting him at L-1 for that?

[Teproc]

We're at even parity. Why not no-lynch? Why is it better to lynch someone you don't particularly think is scum.

vote: joth L-2
That's what our supposed dayvig is for.

I don't understand, could you elaborate ?

[Teproc]

this is beyond stupid. you guys are voting me and most of you don't even think I'm scum, just because it's the easy lynch and we're close to deadline. don't you see that just gives scum an easy town lynch that they don't even have to own up to later? It's the worst kind of day one. We can do better.

Aside from Robz, and possibly Axxle, everyone voting for you has a scum read on you. Just because you're not everyone's preferred lynch doesn't mean that you're a bad lynch. The ADK lynch in Philosopher's went in a pretty similar way and hit scum.

[faust]

Intent to hammer.

joth, if there is something you want to claim, now is the time.

[jotheonah]

there is so much scum on my wagon. it is lousy with scum.

[jotheonah]

and if you don't want to listen to me, listen to your IC who is currently trying to put the breaks on my wagon.

[jotheonah]

why would you hammer right now when EFHW is in the middle of re-reading?

[jotheonah]

Vote: Jotheonah In case we come up short in votes.

SCUMMY AS HELL. You don't come out of a full day's lurk just to vote for the leading wagon for no actual reason.

[Robz888]

Vote: Jotheonah In case we come up short in votes.

SCUMMY AS HELL. You don't come out of a full day's lurk just to vote for the leading wagon for no actual reason.

That is precisely what I did, though.

[Teproc]

why would you hammer right now when EFHW is in the middle of re-reading?

This is a good point, we should try to get everything we can from our ICs today because, you know, they tend not to last very long.

[jotheonah]

Vote: Jotheonah In case we come up short in votes.

SCUMMY AS HELL. You don't come out of a full day's lurk just to vote for the leading wagon for no actual reason.

That is precisely what I did, though.

And I would submit that it is not a thing Town Robz does.

[Teproc]

Vote: Jotheonah In case we come up short in votes.

SCUMMY AS HELL. You don't come out of a full day's lurk just to vote for the leading wagon for no actual reason.

That is precisely what I did, though.

It's a good thing for you I don't believe in LALL, because you really would deserve it here. I think voting for joth is actually counterproductive here, because it's a vote you can later dismiss as being you trying to be useful. A lynch where everyone on-wagon actually is convinced of the scumminess of the lynchee (or are scum themselves obviously) is much better for later analysis.

[Delirious Deleuze]

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.


Robz888- I'm getting a slight scum read on him, but nothing heavy. He was lurking (much like me) but he's also busy. His first post back, although, was a vote with no explanation for Joth. It's a bit scummy.

chairs- town

mail-mi- town, Despite being lurky, I find nothing particularly telling about his posts. He seems like a busy, bored, townie to me.

Witherweaver- Definitely town. I do not think the mistake in the QT was a scum play, and I don't think he's been being scummy. He's consistently posted, argued against people he felt were scummy. He's been a strong active town member. He's is not someone I would want to lynch today.

Faust- He's playing in the background like the HoC game he was scum in. He threw in an intent to hammer out of no where. This smells badly of scum tactics. Because of this Vote: faust. If EFHW comes back and votes for Joth, I may switch to intent to hammer, but for now I feel more scum coming from Faust.

jotheonah- Scum. I think his behavior is weird and trying to get people t find him as town. Teproc's reasoning has been pretty sound. I just don't feel he's more scummy than faust, which is why I changed my vote. There is enough momentum for him now, and I'd be happy to switch to lynching him, but in fear of a scum hammer out of nowhere, I'll just stay on Faust.

Teproc- Town, he's consistently posting good content, analyzing posts and trying to find scum. Very similar to other games he's been town in.

AndrewisFTTW- town. His posts are aggressive and short, but overall constructive and helpful.

EFHW- town

Axxle- Weird, but I'm not feeling anything scummy from them. Town.

ADK- town. He's definitely been very thorough in his posts, definitely asking the right questions and I feel been very helpful.

Archetype- Kinda null.


My scum team prediction: Robz, Joth, Faust

[Robz888]

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

[Robz888]

My scum team prediction: Robz, Joth, Faust

Pointless. Little more than a random guess.

[Teproc]

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

Sigh...

Day Vigilante.

[AndrewisFTTW]

My scum team prediction: Robz, Joth, Faust

Pointless. Little more than a random guess.

Yes. Vote DD!

this is beyond stupid. you guys are voting me and most of you don't even think I'm scum, just because it's the easy lynch and we're close to deadline. don't you see that just gives scum an easy town lynch that they don't even have to own up to later? It's the worst kind of day one. We can do better.

Aside from Robz, and possibly Axxle, everyone voting for you has a scum read on you. Just because you're not everyone's preferred lynch doesn't mean that you're a bad lynch. The ADK lynch in Philosopher's went in a pretty similar way and hit scum.

This is NO way resembles the ADK lynch in Philosopher's. ADK was lurking, jumping onto different people really quickly when he did come on to post, and just generally didn't seem like himself. I would, however, point you and everyone to me D1 of WOT because this looks exactly like that.

[Delirious Deleuze]

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

.......

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh and I was town in WOT and feel strongly that joth is town here.

[Teproc]

this is beyond stupid. you guys are voting me and most of you don't even think I'm scum, just because it's the easy lynch and we're close to deadline. don't you see that just gives scum an easy town lynch that they don't even have to own up to later? It's the worst kind of day one. We can do better.

Aside from Robz, and possibly Axxle, everyone voting for you has a scum read on you. Just because you're not everyone's preferred lynch doesn't mean that you're a bad lynch. The ADK lynch in Philosopher's went in a pretty similar way and hit scum.

This is NO way resembles the ADK lynch in Philosopher's. ADK was lurking, jumping onto different people really quickly when he did come on to post, and just generally didn't seem like himself. I would, however, point you and everyone to me D1 of WOT because this looks exactly like that.

I'm not saying jotheonah is behaving like ADK was in Philosopher's, I'm saying the lynches are similar in how they went down (well the joth lynch is not a done thing but I have a hard time seeing someone else be lynched here), because a lot of people on wagon are not voting for their top scum read, it's just that a lot of people have at least a light scum read on him.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well that's fine but there was evidence to back up ADK's lynch even if people didn't really see it that way. I don't see anything to legitimize joth's lynch here. I'm biased, of course, but I'm not going to vote someone for self voting and a strong reaction.

[AndrewisFTTW]

For the record, I'd vote WW or Axxle before joth. And if these three are the only ones in the lynch pool today, then I'll do that.

[Robz888]

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

Sigh...

Day Vigilante.

Sorry! I'm way way way behind, like I said.

[Witherweaver]

Okay I sat down and read from the beginning.  Moves up in scum are Mail-mi and DeDe, and to a lesser extent Teproc.

Mail-mi posts very little, only to sheep two votes and to bring up a "here's something that could indicate Ash may include a dayvig or may not" discussion.  This seems like much more of a red herring than Joth's idea, and in Joth's case, Joth said a lot of other stuff.   

DeDe has mostly posted on non-player-interacting stuff.  Basically he was most active talking about whether we should claim prize/houses.  He had one vote, and it was sheeping, but in my experience (twice), sheeping is a town!DeDe trait.  However,  basically all the other posts were about mechanics (prize/house) or offering some defense on people.  These are easier things to post about as scum than to actually find people scummy and give reasons.

I don't see the town reads on Axxle.  The defense of Joth I thought was disengenuine, and driving up a wagon on someone and then declaring them a town read (for an unconvincing reason) seems like "white knighting" to me.  But easier to make seem legitimate.  It just came off as fabricated.

Teproc seems scummier as well.  He seems more eager to cast suspicion and make cases than town Teproc, who in my eyes is more observant, like a watcher instead of a "do-er".

Yuma, ADK, Andrew still town, probably more so. 

Joth I'm not sure about.  He overreacted, but we've discussed how that's not much of an alignment tell, and so just about all of the overreactions that I have seen have been town. I don't like his self voting and don't buy that it's a town thing.  The original point (that he was posting filler) I think is a good point (exactly what I did in WoT), but not conclusive.  I've also " thought out loud" with ideas as town in HoC.  I'm slight scum on Joth.

I'm not going to vote for Robz and don't really have an opinion there. 

Still null on Faust and Arch. 

My preference here is vote: Mail-mi. 

PPE: 11

[yuma]

Quick break post cause I am aggrivated...

Andrew is a bit scummy for dumbing down the joth wagon. Few if any of us are voting for him based on reactions... You know me about this from wot yes?

Go search my posts to find the one where I talk about this... It isn't a strong reaction that is getting votes...

Joths response has been only to repeatedly berate the lynch without addressing the case itself. He has basically just said over and over 'the Cade is bad and you all should feel bad' and 'there is scum on my wagon' but never said why the wagon is bad or tried to show who the scum are...

In wot when I defended you you responded aggessively but with facts and work and analysis... Joth is doing none of that. He has done no scum hunting or anything and has only voted for people to avoid becoming the lynch... Exactly what he criticized people of doing... Voting for him when he wasn't a scum read. Which was just son false,

joth is a good lynch.

[EFHW]

We're at even parity. Why not no-lynch? Why is it better to lynch someone you don't particularly think is scum.

vote: joth L-2
That's what our supposed dayvig is for.

what does that mean?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok well I guess I need to reread joth then.

[Teproc]

Quick break post cause I am aggrivated...

Andrew is a bit scummy for dumbing down the joth wagon. Few if any of us are voting for him based on reactions... You know me about this from wot yes?

Go search my posts to find the one where I talk about this... It isn't a strong reaction that is getting votes...

Joths response has been only to repeatedly berate the lynch without addressing the case itself. He has basically just said over and over 'the Cade is bad and you all should feel bad' and 'there is scum on my wagon' but never said why the wagon is bad or tried to show who the scum are...

In wot when I defended you you responded aggessively but with facts and work and analysis... Joth is doing none of that. He has done no scum hunting or anything and has only voted for people to avoid becoming the lynch... Exactly what he criticized people of doing... Voting for him when he wasn't a scum read. Which was just son false,

joth is a good lynch.

To be fair to Andrew, I am voting for joth in great part for his overreaction to the wagon.

I think Andrew in WoT is a different situation because it seems to me that Andrew ALWAYS responds very agressively to pressure. Basically I think that's the exception rather than the rule.

[EFHW]

Actually:

Request Robz to replace

I know it sucks, but your job isn't allowing for it right now if you're going to be gone one or two full game days.

Axxle, why Robz?  Arch is lurking worse, w/o vla, and there are other pretty quiet players.

Still hoping for an answer to this.

[EFHW]

joth what is your case against WW?

[jotheonah]

I'm sheeping ADK, who is a strong town read, and has a case based on his QT.

But also, everyone seems to care so much more about "viable wagon" then "good lynch" that I'm pretty keen on creating another viable wagon.

But you know what, I'm very happy to switch my vote to vote: faust.

For this:

Intent to hammer.

joth, if there is something you want to claim, now is the time.

He intented to hammer while EFHW, the IC likely to be NKed, was professedly in the middle of a reread, with plenty of deadline left. It just reads to me like scum that wants to seal the deal before cooler heads prevail.

Now to respond to yuma:

Joths response has been only to repeatedly berate the lynch without addressing the case itself. He has basically just said over and over 'the Cade is bad and you all should feel bad' and 'there is scum on my wagon' but never said why the wagon is bad or tried to show who the scum are...

In wot when I defended you you responded aggessively but with facts and work and analysis... Joth is doing none of that. He has done no scum hunting or anything and has only voted for people to avoid becoming the lynch... Exactly what he criticized people of doing... Voting for him when he wasn't a scum read. Which was just son false,

joth is a good lynch.

See my sig please, a quote from Teproc who seems to have forgotten that particular lesson about me. I freely admit I am not much for day 1 scumhunting. My day 1 philosophy is to post a lot, foster as much interaction as possible, and hope someone slips up somehow. So my day 1s read as "filler" or "contentless" but they're really not. It's what I do. It's what I do every single game I play in.

I have tried scumhunting today, for the record, and I've either been ignored (my early post about Robz) or jumped on (my suggestion about the QTs). Now I'm scumhunting my wagon, which I highly advise as a course of action. And I'm finding Faust and Teproc the scummiest on it. Add to that, by the way, Teproc's sudden obliviousness to my meta and his scummy push for you to use your dayvig, and I think he's also a pretty excellent candidate for lynch.

[Robz888]

Actually:

Request Robz to replace

I know it sucks, but your job isn't allowing for it right now if you're going to be gone one or two full game days.

Axxle, why Robz?  Arch is lurking worse, w/o vla, and there are other pretty quiet players.

Still hoping for an answer to this.

I think replacing out makes things harder for the mod and doesn't necessarily help matters. I will catch up at some point.

[EFHW]

There are two posts by Axxle that haven't been mentioned.  His request to have Robz replaced, which is unprecedented, so far as I know, and his comment that the game is bastard if yuma is town and there are protective roles.  He also never responded to yuma's questioning that post.

If there are protective roles Id call this bastard (minus strongman or something)

Huh?

These sound like worried scum who is maybe partners with Robz (though I know it's silly to think you can call teams on Day 1).

Re joth: I don't actually think his wagon is particularly scummy, but I also can see him being town.  I would like to hear his case against faust, other than OMGUS.

[jotheonah]

faust just seems like the ringleader of the "vote aggressively on a meh wagon just so we get a lynch" troupe

[Axxle]

We're at even parity. Why not no-lynch? Why is it better to lynch someone you don't particularly think is scum.

vote: joth L-2
That's what our supposed dayvig is for.

what does that mean?

I was answering "Why not nolynch?" We can reach 'even parity' with our dayvig for a town controlled kill instead of no lynching and giving scum control of that kill.

As for "Why is it better to lynch someone you don't particularly think is scum." Are you serious? As town I know I can be wrong, but no lynching is *guaranteed* that the person to die won't be scum.

[Axxle]

Actually:

Request Robz to replace

I know it sucks, but your job isn't allowing for it right now if you're going to be gone one or two full game days.

Axxle, why Robz?  Arch is lurking worse, w/o vla, and there are other pretty quiet players.

Still hoping for an answer to this.

I didn't notice arch being lurky, but since he's not explicitly VLA we can call that a scumtell. Robz being very VLA for long periods of time means that we can't get a read at all on him and just hurts the game. It looks like his VLA ended early (or it's not as bad as he made it out to be) so it might not be as bad as I thought it would be.

[Witherweaver]

Confused about parity.  Is it important to worry about that now, or is it more relevant later on?  If we did something to force odd parity today, isn't it pretty likely to change in the next days with whatever unknown roles we have around?  Plus items that could do stuff.

Seems like not the most helpful thing right now.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I reread joth and I still think he's town. I see ADK and WW are voting for mail-mi so count me in.

vote: mail-mi

[jotheonah]

ADK and Andrew are my top town reads, so I'll sheep. vote: mail-mi

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.13:

joth (6):  yuma, chairs, teproc, mail-mi, Axxle, Robz
mail-mi (4):  ADK, WW, Andrew, joth
WW (1):  faust
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.  That's in less than 3 hours.

[Axxle]

Vote: mail-mi

[AndrewisFTTW]

EFHW and chairs, what do you think of mail-mi?

[mail-mi]

Oh gosh is there a wagon on me? A wagon on me for the same reasons I've been mislynched for billion times before? Perhaps for lurking because it's the end of the school year perhaps?

[yuma]

Joth isn't happening... Not thrilled with how we got out of it. Apparently yelling an dprotrsting a lot Is enough for people. And btw I block the sigs so I don't know what that refernces... Blame the dumb pokemon things people use from way back when

mail miy vote, vote: mail-mi isn't for lurking. It is partially that and don't pretend that we haven't caught scum lurking before, including you... But it is for a coupe of things  as well. Look up my post if you want to see

Prob won't be able to post again. Lucky to get two in while at work...

[Teproc]

Joth isn't happening... Not thrilled with how we got out of it. Apparently yelling an dprotrsting a lot Is enough for people. And btw I block the sigs so I don't know what that refernces... Blame the dumb pokemon things people use from way back when

mail miy vote, vote: mail-mi isn't for lurking. It is partially that and don't pretend that we haven't caught scum lurking before, including you... But it is for a coupe of things  as well. Look up my post if you want to see

Prob won't be able to post again. Lucky to get two in while at work...

Before your vote they were both at 5 votes... what makes you think one is more likely to happen than the other ?

I'm fine with a mail-mi lynch but I much prefer joth.

[mail-mi]

I'm not super hot on the joth lynch but if it's that or nothing I'll put my vote there. I plan on being around for deadline but if people want to the be having a conversation now I'm around. yuma, you mentioned mail-mi as someone you would lynch, what's your reasoning for that?

little contribution (basically a lurker), his scum to chum list left me wanting (I know it was asked for, but contrast it to teproc's) and I do feel how he reacted to my claim was a bit suspicious... holding a null read from it, but then pointing out things that are very stretchy to see if they will stick to make me look scummy and less credible

Well I just explained lurking, I just did the scum to chum let on the fly without rereading, and I was just pointing out something I found interesting from WOT.

[faust]

Joth isn't happening... Not thrilled with how we got out of it. Apparently yelling an dprotrsting a lot Is enough for people. And btw I block the sigs so I don't know what that refernces... Blame the dumb pokemon things people use from way back when

mail miy vote, vote: mail-mi isn't for lurking. It is partially that and don't pretend that we haven't caught scum lurking before, including you... But it is for a coupe of things  as well. Look up my post if you want to see

Prob won't be able to post again. Lucky to get two in while at work...

How is joth not happening?

Vote: joth, should have done that earlier.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's L-1 by the way (if you had done it earlier it would have been a hammer).

I don't think joth is a terrible lynch right now TBH. I slightly prefer mail-mi and I vastly prefer WW but the latter doesn't seem to be happening.

[Axxle]

That's L-1 by the way (if you had done it earlier it would have been a hammer).

I don't think joth is a terrible lynch right now TBH. I slightly prefer mail-mi and I vastly prefer WW but the latter doesn't seem to be happening.

it's actually L-3 right now I think. yuma and I jumped ship.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.14:

joth (5):  chairs, teproc, mail-mi, Robz, Faust
mail-mi (6):  ADK, WW, Andrew, joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.  That's in less than 2 hours.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Nobody else vote until we hear from the ICs.

[Axxle]

Vote: mail-mi

[AndrewisFTTW]

Except Axxle.

[jotheonah]

he was already voting

[Teproc]

Vote: mail-mi

Nicely done.

Everyone basically needs to choose beween joth and mail-mi at this point. Everyone not voting for one of these two should switch (I guess if you have a townread on both of them you might prefer no lynch). I'll be here until deadline and will switch to mail-mi if needed to get a lynch through.

[Axxle]

I personally think you guys put WAY too much stock in ICs. It feels like people stopped having conversations just to get IC input multiple times this game day.

[Axxle]

Vote: mail-mi

Nicely done.

Everyone basically needs to choose beween joth and mail-mi at this point. Everyone not voting for one of these two should switch (I guess if you have a townread on both of them you might prefer no lynch). I'll be here until deadline and will switch to mail-mi if needed to get a lynch through.

Agreed but prefer mail-mi to joth as I have the slightest of townreads on the latter.

[EFHW]

I personally think you guys put WAY too much stock in ICs. It feels like people stopped having conversations just to get IC input multiple times this game day.
[/quote

I agree.  It makes me feel like I don't want to vote, bc the group process is more likely to get the right answer than following the IC is.

[EFHW]

Response is in the quote.

[Axxle]

Ok, we have less than an hour. It looks like we only have the people online to either:

EFHW and Teproc vote mailmi for a lynch

Axxle, Andrew, EFHW vote for joth for a lynch.

I'm obviously inclined for the former, but I think we have a pretty good idea of where people stand regardless of where you decide to vote now, EFHW.

I would have liked DD or Arch to weigh in beforehand but that doesn't look like its happening.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm willing to switch but I would prefer a mail-mi lynch as well, he reminds me of myself in philosopher's mafia a bit.

[mail-mi]

A wagon on me for the same reasons I've been mislynched for a billion times before?

[Teproc]

A wagon on me for the same reasons I've been mislynched for a billion times before?

That's the reason we didn't lynch you way back in Game of Thrones. You feel scummier this game than in recent games (although I'll admit you do always play scummy).

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm willing to switch but I would prefer a mail-mi lynch as well, he reminds me of myself in philosopher's mafia a bit.

Yeah that's how I feel too.

[Witherweaver]

I'm here.  I am willing to switch to Joth if needed.

[mail-mi]

I'm here.  I am willing to switch to Joth if needed.

it's needed.

[AndrewisFTTW]

There's no need to switch. mail-mi is at L-2 and is scummier, in my opinion. If you prefer mail-mi you should commit to it at this point.

[Teproc]

One point in favor of a joth lynch as well : he has already passed on the opportunity to claim, mail-mi has not.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.15:

joth (5):  chairs, teproc, mail-mi, Robz, Faust
mail-mi (6):  ADK, WW, Andrew, joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.  That's in less than 30 minutes.

[Witherweaver]

There's no need to switch. mail-mi is at L-2 and is scummier, in my opinion. If you prefer mail-mi you should commit to it at this point.

Need two people to come to Mail-Mi.  Teproc is 1.  I think Faust and Arch are both not on at this time.. so that leaves EFHW, Chairs, DeDe, Robz.

[Axxle]

One point in favor of a joth lynch as well : he has already passed on the opportunity to claim, mail-mi has not.

How often does mafia refuse to claim?

[Teproc]

OK well, looks like I have to switch.

vote : mail-mi

[Teproc]

This is L-1.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.16:

joth (4):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust
mail-mi (7):  ADK, WW, Andrew, joth, Axxle, Yuma, teproc
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, May 12.  That's in ~15 minutes.

[mail-mi]

grrr. i hate that it has to come to this.

I got the prize last night.

[Teproc]

To be clear : I do think mail-mi has a good chance to be scum, almost as much as joth.

But the fact that he got the prize (I knew it because we're in the same frat, along with Robz and yuma), was what made me reluctant. If people want t switch back to joth because of that I'm willing of course.

[mail-mi]

now the effects of the prize are much better if kept secret. so I'm not claiming what it does.

i will also not be claiming my role.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Bleah, really?

Vote: Joth

[mail-mi]

Bleah, really?

Vote: Joth

really. I won the scare game last night (35/105 woot) so my frat. gave it to me.

[mail-mi]

hurry everyone switch to joth so we can have a lynch (on scum)!

[AndrewisFTTW]

The prize doesn't mean mail-mi is town but yeah maybe we should keep him alive a little longer at least...

vote: joth L-1

I hope I'm wrong about joth.

[Axxle]

Bleah, really?

Vote: Joth

really. I won the scare game last night (35/105 woot) so my frat. gave it to me.

F.ing hell I got 34.

[Witherweaver]

Alright then, intent to hammer Joth.

[AndrewisFTTW]

But seriously let's look at mail-mi tomorrow.

[Teproc]

Confirming what mail-mi said.

Also, vote : jotheonah.

PPE : This is the hammer. That's fine with me.

[mail-mi]

Bleah, really?

Vote: Joth

really. I won the scare game last night (35/105 woot) so my frat. gave it to me.

F.ing hell I got 34.

switch!

ppe or witherweaver can too

ppe2 or teproc.

[Witherweaver]

Wait it's L-1 now.  Still intent

[A Drowned Kernel]

PPE: That's L-1 not the hammer

[mail-mi]

he has already passed on the opportunity to claim

.
just hammer

[Witherweaver]

Alright.

Vote: Joth

My first ever hammer.

[AndrewisFTTW]

It's ok Axle, you did good.

Crap, sorry about the vote miscount.

[mail-mi]

Alright.

Vote: Joth

My first ever hammer.

good for you. let's hope its on scum

[Witherweaver]

Alright.

Vote: Joth

My first ever hammer.

good for you. let's hope its on scum

I am.

[yuma]

rushed home, what is the status...

[mail-mi]

rushed home, what is the status...

joth is lynched. i have the prize.

[Axxle]

I'm surprised that mailmi got so high when his group trusted him with the item and claiming that he has the item is enough to get a lot of people to unvote him.

[yuma]

PS I think andrew is scum

[Teproc]

rushed home, what is the status...

mail-mi got to L-1, claimed that he had the prize (thought not what it was), bunch of people switched back to joth who has just been hammered by WW.

[ashersky]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

joth (8):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust, ADK, Andrew, Teproc, WW
mail-mi (3):  joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

[mail-mi]

Alright.

Vote: Joth

My first ever hammer.

good for you. let's hope its on scum

I am.

...? you are scum? or you are hope?

scumslip maybe? probably not.

[yuma]

I'm surprised that mailmi got so high when his group trusted him with the item and claiming that he has the item is enough to get a lot of people to unvote him.

agreed... well agreed that having an item changed people's minds. I doubt it does anything at all... Randal's can of sweat... at least nothing good.

Regardless I am ok lynching joth. Probably the better lynch which really didn't look like it was going to go through...

[Witherweaver]

I'm surprised that mailmi got so high when his group trusted him with the item and claiming that he has the item is enough to get a lot of people to unvote him.

This confused me, too.  But the two people in his group that were voting for him (Yuma, Teproc) preferred Joth initially.

[Teproc]

I'm surprised that mailmi got so high when his group trusted him with the item and claiming that he has the item is enough to get a lot of people to unvote him.

I only voted him because I felt it was that or no lynch.

[yuma]

and I think faust is scum too...

[ashersky]

Thread Locked.

[Witherweaver]

Alright.

Vote: Joth

My first ever hammer.

good for you. let's hope its on scum

I am.

...? you are scum? or you are hope?

scumslip maybe? probably not.

I am hoping.

[ashersky]

The monsters had spent all day trying to figure out who were hidden children in disguise.  Finally, the group decided on someone, but he turned out to have some cool vintage collectible, so they changed their mind at the last minute...

jotheonah, a Vanilla Monster, has been lynched!




Night 1 begins now and will last 48 hours.  All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours.  Let me repeat, all night actions must be submitted within 24 hours.



Scare Game 2 will begin in a few minutes, with all details posted here in thread.  This thread remains locked all night.  QTs will unlock momentarily.

[ashersky]

Scare Game 2 will begin in the next post.  This is a cooperative competition, so houses should work together to complete it.  Like before, it is very hard.

The game is a Google Maps Challenge!  The next post in thread will be a clue.  Over time (up to every hour), I will edit/update the clue to make it easier.  You may use any resource available to you on the Internet to try and solve the clue and find the location on the map.  Screenshots may be emailed to me, or uploaded somewhere and linked in the QT.

Oh...and the prize!  Unlike Scare Game 1, there is more information available about the prize...a Faulty Scream Can!

This yellow can collects all the scream energy within ear shot.  How awesome!  But...you can see a crack in the seal around the top, so it might have problems holding its normal load.  Could be dangerous...if you are lynched while in possession of this item, there is a 50% chance you will survive.

Good luck!

[ashersky]

Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:

Casuarina trees stand guard.
If I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite.
Remember, there is a Synergy to this place.
Not always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.
Enigmatic Ozle is from a different place.

For many here, a sacred wash near the corner of your eye.

[ashersky]

Clue Update #1:



Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:

Casuarina trees stand guard.
If I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite.
Remember, there is a Synergy to this place.
Not always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.
Enigmatic Ozle is from a different place.

For many here, a sacred wash near the corner of your eye.

[ashersky]

Clue Update #2:



Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:

Casuarina trees stand guard.
If I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite: the kestrel.
Remember, there is a Synergy to this place.
Not always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.
Enigmatic Ozle is from a different place.

For many here, a sacred wash near the corner of your eye.

[ashersky]

Clue Update #3:  (Last one until tomorrow, although you shouldn't need any more after this.)



Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:

Casuarina trees stand guard.
If I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite: the kestrel.
Remember, there is a Synergy to this place.  It has become a Habit.
Not always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.
Enigmatic Ozle is from a different place.

For many here, a sacred wash near the corner of your eye.

In Dominion, like many things, Bold plays are Marin's language of choice.

[ashersky]

Clue Update #4:  (Remember, it's like a riddle.  Can't take things literally.)



Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:

Casuarina trees stand guard.
If I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite: the kestrel.
Remember, there is a Synergy to this place.  It has become a Habit.
Not always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.
Enigmatic Ozle is from a different place.

For many here, a sacred wash near the corner of your eye.

In Dominion, like many things, Bold plays are Marin's language of choice.

As a last Resort, Elements at Bay.

[ashersky]

All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours.  Let me repeat, all night actions must be submitted within 24 hours.

Just a reminder -- you have ~2.5 hours to finalize night actions.

[ashersky]

As a clarification for all players:

--you are seeking one particular spot on the globe.  The screenshot must be zoomed in enough to where it is clear to me you found it.  At a minimum, that spot should be centered in your screenshot and the map label visible if turned on.
--all incorrect guesses get the same response no matter how close or far you happen to be: "Incorrect.  Try again."

Edit: To help you with zoom, from fully zoomed in as much as possible, I was able to scroll out four times with the scroll wheel on my mouse before the label disappeared.  So there's your zoom requirement.

[ashersky]

Final Clue Update:  (Remember, it's like a riddle.  Can't take things literally.)



Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:

C asuarina trees stand guard.
I f I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite: the kestrel.
R emember, there is a Synergy to this place.  It has become a Habit.
N ot always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.
E nigmatic Ozle is from a different place.

Look from the corner and see the bath for a sacred animal for many here.  That is what you seek.

In Dominion, like many things, Bold plays are Marin's language of choice.

As a last Resort, Elements at Bay.

[ashersky]

We have a winner!

Congratulations to Roar Omega Roar on winning Scare Game #2.

The solution will be revealed at the end of the night, so feel free to keep searching.  Many of you were on the right track!


Also, night actions are now locked in.  Day 2 starts in 24 hours.

[ashersky]

For those wondering, the location was Bain Boeuf, Mauritius.  See my explanation of the clues below.



Look south from the gunner’s cornerstone. Perhaps a river ran from the rampart many years ago. There:
     Bain Boeuf is on the northern coast of Mauritius.  From there, you can see an island called Gunner's Quoin (cornerstone in French).  It is in the district of Riviere du Rempart (river of the rampart, basically).

C asuarina trees stand guard.  Lots of Casuarina trees on Mauritius, and at Bain Boeuf beach.
I f I land here, I come on the wings of a Jefferies favorite: the kestrel.  I land = island; Air Mauritius has a kestrel as their logo.
R emember, there is a Synergy to this place.  It has become a Habit.  This one stumped everyone.  In the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Habit 6 is "synergy."  In the chapter and movie about it, the author uses Mauritius as his example of synergy due to the way a very diverse population lives together so well.
N ot always a happy cloak to wrap around you here.  "Not happy cloak" = unhappy cloak = unhappy cape = Cap Malheureux, next to Bain Boeuf.
E nigmatic Ozle is from a different place.  Jokey reference to Ozle, who jokingly says he's from an island.

No one seemed to notice for awhile that these five lines' starting letters formed "Cirne," which was the original name of Mauritius.

Look from the corner and see the bath for a sacred animal for many here.  That is what you seek.
     Next to Bain Boeuf is the Coin de Mire Hotel, which is sort of hard to translate, but to me was Corner of the View or Look.  Bain is a wash or bath, and the majority of Mauritius's population is Hindu.  Hence the sacred bath.

In Dominion, like many things, Bold plays are Marin's language of choice.
     All the bolded bits were translations of French words.  Marin speaks French.

As a last Resort, Elements at Bay.
     Elements Bay Resort is very close to Bain Boeuf.

In case anyone was wondering why I chose that spot -- I used to live there.  It's a pretty amazing place.

[ashersky]

As dawn broke over the pristine main quad of Monsters University, our intrepid monster friends filed out of their fraternity houses to again try to find the hidden humans among them.  As they looked around, someone asked, "Hey, where's that yuma guy?"

As they started looking around more furtively, Roz walked up with a number of CDA operatives.  Sully went over to her and asked, "Hey, where's that yuma guy?"

Roz replied, "That's what we're here to ask you.  We received word he'd been contaminated by human children.  Once a human touches you, you know what has to happen.  But when we got to his room to take him away...he was already gone.  We're searching decomissioned doors throughout campus now, as we think he's been tossed into the human world..."

yuma has died.  He was the Town Desperado.  Day 2 begins now.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.0:

Not Voting (12):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust, ADK, Andrew, Teproc, WW, Axxle, DD, EFHW, Archetype

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on May 21 at 7:00 p.m.

[Robz888]

I received an incriminating result on Teproc. Teproc is scum beyond any reasonable doubt.*

*Barring redirecting, bus driving, etc.

[Robz888]

Vote: Teproc

[chairs]

I wish there'd been some protection on yuma to prevent that kill

Teproc:  Your response to Robz888's statement?

[Teproc]

I received an incriminating result on Teproc. Teproc is scum beyond any reasonable doubt.*

*Barring redirecting, bus driving, etc.

Well that is one big asterisk... I have no idea what your result may be, but it's definitely wrong.

Either that or you're lying, but I guess I don't really see why scum would open the day like that.

Also, why did you target me with... whatever your investigative action is ?

[Robz888]

I received an incriminating result on Teproc. Teproc is scum beyond any reasonable doubt.*

*Barring redirecting, bus driving, etc.

Well that is one big asterisk... I have no idea what your result may be, but it's definitely wrong.

Either that or you're lying, but I guess I don't really see why scum would open the day like that.

Also, why did you target me with... whatever your investigative action is ?

I thought it better to target people in my own House, and thus chose you.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Teproc

I really hope you guys didn't give him the lynch-prevention thing.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hmmmm I guess vote: teproc.

If somebody did bus or redirect him they should say so.

Otherwise, I think things are pretty easy from here. I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't bus there own person, and if teproc turns up town, then robz is scummy.

PPE (3)

[Robz888]

Vote: Teproc

I really hope you guys didn't give him the lynch-prevention thing.

We didn't. We gave it to yuma. Which is probably a great reason for Teproc's people to kill him, since he will be extra hard to lynch if it ever came to that. Although the best reason was probably, yuma is yuma.

Let's make sure not to lynch though before everyone appears. Someone else could have another result.

[Teproc]

Hmmmm I guess vote: teproc.

If somebody did bus or redirect him they should say so.

Otherwise, I think things are pretty easy from here. I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't bus there own person, and if teproc turns up town, then robz is scummy.

PPE (3)

Why wouldn't they ? Framing people is good, as your reasoning proves. Maybe scum expected me to be an investigation target for whatever reason, and if people think like you they just got two free mislynches, one of them being an investigative role...

[Robz888]

Vote: Teproc

I really hope you guys didn't give him the lynch-prevention thing.

We didn't. We gave it to yuma. Which is probably a great reason for Teproc's people to kill him, since he will be extra hard to lynch if it ever came to that. Although the best reason was probably, yuma is yuma.

Let's make sure not to lynch though before everyone appears. Someone else could have another result.

[Teproc]

Vote: Teproc

I really hope you guys didn't give him the lynch-prevention thing.

We didn't. We gave it to yuma. Which is probably a great reason for Teproc's people to kill him, since he will be extra hard to lynch if it ever came to that. Although the best reason was probably, yuma is yuma.

Let's make sure not to lynch though before everyone appears. Someone else could have another result.

That makes no sense. First of all I think we got the item after the action deadline, secondly scum definitely wants the item to be out there... that's exactly why we gave it to yuma, the most likely of us to die !

Also, how did ADK know what the item did ? Was this public infomation ?

[Axxle]

Vote: Teproc

I really hope you guys didn't give him the lynch-prevention thing.

We didn't. We gave it to yuma. Which is probably a great reason for Teproc's people to kill him, since he will be extra hard to lynch if it ever came to that. Although the best reason was probably, yuma is yuma.

Let's make sure not to lynch though before everyone appears. Someone else could have another result.

Why did you guys try to win an anti-town item? Our group just didn't try so we wouldn't accidentally give it to scum.

[Axxle]

@Robz: Why did you target Teproc?

[Axxle]

Did yuma give any indication in your QT that he was using his PR?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hmmmm I guess vote: teproc.

If somebody did bus or redirect him they should say so.

Otherwise, I think things are pretty easy from here. I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't bus there own person, and if teproc turns up town, then robz is scummy.

PPE (3)

Why wouldn't they ? Framing people is good, as your reasoning proves. Maybe scum expected me to be an investigation target for whatever reason, and if people think like you they just got two free mislynches, one of them being an investigative role...

With 13 players, the likelihood that a player is investigated and switched correctly seems really slim.

I'm just confused why scum killed Yuma. Especially with two ICs and the fact that scum!teproc would know he had the prize. It's strange

PPE (3)

[Teproc]

Did yuma give any indication in your QT that he was using his PR?

Nope.

As far as your previous question goes, I didn't realize that ash had actually described it. I'm pretty sure Robz, yuma and mail-mi didn't either. Well I don't know about Robz, but yuma, mail-mi and I discussed our disappointment that it was a pro-scum item when we got it.

[Robz888]

I didn't realize we already knew what the item was, either. I'm not been following as closely as I should, I know. Sorry.

I didn't try super hard to win. Teproc and yuma did. Teproc actually did win, but both agreed to give to yuma. I said, sure.

Killing yuma is always a good idea, so.

[Robz888]

@Robz: Why did you target Teproc?

As I said, because it seemed better to try and clear people in my own House first.

[Axxle]

PS I think andrew is scum

and I think faust is scum too...

I'm treating faust as an IC for now. yuma made these posts at the very end of the day which very likely means he used is PR.  http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Desperado_%28Role%29

The only issue is if yuma was roleblocked.

[Teproc]

I mean I guess I'm probably the lynch (unless the redirecting/whatever it was comes from town but I doubt it), but I will say this for the future : don't assume my flip means Robz is scum. I really don't see why scum would come out with a fake result right away. Unless there's multiple scum factions I guess, but there was only one NK, so that seems unlikely.

PPE : Huh ? Desperado is a day action so we'd know if yuma had used it.

[Axxle]

Oh, oops.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Also, how did ADK know what the item did ? Was this public infomation ?

Oh...and the prize!  Unlike Scare Game 1, there is more information available about the prize...a Faulty Scream Can!

This yellow can collects all the scream energy within ear shot.  How awesome!  But...you can see a crack in the seal around the top, so it might have problems holding its normal load.  Could be dangerous...if you are lynched while in possession of this item, there is a 50% chance you will survive.

[Robz888]

Didn't yuma say he was a dayvig, anyway? I'm so confused.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Sorry I guess you figured out that it was.

[A Drowned Kernel]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Desperado_(Role)

It looks like he's a dayvig who dies if he tries to kill a town player, which explains his hesitation to use the power.

[Axxle]

@Python Nu Kappa: Do we want to claim that particular something that we know? I feel like it could be a bit incriminating.

[Teproc]

@Python Nu Kappa: Do we want to claim that particular something that we know? I feel like it could be a bit incriminating.

This is strange. Shouldn't you guys have discussed whatever it is you know already ? Because as it stands you're revealing partial information, which can't be good for town I feel.

[Axxle]

@Python Nu Kappa: Do we want to claim that particular something that we know? I feel like it could be a bit incriminating.

This is strange. Shouldn't you guys have discussed whatever it is you know already ? Because as it stands you're revealing partial information, which can't be good for town I feel.

Let us deal with it. Actually thinking about it the info could probably wait till tomorrow since we're probably just going to lynch you today.

[Teproc]

@Python Nu Kappa: Do we want to claim that particular something that we know? I feel like it could be a bit incriminating.

This is strange. Shouldn't you guys have discussed whatever it is you know already ? Because as it stands you're revealing partial information, which can't be good for town I feel.

Let us deal with it. Actually thinking about it the info could probably wait till tomorrow since we're probably just going to lynch you today.

That's fair but... why say anything then ? I really don't get it.

[Axxle]

That's fair but... why say anything then ? I really don't get it.

I wanted to ask other peoples opinions on it, then decided against it afterwards. What's not to get?

[Teproc]

That's fair but... why say anything then ? I really don't get it.

I wanted to ask other peoples opinions on it, then decided against it afterwards. What's not to get?

Well you gave free info (that people in your QTs know something incrimating) for no reason at all.

That's as if Robz had come out and said : "I have an incrimating result on someone. But I'm not sure if I should say it now !" Either say it or don't, anything in between is almost always bad for town.

[Axxle]

Ok, sure not saying anything would have been best, but I've already said something. Now I have to decide whether saying something more is better or worse for town.

[Axxle]

And I'm not going to say something more just because scum asks, kthx.

[Teproc]

And I'm not going to say something more just because scum asks, kthx.

I'm not saying you should say more, I'm saying you shouldn't have said anything, kthx.

[Axxle]

And I'm not going to say something more just because scum asks, kthx.

I'm not saying you should say more, I'm saying you shouldn't have said anything, kthx.

thx

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.1:

Teproc (3):  Robz888, ADK, DD

Not Voting (9):  chairs, mail-mi, Faust, Andrew, Teproc, WW, Axxle, EFHW, Archetype

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on May 21 at 7:00 p.m.

[Witherweaver]

Still mobile, catching up.

Vote: Teproc .  I can't imagine Robz not telling the truth here.  Plus Teproc's "don't assume Robz is scum when I flip town" strikes me as very disingenuous.

[Teproc]

Still mobile, catching up.

Vote: Teproc .  I can't imagine Robz not telling the truth here.  Plus Teproc's "don't assume Robz is scum when I flip town" strikes me as very disingenuous.

Disingenuous how ? I'm going to be mislynched, but I don't think Robz is necessarily scum, not sure what's so strange about that ?

[Robz888]

Teproc is reacting like quintessential caught scum here. The mini attack on Axxle is like a "must try everything!" deal.

[Teproc]

Teproc is reacting like quintessential caught scum here. The mini attack on Axxle is like a "must try everything!" deal.

I'm a little pissed because I'm obviously going to be lynched based on a false result. I'm trying to get interactions with people before I die because I think scum will be uncomfortable interacting with a dead townie walking.

[Witherweaver]

Still mobile, catching up.

Vote: Teproc .  I can't imagine Robz not telling the truth here.  Plus Teproc's "don't assume Robz is scum when I flip town" strikes me as very disingenuous.

Disingenuous how ? I'm going to be mislynched, but I don't think Robz is necessarily scum, not sure what's so strange about that ?

It was too blatent "Hey I'm trying to help town guys".

[mail-mi]

Well well well. I guess there's nothing to say but Vote: teproc

[Teproc]

Still mobile, catching up.

Vote: Teproc .  I can't imagine Robz not telling the truth here.  Plus Teproc's "don't assume Robz is scum when I flip town" strikes me as very disingenuous.

Disingenuous how ? I'm going to be mislynched, but I don't think Robz is necessarily scum, not sure what's so strange about that ?

It was too blatent "Hey I'm trying to help town guys".

Right. Townies should not be blatant about helping town because... what ?

[Archetype]

Hey can people, like, stop voting.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.2:

Teproc (5):  Robz888, ADK, DD, WW, mail-mi

Not Voting (9):  chairs, Faust, Andrew, Teproc, Axxle, EFHW, Archetype

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on May 21 at 7:00 p.m.

[Teproc]

Well I guess I'll reiterate my reads in case I'm lynched during the night (real life night I mean) : I think mail-mi, ADK and WW are the most likely people to be scummy... also yuma dying definitely makes Andrew and faust more scummy, he was pretty adamant about them being scum and people rarely bother to analyze night kills, so scum tends to kill people who have scum reads on them a lot.

ADK and DD are likely town, Robz as well. Arch I have no idea about, he's barely in this game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Hey can people, like, stop voting.

Why? I mean we shouldn't just lynch him without discussion but as long as no one derphammmers a vote is a perfectly adequate way of saying "I'm down with the lynch"

PPE: I'm likely town and likely scum?

[Teproc]

Hey can people, like, stop voting.

Why? I mean we shouldn't just lynch him without discussion but as long as no one derphammmers a vote is a perfectly adequate way of saying "I'm down with the lynch"

PPE: I'm likely town and likely scum?

Oops, Axxle was the one who is likely town.

[Witherweaver]

Hey can people, like, stop voting.

Why?  Might as well get people down that are willing to lynch if nothing changes Robz' result.  Don't hammer yet, obviously, until we cover everything.  But we can get him to L-1/L-2.

PPE: 4

[Witherweaver]

Actually we're at L-2 now.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not saying that Yuma's reads aren't worth analyzing but I'm willing to bet that him being a Dayvig was a bigger factor in him being the NK.

[Archetype]

Hey can people, like, stop voting.

Why?  Might as well get people down that are willing to lynch if nothing changes Robz' result.  Don't hammer yet, obviously, until we cover everything.  But we can get him to L-1/L-2.

PPE: 4

If he gets to L-1, he can self-hammer and end the day early.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So we're at L-2 then, we'll give everyone a chance to chime in.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh hey! So Teproc is scum? I noticed his posts were overly aggressive D1. I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1.

[Witherweaver]

Hey can people, like, stop voting.

Why?  Might as well get people down that are willing to lynch if nothing changes Robz' result.  Don't hammer yet, obviously, until we cover everything.  But we can get him to L-1/L-2.

PPE: 4

If he gets to L-1, he can self-hammer and end the day early.

Okay I see. 

PPE: No don't.  State intent but leave him at L-2

[chairs]

Oh hey! So Teproc is scum? I noticed his posts were overly aggressive D1. I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1.

Please don't.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Alrighty.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think everyone but faust has posted today.

[A Drowned Kernel]

EFHW has yet to post. Also, if Teproc does flip scum (which I think he will) I think that makes mail-mi very scummy in my eyes. When mail-mi claimed the prize yesterday he had that hedgy post about switching to joth. Rereading day one with Teproc's (probable) alignment in mind is going to be very informative and we might as well start talking about it today.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yeah I've been getting vibes from mail-mi. And not the good kind. Funny how Teproc and I haven't agreed on anything and you and I have agreed on (mostly) everything.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's kind of an enigmatic comment.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yeah I forgot we were playing mafia for a second.

[EFHW]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

Robz, what can you tell about the conversation that led to yuma getting the second prize?  Anything there to indicate Teproc's alignment?

Axxle if your information can shed light on the Teproc question then you might want to share it. 

Why is Faust IC-ish?

[Axxle]

Axxle if your information can shed light on the Teproc question then you might want to share it.

It would not.

[mail-mi]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Yeah, we know.

[Axxle]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Thats what I wanted to claim. mailmi should have saw that we mentioned we weren't going after the prize because it was anti-town. It was a bit late in the night but I still think mailmi should have been able to relay it.

[mail-mi]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Thats what I wanted to claim. mailmi should have saw that we mentioned we weren't going after the prize because it was anti-town. It was a bit late in the night but I still think mailmi should have been able to relay it.

I didn't see it until after we'd already found the place.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.3:

Teproc (5):  Robz888, ADK, DD, WW, mail-mi

Not Voting (9):  chairs, Faust, Andrew, Teproc, Axxle, EFHW, Archetype

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on May 21 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Yeah, we know.

How did you know?

[Witherweaver]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Thats what I wanted to claim. mailmi should have saw that we mentioned we weren't going after the prize because it was anti-town. It was a bit late in the night but I still think mailmi should have been able to relay it.

This is confusing.  Mail-Mi said spy.. you know that you've been spied upon?

[Witherweaver]

I was also under the impression that the prize would be awarded regardless.  Did Ash tell you that if everyone refused the challenge, then no one would get it?

[chairs]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Yeah, we know.

How did you know?

This, so much.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not saying that Yuma's reads aren't worth analyzing but I'm willing to bet that him being a Dayvig was a bigger factor in him being the NK.

Well, yes, but a someone that thought Yuma had a scum read on them might want to get rid of him to avoid getting vig'd. 

But Yuma's reads are worth considering because he has decent reads.  I don't think there was any kind of misdirection or ulterior motive there.. I think he predicted he might die during the night, so he wanted to get any last thoughts out during twilight. 

[Witherweaver]

Why is Faust IC-ish?

I think this was Axxle thinking that Yuma's action was a night action, that Yuma would target Faust (because of a scum read on him), and Yuma was therefore killed because Faust was town.  (Yuma's role was a dayvig that backfired and killed himself if he did not target scum.)  I think Axxle recanted it once it was pointed out that Yuma's ability was day only.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Yeah, we know.

How did you know?

This, so much.

ash said something like someone is probably in the house and gave us another QT.

[Axxle]

intent to vote teproc

[Witherweaver]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Yeah, we know.

How did you know?

This, so much.

ash said something like someone is probably in the house and gave us another QT.

Wait, so Mail-Mi gets an item that lets him spy on a house.  He chooses your house.  Then Ash tells everyone in your house that you have a spy and to use another QT? (I suppose through PM's.) That seems to kind of defeat the purpose of spying.

I guess it's easy to verify, though.  And this makes what Axxle was saying make a little more sense.

[Robz888]

Would love some Doctor protection, by the way.

[chairs]

Has mail mi posted?  I'm wondering if he used his prize.

okay so I'm just going to come out and claim this now: the prize was a bit mediocre. It allowed me to spy on any other frat, and I had to use it before the halfway point of D1. So, PNK, I've been spying on you.

Yeah, we know.

How did you know?

This, so much.

ash said something like someone is probably in the house and gave us another QT.

Wait, so Mail-Mi gets an item that lets him spy on a house.  He chooses your house.  Then Ash tells everyone in your house that you have a spy and to use another QT? (I suppose through PM's.) That seems to kind of defeat the purpose of spying.

I guess it's easy to verify, though.  And this makes what Axxle was saying make a little more sense.

Actually, that gives me some ideas.

[faust]

I realized I hadn't posted here yet. Well, not much to say. We should follow Robz here for sure. I have no reason to think Teproc is town.

I can confirm the infiltration of our sorority. I was inclined to think that the person going for the prize tonight might be scum, because it's an anti-town prize, but it turns out that problem solved itself. Still, seriously guys, read the mod posts, they're important. I will not accept excuses like that in the future. Slight FOS on mail-mi for that.

We should also note that scum can always talk during the Scare Games. That means tonight, scum could talk to more people to solve the riddle, and thus they're more likely to win.

[faust]

Robz, why did you claim your result right at the beginning, though? You killed all other wagons and interactions we could have had today.

[Robz888]

Robz, why did you claim your result right at the beginning, though? You killed all other wagons and interactions we could have had today.

Sorry. As far as I can recall, I have *never* received an incriminating night result in 50 mafia games. I was super excited. And since I'm currently traveling and have unsteady access, I wanted to just get the revelation out of the way.

[EFHW]

I don't understand the decision not to go for the lynchproof prize.  Wouldn't town prefer to have control of it, so you would try to get it if you could?  How was that decision made (who said what?)

[Axxle]

I don't understand the decision not to go for the lynchproof prize.  Wouldn't town prefer to have control of it, so you would try to get it if you could?  How was that decision made (who said what?)

If no one went for it no one would have it.

[Witherweaver]

I don't understand the decision not to go for the lynchproof prize.  Wouldn't town prefer to have control of it, so you would try to get it if you could?  How was that decision made (who said what?)

If no one went for it no one would have it.

How do you know this?  He may have just awarded it randomly.

[Axxle]

I don't understand the decision not to go for the lynchproof prize.  Wouldn't town prefer to have control of it, so you would try to get it if you could?  How was that decision made (who said what?)

If no one went for it no one would have it.

How do you know this?  He may have just awarded it randomly.

We were told we were competing to win it, if we don't win it we don't get it. There wasn't any rule about what happens if no one wins it.

Vote: Teproc

[Witherweaver]

I don't understand the decision not to go for the lynchproof prize.  Wouldn't town prefer to have control of it, so you would try to get it if you could?  How was that decision made (who said what?)

If no one went for it no one would have it.

How do you know this?  He may have just awarded it randomly.

We were told we were competing to win it, if we don't win it we don't get it. There wasn't any rule about what happens if no one wins it.

Vote: Teproc

Well, first competition was best-score-wins, I would think this one was closest-submission-wins.  If no one submitted anything, it would be like three people tying, and there's probably some way to determine ties.

Why do you want to vote for Teproc now?  Do you disagree with Arch's warning?

[Axxle]

I don't really think we'll get much more out of today and others can unvote if they really want.

Why didn't you mention anything when I stated intent to vote?

[Witherweaver]

I don't really think we'll get much more out of today and others can unvote if they really want.

Why didn't you mention anything when I stated intent to vote?

I had assumed you were stating intent so that you hard a record down that you were in to vote, but were going to wait until we're ready to proceed.. at least an okay from the IC's.  It's only been about a day and there are a handfull of people that haven't posted much.

[Witherweaver]

Unvote

[Axxle]

at least an okay from the IC's.

NO!

The ICs are NOT the gods of this game. They're confirmed town, sure, but that just means that we can trust them not to manipulate us. That does not mean their opinions should dictate EVERYTHING we do.

I mean look at yesterday. There was so much waiting for IC permission before they pursued anything that we completely flailed at the deadline.

If *you* want the day to go longer say it. Don't hide behind an IC.

[Axxle]

[Witherweaver]

But we can trust that the IC's opinion will be what they legitimately think is in our best interest.  We can't think that of anyone else.  So it makes sense to take their ideas into consideration.  I'm not saying blindly follow them, but something like not ending today after less than 24 hours seems very reasonable. 

Chairs' last message was "Actually, that gives me some ideas."  There may have been something he wanted to pursue today.

[Witherweaver]

And not just the IC's.  Archetype and Faust have barely posted.  Other people might want to reread.  Teproc reads to me like someone who knows he's caught, in which case quickhammering himself might be a good choice.

[chairs]

But we can trust that the IC's opinion will be what they legitimately think is in our best interest.  We can't think that of anyone else.  So it makes sense to take their ideas into consideration.  I'm not saying blindly follow them, but something like not ending today after less than 24 hours seems very reasonable. 

Chairs' last message was "Actually, that gives me some ideas."  There may have been something he wanted to pursue today.

Well... basically it makes my read on mail-mi a bit more leaning towards town.

[Witherweaver]

But we can trust that the IC's opinion will be what they legitimately think is in our best interest.  We can't think that of anyone else.  So it makes sense to take their ideas into consideration.  I'm not saying blindly follow them, but something like not ending today after less than 24 hours seems very reasonable. 

Chairs' last message was "Actually, that gives me some ideas."  There may have been something he wanted to pursue today.

Well... basically it makes my read on mail-mi a bit more leaning towards town.

Why is this?

[chairs]

But we can trust that the IC's opinion will be what they legitimately think is in our best interest.  We can't think that of anyone else.  So it makes sense to take their ideas into consideration.  I'm not saying blindly follow them, but something like not ending today after less than 24 hours seems very reasonable. 

Chairs' last message was "Actually, that gives me some ideas."  There may have been something he wanted to pursue today.

Well... basically it makes my read on mail-mi a bit more leaning towards town.

Why is this?

My expectation was that for Mafia it would make the already-sneaky human children that much sneakier v0v.

Perhaps, though, I'm just trying to read too much into the setup, and ultimately it's a null tell I suppose.

[Witherweaver]

But we can trust that the IC's opinion will be what they legitimately think is in our best interest.  We can't think that of anyone else.  So it makes sense to take their ideas into consideration.  I'm not saying blindly follow them, but something like not ending today after less than 24 hours seems very reasonable. 

Chairs' last message was "Actually, that gives me some ideas."  There may have been something he wanted to pursue today.

Well... basically it makes my read on mail-mi a bit more leaning towards town.

Why is this?

My expectation was that for Mafia it would make the already-sneaky human children that much sneakier v0v.

Perhaps, though, I'm just trying to read too much into the setup, and ultimately it's a null tell I suppose.

I'm not following...

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.4:

Teproc (5):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle

Not Voting (9):  chairs, Faust, Andrew, Teproc, EFHW, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on May 21 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

I don't understand the decision not to go for the lynchproof prize.  Wouldn't town prefer to have control of it, so you would try to get it if you could?  How was that decision made (who said what?)

If no one went for it no one would have it.

How do you know this?  He may have just awarded it randomly.

And how do you know the other houses will do the same?

[EFHW]

vote: Axxle  He isn't making sense to me about not trying for the prize and now he is rushing the Teproc vote and trying to diminish the influence of the IC opinions.  I don't agree with sheeping the ICs, but I also don't agree with discouraging town from asking the ICs questions.  I can vote Teproc if needed, but let's use this time for more scumhunting.

[Axxle]

He isn't making sense to me about not trying for the prize

How does it not make sense? If no one gets the prize we don't have an anti town power in the game. Do you remember how town reacted to mailmi in The Philosopher's Mafia?

[Axxle]

let's use this time for more scumhunting.

How do you want to go about doing that? Most of the town is on autopilot mode right now.

[Axxle]

zzzzz

[faust]

I agree with Axxle.

Vote: Teproc

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.5:

Teproc (6):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust
Axxle (1):. EFHW

Not Voting (5):  chairs, Andrew, Teproc, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on May 21 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

I'd probably look at mailmi and Faust tomorrow if Teproc is scum.

Please instalynch robz tomorrow if Teproc is town.

Robz might still be scum anyway even if Teproc is scum. This might be his crazy way to make up for vlaness (pronounced vullahness)

[Teproc]

vote : Teproc

[faust]

vote : Teproc

Sorry, man. You just seem to die early like all the time recently.

[Teproc]

vote : Teproc

Sorry, man. You just seem to die early like all the time recently.

Yeah. I think the last time I made it past night 2 was Dynasty Warriors II...

It's a good thing I actually enjoy day 1

[ashersky]

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

Teproc (7):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust, Teproc
Axxle (1):. EFHW

Not Voting (5):  chairs, Andrew, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[ashersky]

The monsters decided quickly today.  They grabbed Teproc by the arm and were surprised when his arm slid off.  A costume!

Teproc, the Human Child 2-Shot Janitor, has been lynched!

Night 2 begins now!  Thread locked!

[ashersky]

It's time for Scare Game #3!  It's a Dominion challenge!

All houses will compete in the First Ever Monsters University Dominion Tournament!  Each House needs to nominate its representative for this event in their QT.  Do you think you have what it takes to defeat a mod at the ever-changing, ever-amazing game of Dominion?  We shall see!

The winning house will receive tonight's prize -- a Decommissioned Door!  Seems like when a Door gets decommissioned, they just unplug it and store it.  I wonder what would happen if you plugged it in one night?

Tournament information:
Each House Challenger will play up to three games.  Points will be awarded for wins, draws, and losses.  In games 1 and 2, the House Challenger will start as second player.  Wins are worth 2 points, ties are worth 0 points, and losses are worth -1 point.  If the House Challenger wins or loses both games, your tournament time is over.  A third game is played if the first two games are split in any way.  The house challenger goes first in game 3.  A win is worth 1.5 points, a tie is worth .5 points, and a loss is worth -1 point.

Due to timing issues, this challenge may or may not be completed during the 48-hour night.  The deadline for completion will be the end of D3, whenever that may be.  Please do your best to complete the challenge as soon as schedules allow.

All further announcements and details will come in thread after competitors have been selected.

[ashersky]

Night actions due in 48 hours, given the weekend is coming.  Day 3 will start on Sunday night.

[ashersky]

Challengers have been selected!

For ROR, we have Robz888!
For OZ, we have A Drowned Kernel!
For PNK, we have Faust!

So, can any of these players beat a mod at Dominion?  We will see!

And that mod is...AI/ragingduckd!  (You didn't think you'd get me, did you?  Remember, these challenges are hard!).  Please PM ragingduckd to arrange your matches over the next week.

Good luck!

[ashersky]

The morning was another beautiful one on the Monsters University campus, except for, well, you know.  The Human Children scare had been escalating, and no one was hosting parties or chess club gatherings or anything.  It was sort of dull over night.

The monster crew searching for the infiltrators gathered on the quad again, and immediately they realized something was wrong.  They stopped a wandering CDA patrol to ask what was up.

"Well, that A Drowned Kernel friend of yours...unfortunately he got contaminated by contact with a human child, so he's in quarantine.  The other one, Robz?  We suspect he's been tossed through a Door somewhere.  We're still looking."  The CDA official wandering off in his yellow suit.

A Drowned Kernel*, the Vanilla Monster, has been killed!
Robz888*, the 3-Shot Role Cop and Coroner, has been killed!

Day 3 begins now!



*As competitors in the Night 2 Scare Game (Dominion challenge), these players will be expected to finish the challenge on behalf of their houses and will still be eligible for the prize.  They may not post in thread or QT though, as they are dead.

[mail-mi]

And then there was one (ROR)...

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.0:

Not Voting (9):  EFHW, chairs, Andrew, Archetype, WW, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: WW

ADK was the one who brought up suspicion of WW on D1 so from a SK standpoint, ADK is a likely target. I guess if there's a third party they were roleblocked N1? WW is also a likely N1 roleblock target. I'm still suspicious of mail-mi and to a lesser extent DD although I'm not familiar with his playstyle so I'm not really sure about that. I'll do some rereading.

[Delirious Deleuze]

So two kills, we have another scum faction, a nightvig, or a SK.


EFHW -town

chairs - town

Andrew - town. I get this vibe from him. I'd have to reread more in depth but as of now I have no suspicion. I don't agree with his analysis of the NK. I don't think WW would kill the person calling him out if he was the SK, he's too smart for that and he'd know people would call him out. I also don't like reading too much into night kills.

Archetype - null

WW - town, definitely. I don't see why people have suspicion on him. I have found his posts helpful for town, and leading to good content to discuss. Entering day 3 I don't see much suspicion.

mail-mi - slight scum read because of lurkiness and general lack of content to analyze.

Axxle - weird but town.

Faust - scum. He's been hiding in the background, hasn't had any real reads or anything more than jumping on wagons. This is the same as when he was sci in HoC. He's also posting a lot in his ore mafia game, XMen, which means he's been of these forums. I find this really suspicious. He's definitely giving me the hiding scum vibe.

vote: faust

[Witherweaver]

vote: WW

ADK was the one who brought up suspicion of WW on D1 so from a SK standpoint, ADK is a likely target. I guess if there's a third party they were roleblocked N1? WW is also a likely N1 roleblock target. I'm still suspicious of mail-mi and to a lesser extent DD although I'm not familiar with his playstyle so I'm not really sure about that. I'll do some rereading.

So you're saying I'm an SK?  I'm not, and I wasn't responsible for the kills.  ADK dying makes me suspect Mail-Mi more.  ADK implicated Mail-Mi heavily at the end of yesterday.  Though, ADK was acting very towny throughout, so he may have just been killed because there was no chance of him getting lynched.  Mail-Mi also would have been a likely Night-1 roleblock target, since he narrowly escaped a lynch by claiming that he got the prize.

Roleblocking isn't necessarily what happened N1 though.  There are two IC's and those are natural targets for kills.  One (or both?) could have just been protected Night 1.  They also may have been protected Night 2 in lieu of Robz.

[Axxle]

Mafia didn't use their janitor on yuma, that makes me think he wasn't a mafia kill but rather an sk. Sk makes most sense simce town already has a killing role anyway (desperado).

I like mailmi as a partner for Teproc because of how Teproc approached the day 1 wagons.

vote: Mail mi

Is he the last one in his frat?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.1:

WW (1):  Andrew
faust (1):  DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (6):  EFHW, chairs, Archetype, WW, mail-mi, faust

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Mafia didn't use their janitor on yuma, that makes me think he wasn't a mafia kill but rather an sk. Sk makes most sense simce town already has a killing role anyway (desperado).

I like mailmi as a partner for Teproc because of how Teproc approached the day 1 wagons.

vote: Mail mi

Is he the last one in his frat?

How do we know mafia has the janitor ability?

And maybe both mafia and the Sk targeted Yuma?

Could it be another mafia faction? This would really throw a wrench in the equation. I want to say no, given the number of players and the lack of kill d1, but I don't know. It'd make more sense a SK wouldn't kill night one and hide instead so people don't know they're there. Hmm

Let me reread d1 and the interactions between ADK and mail-mi and wither weaver, though idk about analyzing night kills very much.

[Axxle]

I am double face palming right now.

[Axxle]

Teproc was a jainitor

[Archetype]

I think there's 4 different explanations for why we don't have a janitored player dead N1:

1. Teproc was blocked
2. Teproc's target was protected
3. Teproc (or really, anyone else) chose not to Janitor anyone and completed the kill as normal
4. Mafia have a better night kill modifier that they used instead of Teproc's

I think 3 is the most unlikely because it's better to use janitors early game when the Town doesn't know what a player's role is as opposed to later. 4 opens up a whole lot more possibilities.

My opinion is that if we have a Town Roleblocker who didn't target Teproc that they should immediatly claim their N1 action. It's possible that whoever they blocked was a vig, but I agree with Axxle that its unlikely when you take the Desperado into account.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Teproc was a jainitor

Whoops, I'm dumb, sorry.

Okay, I have to go to my second job for a bit, but I just reread day 1.

Vote: WW

He is definitely scum. I implore y'all to go reread his interactions with Teproc. Teproc leads a wagon on him and then switches it without a lot of analysis of Witherweaver and never brings the focus back on him after switching the wagon. It seems like a great way to push the "he was lynched and I lead the charge, I'm town Lololol." Card.

Witherweaver does a good job white knighting Joth by switching votes to mail-mi at one point (on an iPad so quotes are hard.)

Overall, his posts, In relation to teproc a, are scummy. Especially their reads on each other.

Witherweaver is scum. Still don't know the serial killer though.

From reading day one, I have to reread mail-mi I day two, but right now I think WW is scum.

Spot her possible scum, from most to least are Faust, mail-mi. Perhaps a scum triangle of Faust, WW, teproc. And a serial killer mail-mi.

I'll post more after I get home and reread mail-mi in day two, seeing as he was absent day one.

Ppe (1)

[Delirious Deleuze]

I am double face palming right now.

Double sorry. long day

[Witherweaver]

Teproc was a jainitor

Whoops, I'm dumb, sorry.

Okay, I have to go to my second job for a bit, but I just reread day 1.

Vote: WW

He is definitely scum. I implore y'all to go reread his interactions with Teproc. Teproc leads a wagon on him and then switches it without a lot of analysis of Witherweaver and never brings the focus back on him after switching the wagon. It seems like a great way to push the "he was lynched and I lead the charge, I'm town Lololol." Card.

Witherweaver does a good job white knighting Joth by switching votes to mail-mi at one point (on an iPad so quotes are hard.)

Overall, his posts, In relation to teproc a, are scummy. Especially their reads on each other.

Witherweaver is scum. Still don't know the serial killer though.

From reading day one, I have to reread mail-mi I day two, but right now I think WW is scum.

Spot her possible scum, from most to least are Faust, mail-mi. Perhaps a scum triangle of Faust, WW, teproc. And a serial killer mail-mi.

I'll post more after I get home and reread mail-mi in day two, seeing as he was absent day one.

Ppe (1)

I don't really follow any of this.  Teproc didn't lead the wagon on me, and I didn't white knight Joth at all. (I hammered him.)  Not really sure where you're getting this.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On mobile and walking a dog. I got to be brief.

White knighting was the wrong term, rather right before he was lynched you started to start to accuse others and shift your focus. Seems an easy way to see him get lynched as town and then say you didn't want to lynch him. Sure you hammered but right before you hammered your posts were telling.

And as for reprocessing and you, I'm not going to quote in mobile every post y'all had together. People go read their interactions. They always had "slight scum" reads on each other and tepric was outspoken against ww before magically just attacking town ! Joth

[Delirious Deleuze]

Meant teproc and you

[EFHW]

Just checking in.  9 alive, 2 confirmed town, we are getting close to good POE. 

[Witherweaver]

On mobile and walking a dog. I got to be brief.

White knighting was the wrong term, rather right before he was lynched you started to start to accuse others and shift your focus. Seems an easy way to see him get lynched as town and then say you didn't want to lynch him. Sure you hammered but right before you hammered your posts were telling.

And as for reprocessing and you, I'm not going to quote in mobile every post y'all had together. People go read their interactions. They always had "slight scum" reads on each other and tepric was outspoken against ww before magically just attacking town ! Joth

Hm.. I don't really agree with your analysis.  I wasn't able to carefully follow a lot of Day1 (was on VLA), and shortly before the deadline I did a reread.  Afterwords I posted what I thought, with my reads.  I didn't have the strongest scum read on Joth, but I wasn't unwilling to lynch him, nor was I defending him.  My preference was Mail-Mi, and I was willing to go Joth as well (and I did, after Mail-Mi wasn't happening).  I don't agree on the "They always had 'slight scum' reads on each other" statement too.  I think Teproc was outspoken on me because he was scum hopping on a wagon that looked promising.  It didn't end up working out, so he abandoned it.

[faust]

Just checking in.  9 alive, 2 confirmed town, we are getting close to good POE.

The fact that both ICs are still alive implies that there are two scum factions (mafia and SK) by the way. Each of them is trying to kill members of the other team over the ICs.

[faust]

Faust - scum. He's been hiding in the background, hasn't had any real reads or anything more than jumping on wagons. This is the same as when he was sci in HoC. He's also posting a lot in his ore mafia game, XMen, which means he's been of these forums. I find this really suspicious. He's definitely giving me the hiding scum vibe.

vote: faust

It's great. When I'm active, I'm scm because I'm active, when I'm a bit more in the background, I'm scum because of that. Sorry that my focus of attention was on X-Men. I'll try to get more into this.

[faust]

vote: WW

ADK was the one who brought up suspicion of WW on D1 so from a SK standpoint, ADK is a likely target. I guess if there's a third party they were roleblocked N1? WW is also a likely N1 roleblock target. I'm still suspicious of mail-mi and to a lesser extent DD although I'm not familiar with his playstyle so I'm not really sure about that. I'll do some rereading.

ADK's flip is quite convenient for starting a WW wagon. I'm wary of Andrew here...

[faust]

I understand how Robz was so excited about his result now btw. Catching scum with a Role Cop? Awesome.

[faust]

WW - town, definitely. I don't see why people have suspicion on him. I have found his posts helpful for town, and leading to good content to discuss. Entering day 3 I don't see much suspicion.

Vote: WW

He is definitely scum. I implore y'all to go reread his interactions with Teproc. Teproc leads a wagon on him and then switches it without a lot of analysis of Witherweaver and never brings the focus back on him after switching the wagon. It seems like a great way to push the "he was lynched and I lead the charge, I'm town Lololol." Card.

This is super weird, not sure what to make of it. I think scum hopping a wagon is more likely than town making a whole turnaround.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: WW

ADK was the one who brought up suspicion of WW on D1 so from a SK standpoint, ADK is a likely target. I guess if there's a third party they were roleblocked N1? WW is also a likely N1 roleblock target. I'm still suspicious of mail-mi and to a lesser extent DD although I'm not familiar with his playstyle so I'm not really sure about that. I'll do some rereading.

ADK's flip is quite convenient for starting a WW wagon. I'm wary of Andrew here...

I've seen SK and scum target people who suspected them before. I think TA killed you in WoT for that reason, right? And I think shraeye was killed for the same reason, though that was never explained. I still have yet to reread but this was my first thought when I saw that ADK was killed.

[faust]

vote: WW

ADK was the one who brought up suspicion of WW on D1 so from a SK standpoint, ADK is a likely target. I guess if there's a third party they were roleblocked N1? WW is also a likely N1 roleblock target. I'm still suspicious of mail-mi and to a lesser extent DD although I'm not familiar with his playstyle so I'm not really sure about that. I'll do some rereading.

ADK's flip is quite convenient for starting a WW wagon. I'm wary of Andrew here...

I've seen SK and scum target people who suspected them before. I think TA killed you in WoT for that reason, right? And I think shraeye was killed for the same reason, though that was never explained. I still have yet to reread but this was my first thought when I saw that ADK was killed.

I does make sense, but I think in this setup, scum really wants to kill the ICs over eliminating the players that suspect them. But right, there must be some reason ADK was killed.

[Archetype]

Just checking in.  9 alive, 2 confirmed town, we are getting close to good POE.

The fact that both ICs are still alive implies that there are two scum factions (mafia and SK) by the way. Each of them is trying to kill members of the other team over the ICs.

I think this could be a possibility for N2's deaths, but I wouldn't say the same for N1's death. A SK knows that there is a main Mafia faction, but the Mafia wouldn't be shooting for a SK if they weren't certain there was one.

ADK is a weird kill, though. I understand the Robz death and am pretty sure it's Mafia-induced, but if I were a SK I'd much rather kill an IC over some unknown. Especially since all protective roles should be directed at Robz.

[faust]

Also Robz, if you're reading this, I think the best course of action for you is do not win the challenge. mail-mi will get to decide on his own what to do with the prize, and that's no good.

[Archetype]

vote : Teproc

Sorry, man. You just seem to die early like all the time recently.

Huge townread on Faust from this post. I'd expect sympathy like this to come from a Townie - not a scum partner.

[Witherweaver]

Mafia didn't use their janitor on yuma, that makes me think he wasn't a mafia kill but rather an sk. Sk makes most sense simce town already has a killing role anyway (desperado).

I like mailmi as a partner for Teproc because of how Teproc approached the day 1 wagons.

vote: Mail mi

Is he the last one in his frat?

How do we know mafia has the janitor ability?

And maybe both mafia and the Sk targeted Yuma?

Could it be another mafia faction? This would really throw a wrench in the equation. I want to say no, given the number of players and the lack of kill d1, but I don't know. It'd make more sense a SK wouldn't kill night one and hide instead so people don't know they're there. Hmm

Let me reread d1 and the interactions between ADK and mail-mi and wither weaver, though idk about analyzing night kills very much.

Three thoughts on this: 

One, why did you suddenly decide to read the interactions between ADK, Mail-Mi, and myself, in response to Axxle thinking Mail-Mi was likely Teproc's partner?  This indicates that you're looking into whether Axxle is correct or not about Mail-Mi, but you're also tossing me in there after previously stating a fairly strong town read.  This strikes me as a little constructed: he's town, okay let me reread him (but in response to comments about someone else and not about me), and then, oh hey he's scum.

Secondly, you made a point of stating how you don't like analyzing night kills, twice in fact.  For one, why don't you like analyzing night kills?  As far as I know, you've only played two games, and both of those you weren't alive for the second day.  So what makes you think analyzing night kills isn't fruitful?  And also, saying you don't like doing this and then going ahead and doing seems like one of those hedgey statements.

Thirdly, you've pointed out twice that there can be two separate mafia/scum teams.  As if you really want us to be thinking about this:

Could it be another mafia faction? This would really throw a wrench in the equation. I want to say no, given the number of players and the lack of kill d1, but I don't know. It'd make more sense a SK wouldn't kill night one and hide instead so people don't know they're there. Hmm

and previously:

So two kills, we have another scum faction, a nightvig, or a SK.

Particularly in the latter one, "scum faction" and "SK" are listed separately.  And it's stated as a question the second time, as if you just thought of the possibility, but you brought it up previously.

[AndrewisFTTW]

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

Speaking of forced, this post gives me the heebie jeebies. I'm gonna reread real quick.

This is my original FOS post on DD and considering that this post is in response to Teproc's legitimizing the joth lynch, this seems even more forced.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Teproc's reads for analysis:

Just reread the thread, so let's do reads.

yuma : Town. Not an IC, but his claim does make him more likely to be town. Mostly he's just been acting very much like town!yuma,
active and constructive.

Axxle : Town. Short posts but actually useful, using his vote aggressively which is good in big games like this, seems like town!Axxle to me. Also he feels different from Adventure Time (scum) and Philosopher's (SK).

Delirious Deleuze : Town. Hasn't posted that much, but has had an open thought process which is hard to replicate as scum, and when he posts he is constructive.

faust: Slight town. He was making sense and being active at the start of the game, which made him one of my early town reads... and then he kinda disappeared, so I'm a little conflicted. Still leaning town though, I guess this is a big game and it's easy to get behind.

AndrewisFTTW : Slight town. I disagree with pretty much every single word he's written in this thread, but he's been contributing and our little fight at the start actually gave me a townread on him.

Archetype: Slight town. He has said very little and needs to step it up, but his two posts sounded townie to me. This is a very weak town read because of the sheer lack of content, but a town read nonetheless.

Robz : Null. I'm pretty annoyed because it seems clear to me that Robz only signed up for this game to keep his streak running...

WW : Slight scum. Very active, which can be hard to do as scum but I'm not remembering a lot of what he's actually done this game. And then there the QT "slip" or whatever which doesnt mean anything in and of itself, but his defense invoking self-meta was fairly scummy.

A Drowned Kernel: Slight scum. I'm used to getting a strong town read on ADK when he is town, and I'm not getting it here. His insistence on the WW QT "slip" also seems like scum!ADK decided to use it to get a mislynch through and he's disappointed to apparently be he only one believing it.

mail-mi : Slight scum. Ok, I know mail-mi is always sheepy, but he takes it to another level in this game. His two votes (on WW then Axxle) are sheeping (first me, then yuma) and his reads post basically has any one who has ever had two votes in this game as a scum read.

jotheonah : On reread, still my preferred lynch. More active that I would expect him to be without having that much actual content, and obviously he overreacted to his wagon which I think is a scum trait. I think I unvoted a while ago, so vote: jotheonah.

TL ; DR => I don't care Robz, I still expect you to read it ! Basically my lynch pool is {jotheonah, mail-mi, ADK, WW, Robz}, with a strong preference for joth.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Mafia didn't use their janitor on yuma, that makes me think he wasn't a mafia kill but rather an sk. Sk makes most sense simce town already has a killing role anyway (desperado).

I like mailmi as a partner for Teproc because of how Teproc approached the day 1 wagons.

vote: Mail mi

Is he the last one in his frat?

How do we know mafia has the janitor ability?

And maybe both mafia and the Sk targeted Yuma?

Could it be another mafia faction? This would really throw a wrench in the equation. I want to say no, given the number of players and the lack of kill d1, but I don't know. It'd make more sense a SK wouldn't kill night one and hide instead so people don't know they're there. Hmm

Let me reread d1 and the interactions between ADK and mail-mi and wither weaver, though idk about analyzing night kills very much.

Three thoughts on this: 

One, why did you suddenly decide to read the interactions between ADK, Mail-Mi, and myself, in response to Axxle thinking Mail-Mi was likely Teproc's partner?  This indicates that you're looking into whether Axxle is correct or not about Mail-Mi, but you're also tossing me in there after previously stating a fairly strong town read.  This strikes me as a little constructed: he's town, okay let me reread him (but in response to comments about someone else and not about me), and then, oh hey he's scum.

Secondly, you made a point of stating how you don't like analyzing night kills, twice in fact.  For one, why don't you like analyzing night kills?  As far as I know, you've only played two games, and both of those you weren't alive for the second day.  So what makes you think analyzing night kills isn't fruitful?  And also, saying you don't like doing this and then going ahead and doing seems like one of those hedgey statements.

Thirdly, you've pointed out twice that there can be two separate mafia/scum teams.  As if you really want us to be thinking about this:

Could it be another mafia faction? This would really throw a wrench in the equation. I want to say no, given the number of players and the lack of kill d1, but I don't know. It'd make more sense a SK wouldn't kill night one and hide instead so people don't know they're there. Hmm

and previously:

So two kills, we have another scum faction, a nightvig, or a SK.

Particularly in the latter one, "scum faction" and "SK" are listed separately.  And it's stated as a question the second time, as if you just thought of the possibility, but you brought it up previously.

1. I reread because someone voted for you and someone voted for mail-mi. Seeing as these were the two scum candidates starting in the day, I figured I should reread. Seeing as teproc was the other scum, thought I'd see how you guys interacted with him.

2. I think that it's pretty arbitrary to analyze night kills. Scum can predict how people react and I just don't think it's solid enough to use. I say this because I thought it was the general consensus not to analyze NKs.

3. Yeah, because this is a tribute game and multiple mafias could exist. Seeing as no one said anything when I first brought it up, I brought it up again.

WW - town, definitely. I don't see why people have suspicion on him. I have found his posts helpful for town, and leading to good content to discuss. Entering day 3 I don't see much suspicion.

Vote: WW

He is definitely scum. I implore y'all to go reread his interactions with Teproc. Teproc leads a wagon on him and then switches it without a lot of analysis of Witherweaver and never brings the focus back on him after switching the wagon. It seems like a great way to push the "he was lynched and I lead the charge, I'm town Lololol." Card.

This is super weird, not sure what to make of it. I think scum hopping a wagon is more likely than town making a whole turnaround.

Yeah, because I reread. I did provide analysis behind my vote.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, someone voted for me and someone voted for Mail-Mi.  But in response to someone voting for me, you said I was very towny.  In response to someone voting for Mail-Mi, you said you'd reread me.  It just kind of seems like a setup to justify future changing of minds.

Anyway, do you think there are two different "mafia teams" here?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Yes, someone voted for me and someone voted for Mail-Mi.  But in response to someone voting for me, you said I was very towny.  In response to someone voting for Mail-Mi, you said you'd reread me.  It just kind of seems like a setup to justify future changing of minds.

Anyway, do you think there are two different "mafia teams" here?

Yeah, I changed my mind because I reread because I wanted to be informed....?

And no, I think it's a SK and a mafia team, but I wanted to entertain the possibility. I think the lack of 2 kills night one show that there either role blocking (which no one has claimed) or more likely a SK and a scum team, with a SK wanting to hide. I just wanted to question what if.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, someone voted for me and someone voted for Mail-Mi.  But in response to someone voting for me, you said I was very towny.  In response to someone voting for Mail-Mi, you said you'd reread me.  It just kind of seems like a setup to justify future changing of minds.

Anyway, do you think there are two different "mafia teams" here?

Yeah, I changed my mind because I reread because I wanted to be informed....?

And no, I think it's a SK and a mafia team, but I wanted to entertain the possibility. I think the lack of 2 kills night one show that there either role blocking (which no one has claimed) or more likely a SK and a scum team, with a SK wanting to hide. I just wanted to question what if.

Hm.. is SK hiding a thing?  From what I've gathered from other games, mafia tends to worry about SK, SK tends to worry about balance (which usually makes them want to hunt mafia), and town tends to worry about mafia first and SK later.  I'm not sure if choosing not to shoot is in the best interest of an SK.  Anyone know of precedents? 

There could have been two shots night 1, where either both were against Yuma or the other target was doctored. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

SK hiding is most definitely not a thing. There are a number of reasons why there was no second kill N1 but what's important now is rereadng and scumhunting/SK hunting.

[Delirious Deleuze]

SK hiding is most definitely not a thing. There are a number of reasons why there was no second kill N1 but what's important now is rereadng and scumhunting/SK hunting.

I've been rereading and scum hunting, but after rereading the forum in regard to teproc being scum here are my new reads (re-iterating what I said above.)

If we conclude there's a 3 person mafia team and a SK, then my reads are:

Town (6) - From towniest to least:

EFHW/Chairs/me

Andrew - He's been pretty constructive and I haven't got a scum read on any of his posts.

Axxle - Town but weird

Archetype - I'm getting a town vibe, but I have the least strong read here.


Scum/SK (3) - From least scummy to most:

mail-mi - Lurky and pretty absent - I don't think his interactions with ADK were super telling. I think he's more scummy than the rest because of his absence.

Faust - scum. He's definitely acting like he's been scum. He says he'll focus more on this game in a bit, but I'm still feeling scummy. His first response to me

WW - town, definitely. I don't see why people have suspicion on him. I have found his posts helpful for town, and leading to good content to discuss. Entering day 3 I don't see much suspicion.

Vote: WW

He is definitely scum. I implore y'all to go reread his interactions with Teproc. Teproc leads a wagon on him and then switches it without a lot of analysis of Witherweaver and never brings the focus back on him after switching the wagon. It seems like a great way to push the "he was lynched and I lead the charge, I'm town Lololol." Card.

This is super weird, not sure what to make of it. I think scum hopping a wagon is more likely than town making a whole turnaround.

This post gives me the OMGYS vibe, a bit. Nonetheless, he's still huge on my scum read.

WW - After rereading all his posts, especially those where teproc is mentioned, I am sure he's scum. His interactions and reads vis-a-vis teproc seem super constructed and phoney. They were keeping enough distance between each other to not draw a relationship, always having slight scum or full scum reads on each other before shifting. Now that i've called WW out his responses seem more townie, but throughout the beginning of the game, he definitely feels scummy to me.

[Witherweaver]

SK hiding is most definitely not a thing. There are a number of reasons why there was no second kill N1 but what's important now is rereadng and scumhunting/SK hunting.

Vote: Mail-Mi

Agreed that we need to be hunting.  I think Mail-Mi is still the scummiest.  I still think he was the best target from his play Day 1, and at the end of day 1 Teproc is strongly trying to push for a Joth lynch while mainting a "Mail-Mi could be scum":

To be clear : I do think mail-mi has a good chance to be scum, almost as much as joth.

But the fact that he got the prize (I knew it because we're in the same frat, along with Robz and yuma), was what made me reluctant. If people want t switch back to joth because of that I'm willing of course.

Teproc had switched from Joth to Mail-Mi when it didn't look like a Joth lynch was going to go through, but Teproc knew that Mail-Mi had the prize.  He also knew that Mail-Mi would likely claim this and cause people to back off.  Teproc can then feel a little safer about putting Mail-Mi at L-1.  If you look at Teproc's posts before the one I linked (going back about a page), I get the impression that he knew how it was going to play out.

The other additional point against Mail-Mi is this: Mail-Mi initially jumped on a vote against me when ADK brought up his original case, which depended on something I said in the QT.  We weren't allowed to quote the QT.  This was early day 1.  Mail-Mi then got an object which let him spy on another QT.  However, he did not choose mine, and instead chose the other house.  If he really thought there was something to the original case (which if he voted as town he should have), I think it would have made the most sense to go and read and decide for himself if it really was scummy.  This seems like it would have been a very natural use of the prize for someone that is town.  He could have chosen the other QT because he has a partner in mine, so he already has some inside knowledge on what's going on there.

PPE: DeDe.  Can you point out where I had a "slight scum read on Teproc before shifting"?  I don't think this is the case.  I had a null read until my full reread right before the deadline, where I found reason to believe that Teproc could be scum.  I don't know what interactions and reads regarding Teproc you think are phony, either.  I think your facts here are just wrong.   

[mail-mi]

Also Robz, if you're reading this, I think the best course of action for you is do not win the challenge. mail-mi will get to decide on his own what to do with the prize, and that's no good.

Hey!

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.2:

WW (2):  Andrew, DD
mail-mi (2):  Axxle, WW

Not Voting (5):  EFHW, chairs, Archetype, mail-mi, faust

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[Archetype]

Ok. I reread the thread.

Reads
Andrew - Has the same easy-going ness sort of vibe I got from jotheonah early game. Not super strong read, but there are much better choices for lynches.

DD - Leaning town. He tried really hard for the prize, and so did Teproc. On one hand, he could be scum for trying to maximize the chance that they would get it. On the other hand, why would scum contest against his partner? Hmm but they did give it to Yuma. Maybe they just wanted it out of the game? I'll still stand by my townread.


Axxle - Leaning scum. He had that weird obsession with Yuma shooting immediatly. But that's, like, too bold as scum. But it's Axxle, so I wouldn't be surprised if he'd do that.

Witherweaver - Tough call. I think Town. He didn't try for the prize either. ICs, what do you think Teproc's possible partners were doing in the other houses while he fought for the prize? That'll help shed some light on this

ADK - Same thing as WW, but slightly Townier.

Mail-mi: Leaning scum. This isn't too bad of a choice either. There's that D-1 case on him which I thought was quite good, and Teproc wavered on it a little. General lurkiness too.

Faust: town. Though if it weren't for that one post, I'd probably be slight scum on him. But I usually find him scummy anyway.

I'll Vote: mail-mi.

[Archetype]

Upon further reading, I'm getting a big townread on ADK. There was one post that really screamed "ADK is Town". I'll see if I can find it.

[Archetype]

A Drowned Kernel, the Vanilla Monster, has been killed!

Found it.

[Axxle]

Love it.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, well.. I don't see Arch constructing that "slip", so I'd say he isn't responsible for ADK.  Not sure what that says about his likelihood of being involved with Robz.  I would think that if he performed any night kill he'd pay pretty close attention to the resolution message.  So I'd say town, except that him knowing Robz was killed means he at least saw it.

[Witherweaver]

In regards to the prize, I did try to solve the puzzle, but I was still on vacation and couldn't put a lot of time into it.  ADK tried to help solve it as well, and he was town.  I think DeDe genuinely wanted to figure it out for curiosity/solving a puzzle/just winning the challenge sake, not so much for the prize.  I know I wasn't really thinking about the prize, I just wanted to see if we could figure it out.

Also, according to Robz, Yuma tried for the prize as well.  I don't think it's an indication here.

[faust]

Scum/SK (3) - From least scummy to most:

Just want to point out, this is not a good way of thinking about stuff. What you're looking for to find a SK is very different than what you're looking for to find a mafia member. So putting these two in the same category is not good. Now I'd be perfectly fine if you just left SK reads out, because it's not sure we have one, but don't just throw them in with your other scum reads.

[faust]

Okay, well.. I don't see Arch constructing that "slip", so I'd say he isn't responsible for ADK.  Not sure what that says about his likelihood of being involved with Robz.  I would think that if he performed any night kill he'd pay pretty close attention to the resolution message.  So I'd say town, except that him knowing Robz was killed means he at least saw it.

I agree. I think we can take from this that Arch isn't part of the ADK kill. But I think in regard to how likely he is part of the other team (killing Robz), I think a bit more. Mafia wouldn't look so hard at the flips, they already know who probably died. In the end, this adds up to a zero change of my read on Arch, which is slight town.

[faust]

Considering wagons, I don't like the WW wagon much because of the people that are on it, and because it seems a "convenient" lynch. I don't like a mail-mi lynch because that's just too easy, and such an easy mislynch, even though I trust the players voting for him more. So I'll start my own wagon.

Vote: DeDe

His turnaround is really strange and weakly explained. Just rereading never got me from turning a "definite" townread into a "definite" scumread.

[faust]

Slight suspicion of those who joined the Teproc wagon yesterday, btw. I think scum would want to be on it, for the cred. That's DeDe, mail-mi, Axxle, me.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.3:

WW (2):  Andrew, DD
mail-mi (3):  Axxle, WW, Archetype
DD (1):  faust

Not Voting (3):  EFHW, chairs, mail-mi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[faust]

Just FYI, my match against AI is scheduled for thursday afternoon, please don't hammer before that.

[Witherweaver]

Considering wagons, I don't like the WW wagon much because of the people that are on it, and because it seems a "convenient" lynch. I don't like a mail-mi lynch because that's just too easy, and such an easy mislynch, even though I trust the players voting for him more. So I'll start my own wagon.

Vote: DeDe

His turnaround is really strange and weakly explained. Just rereading never got me from turning a "definite" townread into a "definite" scumread.

Does this (using "mislynch") imply that you think Mail-Mi is town?

[Witherweaver]

Vote Count 3.3:

WW (2):  Andrew, DD
mail-mi (3):  Axxle, WW, mail-mi
DD (1):  faust

Not Voting (4):  EFHW, chairs, Archetype, mail-mi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

The third person voting for Mail-Mi is Archetype, not Mail-Mi.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm so conflicted right now. I get what faust is saying about mail-mi often being a mislynch and I guess the case on WW isn't so strong. I'll point everyone back to my case on DD and

vote: DD

[AndrewisFTTW]

And here's Teproc's read on DD. I don't see how what DD has been saying is hard to replicate as scum and his posts just seem so forced anyway. I don't buy this read.

Delirious Deleuze : Town. Hasn't posted that much, but has had an open thought process which is hard to replicate as scum, and when he posts he is constructive.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.4:

WW (1):  DD
mail-mi (3):  Axxle, WW, Archetype
DD (2):  faust, Andrew

Not Voting (3):  EFHW, chairs, mail-mi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[mail-mi]

just reread DD. vote: dd

[Axxle]

I'll point everyone back to my case on DD

Can you actually point at it? I did a quick search and can't find it.

just reread DD. vote: dd

Of course you did.

[mail-mi]

I'll point everyone back to my case on DD

Can you actually point at it? I did a quick search and can't find it.

just reread DD. vote: dd

Of course you did.

yup. only has 26 posts (yeah yeah pot calling the kettle black) and his read on Teproc (original) was super town, as was his read on Joth the post before he voted for him.

[Axxle]

yup. only has 26 posts (yeah yeah pot calling the kettle black) and his read on Teproc (original) was super town, as was his read on Joth the post before he voted for him.

He never had a townread on joth, he just didn't like the wagon.

Yes he called Teproc town, but not *super* town *and* he called a ton of people town in that post.

Is that your case?

[mail-mi]

yup. only has 26 posts (yeah yeah pot calling the kettle black) and his read on Teproc (original) was super town, as was his read on Joth the post before he voted for him.

He never had a townread on joth, he just didn't like the wagon.

which usually implies that you have a town read on someone

Yes he called Teproc town, but not *super* town *and* he called a ton of people town in that post.

well okay sorry i didn't get the exact wording.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.5:

WW (1):  DD
mail-mi (3):  Axxle, WW, Archetype
DD (3):  faust, Andrew, mail-mi

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

yup. only has 26 posts (yeah yeah pot calling the kettle black) and his read on Teproc (original) was super town, as was his read on Joth the post before he voted for him.

He never had a townread on joth, he just didn't like the wagon.

which usually implies that you have a town read on someone

Yes he called Teproc town, but not *super* town *and* he called a ton of people town in that post.

well okay sorry i didn't get the exact wording.

a) Not really, cases can be really bad even if they're on your scumreads, and especially nullreads. It makes you reevaluate.
b) You're using hyperbole in both cases, saying he calls him more town than he actually does and failing to mention context. Same for joth.


I'm becoming more confident you're scum. You're not trying to find scum motivation in what DD is trying to do.

[mail-mi]

Just a thought for much later: if one of the rush chairs is scum, I think the best strategy would be to surround himself with town, right? So if any of the rush chairs flip scum at some point, that's something to consider.

As far as my DD reread went, there wasn't much there. There was this:

I was the rush chair for OK.

Now that I know that the gift went to a specific person, I still think it would be beneficial to have the houses claim who got it and what it does, if they know. Chances are that someone in their house is scum, and we should assume so because we don't know how PRs were assigned. Scum would already know who has the prize, it would only be more info for town.

I don't understand why we would possibly want to out the person that got the prize. Does anybody else see this as a strange thought? DD's reads have all been town with the exception of joth, who was a town a read until DD saw Teproc's case on him. Thus he switched his vote as mentioned above in the other really weird post that stood out to me.

So again, not much to go on mostly because of the lack of posts but the content is weird. Also wouldn't it make sense to have one scum be a rush chair? I think so.

vote: DD

I mean, I get your vote. I haven't posted a lot, and it was all town reads, but seeing as the game is just starting out I haven't gotten a strong read from anyone yet.

Why it would be good to out who got the prizes: Because scum would most likely already know this. At the very best it gives town more information, it's basically a claim that someone couldn't fake too. The doctor, if there is one, could protect this person if the prize is good. There's no real downside here.

As far as scum for a rush chair, I think he means Ash would do it not randomly, but I just don't think he would. This is all speculation though, so I'm not really going to entertain it much.

also, the whole "i get your vote" thing is a classic newbie scum tell.

yup. only has 26 posts (yeah yeah pot calling the kettle black) and his read on Teproc (original) was super town, as was his read on Joth the post before he voted for him.

He never had a townread on joth, he just didn't like the wagon.

which usually implies that you have a town read on someone

Yes he called Teproc town, but not *super* town *and* he called a ton of people town in that post.

well okay sorry i didn't get the exact wording.

a) Not really, cases can be really bad even if they're on your scumreads, and especially nullreads. It makes you reevaluate.
b) You're using hyperbole in both cases, saying he calls him more town than he actually does and failing to mention context. Same for joth.


I'm becoming more confident you're scum. You're not trying to find scum motivation in what DD is trying to do.

a) if he had a scum read on him, why would he comment that the case was bad? and okay yeah the null reads thing.
b) okay, but from his post it seems like he does have a strong town read on teproc.

[Axxle]

a) if he had a scum read on him, why would he comment that the case was bad? and okay yeah the null reads thing.
b) okay, but from his post it seems like he does have a strong town read on teproc.

"I think you're scum because you used the letter 'e' more often than any person ITT." <--- Bad case regardless of your alignment. DD was making a comment on the wagon rather than Joth himself.

also, the whole "i get your vote" thing is a classic newbie scum tell.

Now *this* gives me something to think about.

[mail-mi]

"I think you're scum because you used the letter 'e' more often than any person ITT."

okay but most cases have at least some merit.

[EFHW]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

Also, something I idly thought and didn't pay attention to earlier but should have - Teproc didn't protest when mail-mi was about to be lynched holding the prize.  That should have been a clue that he was mafia.  I need to check who else in that house was on at the time that mail-mi was in danger of being lynched.

[EFHW]

The other two people, yuma and Robz, have been confirmed as town.

[Axxle]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

I disagree. Teproc knew mail-mi would claim he had the item, knew people would panic, and knew he could back off immediately.

[EFHW]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

I disagree. Teproc knew mail-mi would claim he had the item, knew people would panic, and knew he could back off immediately.

Why take the risk of putting a partner to L-1 on Day 1?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

I disagree. Teproc knew mail-mi would claim he had the item, knew people would panic, and knew he could back off immediately.

Why take the risk of putting a partner to L-1 on Day 1?

I don't think putting a partner to L-1 is out of the realm of possibility. It could've been done intentionally so we could look back and come to the conclusion that you just came to.

Axxle, you asked for my case on DD. I'll pull that up in my next post.

[Archetype]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

I disagree. Teproc knew mail-mi would claim he had the item, knew people would panic, and knew he could back off immediately.

Why take the risk of putting a partner to L-1 on Day 1?

So that it creates the confusion that we're in right now.

PPE: Andrew making the same point

[Axxle]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

I disagree. Teproc knew mail-mi would claim he had the item, knew people would panic, and knew he could back off immediately.

Why take the risk of putting a partner to L-1 on Day 1?

Mailmi would have been the lynch if Teproc had just done nothing. We had 15 minutes left.

[EFHW]

I thought it would be interesting to look at each person's reactions to Robz's report that Teproc was scum.  I won't say my thoughts yet.

DD:    Hmmmm I guess vote: teproc.
   If somebody did bus or redirect him they should say so. 
   Otherwise, I think things are pretty easy from here. I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't bus there own person, and if teproc turns up town, then Robz is scummy.   

Axxle: Why did you guys try to win an anti-town item? Our group just didn't try so we wouldn't accidentally give it to scum.
   @Robz: Why did you target Teproc?
   Did yuma give any indication in your QT that he was using his PR?
   @Python Nu Kappa: Do we want to claim that particular something that we know? I feel like it could be a bit incriminating.
   And I'm not going to say something more just because scum asks, kthx.
   Intent to vote Teproc
   Vote: Teproc
   
WW:   Vote: Teproc. I can't imagine Robz not telling the truth here.  Plus Teproc's "don't assume Robz is scum when I flip town" strikes me as very disingenuous.
   
mail-mi:   Well well well. I guess there's nothing to say but Vote: teproc
   
Archetype:   Hey can people, like, stop voting.
   If he gets to L-1, he can self-hammer and end the day early.
   
Andrew:   Oh hey! So Teproc is scum? I noticed his posts were overly aggressive D1. I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1.
   Yeah I've been getting vibes from mail-mi. And not the good kind. Funny how Teproc and I haven't agreed on anything and you [ADK] and I have agreed on (mostly) everything.
   
faust:   I realized I hadn't posted here yet. Well, not much to say. We should follow Robz here for sure. I have no reason to think Teproc is town.
   I agree with Axxle [no point in waiting]. Vote: Teproc

[EFHW]

I'm going over voting records.  So far I've noticed that Teproc put mail-mi to L-1 on Day 1, when there was a going wagon on joth as well.  I think this makes mail-mi seem pretty towny.

I disagree. Teproc knew mail-mi would claim he had the item, knew people would panic, and knew he could back off immediately.

Why take the risk of putting a partner to L-1 on Day 1?

Mail-mi would have been the lynch if Teproc had just done nothing. We had 15 minutes left.

If mail-mi was scum, Teproc could have pushed the joth lynch, and slowed down and even stopped the mail-mi one by bringing the item up himself.  He wouldn't have gotten on mail-mi's wagon b/c then they 1. lose the item (though they may not need it) and 2. risk losing a mafia.  It looks to me like Teproc didn't care which of the two was lynched b/c they were both town.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok I just looked back and yeah my original case was based on a lot of town reads and what seemed like forced posts to me (this was before that reads list that you linked to). Specifically, there was this:

I'm definitely getting a town vibe from wither weaver. The case against him is pretty flimsy and he's been pretty active in trying to help town out.

I'm not sure what to make of his reaction to the wagon on him. I don't think I would qualify him as "active", but I don't know, it feels like he is just acting as if he's not really concerned by it. I'm not sure what this means, because he's not outright ignoring it (which I would find scummy), but he's not having a classic townie reaction to it either.

I also don't think the case against Joth is solid at all. The case seems forced. He said one thing that he thought about and everyone jumped on him. Granted voting for himself was lame, I don't think the wagon on him made any sense.

I don't think there's much to the initial case against joth, but his reaction to it is so over the top considering the small amount of pressure he initially got. He was saying something like "oh I'm the main lynch candidate now" while at 2 vote, when WW had 4. Scum often feels like the pressure on them is bigger than it actually is, because they know the people voting for them are right. I also get a very fake feeling from his outrage and subsequent self vote. Pretty happy with where my vote is.

This is actually really well stated. I didn't realize he freaked after only two votes were on him. You're right, it is weird and anti-town to react this way.

I think it's enough for me to vote: joth

I saw/see this as new scum trying to find some reason to jump on the joth wagon. It just sounds empty and forced to me. Here are Teproc's and DD's reads on eachother:

Teproc- Town, he's consistently posting good content, analyzing posts and trying to find scum. Very similar to other games he's been town in.

Delirious Deleuze : Town. Hasn't posted that much, but has had an open thought process which is hard to replicate as scum, and when he posts he is constructive.

These also seem really empty to me. And what other games is DD referring to? This is DD's second game and Teproc was the mod in the first one.

[Axxle]

unvote

I don't think Teproc would have done something so blatant as push Joth, but I think he very well could have mentioned the item. Enough for me to rethink things.

PPE: maybe...

[Witherweaver]

I thought Teproc was pushing Joth, but he couldn't get the votes, so he switched to Mail-Mi.  If scum!Mail-Mi gets lynched, then Teproc doesn't want to appear as if he'd avoid voting Mail-Mi.  Teproc also knows that Mail-Mi can claim the prize to deflect his own wagon, so the risk of L-1 isn't so great. 

[faust]

I thought it would be interesting to look at each person's reactions to Robz's report that Teproc was scum.  I won't say my thoughts yet.

DD:    Hmmmm I guess vote: teproc.
   If somebody did bus or redirect him they should say so.
   Otherwise, I think things are pretty easy from here. I'm pretty sure scum wouldn't bus there own person, and if teproc turns up town, then Robz is scummy.   

Axxle: Why did you guys try to win an anti-town item? Our group just didn't try so we wouldn't accidentally give it to scum.
   @Robz: Why did you target Teproc?
   Did yuma give any indication in your QT that he was using his PR?
   @Python Nu Kappa: Do we want to claim that particular something that we know? I feel like it could be a bit incriminating.
   And I'm not going to say something more just because scum asks, kthx.
   Intent to vote Teproc
   Vote: Teproc
   
WW:   Vote: Teproc. I can't imagine Robz not telling the truth here.  Plus Teproc's "don't assume Robz is scum when I flip town" strikes me as very disingenuous.
   
mail-mi:   Well well well. I guess there's nothing to say but Vote: teproc
   
Archetype:   Hey can people, like, stop voting.
   If he gets to L-1, he can self-hammer and end the day early.
   
Andrew:   Oh hey! So Teproc is scum? I noticed his posts were overly aggressive D1. I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1.
   Yeah I've been getting vibes from mail-mi. And not the good kind. Funny how Teproc and I haven't agreed on anything and you [ADK] and I have agreed on (mostly) everything.
   
faust:   I realized I hadn't posted here yet. Well, not much to say. We should follow Robz here for sure. I have no reason to think Teproc is town.
   I agree with Axxle [no point in waiting]. Vote: Teproc

Of those reactions, I lean strong town on Archetype's, slight town on Axxle's, and slight scum on DeDe's and Andrew's.

[faust]

Considering wagons, I don't like the WW wagon much because of the people that are on it, and because it seems a "convenient" lynch. I don't like a mail-mi lynch because that's just too easy, and such an easy mislynch, even though I trust the players voting for him more. So I'll start my own wagon.

Vote: DeDe

His turnaround is really strange and weakly explained. Just rereading never got me from turning a "definite" townread into a "definite" scumread.

Does this (using "mislynch") imply that you think Mail-Mi is town?

No, I'm null on mail-mi. Just think that it's an easy wagon to push, and if scum wants to create a wagon, they might resort to mail-mi.

[faust]

That said, mail-mi's exchange with Axxle leaves me with a townier feeling on mail-mi.

[chairs]

Sorry about the V/LA guys, I'll catch up ASAP but can't do so at work.

[EFHW]

Considering wagons, I don't like the WW wagon much because of the people that are on it, and because it seems a "convenient" lynch. I don't like a mail-mi lynch because that's just too easy, and such an easy mislynch, even though I trust the players voting for him more. So I'll start my own wagon.

Vote: DeDe

His turnaround is really strange and weakly explained. Just rereading never got me from turning a "definite" townread into a "definite" scumread.

Does this (using "mislynch") imply that you think Mail-Mi is town?

No, I'm null on mail-mi. Just think that it's an easy wagon to push, and if scum wants to create a wagon, they might resort to mail-mi.

I agree that mail-mi would be chosen as a mislynch target b/c of how he plays, and this leads me to look at Axxle and Andrew and WW, who are the ones on his wagon and who have all posted arguing against mail-mi since I said I saw him as town.  They are my lynch pool for today. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

Considering wagons, I don't like the WW wagon much because of the people that are on it, and because it seems a "convenient" lynch. I don't like a mail-mi lynch because that's just too easy, and such an easy mislynch, even though I trust the players voting for him more. So I'll start my own wagon.

Vote: DeDe

His turnaround is really strange and weakly explained. Just rereading never got me from turning a "definite" townread into a "definite" scumread.

Does this (using "mislynch") imply that you think Mail-Mi is town?

No, I'm null on mail-mi. Just think that it's an easy wagon to push, and if scum wants to create a wagon, they might resort to mail-mi.

I agree that mail-mi would be chosen as a mislynch target b/c of how he plays, and this leads me to look at Axxle and Andrew and WW, who are the ones on his wagon and who have all posted arguing against mail-mi since I said I saw him as town.  They are my lynch pool for today.

Actually I'm not on mail-mi's wagon and neither is Axxle anymore. But anyway you guys can say mail-mi has been mislynched a lot but that doesn't mean anything to me this game. I'm looking at how he's acting THIS game for my read on him and to me, it's suspicious. And I'm sure we've all been mislynched more than once so I don't see how that argument has any sway.

But I'd much rather lynch DD today. What do you guys think of him?

[EFHW]

sorry, I misread my notes.

[EFHW]

I wouldn't normally vote this early as IC, but I think we will definitely need time to make the right decision, and I think mail-mi is a mislynch, and maybe DD as well. 

Vote: Andrew.  I feel his was the scummiest response to Robz's revelation, and he has received almost no scrutiny.

We need town to be active Today, even if that's not your normal inclination!

[Witherweaver]

I don't think I get a scum feeling from Andrew at all.  If anything I'm slight town.  Do you see things other than his response to Robz?

Question to Andrew/other people voting DeDe: Why do you think he's been after Faust so much?  I believe he tried to make an argument before today, and the only other person to seriously suspect Faust that I can remember was Yuma in twilight of Day 1.

[AndrewisFTTW]

You mean DD? I didn't realize he was suspecting Faust, maybe because DD is just lurking so much. I'll reread again but lurking is another strike for DD. The way it looks to me is new scum not really sure what to post, but when he does post it's empty and lacking.

[Witherweaver]

You mean DD? I didn't realize he was suspecting Faust, maybe because DD is just lurking so much. I'll reread again but lurking is another strike for DD. The way it looks to me is new scum not really sure what to post, but when he does post it's empty and lacking.

Hm, he opened today with voting Faust, and I'm sure he brought it up before.  I'll try to find it.

[Witherweaver]

Ah, it was his first big read post back on Day 1: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10846.msg376670#msg376670

[EFHW]

WW can you give yourself a Goko username?  That would make it much easier to search for just your posts.

[Witherweaver]

WW can you give yourself a Goko username?  That would make it much easier to search for just your posts.

Done.

[Axxle]

You mean DD? I didn't realize he was suspecting Faust, maybe because DD is just lurking so much. I'll reread again but lurking is another strike for DD. The way it looks to me is new scum not really sure what to post, but when he does post it's empty and lacking.

I really doubt scum would copy their partner like this:

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

Sigh...

Day Vigilante.

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

.......

I also don't think that he would unvote joth, while still strongly saying he'd revote, while also not being around to make sure the mislynch happens at the end of the day. I don't see any scum motivation there.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Alright so everybody disagrees with me. I can respect that.

unvote

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hey guys sorry I'm gone. Will try to post something responding to everybody tonight. It's my anniversary with my girlfriend so we'll gone until Friday, but I'll try to do something substantial tonight.

Quick thoughts,

I don't know really what to say about the wagon on me. the arguments are all subjective and saying my post seem forced. I disagree, but that's moot. I'll post more in my defense later, but right now that's what I can say quickly.

As for votes on Andrew: I don't think he's scum at all. He's been constructive, trying to lead new thoughts and arguments and is set in his opinions. He thinks I'm scum, that's whatever, I'm not, but he's definitely being a good town. I don't think I'll vote on him today. I definitely feel he's town.

I still think Faust is scum, the lurking and empty posts are bad too, but I don't think I'd win a wagon here. He's my number one choice for a lunch.

WW: I still think he's scum, but less so than Faust. His posts after I call him out read townie to me, but I think the evidence for the beginning of the game is, I think, large. He'd be my second choice.

Mail-mi - still leaning scum, but possibly SK. He's playing weird, has been lurky, and hasn't made much of a contribution (which is a bit hypocritical for me today, but still.)

I'll have more thoughts tonight. I need to go do errands

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.6:

WW (1):  DD
mail-mi (2):  WW, Archetype
DD (2):  faust, mail-mi
Andrew (1):  EFHW

Not Voting (3):  chairs, Axxle, Andrew

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

@Axxle.  I still don't understand the reasoning behind choosing not to try for the lynchproof.  You had no control over the other houses, so you could assume that one of them would get the prize and then they would have control over it instead of you.  If you could have coordinated with all the houses not to try for it, it could make sense.  But just one house deciding not to seems counterproductive.

[Axxle]

@Axxle.  I still don't understand the reasoning behind choosing not to try for the lynchproof.  You had no control over the other houses, so you could assume that one of them would get the prize and then they would have control over it instead of you.  If you could have coordinated with all the houses not to try for it, it could make sense.  But just one house deciding not to seems counterproductive.

If no one wins the prize it's pro town. If I win the prize, that means someone has won the prize rather than no one. It's a tautology. I don't understand how our group deciding not to go for it is counterproductive.

[Axxle]

Scum seems squarely in mailmi/faust/Ww/Archetype to me.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I don't have the time I thought I would tonight, but I promised to add more, so here:

I think Faust is scum. I've explained before, but his nature in this game is just like when he stayed in the back in HoC and he was scum. I've watched him in other games. Sure, I've only been in three games with him, but he stinks of scum in his post. He's absent, not super constructive, and just hiding in the background it feels. Just like when he's been scum before. I'd be most happy to lynch him, but I don't think that's going to happen, which is why I'm staying on WW.

Of whom, I think the interaction with Teproc is important. They both have "slight scum" reads on each other, which allows them to pivot and say, "Nope! I said they're scummy!?! I can't be scum." Teproc's help on the wagon on WW and then abandoning it is also pressing for me. It seems like something scum partners would construct to make themselves seem more townie after one of the others got lynched or killed. I'd be okay with this lynch, and I think it could happen, and so my vote stays here.

For mail-mi, I think he's scummish. His behavior makes him an easy lynch target and people have jumped on it, but then again, there are reasons his behavior is an easy lynch target: because he's actually scum. Then again, I'm not sure here. Perhaps his post and general lurkiness are because he's not scum, but the SK, and that's why scum was okay with pushing a mail-mi lynch in D1 (thus he's not scum), but he is still acting odd and lurky and absent because he's a SK. Just a thought, I'm not saying he is this. I just think it's a possibility and wanted to map my thoughts. Anyone in my frat who watched me during the google game knows I think like this haha. I'd be okay with a mail-mi lynch, but only as my third choice and with caution.

On my wagon: I don't really get it. It relies on my posts being "forced" and the town read I had on teproc. The first is super subjective, and not thoroughly aggreed on (see WW's defense having been in 3 games with him now.) The read on teproc was wrong. I'm sorry. I don't think smart scum would put such clear reads on there partners. That seems silly for scum to do.

We still have five days, so let's not rush into lynching somebody. We want to make more paths of questioning to analyze in the important D4.

Which makes me ask, what do people think of:

1. Axxle? I think clearly very town, but that's me. If someone even has suspicions, ask questions so we have more to analyze.

2. Arch? He's been really lurky and I don't have much to analyze on him. His absent makes me suspicious... I don't have much of a read on his earlier posts at that. I'm really null. I'd love people to add so we can analyze.

Now, I'm going to go drink champagne with the GF and then we're celebrating our anniversary tomorrow all day and I'll be gone. I'll probably be back Friday evening at some point (Hopefully, I have a friends birthday that night too.)
Have fun!
FIND SCUM!

[Delirious Deleuze]

Oh one last thought, ADK's push for a mail-mi lynch would defend the idea he's the SK, possible. Someone brought this up earlier this day. Just forgot to add that to my mail-mi section.

[EFHW]

@Axxle.  I still don't understand the reasoning behind choosing not to try for the lynchproof.  You had no control over the other houses, so you could assume that one of them would get the prize and then they would have control over it instead of you.  If you could have coordinated with all the houses not to try for it, it could make sense.  But just one house deciding not to seems counterproductive.

If no one wins the prize it's pro town. If I win the prize, that means someone has won the prize rather than no one. It's a tautology. I don't understand how our group deciding not to go for it is counterproductive.

Because you couldn't guarantee that no one would win the prize, only that your house wouldn't.  Also, if you are town, your having the prize would be pro-town and preferable to no one having the prize.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I actually like DD's post here. I have no idea what scum!faust is like but he was buddying with Teproc D1 and has avoided suspicion all game. Arch has been the same way.

[EFHW]

both mail-mi and Archetype are unreadable - one b/c he is always scummy, the other because he rarely posts.  I have some reason to think mail-mi is town, as I said before.  I wouldn't oppose an Archetype lynch based on what we have seen so far.

I agree that Andrew seems very towny for most of the game.  It is his two posts after Robz's report that seem scummy to me.  For reference:

"Andrew:   [Post 1]  Oh hey! So Teproc is scum? I noticed his posts were overly aggressive D1. I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1.
       [Post 2]  Yeah I've been getting vibes from mail-mi. And not the good kind. Funny how Teproc and I haven't agreed on anything and you [ADK] and I have agreed on (mostly) everything."

The "Teproc is scum?" sounds artificial.  He refers to his earlier suspicion, and says he and Teproc disagreed throughout the game, which was Teproc's line earlier and therefore sounds like a distancing strategy.  He talks about "vibes" re: mail-mi with no specifics, and he seems to be buddying with ADK.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Honestly I just thought it was funny that ADK and I have agreed a lot and Teproc and I have disagreed a lot. After I hit the post button I realized it's a weird sounding post that could be misinterpreted but that's how it goes. As for my reaction to Robz's result, I never know how to respond to things like that and every response can be interpreted in different ways. If I said "I knew it" we'd still be discussing the same thing. If I said "oh I had no idea" we'd be discussing the same thing. If I said nothing we'd be discussing how I said nothing. I just read over everyone's responses and they were all pretty null to me.

[EFHW]

Also, he says "I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1."  "need to catch up" and  "probably" can be scumtells, and he never does vote for Teproc.

So basically, every single element of these two posts feels scummy to me, and while any one element alone would be a null tell, the accumulation is why I am voting him.

PPE: Andrew

[Witherweaver]

Honestly I just thought it was funny that ADK and I have agreed a lot and Teproc and I have disagreed a lot. After I hit the post button I realized it's a weird sounding post that could be misinterpreted but that's how it goes. As for my reaction to Robz's result, I never know how to respond to things like that and every response can be interpreted in different ways. If I said "I knew it" we'd still be discussing the same thing. If I said "oh I had no idea" we'd be discussing the same thing. If I said nothing we'd be discussing how I said nothing. I just read over everyone's responses and they were all pretty null to me.

So you're saying you deliberated a long time over what to say to Robz scum result on Teproc?  That's basically saying "Oh hey!" is not your honest response, but rather constructed to convey a particular feeling of yours. 

[Witherweaver]

Oh one last thought, ADK's push for a mail-mi lynch would defend the idea he's the SK, possible. Someone brought this up earlier this day. Just forgot to add that to my mail-mi section.

I don't follow this.  ADK implied that Mail-Mi was Teproc's partner.  How does this suggest that Mail-Mi is an SK?

And, why "the SK"?  Previously you were considering all the explanations of the cause of two night kills.  Now you're certain it's an SK?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Honestly I just thought it was funny that ADK and I have agreed a lot and Teproc and I have disagreed a lot. After I hit the post button I realized it's a weird sounding post that could be misinterpreted but that's how it goes. As for my reaction to Robz's result, I never know how to respond to things like that and every response can be interpreted in different ways. If I said "I knew it" we'd still be discussing the same thing. If I said "oh I had no idea" we'd be discussing the same thing. If I said nothing we'd be discussing how I said nothing. I just read over everyone's responses and they were all pretty null to me.

So you're saying you deliberated a long time over what to say to Robz scum result on Teproc?  That's basically saying "Oh hey!" is not your honest response, but rather constructed to convey a particular feeling of yours.

Nowhere did I say I deliberated a long time. All I said was it didn't matter what my response was and so I just picked a slightly humorous one because I'm a humorous person. I could point to any single one of the responses to Robz's result and say it was scummy and this is why, but I'm not going to do because I don't think they're tells.

[Axxle]

Also, if you are town, your having the prize would be pro-town and preferable to no one having the prize.

Wrong.

[Axxle]

Vote: Archetype L-1

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Archetype L-1

Eh?

[Axxle]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

[Witherweaver]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm back to vote: WW

His play here reminds me of his play in WoT (when he was scum). I still think there's a good chance of him being the SK.

[Axxle]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

I was hoping he'd react to it if he wasn't paying attention (which is more likely town). You've utterly derailed that option though.

[Axxle]

Reminder: Vla through Monday

[Witherweaver]

I'm back to vote: WW

His play here reminds me of his play in WoT (when he was scum). I still think there's a good chance of him being the SK.

How?

[Witherweaver]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

I was hoping he'd react to it if he wasn't paying attention (which is more likely town). You've utterly derailed that option though.

Sorry, I didn't think to consider something like that.

[EFHW]

Also, if you are town, your having the prize would be pro-town and preferable to no one having the prize.

Wrong.

I don't see your point, and since you aren't explaining, maybe you are making a big show of not going for the prize in order to seem towny.

[Axxle]

Also, if you are town, your having the prize would be pro-town and preferable to no one having the prize.

Wrong.

I don't see your point, and since you aren't explaining, maybe you are making a big show of not going for the prize in order to seem towny.

Remember mailmi in philosophers mafia? He was town and one shot unlynchable and it was negative town utility. It's *always* negative town utility. It would have been better if he was a VT.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm back to vote: WW

His play here reminds me of his play in WoT (when he was scum). I still think there's a good chance of him being the SK.

How?

Constant prodding and questioning on inconsequential topics and not taking a stance on anything. Missing Axxle's attempt to get a reaction from Arch is just ridiculous and looks like you're posting without thinking things through so you can seem active. This is consistent with the setup comment in your QT.

[Witherweaver]

I'm back to vote: WW

His play here reminds me of his play in WoT (when he was scum). I still think there's a good chance of him being the SK.

How?

Constant prodding and questioning on inconsequential topics and not taking a stance on anything. Missing Axxle's attempt to get a reaction from Arch is just ridiculous and looks like you're posting without thinking things through so you can seem active. This is consistent with the setup comment in your QT.

What's inconsequential?  And I have taken a stance.  I think Mail-Mi is the most likely scum, so I put my vote there.  There is a lot of other stuff going on, so I'm reading and asking questions about it. 

And there's no way I would have thought of Axxle's ruse.  That's just... not something I would think of. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

Whether or not I deliberated before making a post is inconsequential.  Whether or not DD thinks there's one SK or two or five is inconsequential. Questioning Axxle's ridiculously obvious reaction vote is inconsequential. It looks like you want to make it seem like you're scumhunting but you're not. This is what you did in WoT.

[Witherweaver]

Whether or not I deliberated before making a post is inconsequential.  Whether or not DD thinks there's one SK or two or five is inconsequential. Questioning Axxle's ridiculously obvious reaction vote is inconsequential. It looks like you want to make it seem like you're scumhunting but you're not. This is what you did in WoT.

I strongly disagree.  Deliberating over how you want to react to information is what scum has to do.  Consider the situation in which you were Teproc's partner.  You would know already that Teproc was scum before Robz' result.  Thus you have to decide how to play your reaction.  EFHW made the point that your response of "Oh hey! So Teproc is scum?" sounds artificial.  I saw your post as confirming that, and coming up with an explanation for why it was.

You admitted to picking a response, which means it wasn't just your reaction.  You had to at some point think "hm, what should I say to this?".  Now whether you'd admit this as scum or not is WIFOM and unclear, but that you were going through that kind of a thought process is quite important.

The DeDe thing is relevant too, and I'm surprised you don't see anything there, since you had quite a bit of suspicion on him.

So two kills, we have another scum faction, a nightvig, or a SK.

And maybe both mafia and the Sk targeted Yuma?

Could it be another mafia faction? This would really throw a wrench in the equation. I want to say no, given the number of players and the lack of kill d1, but I don't know. It'd make more sense a SK wouldn't kill night one and hide instead so people don't know they're there. Hmm

This was the beginning of the day, where he's considering all possible sources of two kills.  A second scum faction, a nightvig, and an SK.  The "the" article in the second quote is in response to Axxle referring to a hypothetical SK. 

Witherweaver is scum. Still don't know the serial killer though.

Now he knows there's an SK.

Here:

Yes, someone voted for me and someone voted for Mail-Mi.  But in response to someone voting for me, you said I was very towny.  In response to someone voting for Mail-Mi, you said you'd reread me.  It just kind of seems like a setup to justify future changing of minds.

Anyway, do you think there are two different "mafia teams" here?

Yeah, I changed my mind because I reread because I wanted to be informed....?

And no, I think it's a SK and a mafia team, but I wanted to entertain the possibility. I think the lack of 2 kills night one show that there either role blocking (which no one has claimed) or more likely a SK and a scum team, with a SK wanting to hide. I just wanted to question what if.

he says he thinks the single team and SK is more likely, but we point out that the "SK hiding" idea is faulty.

And later:

Oh one last thought, ADK's push for a mail-mi lynch would defend the idea he's the SK, possible. Someone brought this up earlier this day. Just forgot to add that to my mail-mi section.

So it's weird that he makes a point, twice, about entertaining all possible choices for two night kills, and then from then on operates under the assumption that there's an SK.  Surely you see this?  Plus, SK hunting is one of those classic scum tells.  I'm also uncomfortable on how he lumps "scum/SK" together into his possible reads. (E.g., this one)

I wanted to see DeDe's response before saying more on it, which is why I only asked a question before instead of making a big post.

[Archetype]

Woah why am I at L-1???

[Archetype]

I'm still leaning towards a mail-mi lynch. I'll vote DD if its needed, but out of the two of them mail-mi is expressing much more classic scummy behavior (which is normal for him...but as both Town and Scum) and DD is much more active.

I agree with DD about Andrew and am confused about EFHW's read on him. I also disagree with DD about Faust. Faust being in the background are what I usually see from Faust. I think he could be a SK, but not Teproc's scum partner.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

[Witherweaver]

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

Man, scum has to think a lot more, and you know this.  You saying its not worth looking at at all is silly.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

Man, scum has to think a lot more, and you know this.  You saying its not worth looking at at all is silly.

It's not worth looking at because you can't say I think about my posts more than anybody else, including yourself, unless you're looking over my shoulder to see me typing on my phone.

I can't believe I'm even entertaining this discussion. This is exactly what I was talking about. All of your posts are either dissecting something that's WIFOM or something that can't be proven or measured. Or you'll post general information that everyone knows but you make them out to look like you've thought it through and thus come to your specific conclusion. Take this for example:

I strongly disagree.  Deliberating over how you want to react to information is what scum has to do.  Consider the situation in which you were Teproc's partner.  You would know already that Teproc was scum before Robz' result.  Thus you have to decide how to play your reaction.

There are a lot of words here but you're not actually saying anything. This is not scumhunting. This is deceptively saying things that are obvious to fill out your posts.

[Witherweaver]

You can not possibly be maintaining that whether or not your reaction to Robz' investigation of Teproc's alignment sounds forced is irrelevant.

[AndrewisFTTW]

What's irrelevant is the deliberation before posting. Whether or not my post sounds forced (which I haven't mentioned at all so I don't know how you could accuse me of considering it irrelevant) is up to you.

[Witherweaver]

What's irrelevant is the deliberation before posting. Whether or not my post sounds forced (which I haven't mentioned at all so I don't know how you could accuse me of considering it irrelevant) is up to you.

... Is this a real conversation?  Are those not the same thing?

[AndrewisFTTW]

What's irrelevant is the deliberation before posting. Whether or not my post sounds forced (which I haven't mentioned at all so I don't know how you could accuse me of considering it irrelevant) is up to you.

... Is this a real conversation?  Are those not the same thing?

Nope.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.7:

WW (2):  DD, Andrew
mail-mi (2):  WW, Archetype
DD (2):  faust, mail-mi
Andrew (1):  EFHW
Archetype (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

Can we talk about something else now?

[ashersky]

Just a reminder to Scare Game contestants: if you haven't completed your matches against AI before Day 3 ends, you'll receive no score and would automatically lose to anyone who did complete their matches.

[Axxle]

Faust!!!

[faust]

Faust!!!
[/quote

I had my match earlier today, no worries.

[faust]

Quote fail...

[Witherweaver]

Also, he says "I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1."  "need to catch up" and  "probably" can be scumtells, and he never does vote for Teproc.

So basically, every single element of these two posts feels scummy to me, and while any one element alone would be a null tell, the accumulation is why I am voting him.

PPE: Andrew

To this point, we explicitly told Andrew not to vote for Teproc, because we didn't want Teproc at L-1.

[Archetype]

Also, he says "I need to catch up but after that I'll probably put Teproc at L-1."  "need to catch up" and  "probably" can be scumtells, and he never does vote for Teproc.

So basically, every single element of these two posts feels scummy to me, and while any one element alone would be a null tell, the accumulation is why I am voting him.

PPE: Andrew

To this point, we explicitly told Andrew not to vote for Teproc, because we didn't want Teproc at L-1.

This is actually a really, really good point. Axxle was pushing it too.

[mail-mi]

I'm going to be going to spain at the beginning of june, and availability will be severely low... I don't know if it's okay for me to /out at this point... but if not I'll post when i can.

[Axxle]

vote: ww l-2

A reread of teproc's ISO really makes me think andrew and dd aren't scum.

I think he'd put a partner on his scum reads list too, mailmi and ww.

I'm thinking one of those + archetype is most likely.

[Axxle]

Oh yeah, he defended Faust pretty hard, pretty much the only person he defended.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I addressed that early on and it was ignored.

It's a joke, nothing more than a joke. Teproc already explained that, why do you keep acting as though it was serious?

Maybe it is a joke and maybe it isn't, that's not important. But I do think it's a weird post which is worth something. Why are you and Teproc tag teaming?

[Axxle]

Two days left

[EFHW]

So is no one as impressed as I am with the scumminess of Andrew's two posts?  His response has not made me see him as at all towny, either.  Saying "every response can be interpreted in different ways" is avoiding the fact that I found multiple aspects of his posts scummy, and that was not true of my read of the other players' responses.  Saying he found the other responses null is not relevant.  I just don't find his response reassuring, nor his reaction to challenges from Witherweaver.

Honestly I just thought it was funny that ADK and I have agreed a lot and Teproc and I have disagreed a lot. After I hit the post button I realized it's a weird sounding post that could be misinterpreted but that's how it goes. As for my reaction to Robz's result, I never know how to respond to things like that and every response can be interpreted in different ways. If I said "I knew it" we'd still be discussing the same thing. If I said "oh I had no idea" we'd be discussing the same thing. If I said nothing we'd be discussing how I said nothing. I just read over everyone's responses and they were all pretty null to me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Saying "every response can be interpreted in different ways" is avoiding the fact that I found multiple aspects of his posts scummy, and that was not true of my read of the other players' responses.

I didn't avoid anything. I explained why I said what I did and I'm sorry if you thought it was scummy but I don't think there's anything I can do to convince you beyond that.

[Witherweaver]

So is no one as impressed as I am with the scumminess of Andrew's two posts?  His response has not made me see him as at all towny, either.  Saying "every response can be interpreted in different ways" is avoiding the fact that I found multiple aspects of his posts scummy, and that was not true of my read of the other players' responses.  Saying he found the other responses null is not relevant.  I just don't find his response reassuring, nor his reaction to challenges from Witherweaver.

Honestly I just thought it was funny that ADK and I have agreed a lot and Teproc and I have disagreed a lot. After I hit the post button I realized it's a weird sounding post that could be misinterpreted but that's how it goes. As for my reaction to Robz's result, I never know how to respond to things like that and every response can be interpreted in different ways. If I said "I knew it" we'd still be discussing the same thing. If I said "oh I had no idea" we'd be discussing the same thing. If I said nothing we'd be discussing how I said nothing. I just read over everyone's responses and they were all pretty null to me.

The thing is, I believe town Andrew could have constructed his original response, with just about equal likelihood.  And I would think that, as scum, his defense would not be to admit that he was thinking to how others would react to his reaction to Robz, but rather something more along the lines of "artificial" being subjective and him just typing what he was thinking. 

I don't find his responses to me reassuring, either, but they are consistent with how he's played town before.  I think him getting immediately argumentative is a null tell for alignment. 

I guess the biggest thing is that this is the only thing so far that's really merited scrutiny.

[EFHW]

So is no one as impressed as I am with the scumminess of Andrew's two posts?  His response has not made me see him as at all towny, either.  Saying "every response can be interpreted in different ways" is avoiding the fact that I found multiple aspects of his posts scummy, and that was not true of my read of the other players' responses.  Saying he found the other responses null is not relevant.  I just don't find his response reassuring, nor his reaction to challenges from Witherweaver.

Honestly I just thought it was funny that ADK and I have agreed a lot and Teproc and I have disagreed a lot. After I hit the post button I realized it's a weird sounding post that could be misinterpreted but that's how it goes. As for my reaction to Robz's result, I never know how to respond to things like that and every response can be interpreted in different ways. If I said "I knew it" we'd still be discussing the same thing. If I said "oh I had no idea" we'd be discussing the same thing. If I said nothing we'd be discussing how I said nothing. I just read over everyone's responses and they were all pretty null to me.

The thing is, I believe town Andrew could have constructed his original response, with just about equal likelihood.  And I would think that, as scum, his defense would not be to admit that he was thinking to how others would react to his reaction to Robz, but rather something more along the lines of "artificial" being subjective and him just typing what he was thinking. 

I don't find his responses to me reassuring, either, but they are consistent with how he's played town before.  I think him getting immediately argumentative is a null tell for alignment. 

I guess the biggest thing is that this is the only thing so far that's really merited scrutiny.

You are right that this is the only thing so far, and I don't know him well at all.  Since there isn't the support and I'm v/la and we are heading towards deadline, I'll unvote and take it up again another day (if I live). 

[EFHW]

I'll be sure to come back to put a vote down tomorrow.  Can't say I feel great about the current wagons (mail-mi, DD, WW). 

[AndrewisFTTW]

So we need two more for a WW lynch. Faust, chairs, mail-mi, if you're around what do you guys think? If you're not around we're probably not getting a lynch through at all...

[AndrewisFTTW]

And Arch, I forgot you were in this game.

[Archetype]

I support mail-mi's lynch, but wouldn't really mind WW.

[Archetype]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

[Witherweaver]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

I think Axxle is town..  My preference would be Mail-Mi.  I would also vote for DeDe.  I don't see anything compelling for Axxle, Andrew, Faust, or you.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

I think Axxle is town..  My preference would be Mail-Mi.  I would also vote for DeDe.  I don't see anything compelling for Axxle, Andrew, Faust, or you.

What about WW?

[Witherweaver]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

I think Axxle is town..  My preference would be Mail-Mi.  I would also vote for DeDe.  I don't see anything compelling for Axxle, Andrew, Faust, or you.

What about WW?

I don't believe I will be voting for that guy.  I rather like him.

[Witherweaver]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

I think Axxle is town..  My preference would be Mail-Mi.  I would also vote for DeDe.  I don't see anything compelling for Axxle, Andrew, Faust, or you.

I'm beginning to think DeDe more than Mail-Mi.  His case against me just doesn't make sense, and seems extremely forced.  He's accusing me of things that I didn't do at all.  It looks a lot like first-time scum trying to look like they're scumhunting and pushing a mislynch through.

The issue is, DeDe doesn't make as much sense as Teproc's partner as Mail-Mi does.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

I think Axxle is town..  My preference would be Mail-Mi.  I would also vote for DeDe.  I don't see anything compelling for Axxle, Andrew, Faust, or you.

What about WW?

I don't believe I will be voting for that guy.  I rather like him.

You're at L-2, why are you joking and not defending yourself?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Axxtually, what about an Axxle lynch? His scumread on me seemed to have come out of no where.

I think Axxle is town..  My preference would be Mail-Mi.  I would also vote for DeDe.  I don't see anything compelling for Axxle, Andrew, Faust, or you.

I'm beginning to think DeDe more than Mail-Mi.  His case against me just doesn't make sense, and seems extremely forced.  He's accusing me of things that I didn't do at all.  It looks a lot like first-time scum trying to look like they're scumhunting and pushing a mislynch through.

The issue is, DeDe doesn't make as much sense as Teproc's partner as Mail-Mi does.

I said that DD's posts seemed forced and seemed like he was first time scum and you disagreed. Now you take pretty much exactly what I said and use it against DD? yuma voted for you early on for repeating the same thing he said. I let it go that time but you did it again here. Here's yuma's original point:

There is nothing wrong with it per se. But as I just said above it is something I have seen mafia do. I have stated again and again, correctly mind you, that posting as mafia is hard. You have to check every single thing you say for correctness because one slip can cost you the game. As a result mafia often 1. posts less and 2. repeats what others say rather than coming up with something original. It is often seen with voting (sheeping) but it is done even more often with just content.

Now could WW have had the exact same thought as me? Yes. Probable even, but that doesn't indicate alignment. But he added nothing new to the conversation. No original thought that might somehow slip something if he is mafia. This might indicate alignment... hence the vote.

It's also important to note that after yuma voted WW, WW voted yuma in what was supposed to look like an RVS vote but it totally wasn't:

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

You clearly used your PR of precognition to see that I was going to post what I did, and you posted it first.  And as we all know Precog is a Mafia-only PR.  Vote: Yuma

I also said you're trying to look like you're scumhunting by posting a lot of general information that doesn't add anything, which you use in your post about DD. More copying.

And to top it all off, right here:

The issue is, DeDe doesn't make as much sense as Teproc's partner as Mail-Mi does.

you second guess yourself about DD. This is what I meant when I said you wouldn't commit to anything.

[Witherweaver]

Dude, seriously, what are you talking about?

DeDe did not sound forced to me in the post you quoted day 1.  His flip flop on me does  seem forced.  I could not say this day 1 because it had not happened.

My vote on Yuma was 100% an RVS vote.  How could you possibly think it wasn't?

I'm "second guessing" myself about DeDe because I don't know anything for sure.  His behavior today is very questionable.    Combined with Day 1 (I.e., posting a lot more about setup issues than other things), I can believe he's scum.  However, I don't see anything to connect him to Teproc.  That's the main thing keeping me on Mail-Mi.

[Witherweaver]

Also, why do you want to hit SK today instead of Mafia.  You say I'm likely SK and you still want to lynch me.  Since you're so gungho about what a terrible god damn scum hunter I am, who do *you* think Teproc's team is?

[AndrewisFTTW]

You're likely to be SK based on ADK's death but you're also likely to be scum based on my observations of your posting behavior.

[AndrewisFTTW]

And I never said you're not good at scumhunting, I was assessing the possibility of you being scum, in which case you would only have to pretend to be scumhunting.

[Witherweaver]

And I never said you're not good at scumhunting, I was assessing the possibility of you being scum, in which case you would only have to pretend to be scumhunting.

But I'm not pretending.  So you saying I'm only looking like I am is saying I'm not doing it right.

[mail-mi]

I prefer my vote on DD but I can switch to WW if needed.

[Witherweaver]

You're likely to be SK based on ADK's death but you're also likely to be scum based on my observations of your posting behavior.

That doesn't really answer the question. If I'm likely to be SK, what is Teproc's team?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Your vote on yuma was not RVS for the simple fact that he voted you first. So your vote was a retaliation of sorts. As far as second guessing yourself is concerned, that's fine, I second guessed myself on DD. But when you make a case on someone and then offer a defence for that person in the same post, it seems very non-committal which is a good position for scum to be in.

And I never said you're not good at scumhunting, I was assessing the possibility of you being scum, in which case you would only have to pretend to be scumhunting.

But I'm not pretending.  So you saying I'm only looking like I am is saying I'm not doing it right.

But I don't know that for sure. A lot of this is opinion. In my opinion, your scumhunting looks a little like you're pretending. I may be wrong so please don't take this to mean I think your scumhunting sucks just because I think you're posts are a little odd.

You're likely to be SK based on ADK's death but you're also likely to be scum based on my observations of your posting behavior.

That doesn't really answer the question. If I'm likely to be SK, what is Teproc's team?

Why is this an important question to ask/answer right now? raerae asked me this same type of question in Adventure Time and she turned out to be scum.

[Witherweaver]

Yuma's vote against me looked like an RVS vote.  I made the same type of vote with a joke.  You don't OMGUS retaliate like that with a real vote.. Doing so is an RVS thing.  Why would I think Yuma's vote on me was real in the first place?

To second point, you explicitly said that the things I pointed out were inconsequential.  I argued they are.  It may *seem* like I'm faking to you, but I'm not, and you saying so is insulting.

To the third point, because I found the "could be the SK" thing a little questionable.  It seems weird at this point, right after Teproc flips scum to look for an SK and not a partner. Moreover, the setup is closed so hearing what people think about it may be enlightening.  Why don't you want to answer?

To the other point, Saying DD doesn't look like Teproc's partner is not defending him.  He could still be scum and be a different faction (SK, second mafia, whatever else).  So these are the things I'm considering that makes me unsure.

[Witherweaver]

XMen starting soon (the movie), so I'm away.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yuma's vote against me looked like an RVS vote.  I made the same type of vote with a joke.  You don't OMGUS retaliate like that with a real vote.. Doing so is an RVS thing.  Why would I think Yuma's vote on me was real in the first place?

Because he gave a reason for it:

are you voting him for re-saying the exact thing you just finished saying?

I voted him for re-saying the exact thing I just finished saying!

To second point, you explicitly said that the things I pointed out were inconsequential.  I argued they are.  It may *seem* like I'm faking to you, but I'm not, and you saying so is insulting.

I'm sorry you feel insulted but it's part of the game to analyze posts and read between the lines. That's all I'm trying to do.

To the third point, because I found the "could be the SK" thing a little questionable.  It seems weird at this point, right after Teproc flips scum to look for an SK and not a partner. Moreover, the setup is closed so hearing what people think about it may be enlightening.  Why don't you want to answer?

You could be the SK. You could be scum. You could even be town. But to me, your posts are scummy and as long as you're not town when we lynch you I'm happy.

I don't want to answer because it's a question that doesn't need to be asked or answered at this point in the game. What do you hope to gain from my answer?

To the other point, Saying DD doesn't look like Teproc's partner is not defending him.  He could still be scum and be a different faction (SK, second mafia, whatever else).  So these are the things I'm considering that makes me unsure.

Your post is essentially saying you think DD has a better chance of being scum than mail-mi does, but DD doesn't look like scum. Maybe defending isn't the right word but this is definitely contradictory.

[Witherweaver]

Me thinking that Yuma's vote was a jokey RVS vote, and my response to him in kind, is simply the truth.  He had to explain to me himself that it was a serious vote.  I obviously did not understand it at the time.  You can read this if you scroll down to the rest of the page.  I don't understand the point of this. 

Analyzing and reading between lines is not what you are doing.  What you are doing is tunneling and trying to come up with different scum narratives for everything I've said.  But you haven't justified at all why you think my posts are scummy.  First you say I'm the SK because ADK was killed tonight, and by your own admission that wasn't a strong case.  Then you say that I'm prodding and questioning on inconsequential topics. I explain that I am not.  You provide no counter of substance.  You say I'm not committing to anything; I have.  You say I'm second guessing myself; of course I am, there is nothing scummy about that. 

Then you bring up the Yuma thing, to show that I've been called out for repeating what other people say.  But it isn't relevant here, because what you were talking about with DeDe day 1 and what I'm talking about here are entirely different subjects.  I'm saying DD looks like first-time scum because he's trying hard to construct an artificial case.  This is exactly what I did in WoT.  I'm in no way repeating what you've said, because you have not made these points.  Now you're trying to argue with me about the nature of my RVS vote in my, like, third post of the game.

And now you're just saying my "posts are scummy". 

So, I have to question your motivations.  What I hope to gain from your answer is to figure out what you're thinking. 

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

[Witherweaver]

I'm sorry you feel insulted but it's part of the game to analyze posts and read between the lines. That's all I'm trying to do.

You should really go back and reread what you've said.  You immediately jump on me for asking a question of you---an issue which the IC brought up and *IS* relevant---and continue to make instigative posts to me.  I don't know if this is part of your game (like, say, Ash), but if it's not, then you should think more about civility.

[AndrewisFTTW]

You can contradict me all day but it doesn't make your opinions any more valid than mine. I've stated my case but I'm not going to sit here and say "yes you did" just because you said "no I didn't".

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

I am thoroughly confused by this but whatever.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm sorry you feel insulted but it's part of the game to analyze posts and read between the lines. That's all I'm trying to do.

You should really go back and reread what you've said.  You immediately jump on me for asking a question of you---an issue which the IC brought up and *IS* relevant---and continue to make instigative posts to me.  I don't know if this is part of your game (like, say, Ash), but if it's not, then you should think more about civility.

Which post are you referring to? I seriously didn't mean to insult you.

[Axxle]

unvote

vote: archetype

I want to lynch the lurker today I think. And I didn't like his last post, it smelled of omgus.

I'm much less satisfied with my townread on Andrew after this spat. He's calling ww an sk while simultaneously being dense about ww's read on dd.

[Witherweaver]

I'm sorry you feel insulted but it's part of the game to analyze posts and read between the lines. That's all I'm trying to do.

You should really go back and reread what you've said.  You immediately jump on me for asking a question of you---an issue which the IC brought up and *IS* relevant---and continue to make instigative posts to me.  I don't know if this is part of your game (like, say, Ash), but if it's not, then you should think more about civility.

Which post are you referring to? I seriously didn't mean to insult you.

Nearly every one:

I'm back to vote: WW

His play here reminds me of his play in WoT (when he was scum). I still think there's a good chance of him being the SK.

How?

Constant prodding and questioning on inconsequential topics and not taking a stance on anything. Missing Axxle's attempt to get a reaction from Arch is just ridiculous and looks like you're posting without thinking things through so you can seem active. This is consistent with the setup comment in your QT.

I miss something really obvious (it wasn't), and that's ridiculous.

Whether or not I deliberated before making a post is inconsequential.  Whether or not DD thinks there's one SK or two or five is inconsequential. Questioning Axxle's ridiculously obvious reaction vote is inconsequential. It looks like you want to make it seem like you're scumhunting but you're not. This is what you did in WoT.

Everything I'm saying is inconsequential.  "ridiculously obvious" again.

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

This is uncouth and uncalled for.

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

Man, scum has to think a lot more, and you know this.  You saying its not worth looking at at all is silly.

It's not worth looking at because you can't say I think about my posts more than anybody else, including yourself, unless you're looking over my shoulder to see me typing on my phone.

I can't believe I'm even entertaining this discussion. This is exactly what I was talking about. All of your posts are either dissecting something that's WIFOM or something that can't be proven or measured. Or you'll post general information that everyone knows but you make them out to look like you've thought it through and thus come to your specific conclusion. Take this for example:

I strongly disagree.  Deliberating over how you want to react to information is what scum has to do.  Consider the situation in which you were Teproc's partner.  You would know already that Teproc was scum before Robz' result.  Thus you have to decide how to play your reaction.

There are a lot of words here but you're not actually saying anything. This is not scumhunting. This is deceptively saying things that are obvious to fill out your posts.

I.e., the discussion is beneath you.  Everything I'm saying is empty in meaningless.  It's also particularly frustrating to be called out for explain something that is "obvious", when the purpose of me explaining was you claiming that what I was saying didn't mean anything in the first place.  So then when I explain why it's relevant, my posts are empty and hot air.

Ok WW. So town doesn't think about what they're going to post before they post it and scum does. Awesome. Thanks.

Can we talk about something else now?

This in particular.

[Witherweaver]

You can contradict me all day but it doesn't make your opinions any more valid than mine. I've stated my case but I'm not going to sit here and say "yes you did" just because you said "no I didn't".

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

I am thoroughly confused by this but whatever.

There are scum in this game that are not on the same team as Teproc.  Almost surely.  Unless you think there is a dayvig and a nightvig?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm not calling WW a SK. All I said was WW's posts seem odd to me and that could be coming from scum or a SK. At the beginning of the day I said since ADK was dead and was suspecting WW at the end of D2, that could be a SK killing someone who suspected him. I don't know how it got completely blown out of proportion.

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

Do you mean you don't see a possible scum partner interaction between DD and Teproc but DD by himself looks scummy?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok.

[Axxle]

I'm not calling WW a SK. All I said was WW's posts seem odd to me and that could be coming from scum or a SK. At the beginning of the day I said since ADK was dead and was suspecting WW at the end of D2, that could be a SK killing someone who suspected him. I don't know how it got completely blown out of proportion.

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

Do you mean you don't see a possible scum partner interaction between DD and Teproc but DD by himself looks scummy?

That's what those word say. How other way did you interpret it?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm not calling WW a SK. All I said was WW's posts seem odd to me and that could be coming from scum or a SK. At the beginning of the day I said since ADK was dead and was suspecting WW at the end of D2, that could be a SK killing someone who suspected him. I don't know how it got completely blown out of proportion.

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

Do you mean you don't see a possible scum partner interaction between DD and Teproc but DD by himself looks scummy?

That's what those word say. How other way did you interpret it?

Teproc's partner = scum. I never considered the possibility of a second scum faction or the possibility that somebody else considered a second scum faction.

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW I'm sorry if I've been getting an attitude. This has been pretty frustrating for me too. But part of this is due to the fact that I'm typing words out and not speaking to you personally. I can assure you I'm not trying to attack you personally but rather I'm observing what I perceive to be scummy behavior and I'm posting them when I see them. Any sarcastic comments of mine are because I've felt like I've had to repeat myself over and over and I'm still not being understood. Sometimes it feels like I'm speaking another language when I play mafia. Looking back I can see how it would seem like I was posting with ill-intent, especially when you collect all of them into one post. But really I'm just trying to argue my case and since no one else is here, I feel like I have to put extra effort into explaining myself. I don't like when people just stand by and watch things like this happen from the sidelines, but that's part of the game. That's just not how I play the game. I've always made an effort not to lurk at all and sometimes that means I post weirdly or aggressively but it's all in the name of scumhunting. Sorry again and I'll make an effort to word my responses more respectfully.

[Axxle]

I'm not calling WW a SK. All I said was WW's posts seem odd to me and that could be coming from scum or a SK. At the beginning of the day I said since ADK was dead and was suspecting WW at the end of D2, that could be a SK killing someone who suspected him. I don't know how it got completely blown out of proportion.

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

Do you mean you don't see a possible scum partner interaction between DD and Teproc but DD by himself looks scummy?

That's what those word say. How other way did you interpret it?

Teproc's partner = scum. I never considered the possibility of a second scum faction or the possibility that somebody else considered a second scum faction.

SK is considered scum.

[Axxle]

Scum is anything that doesn't win with the town.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not calling WW a SK. All I said was WW's posts seem odd to me and that could be coming from scum or a SK. At the beginning of the day I said since ADK was dead and was suspecting WW at the end of D2, that could be a SK killing someone who suspected him. I don't know how it got completely blown out of proportion.

I did not say DeDe doesn't look like scum.  I said DeDe doesn't look like Teproc's partner.

Do you mean you don't see a possible scum partner interaction between DD and Teproc but DD by himself looks scummy?

That's what those word say. How other way did you interpret it?

Teproc's partner = scum. I never considered the possibility of a second scum faction or the possibility that somebody else considered a second scum faction.

Vote: Andrew

There's no way I buy this.  We've been talking about the sources of the night kills this entire day, and Andrew has said twice today that I look like I could be SK.  DeDe plus others brought up the issue of the different causes of the night kill... I myself went back and forth with DeDe on this issue.  I also made the entire point regarding DeDe's unsureness then assumption of an SK, in response to Andrew questioning my questioning of DeDe.  There's no way Andrew didn't see all this given that DeDe and myself are his prime suspects. 

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.8:

WW (2):  DD, Andrew
mail-mi (1):  Archetype
DD (2):  faust, mail-mi
Andrew (2):  WW, EFHW
Archetype (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[AndrewisFTTW]

SK is considered scum.

Scum is anything that doesn't win with the town.

Oh. Well then that clears some stuff up.

[EFHW]

ashersky - I actually unvoted Andrew.  I'll vote: Andrew now, but WW should be first in the order.

[EFHW]

vote: ww l-2

A reread of teproc's ISO really makes me think andrew and dd aren't scum.

I think he'd put a partner on his scum reads list too, mailmi and ww.

I'm thinking one of those + archetype is most likely.

What is ISO and can you point us to it?

[Axxle]

SK is considered scum.

Scum is anything that doesn't win with the town.

Oh. Well then that clears some stuff up.

k

[Axxle]

vote: ww l-2

A reread of teproc's ISO really makes me think andrew and dd aren't scum.

I think he'd put a partner on his scum reads list too, mailmi and ww.

I'm thinking one of those + archetype is most likely.

What is ISO and can you point us to it?

ISO refers to me looking at Teproc's posts in isolation. (Holdover from mafiascum)
It's easier than rereading everything.

Still vla so can't easily grab the specific posts, if you go back and read where he mentions those two that'd be the posts I mean.

[EFHW]

ok, I'll do that.

[EFHW]

Did that, and I don't see how you got your conclusion.  Is this the post you mean?  Andrew is in his scum reads.

Well I guess I'll reiterate my reads in case I'm lynched during the night (real life night I mean) : I think mail-mi, ADK and WW are the most likely people to be scummy... also yuma dying definitely makes Andrew and faust more scummy, he was pretty adamant about them being scum and people rarely bother to analyze night kills, so scum tends to kill people who have scum reads on them a lot.

ADK and DD are likely town, Robz as well. Arch I have no idea about, he's barely in this game.

[Axxle]

How day 1 reads list. I didn't read into any of his wifom day 2 posts and I suggest everyone else to ignore them too.

[Axxle]

His day 1 reads list. I didn't read into any of his wifom day 2 posts and I suggest everyone else to ignore them too.

[ashersky]

ashersky - I actually unvoted Andrew.  I'll vote: Andrew now, but WW should be first in the order.

Thanks.  Fixed.

[Archetype]

unvote

vote: archetype

I want to lynch the lurker today I think. And I didn't like his last post, it smelled of omgus.

If you want a lurker lynch, why not mail-mi? If there's a reason for your scum read on me other than my lurking, then let me know. That's what I was wondering with my latest post.

[Axxle]

unvote

vote: archetype

I want to lynch the lurker today I think. And I didn't like his last post, it smelled of omgus.

If you want a lurker lynch, why not mail-mi? If there's a reason for your scum read on me other than my lurking, then let me know. That's what I was wondering with my latest post.

You're my only null read, so are Poe scum after my three scum reads

vote: Mail mi

[faust]

So, I don't really like a WW lynch, I think his recent responses look really townie.

mail-mi I don't know about. I guess he's null and lurking and I could lynch him, but there's not really a case behind that, so maybe there are better options.

Axxle and Archetype seem townie, I want to keep them alive.

So that leaves DeDe and Andrew. Both could well be scum. But Andrew gets some points for actually being active and trying to do something here. DeDe is just absent, letting the Andrew/WW thing play out, hoping people forget he's actually a lynch candidate. So I still like my vote.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So WW, at the risk of being made to look like even more of an asshole than I already look like, how come you didn't say anything like this when I was being harassed by ash in WoT? You even referenced ash here when you said you didn't know if this was just my playstyle. I didn't take any of what ash said personally because I knew it was part of the game, but you were scum partners with him and knew what he was up to so why did you let him take it that far? Do you see this as any different?

[faust]

So WW, at the risk of being made to look like even more of an asshole than I already look like, how come you didn't say anything like this when I was being harassed by ash in WoT? You even referenced ash here when you said you didn't know if this was just my playstyle. I didn't take any of what ash said personally because I knew it was part of the game, but you were scum partners with him and knew what he was up to so why did you let him take it that far? Do you see this as any different?

I'm quite certain that nothing useful will come out of following this road any further.

[Witherweaver]

So WW, at the risk of being made to look like even more of an asshole than I already look like, how come you didn't say anything like this when I was being harassed by ash in WoT? You even referenced ash here when you said you didn't know if this was just my playstyle. I didn't take any of what ash said personally because I knew it was part of the game, but you were scum partners with him and knew what he was up to so why did you let him take it that far? Do you see this as any different?

Yeah we can discuss it after the game.  Sorry I was getting frustrated.

[faust]

This day is ending, and apparently there's no support for DeDe, so I'll change to vote: Andrew

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.9:

WW (2):  DD, Andrew
mail-mi (2):  Archetype, Axxle
DD (1):  mail-mi
Andrew (3):  WW, EFHW, Faust

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: DD

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.10:

WW (1):  DD
mail-mi (2):  Archetype, Axxle
DD (2):  mail-mi, Andrew
Andrew (3):  WW, EFHW, Faust

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Just got back from the hotel, sorry for being gone. We didn't win nationals

Any way, WW you were wondering why I went from considering other scum factions to just talking about a SK, mainly because no one entertained my thoughts of another scum faction that's not SK, and since I have only been in three games, barely, I figured I was missing something ro being silly and just went along with the idea of a SK.

On the Andrew wagon, I was against it when I was there and I still am. I actually agree with his analysis on WW. But that's not really a wagon that's going today.

Arch is lurking pretty heavily, and this is  bad. He's had almost no content throughout the entire game and no one seems to be questioning him. This worries me. I still think faust and WW and mail-mi seem scummier, but given his lurking it's hard to tell anything on him.

It's 3 hours until deadline, so I guess we need a lynch. I still don't support a Andrew lynch. I'd much rather have WW, Faust, or mail-mi. I think only mail-mi would be the only viable lynch, so vote: Mail-Mi.

I am concerned by how faust has been lurking drastically, though, which I mean I have been too because I've had stuff in real life, but throughout this entire game he keeps lurking. He just appeared today and tried to jump on either my or andrews wagon, and his only reason was I was absent lately, which given my real life, makes sense. Also, this is calling the kettle black, but whatever.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Intent to put mail-mi to L-1.

[mail-mi]

it's gonna be me vs. andrewis isn't it. dang it.

intent to put andrewis to l-1

[mail-mi]

it's gonna be me vs. andrewis isn't it. dang it.

intent to put andrewis to l-1

Actually, I'm not going to be here for awhile, so vote: andrewis

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: mail-mi

[faust]

Intent to put mail-mi to L-1.

"Intent to put at L-1"? Since when do we do that? This looks like overly cautious scum.

[mail-mi]

And now we wait for chairs. Or for someone to switch.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Intent to put mail-mi to L-1.

"Intent to put at L-1"? Since when do we do that? This looks like overly cautious scum.

I've always been told to post intent...

Guys think about why you're voting me. Is it because you think I'm scum? Or because of the fight witb WW, which was really just scumhunting?

[AndrewisFTTW]

For the record I'd much rather lynch WW or DD but since nobody else agrees, I have to vote for mail-mi.

[Witherweaver]

I'm voting because of the reason I stated before.

[AndrewisFTTW]

SK is considered scum.

Scum is anything that doesn't win with the town.

Oh. Well then that clears some stuff up.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Why would I argue so much about your comment if I knew you were referring to a SK?

[Axxle]

Getting on plane, both of you should claim probably.

[EFHW]

For the record I'd much rather lynch WW or DD but since nobody else agrees, I have to vote for mail-mi.

I don't think this helpful way to proceed.  It is how mislynches are made.

[EFHW]

This day is ending, and apparently there's no support for DeDe, so I'll change to vote: Andrew

Also not helpful.  Do you think he is scum?  If so then why.

[AndrewisFTTW]

For the record I'd much rather lynch WW or DD but since nobody else agrees, I have to vote for mail-mi.

I don't think this helpful way to proceed.  It is how mislynches are made.

The way I see it is if it's not him it's me. I'm a mislynch but I don't know for sure that he is. So I'm putting my vote where scum could possibly be lynched.

[faust]

This day is ending, and apparently there's no support for DeDe, so I'll change to vote: Andrew

Also not helpful.  Do you think he is scum?  If so then why.

Mostly PoE. I have town reads on Axxle, Archetype. I lean town on WW. mail-mi is null, I'd be fine with that lynch as well. I prefer DeDe, but that's not happening.

[ashersky]

Yuma will do thread lock/flip for me, as I'll be on a plane at deadline.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.11:

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

who's here?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Me, not that it matters.

[EFHW]

I don't expect you to switch to your own wagon!

[EFHW]

It looks like either all the mafia are on one wagon, or we have two wagons on town here.

[EFHW]

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

If we had two town wagons, we would have a hammer by now b/c one of the mafia would have switched.

So two mafia on the same wagon: 

If mail-mi is scum, 1 of WW and faust is scum.
If Andrew is scum, 1 of Archetype/Axxle/DD is scum.

[EFHW]

vote: mailmi

[EFHW]

sorry guys, and you should be too.  Why was no one else here?

[EFHW]

where they nk may help us.  They will probably nk from the group without any mafia in it.

[EFHW]

my v/la and chairs' flooded apartment were poorly timed, it seems.  Still, I'm very disappointed in the town players who did not show up tonight.

[yuma]

Thread locked! No one was lynched. Night starts now. Please send all actions to ash.

Adk won the challenge. His frat may vote to determine who gets the prize. Ash will announce details for the next challenge later.

[ashersky]

All QTs are unlocked, in case that wasn't clear.

[ashersky]

Tonight's Scare Game is a series of mini-debates.  Each team should select up to three competitors, one for each round.  The same person may complete more than one round.

This Scare Game will happen on f.ds, in RSP.  Details to follow.

[ashersky]

Round 1 features ROR vs. PNK and OZ vs. the ICs!

I will create threads in RSP with topics in the subject line.  Each competitor may make 1 post either for or against, as listed in the post.

No restrictions, but only one post.

A poll will be opened for all users to decide a winner.

[ashersky]

In the grandest of ironies, the debates upset the regular readers of RSP so much that we were forcibly removed to forum games.

[ashersky]

Sorry I've been a bit unavailable recently; still VLA a bit.

I will try to start the day from the airport if I have time.  Otherwise, it'll be tomorrow morning my time.

[ashersky]

The CDA was there again the next morning, dragging chairs away.  He was an Innocent Child, but unfortunately, contaminated overnight.

One of the agents mentioned in passing that it seemed witherweaver had disappeared, possibly tossed through a door somewhere...

Chairs, the Innocent Mason, has been killed!
Witherweaver, the Human Child Nexus, has been killed!

Day 4 begins now!

Same rules apply for scare games competitors as last game.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.0:

Not Voting (7):  mail-mi, DD, Faust, Andrew, EFHW, Axxle, archetype

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Archetype]

Woah. A Nexus.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Damn, that's a powerful scum player.

Well since we have a full day, vote: Faust.

He's been absent and playing in the background, not making any substantial post and just jumping on wagons. This is just like when he was scum in HoC.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I know most people don't analyze NKs, but why would the other scum faction target WW?

[faust]

Damn, that's a powerful scum player.

Well since we have a full day, vote: Faust.

He's been absent and playing in the background, not making any substantial post and just jumping on wagons. This is just like when he was scum in HoC.

Sorry for my inactivity. I was in a lot of mafia games, and it got a bit too much. Good news is: I'm dead in one, so I hope to have more time for this.

WW flipping mafia does incriminate mail-mi, yes?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Let's get the obligatory "I was right" out of the way real quick:

I was right!

Ok. Now that that's cleared up, why does that incriminate mail-mi?

I'm gonna go back and re-read WW now.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I believe I was right too....


But the hipster of us all was ADK.

But yes, most people should go reread teproc and WWs interactions. It'll show how the scum team is playing together. Then read WW and other players interactions. Their interactions are really damning.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Halfway through my reread I just realized that Archetype is still in this game. Not good.

vote: Archetype

Still rereading...

[AndrewisFTTW]

There's no need to switch. mail-mi is at L-2 and is scummier, in my opinion. If you prefer mail-mi you should commit to it at this point.

Need two people to come to Mail-Mi.  Teproc is 1.  I think Faust and Arch are both not on at this time.. so that leaves EFHW, Chairs, DeDe, Robz.

Townread on mail-mi for this. Teproc on joth, WW on mail-mi.

[AndrewisFTTW]

And then Teproc switches to mail-mi.

[Axxle]

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

I think Faust would have voted mailmi yesterday if he was scum.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hmmm maybe...

Given the two wagons and EFHWs thoughts on them, all scum must have been on mail-mis wagon, otherwise they would have flipped to hammer a town. That means the other wagon is probably the scum, because they/WW didn't hammer them.

Then again I still have a town read on Andrew, so I don't know if that's particularly true...

And yeah, I have no read on arch because he's been so lurky.

[Axxle]

WW dying as a nexus basically confirms a strong man kill and thus scum team, at least I see no other possibility. If that's the case we might not be looking for a Teproc/ww partner.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

I think Faust would have voted mailmi yesterday if he was scum.

I don't follow. I think he voted me because he thought it'd be easier for me to get lynched.

[Axxle]

@mod: would you use this version of nexus? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Nexus_(Role)

[Axxle]

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

I think Faust would have voted mailmi yesterday if he was scum.

I don't follow. I think he voted me because he thought it'd be easier for me to get lynched.

He was on like an hour before the deadline. No one else was around that could have switched to you.

[Axxle]

@mod: would you use this version of nexus? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Nexus_(Role)

Oh wait, I should learn to read. Night kills aren't redirectable

[AndrewisFTTW]

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

I think Faust would have voted mailmi yesterday if he was scum.

I don't follow. I think he voted me because he thought it'd be easier for me to get lynched.

He was on like an hour before the deadline. No one else was around that could have switched to you.

Yeah but why does Faust not hammering mail-mi indicate he's town?

[AndrewisFTTW]

He posted that he could switch to mail-mi after mail-mi was put to L-1. Maybe he just thought he couldn't legitimize a mail-mi lynch like he could mine.

[mail-mi]

Wow. Ww was scum again. We should just lynch him day1 of every game because he's always scum 

I'll need to reread him, but I don't have time right now, so I'll do that later

[EFHW]

Thanks to whoever shot WW!  chairs being contaminated suggests that it was a human child that killed him. 

[EFHW]

Hmmm maybe...

Given the two wagons and EFHWs thoughts on them, all scum must have been on mail-mis wagon, otherwise they would have flipped to hammer a town. That means the other wagon is probably the scum, because they/WW didn't hammer them.

Then again I still have a town read on Andrew, so I don't know if that's particularly true...

And yeah, I have no read on arch because he's been so lurky.

Does a town read out weigh logic?  Ultimately it shouldn't.

So it sounds like there is a second scum team.  An SK would have been fine with either lynch and would have tried to make sure a lynch took place.  It's hard enough to kill everyone off, no lynches are not good for an SK. 

So the fact that scum didn't switch suggests that they were on the wagon that wasn't their faction and the other wagon WAS on their faction.  Andrew couldn't have switched, since he was the only other choice, and he is very likely NOT mafia, given that WW was on his wagon.  He could still be another faction with a partner on mail-mi's wagon.  Or, mail-mi could be another faction with faust as his partner on Andrew's wagon. 

Here are the two wagons again:

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

We should review mail-mi faust interactions, and Andrew's interactions with the others on mail-mi's wagon - Archetype, DD and Axxle.

[EFHW]

WW's not switching does implicate mail-mi as mafia somewhat, though Teproc's willingness to lynch him when he could have stayed with joth tends to exonerate him.  Very confusing!

[EFHW]

We should review mail-mi faust interactions, and Andrew's interactions with the others on mail-mi's wagon - Archetype, DD and Axxle.

Just posting that again since it got lost in the quote in the original.

[EFHW]

In Monsters flavor, is there a group that could be a third faction?  It's been awhile since I saw the movie, but weren't there some corrupt people that were discovered in Monsters Inc?

[mail-mi]

In Monsters flavor, is there a group that could be a third faction?  It's been awhile since I saw the movie, but weren't there some corrupt people that were discovered in Monsters Inc?

Randall could be a third party. So could mr. Waternoose, although he's only in Monsters Inc.

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW's not switching does implicate mail-mi as mafia somewhat, though Teproc's willingness to lynch him when he could have stayed with joth tends to exonerate him.  Very confusing!

Well SK!mail-mi makes sense in that respect.

If you suspect I'm mafia I would point you to my pushing for WW's lynch yesterday.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hmmm maybe...

Given the two wagons and EFHWs thoughts on them, all scum must have been on mail-mis wagon, otherwise they would have flipped to hammer a town. That means the other wagon is probably the scum, because they/WW didn't hammer them.

Then again I still have a town read on Andrew, so I don't know if that's particularly true...

And yeah, I have no read on arch because he's been so lurky.

Does a town read out weigh logic?  Ultimately it shouldn't.

So it sounds like there is a second scum team.  An SK would have been fine with either lynch and would have tried to make sure a lynch took place.  It's hard enough to kill everyone off, no lynches are not good for an SK. 

So the fact that scum didn't switch suggests that they were on the wagon that wasn't their faction and the other wagon WAS on their faction.  Andrew couldn't have switched, since he was the only other choice, and he is very likely NOT mafia, given that WW was on his wagon.  He could still be another faction with a partner on mail-mi's wagon.  Or, mail-mi could be another faction with faust as his partner on Andrew's wagon. 

That's a fair point. Logic is logic. I was just very one way in my read of Andrew it's going to be hard to convince me otherwise, but I'll be open to listen. I think that this is more a reason he's not on the WW/Teproc scum team and he is on another one.

Following this, Andrew's last post seems scummy as all hell to me.

WW's not switching does implicate mail-mi as mafia somewhat, though Teproc's willingness to lynch him when he could have stayed with joth tends to exonerate him.  Very confusing!

Well SK!mail-mi makes sense in that respect.

If you suspect I'm mafia I would point you to my pushing for WW's lynch yesterday.

He literally is trying to pre-emptively assure us he's not scum. That's fishy, especially when no one directly called on him, but said let's re-read posts from mail-mi's wagon.

We should review mail-mi faust interactions, and Andrew's interactions with the others on mail-mi's wagon - Archetype, DD and Axxle.

Just posting that again since it got lost in the quote in the original.

I think you're argument on a SK switching are good. Do you think this means there's two scum factions like I thought originally and not a SK?  Granted, I'm a sucker for theory because of debate, but this is how I'm following your logic. If it were a SK, why did they not switch?

[mail-mi]

I think you're argument on a SK switching are good. Do you think this means there's two scum factions like I thought originally and not a SK?  Granted, I'm a sucker for theory because of debate, but this is how I'm following your logic. If it were a SK, why did they not switch?

Because the SK is me or andrew. And since it's not me, I think I'm going to vote: andrew

[AndrewisFTTW]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

[mail-mi]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

[Axxle]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

joth (8):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust, ADK, Andrew, Teproc, WW
mail-mi (3):  joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

Teproc (7):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust, Teproc
Axxle (1):. EFHW

Not Voting (5):  chairs, Andrew, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Vote Count 3.11:

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

mail-mi: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
DD: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
faust: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
Andrew: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum. (plus not voting with one)
Axxle: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
Archetype: Never ended the day on a wagon with scum. (but not voting with one)

Vote: Archetype

[AndrewisFTTW]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Archetype lurking so hard on D4 is not acceptable and at this point I wouldn't mind lynching him based on that alone.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

joth (8):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust, ADK, Andrew, Teproc, WW
mail-mi (3):  joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

Teproc (7):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust, Teproc
Axxle (1):. EFHW

Not Voting (5):  chairs, Andrew, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Vote Count 3.11:

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

mail-mi: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
DD: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
faust: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
Andrew: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum. (plus not voting with one)
Axxle: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
Archetype: Never ended the day on a wagon with scum. (but not voting with one)

Vote: Archetype

Thank you for this.

This just assures me in my thoughts on Faust and I think is a great reference point.

That being said, I'm not switching my vote to arch now for the sheer fact that I've been convinced Faust is scum and I keep having to switch because I don't call enough attention to it.

I read him as scum and have throughout the entire day.

[ashersky]

I erred slightly in my flip info for night 3.

Chairs was an Innocent Mason.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I erred slightly in my flip info for night 3.

Chairs was an Innocent Mason.

Neat. I've never played where there are masons.

Why don't the masons claim, like all of them? It'd be really easy for us at this point to PoE the scum then

[Axxle]

I erred slightly in my flip info for night 3.

Chairs was an Innocent Mason.

Neat. I've never played where there are masons.

Why don't the masons claim, like all of them? It'd be really easy for us at this point to PoE the scum then

how about no

[Axxle]

I erred slightly in my flip info for night 3.

Chairs was an Innocent Mason.

Good. I was worried he was a "Child"

[EFHW]

Silly, I'm the other mason.  It just meant we had a QT.

[EFHW]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

One of you is scum and your partner was on the same wagon with you.  This is why we ended in no lynch (along with town not showing up and me thinking too slowly).

mail-mi is right about one of he and Andrew could be SK, and couldn't switch to ensure a lynch.

Only 1 kill N1 could suggest a vig.  They often skip N1.  It's also possible that both factions targeted the same person, or one of the targets was protected.  None of that changes the fact that mail-mi and Andrew are very unlikely to both be town.

[EFHW]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

The SK?  You speak like you know there is one.  ashersky would be all over that!

[EFHW]

WW's not switching does implicate mail-mi as mafia somewhat, though Teproc's willingness to lynch him when he could have stayed with joth tends to exonerate him.  Very confusing!

Well SK!mail-mi makes sense in that respect.

If you suspect I'm mafia I would point you to my pushing for WW's lynch yesterday.

If you read my post, you'll see I already said I don't think you are mafia.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Silly, I'm the other mason.  It just meant we had a QT.

Thank you for not being sarcastic. I didn't know that it was just you two.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

The SK?  You speak like you know there is one.  ashersky would be all over that!

Well that's the most likely scenario. We've already seen a vig.

Why don't we ask everyone why they didn't move their vote to secure a lynch instead of jumping to that conclusion?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.1:

faust (1):  DD
Arch (2):  Andrew, Axxle
Andrew (1):  mail-mi

Not Voting (3):  Faust, EFHW, Archetype

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

The SK?  You speak like you know there is one.  ashersky would be all over that!

Well that's the most likely scenario. We've already seen a vig.

Why don't we ask everyone why they didn't move their vote to secure a lynch instead of jumping to that conclusion?

b/c scum can just lie and say they had a Bar Mitzvah to attend or something.

[Axxle]

I think we have a meta agreement to not lie about IRL things.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I think we have a meta agreement to not lie about IRL things.

Yes, that'd be really shitty, but we can't be sure of other people's actions, sadly.

[EFHW]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

[Axxle]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

My last post was literally me on the plane with the doors closing before takeoff for a 5 hour flight. I *could* have changed my vote but I trusted that *someone* would be on after my post and wanted Andrew to have the chance to claim.

[Delirious Deleuze]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

I was openly against an Andrew lynch since the beginning of the day. I think/thought he was town. Check my post, I am pretty clear on this

[Archetype]

Archetype lurking so hard on D4 is not acceptable and at this point I wouldn't mind lynching him based on that alone.

Day 4 has only just begun. And you'd really lynch someone for lurking when we have 2 scum dead and can determine their partner by rereading their interactions?

I can't change my lurking in the past, so I guess I'll have to stay active today.

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

I checked in at around 6:50 and saw that you and Andrew had posted. You seemed like you were going to vote to get a lynch through, so I sort of left. I prefered mail-mi, so I didn't vote for Andrew.I think I was still logged in - just away from the computer. Until I doublechecked, I totally thought a lynch ended up going through, but it was stopped by some power. Then I checked the timestamps and I saw you were just 2 minutes too late.

[mail-mi]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

you should know why i didn't switch.

[mail-mi]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

Doctoring, roleblocking, same person was killed, a number of things could have happened.

[mail-mi]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

Doctoring, roleblocking, same person was killed, a number of things could have happened.

In fact, I think it's pretty likely that the same person was killed on N1 because SK does not want a dayvig running around.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Archetype lurking so hard on D4 is not acceptable and at this point I wouldn't mind lynching him based on that alone.

Day 4 has only just begun. And you'd really lynch someone for lurking when we have 2 scum dead and can determine their partner by rereading their interactions?

I can't change my lurking in the past, so I guess I'll have to stay active today.

Normally I'd agree with you but what if you're still lurking D5 (if there is one)? Or D6? Would you use the same argument? We need you to be active or I'll push for your lynch.

[Axxle]

Huh? EFHW for some reason suggested it's either me or mail-mi which I don't agree with and all I said was I pushed for WW hard.

If there is an SK (which is very likely), they would have switched for a lynch. Since they didn't, it's reasonably likely that it's you or me. And it's not me, so it's you.

There was also only one kill N1 so what do you make of that? Mafia and the SK have been doing weird things this game but jumping to conclusions like that isn't helpful.

Doctoring, roleblocking, same person was killed, a number of things could have happened.

In fact, I think it's pretty likely that the same person was killed on N1 because SK does not want a dayvig running around.

I think this or mafia trying to NK the NK-immune SK are the most likely things.

[Axxle]

To the people that are attacking players for assuming there's an SK. It's been the most likely scenario since the start of day 3, ever since then it's been a null tell to assume one exists.

[EFHW]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

I was openly against an Andrew lynch since the beginning of the day. I think/thought he was town. Check my post, I am pretty clear on this

Some people would say it is better to lynch town for the information than to have a no lynch.  I'm not saying I agree or not, but I'm wondering what your position is on that. 

[Delirious Deleuze]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

I was openly against an Andrew lynch since the beginning of the day. I think/thought he was town. Check my post, I am pretty clear on this

Some people would say it is better to lynch town for the information than to have a no lynch.  I'm not saying I agree or not, but I'm wondering what your position is on that.

If you say the debates, I generally agree with you. I didn't switch here because I was pretty sure of my read on both sides, and feared WW jumping on me for switching after I said I wouldn't vote for Andrew on D3.

[faust]

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

scum!WW was on the Andrew wagon, if mail-mi is town, why wouldn't he change?

That said, I see that what happened D1 might change that assessment. I guess a reread is necessary.

[faust]

Archetype lurking so hard on D4 is not acceptable and at this point I wouldn't mind lynching him based on that alone.

Really? I don't think we should lynch based on lurking alone at this point. There's a good chance that we have only one mislynch left.

[faust]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

joth (8):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust, ADK, Andrew, Teproc, WW
mail-mi (3):  joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

Teproc (7):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust, Teproc
Axxle (1):. EFHW

Not Voting (5):  chairs, Andrew, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Vote Count 3.11:

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

mail-mi: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
DD: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
faust: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
Andrew: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum. (plus not voting with one)
Axxle: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
Archetype: Never ended the day on a wagon with scum. (but not voting with one)

Vote: Archetype

Thank you for this.

This just assures me in my thoughts on Faust and I think is a great reference point.

That being said, I'm not switching my vote to arch now for the sheer fact that I've been convinced Faust is scum and I keep having to switch because I don't call enough attention to it.

I read him as scum and have throughout the entire day.

Just curious, how does this assure you in your thoughts on me?

[faust]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

Well, I was sleeping. I thought I could get back to this before I fell asleep, but then I couldn't. But then, I'm usually not around for deadlines and until now, it always worked out somehow in the end, so I wasn't really concerned.

[faust]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

I was openly against an Andrew lynch since the beginning of the day. I think/thought he was town. Check my post, I am pretty clear on this

Some people would say it is better to lynch town for the information than to have a no lynch.  I'm not saying I agree or not, but I'm wondering what your position is on that.

If you say the debates, I generally agree with you. I didn't switch here because I was pretty sure of my read on both sides, and feared WW jumping on me for switching after I said I wouldn't vote for Andrew on D3.

You do realize that this portion looks really scummy, yes? And WW died and you were apparently afraid of him... very interesting.

[Axxle]

The vote counts made me *less* confident Faust could be a scumbuddy rather than more.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I found Faust scummy in WoT and he was town. I find Faust scummy here so that must mean he's town, right?

[faust]

This is a tough spot. If we're looking for a SK, we should probably look at players who thought WW scummy, because the shot of WW was almost certainly a try to take out the other team. But if we're looking for that, we'll almost certainly not land on WW's scum partner. So who to look for?

btw, if there is town responsible for the killing, they might consider speaking up now.

[faust]

OK. Everyone please say why you didn't switch to the other wagon to prevent no-lynch.  No particular order needed.  Bar Mitzvah's are usually on Saturdays, so if anyone claims that we'll know they are probably lying.

I was openly against an Andrew lynch since the beginning of the day. I think/thought he was town. Check my post, I am pretty clear on this

Some people would say it is better to lynch town for the information than to have a no lynch.  I'm not saying I agree or not, but I'm wondering what your position is on that.

If you say the debates, I generally agree with you. I didn't switch here because I was pretty sure of my read on both sides, and feared WW jumping on me for switching after I said I wouldn't vote for Andrew on D3.

For example, take this post by DeDe. It makes me think it's more likely that he's SK, but less likely that he's WW's partner. Should I find him more or less scummy now?

[faust]

Did we consider no lynch? We're seven players now, and we have to assume that there are at least two scum of opposite factions left.

If we do lynch, and two townies die tonight, we wake up with four players alive, two of them scum. The only way to win from there would be hoping the scum shoots each other.

If we don't lynch, and tow townies die, we're at a five player MyLo-ish situation tomorrow. Even better, EFHW will likely still be alive, because scum will try to shoot each other. We'll have a really good chance at hitting scum then.

Downside is, of course, we're missing one mislynch that we might still have now.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Did we consider no lynch? We're seven players now, and we have to assume that there are at least two scum of opposite factions left.

If we do lynch, and two townies die tonight, we wake up with four players alive, two of them scum. The only way to win from there would be hoping the scum shoots each other.

If we don't lynch, and tow townies die, we're at a five player MyLo-ish situation tomorrow. Even better, EFHW will likely still be alive, because scum will try to shoot each other. We'll have a really good chance at hitting scum then.

Downside is, of course, we're missing one mislynch that we might still have now.

Sorry, too high to reply to the rest of your posts, but this makes sense only if you believe that scum will shoot each other, and given this point I doubt they would have a reason to. It's better for both of them to shoot town and get another day but with two less town and, depending on which town are chosen (assuming they'll pick the most townie or less likely), we have very little info.

[EFHW]

This is a tough spot. If we're looking for a SK, we should probably look at players who thought WW scummy, because the shot of WW was almost certainly a try to take out the other team. But if we're looking for that, we'll almost certainly not land on WW's scum partner. So who to look for?

btw, if there is town responsible for the killing, they might consider speaking up now.

??  We know WW's scum partner was Teproc.

[EFHW]

Did we consider no lynch? We're seven players now, and we have to assume that there are at least two scum of opposite factions left.

If we do lynch, and two townies die tonight, we wake up with four players alive, two of them scum. The only way to win from there would be hoping the scum shoots each other.

If we don't lynch, and tow townies die, we're at a five player MyLo-ish situation tomorrow. Even better, EFHW will likely still be alive, because scum will try to shoot each other. We'll have a really good chance at hitting scum then.

Downside is, of course, we're missing one mislynch that we might still have now.

Missing a mislynch?

[faust]

This is a tough spot. If we're looking for a SK, we should probably look at players who thought WW scummy, because the shot of WW was almost certainly a try to take out the other team. But if we're looking for that, we'll almost certainly not land on WW's scum partner. So who to look for?

btw, if there is town responsible for the killing, they might consider speaking up now.

??  We know WW's scum partner was Teproc.

There would likely be another partner, right?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

[faust]

Did we consider no lynch? We're seven players now, and we have to assume that there are at least two scum of opposite factions left.

If we do lynch, and two townies die tonight, we wake up with four players alive, two of them scum. The only way to win from there would be hoping the scum shoots each other.

If we don't lynch, and tow townies die, we're at a five player MyLo-ish situation tomorrow. Even better, EFHW will likely still be alive, because scum will try to shoot each other. We'll have a really good chance at hitting scum then.

Downside is, of course, we're missing one mislynch that we might still have now.

Missing a mislynch?

I mean, at this point, we can afford another mislynch. If we no lynch today, we probably can't.

[faust]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

Huh? If scum pushes hard for a lynch, shouldn't that be indication for town to think about not lynching?

[faust]

I'm rereading for Teproc and WW interactions.

First thing of note is ADK talking about WW's slip in the QT. It's interesting to see who jumps this. Teproc does, so I'd expect the other partner not to jump on it. Looking for people who defended WW:

Andrew - get into quite a fight about this.
DeDe - calling ADK townie while at the same time defending WW.

That said, this post by Axxle gives me a town (or at least non-WW-partner) read on Axxle. This post by WW further solidifies my read on Axxle, don't think that's a scum bussing vote.

Then we have Teproc's read post. We can see he put WW into slight scum territory, so I'm expecting his other partner to be in a somewhat townie area. That would implicate DeDe, Andrew, Archetype (and Axxle, but I don't think he's the partner).

DeDe has both Teproc and WW as town reads. Not sure if scum would do that.

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

D2 doesn't give much, but I think DeDe's and Andrew's reactions to Robz' claim were on the scummier side.

D3, there's this: DeDe apparently forgetting that there is a Janitor. I think it's genuine, which would mean that DeDe is not Teproc's partner. Then, DeDe has his turn on WW, which at the time I found scummy, but knowing that WW is scum, it looks better.

Archetype's reads are strange, they don't fit my reads at all. Also, he thinks WW is town. Some scum points for Archetype. Then again, there's this slip about not knowing ADK is dead, which points away from him being WW's partner (because most likely WW's team shot ADK). But right after that, WW respondes with finding Arch townie for it, so now I'm not sure...

Then comes Andrew's big fight with WW. Would they really do that if they were partners? Hm. But it makes me think Andrew could be the one who shot WW.

Archetype is sort of hedging on WW.

Yeah. Further reading of WW vs. Andrew makes me think they're not partners for sure.

Okay, this is hard. If I had to choose a partner for Teproc and WW, it would probably be Archetype, everyone else just doesn't seem to make sense. If I had to choose someone for the WW kill, it would likely be Andrew, but then again, would SK!Andrew makes such an obvious move?

Vote: Archetype for now. I'm more sure about this.

[faust]

That is L-1, I think.

[EFHW]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

Huh? If scum pushes hard for a lynch, shouldn't that be indication for town to think about not lynching?

Huh? is right.  We shouldn't no lynch b/c scum will push for a lynch?  I'm ready to Vote: Andrew.

Someone on Archetype please unvote.  We don't want a quickhammer

[Archetype]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

[Archetype]

I think DD and Faust are the most unlikely to be WW/Teproc's partners. I have a Townread on both and looking at the vote counts/faust's analysis makes me think they aren't his partner.

So I'm wanting to lynch out of Axxle, mail-mi, and Andrew. Moreso mail-mi than any of them. Why was he on the chopping block yesterday, but now completely off? That should be an obvious sign he's scum.

[Archetype]

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

I disagree with this. There was enough support for the joth lynch that he would still be lynched even if they hopped off.

[Archetype]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

I should probably also say claiming this limits it's usefulness by a bit.

Vote:mail-mi btw.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

Huh? If scum pushes hard for a lynch, shouldn't that be indication for town to think about not lynching?

Huh? is right.  We shouldn't no lynch b/c scum will push for a lynch?  I'm ready to Vote: Andrew.

Someone on Archetype please unvote.  We don't want a quickhammer

No. We shouldn't no-lynch because we have a good chance of lynching scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

I disagree with this. There was enough support for the joth lynch that he would still be lynched even if they hopped off.

I agree with faust here and also brought up this point earlier. I think there was a chance we could've avoided joth's lynch.

[faust]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

Huh? If scum pushes hard for a lynch, shouldn't that be indication for town to think about not lynching?

Huh? is right.  We shouldn't no lynch b/c scum will push for a lynch?  I'm ready to Vote: Andrew.

Someone on Archetype please unvote.  We don't want a quickhammer

I'm not scared of quickhammers. If scum wants to out themselves, they should go ahead and do it.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I'm not going to quick hammer, but I'll intent-to-hammer when the day starts winding down.

Arch: Let's hear your defense for everything

[faust]

I think DD and Faust are the most unlikely to be WW/Teproc's partners. I have a Townread on both and looking at the vote counts/faust's analysis makes me think they aren't his partner.

So I'm wanting to lynch out of Axxle, mail-mi, and Andrew. Moreso mail-mi than any of them. Why was he on the chopping block yesterday, but now completely off? That should be an obvious sign he's scum.

Why is mail-mi being at L-1 yesterday, but not considered now a sign that he's scum?

[faust]

I guess I should put the results of my reread together:

Mafia (Human Children) read, from most likely to least:
Archetype

mail-mi
Axxle

DeDe
Andrew

EFHW

SK read, from most likely to least:

Andrew
mail-mi
Archetype
Axxle
DeDe
EFHW

[AndrewisFTTW]

How does one have a "SK read"?

[faust]

I think DeDe should probably be a bit more up in the SK ranking. That ranking is kind of blurry anyway.

[faust]

How does one have a "SK read"?

From analyzing night kills, I guess. Also, people who are very much trying not to die are generally more likely to be SK. But yes, it's hard, and that's why we should find the missing mafia partner first.

[Archetype]

I'm not going to quick hammer, but I'll intent-to-hammer when the day starts winding down.

Arch: Let's hear your defense for everything

I'm not quite sure what "everything" is.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.2:

faust (1):  DD
Arch (3):  Andrew, Axxle, faust
Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
mail-mi (1):  archetype

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I'm not going to quick hammer, but I'll intent-to-hammer when the day starts winding down.

Arch: Let's hear your defense for everything

I'm not quite sure what "everything" is.

To the your wagon, to people's arguments on you, your voting history.

You know, the things leading to you being at L-1...

[Archetype]

Halfway through my reread I just realized that Archetype is still in this game. Not good.

vote: Archetype

Still rereading...

So, lurking. I've already responded to this. I was very busy IRL and didnt have much time to post.

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

joth (8):  chairs, mail-mi, Robz, Faust, ADK, Andrew, Teproc, WW
mail-mi (3):  joth, Axxle, Yuma
Faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Archetype

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

Teproc (7):  Robz888, ADK, DD, mail-mi, Axxle, Faust, Teproc
Axxle (1):. EFHW

Not Voting (5):  chairs, Andrew, Archetype, WW

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Vote Count 3.11:

mail-mi (4):  Archetype, Axxle, DD, Andrew
Andrew (4):  WW, EFHW, Faust, mail-mi

Not Voting (1):  chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on May 26 at 7:00 p.m.

mail-mi: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
DD: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
faust: Ended all 3 days on a wagon with scum.
Andrew: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum. (plus not voting with one)
Axxle: Ended 1 day on a wagon with scum.
Archetype: Never ended the day on a wagon with scum. (but not voting with one)

Vote: Archetype

I'm guessing this is what you want me to respond to.

Day 1: missed the deadline. I totally regret not being there because I had a townread on Jo and thought the wagon on him was ridiculous

Day 2: This would involve me claiming.

Day 3: Don't think Andrew is scum, so I didn't join. I thought mail-mi was scum, so I voted there.

I honestly am confused why Axxles find not voting with scum to be scummier than voting with scum.


Faust makes good points. I had no solid read on WW, so I was hedging back and forth. His vote is the only one I don't find scummy on my wagon.

[EFHW]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

I should probably also say claiming this limits it's usefulness by a bit.

Vote:mail-mi btw.

yes, claim.  I think we are ready for some clearing up.

[EFHW]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

Huh? If scum pushes hard for a lynch, shouldn't that be indication for town to think about not lynching?

Huh? is right.  We shouldn't no lynch b/c scum will push for a lynch?  I'm ready to Vote: Andrew.

Someone on Archetype please unvote.  We don't want a quickhammer

No. We shouldn't no-lynch because we have a good chance of lynching scum.

But that's not what you said.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think no lynch is a good option. Even if there are two more scum of seperate factions and they're aiming for eachother, there's no guarentee they'll hit eachother. I'd think they'd be pushing hard for a lynch today.

Huh? If scum pushes hard for a lynch, shouldn't that be indication for town to think about not lynching?

Huh? is right.  We shouldn't no lynch b/c scum will push for a lynch?  I'm ready to Vote: Andrew.

Someone on Archetype please unvote.  We don't want a quickhammer

No. We shouldn't no-lynch because we have a good chance of lynching scum.

But that's not what you said.

I said I would think scum would be pushing hard for a lynch today. That plus we have two dead scum to reread. So we have a good chance of hitting scum today based on all that info.

I think faust is town for pursuing a no-lynch as there's no reason for scum to propose a no-lynch. I also think mail-mi is town for WW and Teproc's seemingly willingness to lynch him. So for me that leaves DD, Axxle, and Arch. I feel good about Arch but could lynch DD too.

[Archetype]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

I should probably also say claiming this limits it's usefulness by a bit.

Vote:mail-mi btw.

yes, claim.  I think we are ready for some clearing up.

I'm a X-shot Timid Sensor. Each night, as long as someone was lynched the previous day, I can ask one of two questions to ashersky: "Were there scum on the wagon?"/"Were there scum off the wagon?". He'll reply with a yes/no answer. I will not be claiming how many shots I possess.

Pretty weak at actually finding scum. Especially in a game this large. So once the ICs were named, instead, I decided to try and use it to clear people. I'd try to end the day with my votes wherever

N1: did nothing. I didn't plan on doing anything either since I was likely to get a "yes" answer and 1 guaranteed scum out of 7 really means nothing .
N2: I used my power. That's why my vote is weird here. However, ashersky informed me that I had missed the submission deadline. Which really, really, really sucks. Like, potentially-game-losing sucks.
N3: no one got lynched. If EFHW voted for mail-mi or voted for Andrew, I'd use my power wherever there was 2 guaranteed Town (me/EFHW or chairs/EFHW). That's another reason why I didn't want to move to Andrew.

That's also why why reads list is so weird and weak. I was hoping to use my power to get some concrete evidence. It's also why I'm so frustrated that I'm about to be lynched without getting to use my power AND dropping the ball night 2.

[Archetype]

So me claiming makes it unlikely to find scum tonight and likely to be killed. But I can hopefully still WIFOM them with my power.

[Axxle]

unvote

[Axxle]

Looks like we could use you to hopefully clear someone. Why didn't you help lynch Andrew again?

[faust]

unvote

That's not the kind of claim I expect as a fake claim.

[faust]

Archetype, what does the "Timid" stand for?

[faust]

If I'm taking Arch off the table, that would leave me with mail-mi as next best target. I wonder about Axxle though. I always had the feeling that he's town. With all other players, I feel like there's some concrete evidence, but I still feel like all I have on Axxle are gut reads. Is there any specific reason why he can't be WW's and Teproc's partner?

[Axxle]

If we have efhw, the lynches, and one other person off wagon we can effectively cop the person off wagon.

[faust]

If we have efhw, the lynches, and one other person off wagon we can effectively cop the person off wagon.

Nice. But of course we need to reach an agreement first. Plus, the person we're about to lynch has no incentive to participate in our little plan, they could just self-hammer (if scum). And it's all probably pointless, because Archetype is going to die.

[faust]

I just realized we haven't talked about last night's prize at all. Is there a reason for this? People from Oozma Kappa?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I should remind everyone how Archetype had a ridiculous fake claim in WoT and rode it out until the very end, so I'm not 100% convinced here.

[EFHW]

I just realized we haven't talked about last night's prize at all. Is there a reason for this? People from Oozma Kappa?

It's not over.  We've only done round 1, and 1/2 of round 2 of debates.

[faust]

I just realized we haven't talked about last night's prize at all. Is there a reason for this? People from Oozma Kappa?

It's not over.  We've only done round 1, and 1/2 of round 2 of debates.

I'm talking about the day before.

[EFHW]

I just realized we haven't talked about last night's prize at all. Is there a reason for this? People from Oozma Kappa?

It's not over.  We've only done round 1, and 1/2 of round 2 of debates.

I'm talking about the day before.

Oh, right, the decommissioned door.  Well, like any claiming, the owner has to use some judgment about what to say, or whether to say anything.

[EFHW]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

I should probably also say claiming this limits it's usefulness by a bit.

Vote:mail-mi btw.

yes, claim.  I think we are ready for some clearing up.

I'm a X-shot Timid Sensor. Each night, as long as someone was lynched the previous day, I can ask one of two questions to ashersky: "Were there scum on the wagon?"/"Were there scum off the wagon?". He'll reply with a yes/no answer. I will not be claiming how many shots I possess.

Pretty weak at actually finding scum. Especially in a game this large. So once the ICs were named, instead, I decided to try and use it to clear people. I'd try to end the day with my votes wherever

N1: did nothing. I didn't plan on doing anything either since I was likely to get a "yes" answer and 1 guaranteed scum out of 7 really means nothing .
N2: I used my power. That's why my vote is weird here. However, ashersky informed me that I had missed the submission deadline. Which really, really, really sucks. Like, potentially-game-losing sucks.
N3: no one got lynched. If EFHW voted for mail-mi or voted for Andrew, I'd use my power wherever there was 2 guaranteed Town (me/EFHW or chairs/EFHW). That's another reason why I didn't want to move to Andrew.

That's also why why reads list is so weird and weak. I was hoping to use my power to get some concrete evidence. It's also why I'm so frustrated that I'm about to be lynched without getting to use my power AND dropping the ball night 2.

Why would your vote have an effect on your power?  Can you only ask about the wagon you were on?  Also, by my records you didn't vote Day 2.  Did I miss something?

[faust]

I should remind everyone how Archetype had a ridiculous fake claim in WoT and rode it out until the very end, so I'm not 100% convinced here.

Can you point me to it? I sort of ignored WoT after I died early...

[EFHW]

That is too bad about Nights 2 and 3.  Those damn deadlines!  I find this a believable claim.  Just in case Archetype can somehow live through the night, we should really not lynch him today.

[faust]

That is too bad about Nights 2 and 3.  Those damn deadlines!  I find this a believable claim.  Just in case Archetype can somehow live through the night, we should really not lynch him today.

Yes, we can probably revisit Archetype if he's still alive tomorrow.

[AndrewisFTTW]

That is too bad about Nights 2 and 3.  Those damn deadlines!  I find this a believable claim.  Just in case Archetype can somehow live through the night, we should really not lynch him today.

Yes, we can probably revisit Archetype if he's still alive tomorrow.

That's fine. Archetype claimed to be a Seraph Knight that doctored yuma and thus he was taken off the table for a lynch and won the game.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: DD

[faust]

vote: DD

Hmmm. What do you think about Axxle?

[EFHW]

Maybe this summary of the voting records of everyone currently alive will be helpful.  I'm not sure what to make of it, but it might be good to have.  "/" separate Days.  The numbers indicate how many unique people each person has voted for.

2   EFHW:   /Axxle /Andrew/Andrew
3   Archetype:   yuma, Andrew // mail-mi / mail-mi
6   mail-mi:   WW, Axxle, joth / Teproc / DD, Andrew / Andrew
6   DD:       joth, faust / Teproc / faust, WW, mail-mi / faust
7   faust:   Robz, WW, joth, WW, joth / Teproc L-1 / DD, Andrew / Arch L-1
8   Andrew:   mail-mi, faust, DD, mail-mi, joth / / WW, DD, mail-mi / Arch
8   Axxle:   yuma, faust, WW, joth, DD, yuma, joth, mail-mi / Teproc / mail-mi, Arch, WW, Arch, mail-mi / Arch

[mail-mi]

vote: DD

a DD lynch would be my second preferred.

[EFHW]

DD, you seem very sure of faust being scum.  Can you refresh our memories as to why?

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: DD

Hmmm. What do you think about Axxle?

Axxle has avoided suspicion throughout the whole game which is suspicious, but I'm not so sure he's the best option today.

[EFHW]

This will seem obnoxious, but town should probably vote for the IC's in the debates to ensure town control of the powers.  This is kind of breaking ashersky's game, which I hate to do.  But it is best for town to keep the powers out of scum hands.  I'm pretty sure that if IC's win, no one gets to use the prize.  Since we are down to probably 2/7 being scum, it might be worth town not getting the prize to keep scum from getting it.

[Axxle]

This will seem obnoxious, but town should probably vote for the IC's in the debates to ensure town control of the powers.  This is kind of breaking ashersky's game, which I hate to do.  But it is best for town to keep the powers out of scum hands.  I'm pretty sure that if IC's win, no one gets to use the prize.  Since we are down to probably 2/7 being scum, it might be worth town not getting the prize to keep scum from getting it.

He hasn't verified you'd be getting them if you win.

[Axxle]

Oh wait that's what you said

[mail-mi]

This will seem obnoxious, but town should probably vote for the IC's in the debates to ensure town control of the powers.  This is kind of breaking ashersky's game, which I hate to do.  But it is best for town to keep the powers out of scum hands.  I'm pretty sure that if IC's win, no one gets to use the prize.  Since we are down to probably 2/7 being scum, it might be worth town not getting the prize to keep scum from getting it.

so, should I just let chairs win for the last debate?

[EFHW]

This will seem obnoxious, but town should probably vote for the IC's in the debates to ensure town control of the powers.  This is kind of breaking ashersky's game, which I hate to do.  But it is best for town to keep the powers out of scum hands.  I'm pretty sure that if IC's win, no one gets to use the prize.  Since we are down to probably 2/7 being scum, it might be worth town not getting the prize to keep scum from getting it.

so, should I just let chairs win for the last debate?

That would probably be the best course.  Definitely if you are scum!

[Archetype]

Archetype, what does the "Timid" stand for?

Its an ash modifier. A normal sensor is much more powerful.

That is too bad about Nights 2 and 3.  Those damn deadlines!  I find this a believable claim.  Just in case Archetype can somehow live through the night, we should really not lynch him today.

Yes, we can probably revisit Archetype if he's still alive tomorrow.

That's fine. Archetype claimed to be a Seraph Knight that doctored yuma and thus he was taken off the table for a lynch and won the game.

It was awesome.

This will seem obnoxious, but town should probably vote for the IC's in the debates to ensure town control of the powers.  This is kind of breaking ashersky's game, which I hate to do.  But it is best for town to keep the powers out of scum hands.  I'm pretty sure that if IC's win, no one gets to use the prize.  Since we are down to probably 2/7 being scum, it might be worth town not getting the prize to keep scum from getting it.

I'll vote OK first priority and ICs 2nd.


Vote: Axxle Him not having much suspicion is a great point. I still need to reread WW/Teproc for interactions. I've just been going off of what faust has said.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.3:

faust (1):  DD
Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (1):  archetype

Not Voting (2): Axxle, faust

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

This will seem obnoxious, but town should probably vote for the IC's in the debates to ensure town control of the powers.  This is kind of breaking ashersky's game, which I hate to do.  But it is best for town to keep the powers out of scum hands.  I'm pretty sure that if IC's win, no one gets to use the prize.  Since we are down to probably 2/7 being scum, it might be worth town not getting the prize to keep scum from getting it.

so, should I just let chairs win for the last debate?

That would probably be the best course.  Definitely if you are scum!

If we have zero town reads we've already lost.

[Axxle]

vote: Mail-mi

With voting habits and everything else I think this is most likely unless I've completely missed something.

Andrew is NOT mafia, WW would not bus in that situation. Archetypes claim is crazy enough to work. Dd really didn't seem like teproc's partner. And Faust? I'm willing to switch to him today.

[mail-mi]

vote: Mail-mi

With voting habits and everything else I think this is most likely unless I've completely missed something.

Andrew is NOT mafia, WW would not bus in that situation. Archetypes claim is crazy enough to work. Dd really didn't seem like teproc's partner. And Faust? I'm willing to switch to him today.

I am letting the IC win the challenge for the prize. Will that help aliviate the scum read on me?

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: Mail-mi

With voting habits and everything else I think this is most likely unless I've completely missed something.

Andrew is NOT mafia, WW would not bus in that situation. Archetypes claim is crazy enough to work. Dd really didn't seem like teproc's partner. And Faust? I'm willing to switch to him today.

I am letting the IC win the challenge for the prize. Will that help aliviate the scum read on me?

No.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.4:

faust (1):  DD
Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (1):  archetype
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (1):  faust

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[faust]

Yeah, I think I should vote: Axxle. PoE mostly. Also, I remember how scary good he plays as scum from Philosopher's Mafia.

[EFHW]

vote: Mail-mi

With voting habits and everything else I think this is most likely unless I've completely missed something.

Andrew is NOT mafia, WW would not bus in that situation. Archetypes claim is crazy enough to work. Dd really didn't seem like teproc's partner. And Faust? I'm willing to switch to him today.

what kind of scum do you think he is?

You spoke about townreads.  mail-mi and Archetype are both townreads for me.

[EFHW]

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

[EFHW]

That leaves me with Andrew, Axxle, faust.  I think Andrew and faust are most likely.

[AndrewisFTTW]

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

DD seems more like he could be the SK than mafia. ADK's and WW's deaths point to him combined with my slight scum read on him the whole game.

I could vote Axxle I guess. I don't feel too strongly one way or another but that's probably something Axxle would be very careful about as scum.

[faust]

That leaves me with Andrew, Axxle, faust.  I think Andrew and faust are most likely.

Why am I more likely than Axxle?

[EFHW]

He seems townier to me.  When I have more time I'll look into that more.

[Delirious Deleuze]

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

Three main reasons:

1) He was lurking pretty damn hard until D4, which in any respect is suspect. Then again, I can't complain much because I've been busy IRL too, but still it scares me. Especially because in the game I past two games I played where faust was scum (HoC and X-Men) he played in a very similar way (lurking pretty hard early game then beginning to get really into it near the end.)

2) He's been on the same wagon as scum 3 nights in a row.

3) He always begins to accuse people whenever people start voting for him, and he creates a new wagon, often in a OMGUS kind of way. Much like he did with me, early yesterday. And today.

Keep in mind this was at the beginning of the day, his replies have given me a pretty town feel for him and I'm beginning to believe he was just actually busy.  He's went from almost for sure scum in my book to leaning town. He suggested no lynches, analyzed each lynch option, everyone's post, and he's just been much more engaged in a very towny way.

Keeping that in mind, I've really been getting a scum feel on Andrew and mail-mi after quickly rereading today. Especially mail-mi's post where he asks if people will stop thinking he's scum after trying to let the ICs win the debate, which should just happen any way. I found that really damn scummy.

Because of that Vote: mail-mi

From there, I think he's more scummy than faust and at the very least less productive as a town member than faust.

[Delirious Deleuze]

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

DD seems more like he could be the SK than mafia. ADK's and WW's deaths point to him combined with my slight scum read on him the whole game.

I could vote Axxle I guess. I don't feel too strongly one way or another but that's probably something Axxle would be very careful about as scum.

I don't think a SK would be so obvious in killing people who were accusing them. That seems like a very stupid move.

[Axxle]

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

DD seems more like he could be the SK than mafia. ADK's and WW's deaths point to him combined with my slight scum read on him the whole game.

I could vote Axxle I guess. I don't feel too strongly one way or another but that's probably something Axxle would be very careful about as scum.

I don't think a SK would be so obvious in killing people who were accusing them. That seems like a very stupid move.

I think they would. People value their own opinions a lot more than those of the dead. Another reason I don't suspect Andrew is that he hasn't shot EFHW yet.

[Delirious Deleuze]

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

DD seems more like he could be the SK than mafia. ADK's and WW's deaths point to him combined with my slight scum read on him the whole game.

I could vote Axxle I guess. I don't feel too strongly one way or another but that's probably something Axxle would be very careful about as scum.

I don't think a SK would be so obvious in killing people who were accusing them. That seems like a very stupid move.

I think they would. People value their own opinions a lot more than those of the dead. Another reason I don't suspect Andrew is that he hasn't shot EFHW yet.

This assumes people wouldn't look back and say, "herrrrr, this person got killed (and one of them were scum), guess the person they were all accusing is the person who killed them.

And I don't think someone in the position of SK would be that stupid.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

That means at best you have no idea.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

That means at best you have no idea.

It means in addition to my scum read on you that I've had all game, WW's death convinces me.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

That means at best you have no idea.

It means in addition to my scum read on you that I've had all game, WW's death convinces me.

What are your arguments on me again?

I sound forced and WW died?

[Axxle]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

That means at best you have no idea.

People value their own opinions a lot more than those of the dead.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

That means at best you have no idea.

It means in addition to my scum read on you that I've had all game, WW's death convinces me.

What are your arguments on me again?

I sound forced and WW died?

Well your unwarranted sarcastic comments for starters.

[AndrewisFTTW]

mail-mi is a very convenient vote. And noticed that DD called me scummy after I put my vote on him.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Except for the fact that it's happened before and it's really easy to carry out the kill and then turn around and use that argument.

That means at best you have no idea.

It means in addition to my scum read on you that I've had all game, WW's death convinces me.

What are your arguments on me again?

I sound forced and WW died?

Well your unwarranted sarcastic comments for starters.

Sarcasm? That's absurd. You think I'm scum because I'm annoyed at your rather shallow case on me throughout the game and you seem convinced you want to mislynch me.

I asked for your reason because from my understanding you have two on me.

PPE: both of those reasons are new, and seeing I missed like two days, my opinions changing make sense.

And I voted for mail-mi yesterday and have had a scum read on him for a while. So yeah, pretty convienent that my opinion has been fairly similar on him. Especially after he posted more

[EFHW]

What kind of scum do you think mail-mi is?  He's not mafia.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sarcasm? That's absurd. You think I'm scum because I'm annoyed at your rather shallow case on me throughout the game and you seem convinced you want to mislynch me.

I asked for your reason because from my understanding you have two on me.

PPE: both of those reasons are new, and seeing I missed like two days, my opinions changing make sense.

And I voted for mail-mi yesterday and have had a scum read on him for a while. So yeah, pretty convienent that my opinion has been fairly similar on him. Especially after he posted more

I'm sorry you don't like my reasons but I have nothing to prove to you. mail-mi is a convenient vote because he's the popular lynch right now and so you can vote for him and call me scummy for whatever reason you choose. Being sarcastic and annoyed is fine. Being sarcastic and annoyed for no reason is weird to me.

[Axxle]

What kind of scum do you think mail-mi is?  He's not mafia.

Why? I think he's the likeliest to be mafia.

[Delirious Deleuze]

What kind of scum do you think mail-mi is?  He's not mafia.

To begin, I don't agree that he couldn't be mafia.

I'm pretty sure you're refering to this:

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

I disagree with this. There was enough support for the joth lynch that he would still be lynched even if they hopped off.

I agree with faust here and also brought up this point earlier. I think there was a chance we could've avoided joth's lynch.

It's alright logic, but I think that WW and Teproc are good enough to plan such an interaction. There was a lot of pressure on the Joth lynch. They might have planned to be against each other in the case that they get lynched, the others can use such an easy wagon on D1 to "prove" they're not the scum partner.

Again, both scenarios could be right, but I generally tend to think highly of Teproc and WW in their stragies. I don't put this as something they wouldn't think or pull off.

That being said, I think there's a chance he could be a SK (given that I think there is one, because it seems to make more sense than a second mafia faction or a night vig along with our day vig.)

I've seen his posts as generally scummy in D3.

I think that that in combination with the posts he's had today (especially the "now don't vote for me are even more scummy. Although I think he could still be Teproc's and WW's partners, he could also be the SK.

My only qualm with him being the SK is that he probably wouldn't kill people at night who have voted for him (WW, ADK, etc.), which make me think more that's he's Teproc's and WW's partner.

PPE (2):

Sarcasm? That's absurd. You think I'm scum because I'm annoyed at your rather shallow case on me throughout the game and you seem convinced you want to mislynch me.

I asked for your reason because from my understanding you have two on me.

PPE: both of those reasons are new, and seeing I missed like two days, my opinions changing make sense.

And I voted for mail-mi yesterday and have had a scum read on him for a while. So yeah, pretty convienent that my opinion has been fairly similar on him. Especially after he posted more

I'm sorry you don't like my reasons but I have nothing to prove to you. mail-mi is a convenient vote because he's the popular lynch right now and so you can vote for him and call me scummy for whatever reason you choose. Being sarcastic and annoyed is fine. Being sarcastic and annoyed for no reason is weird to me.

I mean sure, but I think given your being convinced I'm scum and not having good reasons, I think that lets me be a bit annoyed. This is the same thing that happened last game when I was a cop and it's a bit annoying. But yeah, you don't have anything to prove to me, and I learned last game that internet debates are stupid, so a'ight.

What kind of scum do you think mail-mi is?  He's not mafia.

Why? I think he's the likeliest to be mafia.

I don't think likeliest, but definitely has a chance to be.

[AndrewisFTTW]

What kind of scum do you think mail-mi is?  He's not mafia.

Why? I think he's the likeliest to be mafia.

I don't think likeliest, but definitely has a chance to be.

I agree with this. I prefer DD but will vote mail-mi to get a lynch. Speaking of that, what is at now? L-2 or something?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Quote fails!

[AndrewisFTTW]

mail-mi and Axxle are both at L-2. Now is a good time to reread again, which I will be doing shortly and I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Edit:

What kind of scum do you think mail-mi is?  He's not mafia.

Why? I think he's the likeliest to be mafia.

After thinking about the other options, I realized I'm stupid and I agree. The only reason I was wary is because I think he could be a SK too, but as of right now he's my best bet for mafia.

Quote fails!

I've been there

[Delirious Deleuze]

mail-mi and Axxle are both at L-2. Now is a good time to reread again, which I will be doing shortly and I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

I'll reread after I go walk a dog.

I think everyone should also reread them in relation to WW, Teproc, but also in relation to the people who got killed at night.

Although I don't think it's all that telling, because a SK would realize not to kill people out against him (in my opinion), the lack of interaction, etc. or something else might pop out as interesting.

[Axxle]

I'll reread after I go walk a dog.

What color is it?

[Archetype]

It's finals week, so I'm just popping in between study sessions.  I haven't had a chance to reread (and am starting to think I won't have one at all...) but this post by mail:

vote: Mail-mi

With voting habits and everything else I think this is most likely unless I've completely missed something.

Andrew is NOT mafia, WW would not busi in that situation. Archetypes claim is crazy enough to work. Dd really didn't seem like teproc's partner. And Faust? I'm willing to switch to him today.

I am letting the IC win the challenge for the prize. Will that help aliviate the scum read on me?

makes me want to vote for him again. But I'm thinking an Axxle lynch would be better. I have at least mild townreads on everyone else, so I honestly think its likely that they are both scum.

[Archetype]

I was trying to be ambiguous in my role description, but I think I might as well full claim. I have 2 shots of my power.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.5:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (2):  archetype, faust
mail-mi (2):  Axxle, DD

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

Kills:
1.  yuma, Town Desperado - Killed on Night 1.
2.  Robz888, 3-Shot Role Cop and Coroner - Killed on Night 2.
13.  ADK, a Vanilla Monster - Killed on Night 2.
3.  chairs - James P. Sullivan, the Innocent Mason - Killed on Night 3.
5. witherweaver, Human Child Nexus - Killed on Night 3.

yuma expressed scumreads on Andrew, faust and mailmi. Any of them are more likely to be the killer. *Maybe* WW but he was clearly losing the WW read by the end of the day.

Robz is super likely to be a mafia kill, he had a guilty on one of their own so they probably assumed he was a cop. Nothing to really read into here.

ADK expressed a huge scumread on mail-mi, but if Robz was killed by mafia and mail-mi is mafia then mail-mi probably didn't kill ADK. ADK had minor confusion about Andrew at the end of the day. He also had scumreads on DD and Archetype in his lists way back in day 1. Mmmm... this is harder to discern.

WW was clearly an SK kill. I'll read into this later.

chairs was a mafia kill. They're starting to kill obv town and not worry too much about the SK. The question is why they didn't kill EFHW who's actually around. I don't think Andrew would do this, EFHW has a big scumread on him. mail-mi probably would take the risk, EFHW only voted for him as a last resort and has called him town for a long time. She also felt DD was town or at least wasn't feeling his wagon.

This along with everything else just screams mail-mi.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I just reread D1, I'll reread the rest tomorrow.

As for now, rereading has changed my thoughts a lot.

To begin, something I noted between Teproc and WW; Teproc was very for claiming houses and prizes, WW was against it. This is evidence that they definitely planned interactions or at least were conscience of each others' posts. Teproc then voted for WW for no good reason, they argued shortly, and it was forgot about. I think this interaction shows that scum, in this game, are definitely planning interactions or at least trying to make it so it's not so easy to spot them by interacting in aggressive ways, slightly, to their partners.

With this in mind, I got the following thoughts:

mail-mi: He had a short vote on WW for no good reason, but nothing really became of this. I thought of it in the same boat as Teproc vote on WW. Then I saw Teproc's read on mail-mi and it was "slight scum" just like he had on WW. I was getting more convinced until I went back and reread Teproc's and WW's wagon on mail-mi and realized how close it got to lynching him and it only didn't because.... ADk... and Andrew switched. I don't think Teproc and WW would have risked this, even if they were trying to construct aggression and suspicion on each other so people didn't think they were partners.

That leaves me with only a SK read on him, but I feel much more towny after rereading D1. Unvote.

AndrewisFTTW: I saw that Teproc had a fight with Andrew that was pretty lengthy. This is very different than the interactions Teproc was having with WW. It gave me a very town read because this fight actually felt real and it didn't go away, at nausia. This fight, I thought, was really similar to the fight between ADK and WW in D1 regarding WW's fake slip in the QT. It gave me a bit more of a town read on Andrew.

He also had a small fight over whether or not my post was artificial or not, and WW said it wasn't he said it did. This interaction didn't last long and just seemed like WW trying to white knight me.

He had another interaction with WW over Joth's self vote. I saw nothing consequential from here.

This all gave me a fairly null-town read.

Axxle: This is where the reread got interesting. Despite Axxle's obviously weird play style in D1, he had more than short, non-substantial posts.

1. He votes for WW because, "wagons are fun." This seems silly and an excuse to vote for him without having reasons... He quickly swithes his vote too. Keep in mind this was well after the RVS.

2. Then he jumps on my wagon which is whatever, but then WW begins to have a slight scum read on him because he feels Axxle's vote on me was "artificial"? It seems very similar to the interaction between Teproc and WW at the beginning of D1.

3. Teproc had a slight scum read on Axxle and WW had a slight scum read on him. This differentiation might be nothing, and probably isn't, but it would also be the pattern well thoughtout scum would make when making reads, or at least I think it is.

4. He first jumps on Yuma to use the shot right away and even gives a list of people to use it on.... then he votes yuma, because he's afraid that scum will just manipulate the shot and make him shoot a town. This seems pretty backwards given his first reaction with it. Mail-mi and Yuma catch onto this and shortly after he stops this discussion completely.

5. He says we shouldn't listen to the ICs or let them make decisions. This is an inherently scummy thing to say.

6. He jumps on mail-mi's wagon with literally no reason posted.

7. Then he just jumps and put's joth at L-2.

I'm pretty convinced he's scum after that reread, despite his lack of posts to begin with.

Vote: Axxle. That's L-1

[mail-mi]

It's finals week, so I'm just popping in between study sessions.  I haven't had a chance to reread (and am starting to think I won't have one at all...) but this post by mail:

vote: Mail-mi

With voting habits and everything else I think this is most likely unless I've completely missed something.

Andrew is NOT mafia, WW would not busi in that situation. Archetypes claim is crazy enough to work. Dd really didn't seem like teproc's partner. And Faust? I'm willing to switch to him today.

I am letting the IC win the challenge for the prize. Will that help aliviate the scum read on me?

makes me want to vote for him again. But I'm thinking an Axxle lynch would be better. I have at least mild townreads on everyone else, so I honestly think its likely that they are both scum.

how does this make me scummy? i'm letting a confirmed town win the debate, and I don't want people to have a false scumread on me.

[Axxle]

My responses in bold

I just reread D1, I'll reread the rest tomorrow.

As for now, rereading has changed my thoughts a lot.

To begin, something I noted between Teproc and WW; Teproc was very for claiming houses and prizes, WW was against it. This is evidence that they definitely planned interactions or at least were conscience of each others' posts. Teproc then voted for WW for no good reason, they argued shortly, and it was forgot about. I think this interaction shows that scum, in this game, are definitely planning interactions or at least trying to make it so it's not so easy to spot them by interacting in aggressive ways, slightly, to their partners.

Good catch.

With this in mind, I got the following thoughts:

mail-mi: He had a short vote on WW for no good reason, but nothing really became of this. I thought of it in the same boat as Teproc vote on WW. Then I saw Teproc's read on mail-mi and it was "slight scum" just like he had on WW. I was getting more convinced until I went back and reread Teproc's and WW's wagon on mail-mi and realized how close it got to lynching him and it only didn't because.... ADk... and Andrew switched. I don't think Teproc and WW would have risked this, even if they were trying to construct aggression and suspicion on each other so people didn't think they were partners.

You just said earlier that scum had planned a lot of aggression out. If you reread Day 1 you'd realize that it'd look really scummy if Teproc hadn't switched his vote so late in the day and WW was already really committed to the mail-mi wagon.

That leaves me with only a SK read on him, but I feel much more towny after rereading D1. Unvote.

There are other days too!

AndrewisFTTW: I saw that Teproc had a fight with Andrew that was pretty lengthy. This is very different than the interactions Teproc was having with WW. It gave me a very town read because this fight actually felt real and it didn't go away, at nausia. This fight, I thought, was really similar to the fight between ADK and WW in D1 regarding WW's fake slip in the QT. It gave me a bit more of a town read on Andrew.

He also had a small fight over whether or not my post was artificial or not, and WW said it wasn't he said it did. This interaction didn't last long and just seemed like WW trying to white knight me.

He had another interaction with WW over Joth's self vote. I saw nothing consequential from here.

This all gave me a fairly null-town read.

ok

Axxle: This is where the reread got interesting. Despite Axxle's obviously weird play style in D1, he had more than short, non-substantial posts.

1. He votes for WW because, "wagons are fun." This seems silly and an excuse to vote for him without having reasons... He quickly swithes his vote too. Keep in mind this was well after the RVS.

His response to me voting him seemed pretty town, what can I say.

2. Then he jumps on my wagon which is whatever, but then WW begins to have a slight scum read on him because he feels Axxle's vote on me was "artificial"? It seems very similar to the interaction between Teproc and WW at the beginning of D1.

Why would I not mislynch Joth to oblivion here? He *selfvoted*. That's the easiest thing to ride on till the end of the day.

3. Teproc had a slight scum read on Axxle and WW had a slight scum read on him. This differentiation might be nothing, and probably isn't, but it would also be the pattern well thoughtout scum would make when making reads, or at least I think it is.

I assume you mean teproc has a slight town read on me. Sure this kinda points to it but only if the other evidence does too. It's pretty weak on it's own.

4. He first jumps on Yuma to use the shot right away and even gives a list of people to use it on.... then he votes yuma, because he's afraid that scum will just manipulate the shot and make him shoot a town. This seems pretty backwards given his first reaction with it. Mail-mi and Yuma catch onto this and shortly after he stops this discussion completely.

I thought yuma was lying after his behavior. And if he wasn't, if we brought up his wagon to close to a lynch he'd have to prove himself and I'd get exactly what I want, a dayvig. It turns out that his behavior was because he was in fact *not* a dayvig but a Desperado which explains his reluctance.

5. He says we shouldn't listen to the ICs or let them make decisions. This is an inherently scummy thing to say.

I never said that. I said stop taking their opinions as law which most of the town was doing.

6. He jumps on mail-mi's wagon with literally no reason posted.

7. Then he just jumps and put's joth at L-2.

First off: WRONG ORDER. I voted joth, then voted mailmi. Big difference. I voted joth since the day was within 10 hours from ending and joth seemed like the only viable lynch. Even if I thought he might be town a no lynch is pretty bad day 1. After WW, Andrew, *and* joth voted mail-mi I saw a chance to lynch someone I didn't have townread on and took it. That doesn't need any explanation if you actually read through my posts.

I'm pretty convinced he's scum after that reread, despite his lack of posts to begin with.

Vote: Axxle. That's L-1

Just reading D1 and then putting me at L-1 when you've already said you're going to read the rest later sounds incredibly disingenuous.

Because I'm thinking of it: the Robz kill might not have come from mafia since WW was a Nexus and might not have been worried about it.

[faust]

I just thought something scary...

So I don't really feel like anyone here is a really plausible choice for WW's and Teproc's partner. Which leaves me thinking, what if there is no other partner? What if this is multiball, with two two-member scum factions, like in Toy Story Mafia? And then I thought of this:

All other game play will be the same as my other mafia games. As mentioned, this is a Tribute game, so you should expect to recognize aspects of a number of other games from f.ds throughout this experience.

Toy Story is Pixar, Monsters Inc. is Pixar. Wouldn't it be natural for this game, which is explicitly a Tribute game, to reference the other Pixar-themed game? And the most distinctive aspect of that game, in my book, was the two scum factions.

If this is all true, then we're chasing ghosts here. There would be no third member. The other mafia can simply put some arbitrary ideas out there because we're not looking for them anyway.

Now, what speaks against this is the labeling of mafia as "Human Children", because I have no idea what another corresponding scum faction would look like. Then again, I haven't seen Monsters Inc.

[Axxle]

Maybe? In which case we should be looking for sk type behavior. But I think we should worry about that after there's only one kill tonight.

[AndrewisFTTW]

It all depends on who we lynch/night kills.

[faust]

It all depends on who we lynch/night kills.

What's that supposed to mean?

[Axxle]

It all depends on who we lynch/night kills.

What's that supposed to mean?

Probably the same thing I said?

[faust]

Maybe. Discussion has died down a little. I'm okay with going after WW's and Teproc's partner today; if there is one, we need to catch him, if there isn't, well, we'll get only one night kill and tomorrow there will still be 5 of us left. And we might even score a lucky shot on another scum.

So if that's what we're doing, DeDe and Andrew are off the table for me. Arch is as well. I could switch to mail-mi, but right now I like my vote on Axxle better.

[Axxle]

So if that's what we're doing, DeDe and Andrew are off the table for me. Arch is as well. I could switch to mail-mi, but right now I like my vote on Axxle better.

Same for me, but shuffling faust, mail-mi, Axxle around a bit. (I could switch to faust, but right now I like my vote on mail-mi better.)

I don't like DD's nor Arch's votes for me, but that's probably just omgus rather than a scumtell.

[Axxle]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

[Axxle]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

@Andrew too.

[mail-mi]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

EFHW is an IC...

[Axxle]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

EFHW is an IC...

That's my point. Being "too town" is not a scumtell.

[Archetype]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

Mafia are aware of one another and so don't (generally) throw suspicion on one another. They want to throw suspicion onto Town so that they can be lynched. You coming under very little suspicion isn't the whole reason for my vote on you - some POE to you/mail-mi, the WW vote, that, and going after mail-mi all contribute.

[Axxle]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

I don't think this interaction comes from scumbuddies.

[Axxle]

Why would I not switch to Andrew at the end of Day 3 if I was scum?

[Axxle]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

Mafia are aware of one another and so don't (generally) throw suspicion on one another. They want to throw suspicion onto Town so that they can be lynched. You coming under very little suspicion isn't the whole reason for my vote on you - some POE to you/mail-mi, the WW vote, that, and going after mail-mi all contribute.

Also you say PoE.  Why isn't Andrew, faust, or DD mafia? I know I have non-mafia reads on some of these but I want to hear your reasons.

[faust]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

I don't think this interaction comes from scumbuddies.

I disagree.

[faust]

Why would I not switch to Andrew at the end of Day 3 if I was scum?

Why would you not switch to Andrew at the end of Day 3 if you were town?

[Axxle]

Why would I not switch to Andrew at the end of Day 3 if I was scum?

Why would you not switch to Andrew at the end of Day 3 if you were town?

Because I trusted someone to switch to mailmi

[Axxle]

Ok, I see what you mean. Not sure what I would have done as scum there.

We have about 60 hours left, keep an eye on the deadline, other peoples!

[faust]

Andrew, if you change your vote to Archetype, then we can have Archetype investigate mail-mi tonight. That would be kind of nice.

[EFHW]

Maybe? In which case we should be looking for sk type behavior. But I think we should worry about that after there's only one kill tonight.

Where have you guys been?  I and others have been talking about a 2nd faction for awhile now.  It's been clear from the start of the day that the two main wagons - Andrew and mail-mi - could not be partners for WW and Teproc.  True, 2 kills tonight would tell us there was a 3rd child and probable SK, but it is hardly news that a second faction is just as likely.

[EFHW]

The question is why they didn't kill EFHW who's actually around. I don't think Andrew would do this, EFHW has a big scumread on him. mail-mi probably would take the risk, EFHW only voted for him as a last resort and has called him town for a long time. She also felt DD was town or at least wasn't feeling his wagon.

This along with everything else just screams mail-mi.

They probably didn't kill me b/c they assumed I was more likely to be protected, since, like you say, I am around.

This doesn't scream mail-mi at all.  I don't know if you are scum, but I think I will not oppose your wagon.

[EFHW]

Why would I not switch to Andrew at the end of Day 3 if I was scum?

If he was your partner, for example.

[EFHW]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

I don't think this interaction comes from scumbuddies.

Why not?  It's not like you would have let WW know your intention ahead of time.  This could easily come from scumbuddies.  Your posts seem very self-serving.

[EFHW]

mail-mi: He had a short vote on WW for no good reason, but nothing really became of this. I thought of it in the same boat as Teproc vote on WW. Then I saw Teproc's read on mail-mi and it was "slight scum" just like he had on WW. I was getting more convinced until I went back and reread Teproc's and WW's wagon on mail-mi and realized how close it got to lynching him and it only didn't because.... ADk... and Andrew switched. I don't think Teproc and WW would have risked this, even if they were trying to construct aggression and suspicion on each other so people didn't think they were partners.

That leaves me with only a SK read on him, but I feel much more towny after rereading D1. Unvote.

AndrewisFTTW: I saw that Teproc had a fight with Andrew that was pretty lengthy. This is very different than the interactions Teproc was having with WW. It gave me a very town read because this fight actually felt real and it didn't go away, at nausia. This fight, I thought, was really similar to the fight between ADK and WW in D1 regarding WW's fake slip in the QT. It gave me a bit more of a town read on Andrew.

Just to be clear, you now agree that mail-mi is unlikely to be mafia.

We have already determined that Andrew is also not mafia.  So his interactions with WW and Teproc are not relevant.  He could still be SK or another faction, and the fact that he had an argument with mafia doesn't say anything about towniness.

[EFHW]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

EFHW is an IC...

That's my point. Being "too town" is not a scumtell.

Being confirmed town rules out scumtells.  My not being suspected is not the same thing as you not being suspected.

[EFHW]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

I should probably also say claiming this limits it's usefulness by a bit.

Vote:mail-mi btw.

yes, claim.  I think we are ready for some clearing up.

I'm a X-shot Timid Sensor. Each night, as long as someone was lynched the previous day, I can ask one of two questions to ashersky: "Were there scum on the wagon?"/"Were there scum off the wagon?". He'll reply with a yes/no answer. I will not be claiming how many shots I possess.

Pretty weak at actually finding scum. Especially in a game this large. So once the ICs were named, instead, I decided to try and use it to clear people. I'd try to end the day with my votes wherever

N1: did nothing. I didn't plan on doing anything either since I was likely to get a "yes" answer and 1 guaranteed scum out of 7 really means nothing .
N2: I used my power. That's why my vote is weird here. However, ashersky informed me that I had missed the submission deadline. Which really, really, really sucks. Like, potentially-game-losing sucks.
N3: no one got lynched. If EFHW voted for mail-mi or voted for Andrew, I'd use my power wherever there was 2 guaranteed Town (me/EFHW or chairs/EFHW). That's another reason why I didn't want to move to Andrew.

That's also why why reads list is so weird and weak. I was hoping to use my power to get some concrete evidence. It's also why I'm so frustrated that I'm about to be lynched without getting to use my power AND dropping the ball night 2.

Why would your vote have an effect on your power?  Can you only ask about the wagon you were on?  Also, by my records you didn't vote Day 2.  Did I miss something?

Still would like answers to these questions.

[Axxle]

Maybe? In which case we should be looking for sk type behavior. But I think we should worry about that after there's only one kill tonight.

Where have you guys been?  I and others have been talking about a 2nd faction for awhile now.  It's been clear from the start of the day that the two main wagons - Andrew and mail-mi - could not be partners for WW and Teproc.  True, 2 kills tonight would tell us there was a 3rd child and probable SK, but it is hardly news that a second faction is just as likely.

I have asked you why mailmi can't be a partner and you have not said.

[Axxle]

I think he's had plenty of time to post. Feel free to hammer

I don't get it.  That's 1 vote on Arch?

I don't think this interaction comes from scumbuddies.

Why not?  It's not like you would have let WW know your intention ahead of time.  This could easily come from scumbuddies.  Your posts seem very self-serving.

You mean these recent ones? Yeah, I'm at l1!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sorry I've been absent but I've been running around everywhere the past couple days and today is just as crazy. I think I can catch up late tonight.

[EFHW]

Maybe? In which case we should be looking for sk type behavior. But I think we should worry about that after there's only one kill tonight.

Where have you guys been?  I and others have been talking about a 2nd faction for awhile now.  It's been clear from the start of the day that the two main wagons - Andrew and mail-mi - could not be partners for WW and Teproc.  True, 2 kills tonight would tell us there was a 3rd child and probable SK, but it is hardly news that a second faction is just as likely.

I have asked you why mailmi can't be a partner and you have not said.

We had this discussion.  Remember I said Teproc could have short-circuited the mail-mi wagon by simply bringing up the prize issue, and you said "hm" and unvoted?  It also seemed clear to me that Teproc was equally happy for either mail-mi or joth to be lynched.  Teproc's voting that day went like this:  WW, joth,  unvote, joth, mail-mi L1, joth L-1.  He could have very credibly have said he thought joth was scum and stayed off the mail-mi wagon altogether, and instead he put him to L-1.

[Archetype]

ANYONE WHO QUICKHAMMERS ME FOLLOWING THIS POST IS SCUM.

Ok. I'm thinking about claiming. Should I, EFHW? It may clear up a few things.

I should probably also say claiming this limits it's usefulness by a bit.

Vote:mail-mi btw.

yes, claim.  I think we are ready for some clearing up.

I'm a X-shot Timid Sensor. Each night, as long as someone was lynched the previous day, I can ask one of two questions to ashersky: "Were there scum on the wagon?"/"Were there scum off the wagon?". He'll reply with a yes/no answer. I will not be claiming how many shots I possess.

Pretty weak at actually finding scum. Especially in a game this large. So once the ICs were named, instead, I decided to try and use it to clear people. I'd try to end the day with my votes wherever

N1: did nothing. I didn't plan on doing anything either since I was likely to get a "yes" answer and 1 guaranteed scum out of 7 really means nothing .
N2: I used my power. That's why my vote is weird here. However, ashersky informed me that I had missed the submission deadline. Which really, really, really sucks. Like, potentially-game-losing sucks.
N3: no one got lynched. If EFHW voted for mail-mi or voted for Andrew, I'd use my power wherever there was 2 guaranteed Town (me/EFHW or chairs/EFHW). That's another reason why I didn't want to move to Andrew.

That's also why why reads list is so weird and weak. I was hoping to use my power to get some concrete evidence. It's also why I'm so frustrated that I'm about to be lynched without getting to use my power AND dropping the ball night 2.

Why would your vote have an effect on your power?  Can you only ask about the wagon you were on?  Also, by my records you didn't vote Day 2.  Did I miss something?

Still would like answers to these questions.

Sorry, missed these.

- my vote has an effect on my power because whichever group I'm apart of has one more guaranteed Town in it. If I'm trying to clear people, I have to put my vote into the investigated group to narrow down who is scum out of the group if I get a Mafia result.
- I can ask about any wagon as long as it took place the previous day
- you're right, I didn't vote D2. Mostly because when I got online, there were already a bunch of votes on Teproc, you and chairs were off, and then he self hammered.

[Archetype]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

Mafia are aware of one another and so don't (generally) throw suspicion on one another. They want to throw suspicion onto Town so that they can be lynched. You coming under very little suspicion isn't the whole reason for my vote on you - some POE to you/mail-mi, the WW vote, that, and going after mail-mi all contribute.

Also you say PoE.  Why isn't Andrew, faust, or DD mafia? I know I have non-mafia reads on some of these but I want to hear your reasons.

I have a non-Mafia read on Andrew and Faust and a Town read on DD. DD for some stuff in our house + some other previously stated stuff. Andrew and Faust could be SK, but you could be SK or Mafia. I think mafia, but SK isn't bad either.

[Axxle]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

Mafia are aware of one another and so don't (generally) throw suspicion on one another. They want to throw suspicion onto Town so that they can be lynched. You coming under very little suspicion isn't the whole reason for my vote on you - some POE to you/mail-mi, the WW vote, that, and going after mail-mi all contribute.

Also you say PoE.  Why isn't Andrew, faust, or DD mafia? I know I have non-mafia reads on some of these but I want to hear your reasons.

I have a non-Mafia read on Andrew and Faust and a Town read on DD. DD for some stuff in our house + some other previously stated stuff. Andrew and Faust could be SK, but you could be SK or Mafia. I think mafia, but SK isn't bad either.

I want to hear your reasons

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

Mafia are aware of one another and so don't (generally) throw suspicion on one another. They want to throw suspicion onto Town so that they can be lynched. You coming under very little suspicion isn't the whole reason for my vote on you - some POE to you/mail-mi, the WW vote, that, and going after mail-mi all contribute.

Also you say PoE.  Why isn't Andrew, faust, or DD mafia? I know I have non-mafia reads on some of these but I want to hear your reasons.

I have a non-Mafia read on Andrew and Faust and a Town read on DD. DD for some stuff in our house + some other previously stated stuff. Andrew and Faust could be SK, but you could be SK or Mafia. I think mafia, but SK isn't bad either.

How is Axxle likely to be mafia? And mafia and SK are two completely different things. You can't just say "you're probably mafia but if not you're the SK."

[Axxle]

Maybe? In which case we should be looking for sk type behavior. But I think we should worry about that after there's only one kill tonight.

Where have you guys been?  I and others have been talking about a 2nd faction for awhile now.  It's been clear from the start of the day that the two main wagons - Andrew and mail-mi - could not be partners for WW and Teproc.  True, 2 kills tonight would tell us there was a 3rd child and probable SK, but it is hardly news that a second faction is just as likely.

I have asked you why mailmi can't be a partner and you have not said.

We had this discussion.  Remember I said Teproc could have short-circuited the mail-mi wagon by simply bringing up the prize issue, and you said "hm" and unvoted?  It also seemed clear to me that Teproc was equally happy for either mail-mi or joth to be lynched.  Teproc's voting that day went like this:  WW, joth,  unvote, joth, mail-mi L1, joth L-1.  He could have very credibly have said he thought joth was scum and stayed off the mail-mi wagon altogether, and instead he put him to L-1.

I thought it was enough at the time, but at the start of the game I think mafia is more willing to bus their partners than later on.

[EFHW]

Looking at flavor, there are two ways people have died.  Being contaminated by a human child, and being tossed through a door.  Is there someone who tosses people through doors in the movies??

From this, I think we can be confident that:
-- N1 yuma was double targeted
-- N2 ADK was killed by WW (and X?) and Robz was killed by the other nk-capable person or persons, we'll call him/them "Y,Z?"
-- N3 chairs was killed by WW,X? and WW was killed by Y,Z?.

Since Y,Z? has shot three times, and every night, I think we can also rule out a town vig, just in case anyone was still considering that. 

I'm still surprised at the choice of ADK for the human child nk.  His accusation of WW was pretty weak and wasn't much of a threat to WW.  He had already said all there was to say about it.  I had thought it was a way to set WW up, but since WW killed him, I'm wondering why that choice, since it made him look bad.  It also means WW,X? didn't try to kill Robz, who was a real danger to them.  It suggests there may have some kind of target switching by Y,Z?. 

Andrew's conviction that WW was scum suggests he may have been one of Y,Z?.  DD and Axxle also voted for WW on Day 3, so they could also have suspected and nk'd him.  It also makes sense that Y,Z? would be someone who suspected WW b/c they would have worried about being killed by WW, and therefore redirected his nk.  Andrew would have been the most worried of anyone.

[EFHW]

Scratch that last part.  Andrew didn't voice suspicions until Day 3.  Sorry.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Now that I think about it, WW was the perfect NK for a SK so that suspicion would be immediately cast on me after that long fight I had with WW. I don't think whoever killed him had to think about it too much or even had to have had a scum read on WW beforehand as it deflects suspicion quite well.

[EFHW]

Another hole in my theory - WW was a nexus, so redirecting would not have affected him, unless it was odd-night or something like that.  I still don't understand why he would have targeted ADK when there were 2 IC and a cop to target instead.

[EFHW]

Tomorrow I'll try to find time to look at the "Andrew and mail-mi can't both be town" theory again.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So WW, at the risk of being made to look like even more of an asshole than I already look like, how come you didn't say anything like this when I was being harassed by ash in WoT? You even referenced ash here when you said you didn't know if this was just my playstyle. I didn't take any of what ash said personally because I knew it was part of the game, but you were scum partners with him and knew what he was up to so why did you let him take it that far? Do you see this as any different?

I'm quite certain that nothing useful will come out of following this road any further.

This still bothers me as I was hoping to get answers to my questions because I think they were important questions from a scumhunting perspective. Basically what I was saying was in WoT, ash jumped on me and never let go. WW was his scum partner and never suggested that ash had done anything wrong, even after the game. In this game, WW effectively killed my argument and nearly got me lynched by saying he was offended and suggesting that I was violating the civility pledge. I wanted to investigate this further but especially after faust's comment, I decided I better not. I would really like to discuss this further after the game but for now, faust why did you feel compelled to write this comment and stop all discussion on this topic? Did you think I was taking things too far and violating the civility pledge? Because if not I don't see a reason why we shouldn't have a discussion on anything that seems important. At that point it seemed like WW was completely off the table as a lynch so I could see a scum partner defending WW and pushing for my lynch without much fear of repercussion.

[Archetype]

Archetype, how is not being suspected a scumtell? EFHW wasn't suspected, is she scum?

Mafia are aware of one another and so don't (generally) throw suspicion on one another. They want to throw suspicion onto Town so that they can be lynched. You coming under very little suspicion isn't the whole reason for my vote on you - some POE to you/mail-mi, the WW vote, that, and going after mail-mi all contribute.

Also you say PoE.  Why isn't Andrew, faust, or DD mafia? I know I have non-mafia reads on some of these but I want to hear your reasons.

I have a non-Mafia read on Andrew and Faust and a Town read on DD. DD for some stuff in our house + some other previously stated stuff. Andrew and Faust could be SK, but you could be SK or Mafia. I think mafia, but SK isn't bad either.

How is Axxle likely to be mafia? And mafia and SK are two completely different things. You can't just say "you're probably mafia but if not you're the SK."

I have a scumread on Axxle. Mafia and SK are both scum and I think it's likely that he could be either.

[Archetype]

Looking at flavor, there are two ways people have died.  Being contaminated by a human child, and being tossed through a door.  Is there someone who tosses people through doors in the movies??

From this, I think we can be confident that:
-- N1 yuma was double targeted
-- N2 ADK was killed by WW (and X?) and Robz was killed by the other nk-capable person or persons, we'll call him/them "Y,Z?"
-- N3 chairs was killed by WW,X? and WW was killed by Y,Z?.

Since Y,Z? has shot three times, and every night, I think we can also rule out a town vig, just in case anyone was still considering that. 

I'm still surprised at the choice of ADK for the human child nk.  His accusation of WW was pretty weak and wasn't much of a threat to WW.  He had already said all there was to say about it.  I had thought it was a way to set WW up, but since WW killed him, I'm wondering why that choice, since it made him look bad.  It also means WW,X? didn't try to kill Robz, who was a real danger to them.  It suggests there may have some kind of target switching by Y,Z?. 

Andrew's conviction that WW was scum suggests he may have been one of Y,Z?.  DD and Axxle also voted for WW on Day 3, so they could also have suspected and nk'd him.  It also makes sense that Y,Z? would be someone who suspected WW b/c they would have worried about being killed by WW, and therefore redirected his nk.  Andrew would have been the most worried of anyone.

Something else I wonder is: why wasn't yuma Janitored N1?

[Axxle]

Arch! I need reasons for your reeeeeeeaaaaads!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Archetype]

To reply to Axxle...

DeDe has both Teproc and WW as town reads. Not sure if scum would do that.

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

D2 doesn't give much, but I think DeDe's and Andrew's reactions to Robz' claim were on the scummier side.

D3, there's this: DeDe apparently forgetting that there is a Janitor. I think it's genuine, which would mean that DeDe is not Teproc's partner. Then, DeDe has his turn on WW, which at the time I found scummy, but knowing that WW is scum, it looks better.
ad to choose someone for the WW kill, it would likely be Andrew, but then again, would SK!Andrew makes such an obvious move?

I agree with the majority of this by Faust. I disagree with the "putting both Teproc and WW as Townreads means he's not their partner". This is DD's 2nd (?) game and I could see him putting them both as Townreads as newbie scum.

There's also a couple of QT things that I will not be disclosing (unless EFHW asks me to).

PPE: Axxle asking for this post

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.7:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

It'd be really helpful if you said before you know, die

[Archetype]

It'd be really helpful if you said before you know, die

Eh, alright. I should be asleep, but I'll be brief.

I recieved the Decomissed Door. It's a Day QT maker. I choose someone, and a Daychat QT is opened for the two of us. I chose chairs because he is an IC and out of him and EFHW was the most likely to not be killed since he was lurking...guess I was wrong there.

DD voted to give it to ADK. ADK voted to give it to himself. I voted for myself. WW voted for me. WW and DD refused to vote for one another. I even let everyone know that I'd vote for DD if I couldn't vote for myself. But instead of voting for me like I would expect scum!DD, he voted for ADK to have it and make it be out of the game forever.

Plus on the google maps search thing he worked really hard while WW (and me, and ADK...) totally slacked off. I would expect WW to help his partner instead of just sitting back.

Actually, thinking about this more, WW sitting just sitting back implicates mail-mi over Axxle.

[Axxle]

Thanks, that pretty much confirms you're town in my eyes

[Axxle]

Tomorrow I'll try to find time to look at the "Andrew and mail-mi can't both be town" theory again.

Have you considered why you aren't dead yet?

[faust]

So WW, at the risk of being made to look like even more of an asshole than I already look like, how come you didn't say anything like this when I was being harassed by ash in WoT? You even referenced ash here when you said you didn't know if this was just my playstyle. I didn't take any of what ash said personally because I knew it was part of the game, but you were scum partners with him and knew what he was up to so why did you let him take it that far? Do you see this as any different?

I'm quite certain that nothing useful will come out of following this road any further.

This still bothers me as I was hoping to get answers to my questions because I think they were important questions from a scumhunting perspective. Basically what I was saying was in WoT, ash jumped on me and never let go. WW was his scum partner and never suggested that ash had done anything wrong, even after the game. In this game, WW effectively killed my argument and nearly got me lynched by saying he was offended and suggesting that I was violating the civility pledge. I wanted to investigate this further but especially after faust's comment, I decided I better not. I would really like to discuss this further after the game but for now, faust why did you feel compelled to write this comment and stop all discussion on this topic? Did you think I was taking things too far and violating the civility pledge? Because if not I don't see a reason why we shouldn't have a discussion on anything that seems important. At that point it seemed like WW was completely off the table as a lynch so I could see a scum partner defending WW and pushing for my lynch without much fear of repercussion.

I have been in games that scratched the borders of the civility plegde. It wasn't fun. This seemed to be going in the same direction. I felt that you and WW having an extensive fight that most of the other players couldn't follow anyway (because it's talk about another game that not everyone was in) wasn't the most useful way to spend our day.

[ashersky]

Congratulations to PNK, who won the last Scare Game!  They receive Archie the Scare Pig!!!

PNK members, in your first post in your QT when night begins, post your vote for who in your house gets the prize!

[faust]

So we won the prize, huh? EFHW, I think you should decide who of us gets to use it.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Did you think I was going too far? Because if not I don't think "nobody could follow along" is a good reason to stop a discussion.

[faust]

Did you think I was going too far? Because if not I don't think "nobody could follow along" is a good reason to stop a discussion.

I think it is. Discussions are there so we, as town, can get a read on someone. That won't be possible if like half the town doesn't no what you're talking about.

I didn't think you were going too far, but the tone was already shifting into a direction where things start getting unpleasant.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I disagree that nobody knew what we were talking about and even if that was true, it's easy to simplify it in such a way so as to make sure everyone understands.

Anyway, the  I'm trying to make is that you were pulling WW out of the fire. This doesn't mean much right  but it may be something to keep in mind for tomorrow.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm pretty convinced Axxle is town so I'm much more comfortable voting mail-mi.

vote: mail-mi

[EFHW]

So we won the prize, huh? EFHW, I think you should decide who of us gets to use it.

Do you know what it does?

[Axxle]

We only know what's been posted in thread.

[EFHW]

Tomorrow I'll try to find time to look at the "Andrew and mail-mi can't both be town" theory again.

Have you considered why you aren't dead yet?

I said before that I think chairs was chosen as less likely to be protected b/c he doesn't participate very actively.  yuma and Robz were also high priority targets.  I don't understand ADK as a choice over me or chairs or Robz.  I suppose it's possible I was protected by someone with the power to redirect kills.

What were you thinking? 

[Axxle]

I'm thinking that anyone thinking that we have protection this game is not giving it enough thought.

[Axxle]

The uphill battle mafia would have to face with protection, two ICs, Robz's role, and whatever else would be ridiculous.

[EFHW]

Did you think I was going too far? Because if not I don't think "nobody could follow along" is a good reason to stop a discussion.

I didn't think you went too far.  I've read all your posts a couple times now.  You were both civil.  I think WW played up the insulting angle to fend you off.  He also distorted the "deliberated before posting" angle.  More to say later

[EFHW]

The uphill battle mafia would have to face with protection, two ICs, Robz's role, and whatever else would be ridiculous.

So why am I alive then?  Maybe you think my reads are wrong?

[Axxle]

The uphill battle mafia would have to face with protection, two ICs, Robz's role, and whatever else would be ridiculous.

So why am I alive then?  Maybe you think my reads are wrong?

thats what I'm getting at

[EFHW]

The uphill battle mafia would have to face with protection, two ICs, Robz's role, and whatever else would be ridiculous.

So why am I alive then?  Maybe you think my reads are wrong?

thats what I'm getting at

Why not just say that instead of hinting around?  So spell out your theory.

[Axxle]

Kills:
1.  yuma, Town Desperado - Killed on Night 1.
2.  Robz888, 3-Shot Role Cop and Coroner - Killed on Night 2.
13.  ADK, a Vanilla Monster - Killed on Night 2.
3.  chairs - James P. Sullivan, the Innocent Mason - Killed on Night 3.
5. witherweaver, Human Child Nexus - Killed on Night 3.

yuma expressed scumreads on Andrew, faust and mailmi. Any of them are more likely to be the killer. *Maybe* WW but he was clearly losing the WW read by the end of the day.

Robz is super likely to be a mafia kill, he had a guilty on one of their own so they probably assumed he was a cop. Nothing to really read into here.

ADK expressed a huge scumread on mail-mi, but if Robz was killed by mafia and mail-mi is mafia then mail-mi probably didn't kill ADK. ADK had minor confusion about Andrew at the end of the day. He also had scumreads on DD and Archetype in his lists way back in day 1. Mmmm... this is harder to discern.

WW was clearly an SK kill. I'll read into this later.

chairs was a mafia kill. They're starting to kill obv town and not worry too much about the SK. The question is why they didn't kill EFHW who's actually around. I don't think Andrew would do this, EFHW has a big scumread on him. mail-mi probably would take the risk, EFHW only voted for him as a last resort and has called him town for a long time. She also felt DD was town or at least wasn't feeling his wagon.

This along with everything else just screams mail-mi.

[Axxle]

Specifically the chair paragraph.

Some of the other analysis is wrong because I didn't take flavor into account.

[Axxle]

Andrew, you should start using this gif in games:

[EFHW]

Something else I wonder is: why wasn't yuma Janitored N1?

Maybe b/c he was double killed and janitor couldn't clean up another faction's kill.  Or it was X-shot and he was saving it for later.

[EFHW]

chairs was a mafia kill. They're starting to kill obv town and not worry too much about the SK. The question is why they didn't kill EFHW who's actually around. I don't think Andrew would do this, EFHW has a big scumread on him. mail-mi probably would take the risk, EFHW only voted for him as a last resort and has called him town for a long time. She also felt DD was town or at least wasn't feeling his wagon.

This along with everything else just screams mail-mi.

I assume by mafia you mean human child.  If my "mail-mi and Andrew can't both be town" is correct, they had to kill me or chairs so as not to narrow down the poe further.  If so, that would mean a 3 person human child team and an SK.  I'm going to work through that now.

[EFHW]

Ok, so far what I see is that Axxle, faust, Archetype and WW all calmly took off knowing that the wagons were tied at 4-4.

2 questions: 

1. Would they have done this if their partner was one of the wagons?
2. Would an SK be comfortable to assume someone would make sure there was a lynch, or would they stick around to see to it themselves?

DD left with them tied at 3-3.  So he is either partners with Andrew or genuinely saw him as town.  Chairs didn't vote. I thought Andrew was scum and mail-mi was town.  Andrew and mail-mi both wanted to live.

I'm interested in opinions about these questions.

[EFHW]

Is there someone who tosses people through doors in the movies??

Can anyone answer this?

[Axxle]

Is there someone who tosses people through doors in the movies??

Can anyone answer this?

Mmm... kind of? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsters,_Inc.#Plot

Waternoose exiles Mike/Sully, Randall tries pushing them through doors too, and they do work together. I still think that it's a lot safer to assume another child and an SK than a second scumteam though.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.8:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (2):  Axxle, Andrew

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

Can we get a prod for DD?

[ashersky]

Can we get a prod for DD?

Done.

[Axxle]

Updated

Kills:
1.  yuma, Town Desperado - Killed on Night 1. by Children and
2.  Robz888, 3-Shot Role Cop and Coroner - Killed on Night 2. by
13.  ADK, a Vanilla Monster - Killed on Night 2. by Children
3.  chairs - James P. Sullivan, the Innocent Mason - Killed on Night 3. by Children
5. witherweaver, Human Child Nexus - Killed on Night 3. by

yuma expressed scumreads on Andrew, faust and mailmi. Any of them are more likely to be the killer. *Maybe* WW but he was clearly losing the WW read by the end of the day. He had me as his strongest town read, I would not kill this guy.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Coming home. I'll post then. Sorry busy with new job and graduation

[Axxle]

Congrats!

[Delirious Deleuze]

Congrats!

Thanks! I'm going back and rereading right now, starting with the D2+ posts I've stopped at!

[Delirious Deleuze]

General
I have to go to bed because I’m driving back for graduation tomorrow (I graduated early and moved away), so this is going to be more of a skim than the last big post I did.
First, EFHW, I don’t know why you’re completely ruling Andrew out. He’s not my lynch candidate, but I don’t think we should totally rule him out as a possible scum.

Axxle

Still confident here.

D2: His first post in this day was not directed at Teproc and the vote at all, but specifically at prize giving. This seems like a scum way to avoid voting for a partner. Then again, rather than address Then he slips up and doesn’t realize that the Desperado PR was a day power, even thought he read and posted the wiki….

With the interaction with him and Teproc over the info he dropped from his QT, it seems like a really forced conversation, just like Teproc’s interaction with WW.

The caveat, WW claims Teproc is scum in his attack over axxle. It feels really forced into making us not expect them of being scum, then Teproc quickly says he feels Axxel is most likely town.

WW then defends Axxel by defending his slip? Why would WW defend a town player people wanted to lynch?

Axxel’s fight with witherweaver over voting also seems super fake and weird, with Axxel shouting NO. And then he tells us not to listen to ICs as much, like they’re right.

D3: Randomly votes for Arch? Because he was trying to trick him into claiming something… or responding… or? What? This play seems fake. And WW breaking it does too.

He was accusing Arch for lurking, then instantly switched his vote to mail-mi after a single question by Arch.

Mail-Mi

D2-3: Null, not much activity, but fairly a bored towny when he did post.

D4: His posts seemed short, and not super frequent, but I think they shed a little light on each conversation in a good way for town.

Andrew
D2: I didn’t see anything special that shifted my thoughts on him. He was generally towny to me.

D3: The fight between WW and Andrew seemed pretty heated, real, and on topic. This generally isn’t how scum fake fight. It’s giving me a town feel. It seems just like the fight I had with WW when he got me lynched in X-Men.

D4: Same as Mail-mi




Yeah, so I'm pretty confident that Axxel's scum. Even after his answers, I'm not going to sit and re-argue what I said, he reads scummy and you can look at my reasons.

[faust]

Wow, DeDe's reasoning for his Axxle vote is really weak. Totally reads as though he wants to find Axxle scummy, so he twists everything into a scum narrative. Not sure what that says about his alignment, usually forced reads come from scum. But we clearly have two scum factions, so each of them can have a genuine read on the other. Which in turn means, if DeDe's Axxle read really is forced, then he would have to be Teproc's and WW's partner. I need to look again at why I ruled DeDe out as their partner.

[faust]

Okay, my reasons to believe DeDe is not scum partner are good. Even though I find his above post on the scummy side, I'm not getting swayed just yet.

[faust]

Ok, so far what I see is that Axxle, faust, Archetype and WW all calmly took off knowing that the wagons were tied at 4-4.

2 questions: 

1. Would they have done this if their partner was one of the wagons?
2. Would an SK be comfortable to assume someone would make sure there was a lynch, or would they stick around to see to it themselves?

DD left with them tied at 3-3.  So he is either partners with Andrew or genuinely saw him as town.  Chairs didn't vote. I thought Andrew was scum and mail-mi was town.  Andrew and mail-mi both wanted to live.

I'm interested in opinions about these questions.

1. On one hand, they of course want to prevent their partner's lynch. But if they already were on the other wagon, then what more could they have done? Defending their partner at this juncture would be very dangerous. I can imagine them just leaving and hoping for the best. But we can probably rule out that anyone who left was voting for their partner.

2. As someone who misses deadlines on a regular basis due to time zone differences, I have grown fairly confident in town's ability to push a lynch through. If I felt I could safely assume not to be lynched, I would be fine with leaving as a SK.

[Axxle]

You mean DD? I didn't realize he was suspecting Faust, maybe because DD is just lurking so much. I'll reread again but lurking is another strike for DD. The way it looks to me is new scum not really sure what to post, but when he does post it's empty and lacking.

I really doubt scum would copy their partner like this:

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

Sigh...

Day Vigilante.

yuma - Town-y. I think the claim was an interesting thing, and not the smartest if he was being honest, but not counterproductive for town. I'm afraid of a scum NK but ADK pointed out they'll hit ICs first.

What did yuma claim?

.......

I also don't think that he would unvote joth, while still strongly saying he'd revote, while also not being around to make sure the mislynch happens at the end of the day. I don't see any scum motivation there.

I found my case. I think I assumed mailmi was scum here when i made it.

Hmm.

Unvote

[Axxle]

Vote mailmi

Eh, my townread on DD isn't as strong as it was, maybe null now, but I still think mailmi's scum.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.9:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (2):  Andrew, Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[faust]

So we won the prize, huh? EFHW, I think you should decide who of us gets to use it.

Do you know what it does?

No. But I suppose it's somehow beneficial to us. It's certainly bad if it falls into scum hands.

[EFHW]

First, EFHW, I don’t know why you’re completely ruling Andrew out. He’s not my lynch candidate, but I don’t think we should totally rule him out as a possible scum.

completely confused.  You said you didn't switch wagons Day 3 b/c you were confident Andrew was town.  I also have certainly not ruled him out.  I'm voting him, after all!

[EFHW]

I think we should choose between Andrew and mail-mi today, and this time really do it.  We will get the most information that way.  We have until 7.  Anyone not on one of those two, please switch to your choice.

[EFHW]

Currently I think Axxle should take the prize.  Let's go with that unless I say differently before the day ends.

[EFHW]

Also, please say if you will be here at deadline.  I currently have plans and may not be able to be here, though I will try.

[Axxle]

I'm working but should be on barring a last minute meeting or something

[EFHW]

Here is my reasoning for limiting the lynch choices to Andrew or mail-mi. 

If we have a three person child team and an SK there are 4 possibilities: 

1.  Both children were on the same wagon and one of them was the other wagon.  This points to mail-mi as WW's partner.  50% chance of hitting scum.

2.  The wagons were both town and everyone, including the SK, thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  Personally, I think the SK would be more careful, but I could see it happening. I also think one of the human children would have tried to ensure a lynch by switching.  faust, WW and Archetype were all around near the deadline and could have done that but didn't.  Axxle and DD were not around.  0% chance of hitting scum.

3.  The wagons were SK and town and everyone thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  This also depends on the human children not ensuring there was a lynch.  50% chance of hitting scum

4.  The wagons were SK and human child.  100% chance of hitting scum

#2 depends on 3 scum neglecting to make sure there was a lynch, and that just seems unlikely. 

If we have a 2 person second faction then these are the possibilities:

1.  Both wagons were on the second faction (unlikely, but gives us 100% chance hitting scum)

2.  Both wagons were town - here again there were three people (WW and the other faction) who would have wanted to prevent a no lynch and none of them did. 0% chance hitting scum

3.  One wagon was on the second faction, the other on town.  This means one of mail-mi and Andrew would be scum, the other would be unable to switch wagons, and everyone else thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  50% chance of hitting scum.

All this reasoning depends on the assumption that given 3 scum and two town wagons, one of the 3 would have ensured there was a lynch.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'll be here but if it's me or mail-mi I guess it doesn't matter.

[EFHW]

All this reasoning depends on the assumption that given 3 scum and two town wagons, one of the 3 would have ensured there was a lynch.

If this assumption is wrong and both Andrew and mail-mi are town, then 2 of faust, DD, and Axxle are scum.  Maybe Archetype, but according to him he was on at 6:50.  Would scum!Archetype have switched to the other town wagon?

[faust]

Sorry EFHW, I just don't see why scum has any more incentive to get a lynch through than town has. My vote stays on Axxle. Will check back in before the deadline to get a lynch though.

[mail-mi]

I think we should choose between Andrew and mail-mi today, and this time really do it.  We will get the most information that way.  We have until 7.  Anyone not on one of those two, please switch to your choice.

Great. I'll stay on Andrew. Also, I'm in Spain so that's why I'm not posting too much at the moment.

[Axxle]

When there's an SK or another scumteam? I'd do my best to lynch as often as possible as scum.

[Axxle]

I think we should choose between Andrew and mail-mi today, and this time really do it.  We will get the most information that way.  We have until 7.  Anyone not on one of those two, please switch to your choice.

Great. I'll stay on Andrew. Also, I'm in Spain so that's why I'm not posting too much at the moment.

How's the rain in Spain?

[faust]

When there's an SK or another scumteam? I'd do my best to lynch as often as possible as scum.

But you'd also do your best to lynch as often as possible as town, right?

[faust]

Not checking in for the next 2 hours or so. Not sure if I can make it back before deadline.

[Axxle]

When there's an SK or another scumteam? I'd do my best to lynch as often as possible as scum.

But you'd also do your best to lynch as often as possible as town, right?

I wouldn't lynch someone I had a strong townread on.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone

Here is my reasoning for limiting the lynch choices to Andrew or mail-mi. 

If we have a three person child team and an SK there are 4 possibilities: 

1.  Both children were on the same wagon and one of them was the other wagon.  This points to mail-mi as WW's partner.  50% chance of hitting scum.

2.  The wagons were both town and everyone, including the SK, thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  Personally, I think the SK would be more careful, but I could see it happening. I also think one of the human children would have tried to ensure a lynch by switching.  faust, WW and Archetype were all around near the deadline and could have done that but didn't.  Axxle and DD were not around.  0% chance of hitting scum.

3.  The wagons were SK and town and everyone thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  This also depends on the human children not ensuring there was a lynch.  50% chance of hitting scum

4.  The wagons were SK and human child.  100% chance of hitting scum

#2 depends on 3 scum neglecting to make sure there was a lynch, and that just seems unlikely. 

If we have a 2 person second faction then these are the possibilities:

1.  Both wagons were on the second faction (unlikely, but gives us 100% chance hitting scum)

2.  Both wagons were town - here again there were three people (WW and the other faction) who would have wanted to prevent a no lynch and none of them did. 0% chance hitting scum

3.  One wagon was on the second faction, the other on town.  This means one of mail-mi and Andrew would be scum, the other would be unable to switch wagons, and everyone else thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  50% chance of hitting scum.

All this reasoning depends on the assumption that given 3 scum and two town wagons, one of the 3 would have ensured there was a lynch.

This is pretty good reasoning. I'm currently driving to Wisconsin for graduation, so I'll be gone because of ceramonies, etc., throughout the weekend.

I still think Axxel is scummy, but y'all are probably right that I'm reading too much into his interactions because I already thought he was scum. At the very least, I think EFHW's right that those two are the best for gaining info for town. vote: Mail-mi. I think he's scum more right now than Andrew. that's L-1.

Hope people talk this through more though and get a lynch, but talk it out and get more interactions from everybody.

Cheers.

[Axxle]

We have a little more than an hour?

[Axxle]

DD, if no one else shows up would you compromise on Andrew?

[Axxle]

"3 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic." Who's here?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hey checked from my phone again,

Yes, I'd be willing to compromise. We need a lynch today or we lose.

vote: Andrew.

[EFHW]

Ok, it looks like I'll be on.  vote count please.  Who else is here?

[EFHW]

Sorry EFHW, I just don't see why scum has any more incentive to get a lynch through than town has. My vote stays on Axxle. Will check back in before the deadline to get a lynch though.

so you are willing to no lynch again?

[EFHW]

I'll vote for either wagon.

[Axxle]

Ok, it looks like I'll be on.  vote count please.  Who else is here?

Me you DD it looks like.  Me and DD prefer mailmi, you prefer Andrew. 3 on andrew after DD's vote and 2 on mailmi.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 4.efhw:

Andrew (3):  mail-mi, EFHW, DD
Axxle (2):  archetype, faust
mail-mi (2):  Andrew, Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

faust not cooperating is scummy and he was on Andrew before.  Only matters if there is a 2 person scum team, though.

vote: mail-mi

Have to eat dinner.  Will be back before 7.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Ok, it looks like I'll be on.  vote count please.  Who else is here?

Me you DD it looks like.  Me and DD prefer mailmi, you prefer Andrew. 3 on andrew after DD's vote and 2 on mailmi.

Yep. I'd rather vote Mail-Mi if you'd go that way. I'd rather not hammer though because my presence here is shotty right now on the phone and I'm affraid I'd miss the deadline.

If EFHW can we switch because I won't be here long to hammer, then we can get a few more minutes of info

[Delirious Deleuze]

Or axxel? Can we switch, cause I can't be here to hammer and don't want to fuck this lynch

[Axxle]

Or axxel? Can we switch, cause I can't be here to hammer and don't want to fuck this lynch

hammer! I'm still on mailmi

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't see a problem with hammering right now.

[Delirious Deleuze]

No, invite, then I'll vote for mail-mi. You can hammer in like 15 minutes in case people get on and we can get more posts to analyze.

I don't want to hammer quickly and lose extra info from posts.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Unvote**

[Axxle]

unvote

[Delirious Deleuze]

Thanks!!!

vote: Mail-Mi.

[Axxle]

vote: mail-mi

[Axxle]

I'm not going to be reliably on and I really doubt we'll get anything in the last 20 minutes that means anything.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Alrighty. Cross your fingers.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Either way were going to get a lot of info right now.

Let's hope he's scum and we get more than just info.

[EFHW]

I'll probably die tonight.  Axxle use the prize wisely.  If mail-mi is town, there'll be some hard decisions.

[EFHW]

good luck!

[faust]

Bah. Don't like the way this day ended. mail-mi isn't the worst lynch, yeah... definitely not the best either.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Why? Just because he has been mislynched in the past? I think he was a good lynch.

[ashersky]

Final Day 4 Vote Count:

Andrew (1):  mail-mi
Axxle (2):  archetype, faust
mail-mi (4):  Andrew, EFHW, DD, Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

[ashersky]

mail-mi has been lynched!  He was a Vanilla Monster!

Night 4 begins now.  You have 36 hours to get night actions in.  All QTs are unlocked.  PNK, remember to post your prize winner vote right away.

[ashersky]

The next morning came at an odd hour, but the sun rises when it's most convenient sometimes.

They saw the CDA agent again, wandering around.  "Seems like your pal, Andrew, got tossed through a door last night.  Good luck finding him."

Andrew, a Vanilla Monster, was killed.

Day 5 begins!

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.1:

Not Voting (5):  EFHW, Arch, faust, DD, Axxle

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[faust]

Only one kill. So I guess we're looking at a two-player scum faction?

[faust]

Andrew's flip is soooo strange. Like, I was sure he's scum. And why would anyone kill him?

[faust]

Well, maybe I should check my messages before posting stuff. So yeah, I got the prize tonight (everyone in our QT voted for themselves, so it was decided randomly). It was a 1-shot Tracker. I tracked Axxle, he targeted Andrew.

[faust]

On the plus side, Arch is still alive, so I'm confirmed town now.

[EFHW]

On the plus side, Arch is still alive, so I'm confirmed town now.

What do you mean?

[EFHW]

DD and Axxle wee unable to come back to vote Day3. 

[faust]

On the plus side, Arch is still alive, so I'm confirmed town now.

What do you mean?

I was the only one off wagon besides mail-mi (dead) and Arch, so I figure Arch checked me.

[EFHW]

On the plus side, Arch is still alive, so I'm confirmed town now.

What do you mean?

I was the only one off wagon besides mail-mi (dead) and Arch, so I figure Arch checked me.
[/qu
Checked you how?   

[faust]

On the plus side, Arch is still alive, so I'm confirmed town now.

What do you mean?

I was the only one off wagon besides mail-mi (dead) and Arch, so I figure Arch checked me.
[/qu
Checked you how?

With his sensor thingy? He can ask "was there scum off-wagon", and then ash will answer "no".

[faust]

(quote fail)²

[EFHW]

Then why aren't you voting?

[faust]

Then why aren't you voting?

It's LyLo. I want to see if there's some sort of other explanation.

[Archetype]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

[Archetype]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

But there's also him Tracking Axxle, which supports my scumread on him earlier. Let me think about this. In the meantime, no votes please.

[EFHW]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

But there's also him Tracking Axxle, which supports my scumread on him earlier. Let me think about this. In the meantime, no votes please.

the plot thickens

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hey I'm not going to be able to post until tonight when I drive back from my home town...

But dayum. This is interesting.

Then why aren't you voting?

It's LyLo. I want to see if there's some sort of other explanation.

What's LyLo?

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

What do you mean? Like you asked if scum wasn't on the wagon? Hmmm...

This seems unblockable like tracking or cops could be...




What do you all think of this? Could it be Faust and Axxel as the team? Why would Faust out his partner, except maybe to gain sway with the town?

Or they're both scum, but one is mafia and the other is a SK and they happened to hit the same target?

[faust]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

Woah. Is there any way for scum to manipulate the outcome of your investigation?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Maybe Axxel has a PR and target Andrew? And scum also killed him? That would explain the fishy results?

Or they're both scum of some kind?

I think there is no way to manipulate Archs read... Unless it was a fake claim in which case I'm way more confused

[faust]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, Archetype would be dead.

[Archetype]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, Archetype would be dead.

Why?

[faust]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, Archetype would be dead.

Why?

... because the only logical thing would be to kill you? Why are you asking obvious stuff?

[EFHW]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, Archetype would be dead.

I'm wondering if there might be some difficulty with scum aiming their nk's.  Andrew's death doesn't make sense, and neither did ADK's.

[Axxle]

Well, maybe I should check my messages before posting stuff. So yeah, I got the prize tonight (everyone in our QT voted for themselves, so it was decided randomly). It was a 1-shot Tracker. I tracked Axxle, he targeted Andrew.

Lie

[Axxle]

Faust did get the prize because we all ended up voting ourselves, random.org gave it to Faust.

I am a Vanilla Monster, I didn't target anybody.

[EFHW]

wasn't it faust's idea for me to pick who got the prize?  How did that discussion go, Axxle?

[Axxle]

wasn't it faust's idea for me to pick who got the prize?  How did that discussion go, Axxle?

I voted me. Andrew forgot to vote twice. Faust said he didn't trust either of us so voted for himself.  When I brought it up that you said I should get it he didn't respond.

[Axxle]

@dd: lylo means lynch (correctly) or lose.  In this case if a town player puts a stray bot on town, the scum team could pile on for the mislynch

[Axxle]

Faust and DD/archetype. I don't see archetype bussing his partner here... But I also can't see why Faust just didn't kill archetype here if archetype isn't his partner.

[EFHW]

Also, why would anyone kill Andrew, who was suspected.  And leave me alive, which helps a great deal in POE.  I think they do not have complete control over where their kill goes.

[Archetype]

Alright. I could let this go on longer, but Faust won't be on until tommorow anyway.

So. I lied about a couple of things. I know that Town lying is discouraged, but I saw very little negatives for Town believing what I said.

The first thing is faust's investigation. That was a total lie. It was made up to gather some impossible to recreate information. I actually didn't use my power at all last night.

Which leads me to the second lie. The Decomissoned Door was a 1-shot Commuter, not whatever neighborizing thing I made up. I wanted to appear as vulnerable as possible to draw some nightkills. It seems like I only drew one, which sort of sucks but I was probably being too optimistic if I wanted to get both.

So, yeah. I felt like doing these things would be a lot better than telling the truth. Turns out they did.

[Axxle]

Hmm, I don't see how either helped if there wasn't a second kill? Decommissioned door makes more sense as a commuter than a neighborizer though.

[Archetype]

Hmm, I don't see how either helped if there wasn't a second kill? Decommissioned door makes more sense as a commuter than a neighborizer though.

I'm pretty sure there was a second kill that targeted me and I avoided.

[EFHW]

I don't see how it helped either.  I may start policy voting town liars.  Have you already forgotten the fiasco the last time you lied (that I know about)?  I think that was LOTR2.  And why didn't you use your sensor power?  That would have been so valuable today.  Maybe you don't have that, either.  Evading the kill made things murkier, unless you were told that a kill on you was stopped.  What makes you "pretty sure"?  Actual information, or just a notion?

What benefit did you get from accusing faust with made-up evidence?

[EFHW]

Not disclosing the Commuter power was the right decision.

[EFHW]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

But there's also him Tracking Axxle, which supports my scumread on him earlier. Let me think about this. In the meantime, no votes please.

How does tracking Axxle make faust scummy?  I'm not defending him, I just want you to spell it out so we know how you are getting to your conclusions.

[EFHW]

So we won the prize, huh? EFHW, I think you should decide who of us gets to use it.

Do you know what it does?

No. But I suppose it's somehow beneficial to us. It's certainly bad if it falls into scum hands.

Here is faust suggesting I decide who gets the prize.  He knew who his housemates were then.  What changed? 

[EFHW]

Well, maybe I should check my messages before posting stuff. So yeah, I got the prize tonight (everyone in our QT voted for themselves, so it was decided randomly). It was a 1-shot Tracker. I tracked Axxle, he targeted Andrew.

Axxle said that Andrew didn't vote, you are saying everyone voted for themselves.

[Archetype]

I don't see how it helped either.  I may start policy voting town liars.  Have you already forgotten the fiasco the last time you lied (that I know about)?  I think that was LOTR2.  And why didn't you use your sensor power?  That would have been so valuable today.  Maybe you don't have that, either.  Evading the kill made things murkier, unless you were told that a kill on you was stopped.  What makes you "pretty sure"?  Actual information, or just a notion?

What benefit did you get from accusing faust with made-up evidence?

From accusing Faust we got interactions. I couldn't commute and sensor in the same night. If I had sensored instead of commuted, I would be dead.

[Archetype]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

But there's also him Tracking Axxle, which supports my scumread on him earlier. Let me think about this. In the meantime, no votes please.

How does tracking Axxle make faust scummy?  I'm not defending him, I just want you to spell it out so we know how you are getting to your conclusions.

"Supports my scumread" was referring to Axxle, not Faust.

[EFHW]

I don't see how it helped either.  I may start policy voting town liars.  Have you already forgotten the fiasco the last time you lied (that I know about)?  I think that was LOTR2.  And why didn't you use your sensor power?  That would have been so valuable today.  Maybe you don't have that, either.  Evading the kill made things murkier, unless you were told that a kill on you was stopped.  What makes you "pretty sure"?  Actual information, or just a notion?

What benefit did you get from accusing faust with made-up evidence?

From accusing Faust we got interactions. I couldn't commute and sensor in the same night. If I had sensored instead of commuted, I would be dead.

I gathered as much about not being able to use your power.  What did you learn from the interactions?

[EFHW]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

But there's also him Tracking Axxle, which supports my scumread on him earlier. Let me think about this. In the meantime, no votes please.

How does tracking Axxle make faust scummy?  I'm not defending him, I just want you to spell it out so we know how you are getting to your conclusions.

"Supports my scumread" was referring to Axxle, not Faust.

So you actually believe faust, despite your lie?

[EFHW]

Andrew's flip is soooo strange. Like, I was sure he's scum. And why would anyone kill him?

If you were sure he was scum, then why did you refuse to vote for him when I asked everyone to pick between mail-mi and Andrew? 

[Archetype]

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

But there's also him Tracking Axxle, which supports my scumread on him earlier. Let me think about this. In the meantime, no votes please.

How does tracking Axxle make faust scummy?  I'm not defending him, I just want you to spell it out so we know how you are getting to your conclusions.

"Supports my scumread" was referring to Axxle, not Faust.

So you actually believe faust, despite your lie?

Uh, yeah? Axxle is 100% scum. I'm convinced we're looking at 3 man scum team and 1 SK. If Axxle wasn't scum, DD AND Faust would have to be scum.

[Archetype]

Hey I'm not going to be able to post until tonight when I drive back from my home town...

But dayum. This is interesting.

Then why aren't you voting?

It's LyLo. I want to see if there's some sort of other explanation.

What's LyLo?

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

What do you mean? Like you asked if scum wasn't on the wagon? Hmmm...

This seems unblockable like tracking or cops could be...




What do you all think of this? Could it be Faust and Axxel as the team? Why would Faust out his partner, except maybe to gain sway with the town?

Or they're both scum, but one is mafia and the other is a SK and they happened to hit the same target?

There's this by DD

And

I sensored Faust. He's scum.

Woah. Is there any way for scum to manipulate the outcome of your investigation?

This by Faust.

This makes me think Axxle is Mafia and Faust SK.

[EFHW]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

[Archetype]

I don't see how it helped either.  I may start policy voting town liars.  Have you already forgotten the fiasco the last time you lied (that I know about)?  I think that was LOTR2.  And why didn't you use your sensor power?  That would have been so valuable today.  Maybe you don't have that, either.  Evading the kill made things murkier, unless you were told that a kill on you was stopped.  What makes you "pretty sure"?  Actual information, or just a notion?

What benefit did you get from accusing faust with made-up evidence?

From accusing Faust we got interactions. I couldn't commute and sensor in the same night. If I had sensored instead of commuted, I would be dead.

I gathered as much about not being able to use your power.  What did you learn from the interactions?

If you figured that I wouldn't be able to use my power, then why did you ask why I didn't?

[Axxle]

Well, maybe I should check my messages before posting stuff. So yeah, I got the prize tonight (everyone in our QT voted for themselves, so it was decided randomly). It was a 1-shot Tracker. I tracked Axxle, he targeted Andrew.

Axxle said that Andrew didn't vote, you are saying everyone voted for themselves.

Because Andrew didn't vote, the mod determined he voted for himself instead

[Archetype]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

[Archetype]

For the mod: Is kill flavor irrelevant to the game's roles?

[Axxle]

Did DD know what the door did?

[EFHW]

I don't see how it helped either.  I may start policy voting town liars.  Have you already forgotten the fiasco the last time you lied (that I know about)?  I think that was LOTR2.  And why didn't you use your sensor power?  That would have been so valuable today.  Maybe you don't have that, either.  Evading the kill made things murkier, unless you were told that a kill on you was stopped.  What makes you "pretty sure"?  Actual information, or just a notion?

What benefit did you get from accusing faust with made-up evidence?

From accusing Faust we got interactions. I couldn't commute and sensor in the same night. If I had sensored instead of commuted, I would be dead.

I gathered as much about not being able to use your power.  What did you learn from the interactions?

If you figured that I wouldn't be able to use my power, then why did you ask why I didn't?

I realized after I posted, and decided to see what you would say rather than posting again.

[Archetype]

Did DD know what the door did?

No

[EFHW]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

Except Andrew isn't a logical choice at all, so he could have been killed instead of you somehow.  It seems like if there were two kills, they either both would have wanted to kill you, or the scum on the wagon would have tried to kill me, and the scum off the wagon would try to kill you.

If there is any more information you haven't shared, I think now would be a good time.

[Axxle]

Also a massclaim would be nice

[Archetype]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

Except Andrew isn't a logical choice at all, so he could have been killed instead of you somehow.  It seems like if there were two kills, they either both would have wanted to kill you, or the scum on the wagon would have tried to kill me, and the scum off the wagon would try to kill you.

If there is any more information you haven't shared, I think now would be a good time.

There's no other information to share.

Andrew was not-Mafia in my eyes and I never understood everyone else's scumread on him. I think Axxle killed Andrew because he knew that the SK (Faust) would kill me because he would be lynched the next day if he didn't (Since I'd cop him) and/or he knew my DeDo was a 1-shot Commuter (which he stated previously made the most sense).

[EFHW]

I don't think so.  If someone has the ability to skew who gets killed, they should keep it to themselves.

[Archetype]

Also a massclaim would be nice

Disagree. Scum, not town, needs to be surprised.

PPE: 1

[Axxle]

I don't think so.  If someone has the ability to skew who gets killed, they should keep it to themselves.

A lot of my reads came from nk analysis though

[Archetype]

Anyways, can we lynch Axxle now?

[Axxle]

And if it explains fausts result on me, all the better

[Axxle]

Faust: why did you target me?

[Axxle]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

Except Andrew isn't a logical choice at all, so he could have been killed instead of you somehow.  It seems like if there were two kills, they either both would have wanted to kill you, or the scum on the wagon would have tried to kill me, and the scum off the wagon would try to kill you.

If there is any more information you haven't shared, I think now would be a good time.

There's no other information to share.

Andrew was not-Mafia in my eyes and I never understood everyone else's scumread on him. I think Axxle killed Andrew because he knew that the SK (Faust) would kill me because he would be lynched the next day if he didn't (Since I'd cop him) and/or he knew my DeDo was a 1-shot Commuter (which he stated previously made the most sense).

Why would I kill Andrew?

[EFHW]

Andrew was not-Mafia in my eyes and I never understood everyone else's scumread on him. I think Axxle killed Andrew because he knew that the SK (Faust) would kill me because he would be lynched the next day if he didn't (Since I'd cop him) and/or he knew my DeDo was a 1-shot Commuter (which he stated previously made the most sense).

Assuming the human child would be comfortable leaving killing you to the SK, which I am not sure of, Axxle or DD would want to kill me, not Andrew.  Andrew would have been a mislynch possibility and would have provided some cover by being another suspect.

But I don't think they would leave the kill to the SK.  If we have two independent killers, with the human child on the wagon, then he wouldn't have known if faust was SK or not.  In case faust was town, the child would have to kill you to keep faust as a suspect, or kill me to still only have 1 IC to deal with.

It also doesn't make sense that Axxle would assume his guess about the door was right, and be confident that you hadn't used it.

[EFHW]

I don't think so.  If someone has the ability to skew who gets killed, they should keep it to themselves.

A lot of my reads came from nk analysis though

Tell us where your nk analysis has led you so far.

[Axxle]

I don't think so.  If someone has the ability to skew who gets killed, they should keep it to themselves.

A lot of my reads came from nk analysis though

Tell us where your nk analysis has led you so far.

Mislynching mailmi for one.

[EFHW]

I don't think so.  If someone has the ability to skew who gets killed, they should keep it to themselves.

A lot of my reads came from nk analysis though

Tell us where your nk analysis has led you so far.

Mislynching mailmi for one.

But what are your current thoughts?

[Axxle]

That Faust is scum because he lied about his night actions.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Still in car, will be home in like 2 and a half hours.

Should we claim or not? If Axxels scum and then the info would help the SK plan. I don't think we should.

As far as who the SK is, I'd think Faust cause I know what I am, but I'm not ready to discount Archetype either. If he did a fake claim before, then we're done if we discount him.

[Archetype]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

Except Andrew isn't a logical choice at all, so he could have been killed instead of you somehow.  It seems like if there were two kills, they either both would have wanted to kill you, or the scum on the wagon would have tried to kill me, and the scum off the wagon would try to kill you.

If there is any more information you haven't shared, I think now would be a good time.

There's no other information to share.

Andrew was not-Mafia in my eyes and I never understood everyone else's scumread on him. I think Axxle killed Andrew because he knew that the SK (Faust) would kill me because he would be lynched the next day if he didn't (Since I'd cop him) and/or he knew my DeDo was a 1-shot Commuter (which he stated previously made the most sense).

Why would I kill Andrew?

I have no idea.

[Archetype]

I'm sorry, but Axxle just has to be scum. There's 2 scum out of Axxle/Faust/DD and guaranteed 1 between Axxle/Faust. Axxle's interactions with WW and Teproc should make it obvious that he's their partner. Faust's selfish acts (In the context of this game) like voting for himself to recieve the prize and DD's willingness to just have no one get the prize should make it clear that Faust is the SK. So we should be lynching between Faust/Axxle certainly, but I prefer Axxle because I fear that if I'm NK'd tonight he won't be lynched in LyLo.

[Axxle]

So you and Faust might just be scum together? I'll have to reread.

Tell me one reason you believe this game is 3/1 scum instead of 2/2?

[Archetype]

So you and Faust might just be scum together? I'll have to reread.

Tell me one reason you believe this game is 3/1 scum instead of 2/2?

In the OP it says "The Mafia in this game are Human Children". This implies that the main faction in this game are the Human Children.

I thought you said I was confirmed town to you?

[Axxle]

You also missed this:

The number of factions and the number of players in any given faction is unknown.
The general setup is unknown.

And my reads can change. They should change. Especially when it's based on this:

It'd be really helpful if you said before you know, die

Eh, alright. I should be asleep, but I'll be brief.

I recieved the Decomissed Door. It's a Day QT maker. I choose someone, and a Daychat QT is opened for the two of us. I chose chairs because he is an IC and out of him and EFHW was the most likely to not be killed since he was lurking...guess I was wrong there.

DD voted to give it to ADK. ADK voted to give it to himself. I voted for myself. WW voted for me. WW and DD refused to vote for one another. I even let everyone know that I'd vote for DD if I couldn't vote for myself. But instead of voting for me like I would expect scum!DD, he voted for ADK to have it and make it be out of the game forever.

Plus on the google maps search thing he worked really hard while WW (and me, and ADK...) totally slacked off. I would expect WW to help his partner instead of just sitting back.

Actually, thinking about this more, WW sitting just sitting back implicates mail-mi over Axxle.

Where you lied at least three times. I just noticed you said that both you *and* ADK got it. You also said that DD voted to give it to ADK, and this is what you base your town read on him, but he explicitly *didn't* so you're lying about your townread on him. You also lied about what the door did (understandably if it actually was a commuter shot).

[Axxle]

DD did you do anything that would have made faust's tracking invalid?

If not I'm just voting faust since there's no reason not to.

[Delirious Deleuze]

DD did you do anything that would have made faust's tracking invalid?

If not I'm just voting faust since there's no reason not to.

No.

My thoughts:

There are 5 of us left, one IC.

So there are four people: Arch, me, Axxel, Faust.

I'm pretty sure we're looking for a SK and a scum. I think the interactions between Teproc/WW and Axxel show this pretty well. I posted about that yesterday pretty hard.

Axxel or faust have to be scum, unless someone redirected, which I don't think happened, because someone would have said something.

That leaves us with two scenarios:

1. Now if we lynch Axxel and he turns out not to be scum (unlikely) the SK and mafia get a kill tonight. That leaves us with 2 people. We lose.

If faust is the mafia, Sk would also know who mafia is (faust), and would have 0 reason not to kill faust in that case. Faust would choose find the SK, because he's going to die either way from the SK. If Faust hits the SK, then town wins, because both scum would shoot each other... I don't think faust would do this if he was the SK. That just doesn't make sense. Faust isn't mafia.

If faust is the SK, then mafia know's who faust is. Same scenario. Faust has no reason to lie. Axxel is definitely scum.

2. Axxel is scum (likely, because of the above.) That leaves us with just a SK, one night kill. It's 2-1.

It's between faust and arch.

I'd lean more to faust in this scenario, I think, because, as arch pointed out, he's been selfish and I've had a scum read on him before.

I'll have to go back and re-read.



On arch's lying, this actually makes me think he's more town. It's obviously confusing and oculd have back fired like it has in a lot of past games, but if he was scum, there would be no real reason for him to come clean and say why he lied. Given the prize he had,  I get the lie on the commuter. He also said he'd vote for me in the forums if he couldn't vote for himself, which gives me a town read. I don't think scum!arch would be willing to give it to someone who's town. Then again this might have been a ploy, but I doubt it.

You also missed this:

The number of factions and the number of players in any given faction is unknown.
The general setup is unknown.

And my reads can change. They should change. Especially when it's based on this:

It'd be really helpful if you said before you know, die

Eh, alright. I should be asleep, but I'll be brief.

I recieved the Decomissed Door. It's a Day QT maker. I choose someone, and a Daychat QT is opened for the two of us. I chose chairs because he is an IC and out of him and EFHW was the most likely to not be killed since he was lurking...guess I was wrong there.

DD voted to give it to ADK. ADK voted to give it to himself. I voted for myself. WW voted for me. WW and DD refused to vote for one another. I even let everyone know that I'd vote for DD if I couldn't vote for myself. But instead of voting for me like I would expect scum!DD, he voted for ADK to have it and make it be out of the game forever.

Plus on the google maps search thing he worked really hard while WW (and me, and ADK...) totally slacked off. I would expect WW to help his partner instead of just sitting back.

Actually, thinking about this more, WW sitting just sitting back implicates mail-mi over Axxle.

Where you lied at least three times. I just noticed you said that both you *and* ADK got it. You also said that DD voted to give it to ADK, and this is what you base your town read on him, but he explicitly *didn't* so you're lying about your townread on him. You also lied about what the door did (understandably if it actually was a commuter shot).

This is all accurate. I voted for ADK, ADK voted for himself, WW and arch. voted for arch. I kept my vote on ADK and it went randomly to arch. I'm not buying Axxel's OMGUS attitude here. It also gives me a towny read on arch because Axxel's trying to get him lynched.

[Delirious Deleuze]

also, waiting to lynch axxel until the end of the day is the best option. We get more information for reads.

However, we should NOT go after the SK today. If we're wrong, there are 2 NKs and we lose for sure. At least by lynching axxel and getting a good idea of who is the SK we can have a chance to win.

[Axxle]

Ok, I didn't realize it randomly went to him.

[Axxle]

Vote: faust

[Delirious Deleuze]

Actually, what powers do SK have beside NKs?

[Axxle]

However, we should NOT go after the SK today. If we're wrong, there are 2 NKs and we lose for sure. At least by lynching axxel and getting a good idea of who is the SK we can have a chance to win.

This logic doesn't make sense. If we assume there is 1 mafia and 1 sk left and we mislynch, regardless of who we go for, we lose unless scum target each other, which they should since 1 sk, 1 mafia is going to cause them both to lose anyway.

If we assume 2 memebers of a second faction then we need to target them for the right lynch, otherwise we straight up lose.

[Axxle]

Actually, what powers do SK have beside NKs?

It varies, most often some kind of bulletproof but nothing is guaranteed.

[Archetype]

You also missed this:

The number of factions and the number of players in any given faction is unknown.
The general setup is unknown.

And my reads can change. They should change. Especially when it's based on this:

It'd be really helpful if you said before you know, die

Eh, alright. I should be asleep, but I'll be brief.

I recieved the Decomissed Door. It's a Day QT maker. I choose someone, and a Daychat QT is opened for the two of us. I chose chairs because he is an IC and out of him and EFHW was the most likely to not be killed since he was lurking...guess I was wrong there.

DD voted to give it to ADK. ADK voted to give it to himself. I voted for myself. WW voted for me. WW and DD refused to vote for one another. I even let everyone know that I'd vote for DD if I couldn't vote for myself. But instead of voting for me like I would expect scum!DD, he voted for ADK to have it and make it be out of the game forever.

Plus on the google maps search thing he worked really hard while WW (and me, and ADK...) totally slacked off. I would expect WW to help his partner instead of just sitting back.

Actually, thinking about this more, WW sitting just sitting back implicates mail-mi over Axxle.

Where you lied at least three times. I just noticed you said that both you *and* ADK got it. You also said that DD voted to give it to ADK, and this is what you base your town read on him, but he explicitly *didn't* so you're lying about your townread on him. You also lied about what the door did (understandably if it actually was a commuter shot).

Yeah, I'm not buying it either. Vote: Axxle

[Axxle]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

[Archetype]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

[Archetype]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Kill flavor, I should say.

[Delirious Deleuze]

However, we should NOT go after the SK today. If we're wrong, there are 2 NKs and we lose for sure. At least by lynching axxel and getting a good idea of who is the SK we can have a chance to win.

This logic doesn't make sense. If we assume there is 1 mafia and 1 sk left and we mislynch, regardless of who we go for, we lose unless scum target each other, which they should since 1 sk, 1 mafia is going to cause them both to lose anyway.

If we assume 2 memebers of a second faction then we need to target them for the right lynch, otherwise we straight up lose.

Well, we know you're scum, so the question is lynch you or find the SK.

I was rethinking this, that's why I asked there powers.

If faust is the SK and has bulletproof or some thing that protects him from NKs that, he could be lying. This changes stuff. I didn't think of that. I'm just going to assume the worst and pretend that the SK has bulletproof.

Let me revise this:

So two scenarios:

1. Axxel is town. Then faust is either:

a. Mafia: in which case the SK would realize this, faust would die, but he'd try to shoot SK or town (it's irrelevant really to faust cause he's dead.) He doesn't have incentive to lie.

b. SK: In which case the mafia would realize he's the SK and try to NK him. If he has protection then it's the SK vs. 3, one being mafia. We lose. But, he probably loses too, because we'd know for sure he was scum. He doesn't have incentive to do this because we'd probably be pretty angry at him and not choose to kill other than him, seeing as he ensured our loss.

Faust still has no incentive to lie. Axxel is scum.

2. Axxel is scum, obviously.

If he's mafia: Then Sk nks someone and we're left to 2-1. We still have to figure out who it is. Arch can use his power to figure it out. Depending on how people vote for Axxel, I think we could figure it out who the SK is from that kind of info. Unless Arch is the SK or the SK targets arch, but then it's still 2-1, and we have a chance of winning.

If he's the SK: then mafia hits someone, and we're 2-1, same as the other scenario.


So, do we lynch axxel or try to find the SK? We have 2 options, faust or arch. I still lean faust.

If we lynch faust or arch instead of Axxel, two scenarios:

1. They're town, in which case we lose.

a. Axxel's mafia and dies from the SK. He can try to hit the SK or hit confirmed town EFHW, but he's going to lose. Given that the SK probably has NK protection, he'll probably just kill EFHW in hope that he doesn't get NKed and can some how still win (even though he won't) that scum!axxel's best option. That puts us at 2 town to the SK tomorrow if he shoots and successfully hits the SK, which is about the same odds as killing scum!axxel, or 1-1 if Axxel shoots EFHW, in which case SK wins. This makes me think this is a worse option, because there's a chance we just automatically lose if axxel shoots EFHW instead of trying to hit the SK. At best, this option is the same as just lynching axxel.

b. Axxel's the SK. Then mafia kills at night and Axxel tries to hit the SK. It's iffy:

Best scenario: SK!Axxel hitting scum and mafia hits axxel, who lives from protection, then it's 2-1, we lynch axxel, we win.
Most likely: Mafia hits Axxel, because it's their only way to win. Axxel kills town. It's 1-1-1. We lose for sure, it's only a question of which scum faction wins.
Less likely: Mafia kills town, Axxel kills town, then it's mafia vs. Sk, SK wins b/c protection.
Least likely: Mafia hits town, Axxel hits mafia. Then it's the SK and town, SK wins.

2. We actually hit scum,

a. If they're mafia, Then Axxel lives and nks someone, it's 2-1, we lynch Axxel the next day, yay! we win.

b. If they're the SK, then axxel lives and NKs someone, it's 2-1, we lynch axxel then next day, yay! we win.



So if we pursue the SK, there a 1/3 chance we win today, if they're actually scum (from the possibilities of me, faust, arch). Otherwise, we either lose or we're the same off as if we just lynched Axxel (but that has no bad chances of auto-loss). If we lynch axxel today, we have about a 50% chance of winning, because it would be 2-1.

I think lynching axxel and getting reads and info today is the best option.

Tell me if my logic is wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is every scenario.

PPE (4):

NO ONE ELSE VOTE AXXEL, he'll just hammer himself to screw us over with time to talk. Let's wait until at least closer to the deadline

[Axxle]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Other than the fact there is absolutely no reason it should be this consistent otherwise? no.

[Archetype]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Other than the fact there is absolutely no reason it should be this consistent otherwise? no.

Flavor is just flavor. Even if I got it wrong and you are the SK, there's enough incriminating evidence that I still want to lynch you.

[Axxle]

DD, you're forgetting the scenario of two, two person scumteams.

[Axxle]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Other than the fact there is absolutely no reason it should be this consistent otherwise? no.

Flavor is just flavor. Even if I got it wrong and you are the SK, there's enough incriminating evidence that I still want to lynch you.

Archetype. Look at the flavor of all the kills. Compile them. Look at what happened every night.  1 kill from being contaminated, one from being sent thorugh a door. Every Single Night besides last night. Even yuma's death had *both*. Tell me again that flavor means nothing.

[Archetype]

DD, my vote was italicized so it shouldn't count at all. However, EFHW, myself and you are going to quickhammer Axxle when the time comes. That way I can investigate you to figure out yours and faust's alignment. Even though I'm likely to be killed anyways.

PPE: 2

[Axxle]

DD, my vote was italicized so it shouldn't count at all. However, EFHW, myself and you are going to quickhammer Axxle when the time comes. That way I can investigate you to figure out yours and faust's alignment. Even though I'm likely to be killed anyways.

PPE: 2

Can you unvote to be sure?

[Axxle]

I've had to remind myself I signed this so many times this game http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0

[Archetype]

DD, my vote was italicized so it shouldn't count at all. However, EFHW, myself and you are going to quickhammer Axxle when the time comes. That way I can investigate you to figure out yours and faust's alignment. Even though I'm likely to be killed anyways.

PPE: 2

Can you unvote to be sure?

Why?

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Other than the fact there is absolutely no reason it should be this consistent otherwise? no.

Flavor is just flavor. Even if I got it wrong and you are the SK, there's enough incriminating evidence that I still want to lynch you.

Archetype. Look at the flavor of all the kills. Compile them. Look at what happened every night.  1 kill from being contaminated, one from being sent thorugh a door. Every Single Night besides last night. Even yuma's death had *both*. Tell me again that flavor means nothing.

Ok. I checked and see your point. So that would make you the SK and Faust Mafia. Another possibility is DD/Faust being scum and that second scumteam. I mean, we could lynch Faust. If he flips HC or SK, we lynch Axxle. If he flips some second scum faction, we lynch DD.


I feel like I'm being persuaded by scum though.

[Axxle]

DD, my vote was italicized so it shouldn't count at all. However, EFHW, myself and you are going to quickhammer Axxle when the time comes. That way I can investigate you to figure out yours and faust's alignment. Even though I'm likely to be killed anyways.

PPE: 2

Can you unvote to be sure?

Why?

Vote in bold or unvote in bold. Take a stance. Don't say later that you made a mistake.

[Delirious Deleuze]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Other than the fact there is absolutely no reason it should be this consistent otherwise? no.

Flavor is just flavor. Even if I got it wrong and you are the SK, there's enough incriminating evidence that I still want to lynch you.

This, and faust has no incentive to lie because he'll lose. No one blocked, no one redirected.

DD, you're forgetting the scenario of two, two person scumteams.

Okay let me check the possiblilies. It'll be my next post.

PPE:

DD, my vote was italicized so it shouldn't count at all. However, EFHW, myself and you are going to quickhammer Axxle when the time comes. That way I can investigate you to figure out yours and faust's alignment. Even though I'm likely to be killed anyways.

PPE: 2

oops you're right it was italicized. And yes, please use your power. you probably will die, but if you don't we get to know who everyone is for sure... unless you're scum... but we'll get there when we get there. I'll have to make up my mind on that tomorrow if you're still alive.

[Axxle]

@Archetype: Actually, Andrew was pretty clearly killed by non-mafia, and you're convinced I'm mafia.  Why would I try kill *you* in your narrative?

Do we have any confirmation that flavor is indicative of roles?

Other than the fact there is absolutely no reason it should be this consistent otherwise? no.

Flavor is just flavor. Even if I got it wrong and you are the SK, there's enough incriminating evidence that I still want to lynch you.

This, and faust has no incentive to lie because he'll lose. No one blocked, no one redirected.

If mislynching me wins the game for him, as is the case if he's on a team of two, then he absolutely has incentive to lie.

[Axxle]

NO ONE ELSE VOTE AXXEL, he'll just hammer himself to screw us over with time to talk. Let's wait until at least closer to the deadline

Why would you think I would do this? There is absolutely no reason in your current narrative.

[Archetype]

Unvote

Ugh. Ok. I just realized something else that could make faust more likely Town/a part of a two man team. My commuting couldn't be used in conjunction with my power. I wonder if faust's Tracking is the same way?

I'm going to take a break here and wait for EFHW to chime in.

[Delirious Deleuze]

KK, so the scenario for two scum teams, with 4 options remaining, there are 6 options, faust/arch, faust/me, faust/axxel, arch/me, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

First, let's take out the options that make no sense, which is the team of faust and anyone who's not arch, because they would realize arch could literally just figure out if faust is scum last night and they would have killed him, but they killed andrew instead, so we're down to 4 options, faust/arch, arch/me, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

Now, we're left with a couple of options as town:

1. Lynch Axxel:

If he's town, than faust is scum which leaves us with one option of the team. We're at 4 people, they NK one, we lose.

If he's scum, then it's either me or arch. There's a NK, and it's a 2-1. Pretty random shot.

All of these prospects are bad if it's two scum teams.

2. Lynch someone else:

Let's say faust:

If he's town, then we lose.

If he's scum, then we kill arch tomorrow. We win.

Let's try arch:

If he's town, it's me and axxel, town loses.

If he's scum, then scum Nks someone, 2-1, pretty random shot.

Let's try me:

If I'm town, it's arch and someone else, we lose.

If I'm scum, it's arch or axxel, they NK, it's 2-1.


Even if there is another 2 person mafia, the BEST odds we have in that scenario are EXACTLY the same (if not less) than with a SK and a mafia member (because we can still use arch's powers tonight to figure it out.)

If you look at my other breakdown, the best shot we get, that's likely, is a 2-1 in the end with some info gained. This scenario has a lot of insta losses too, which is the same reason that lynching for the SK today isn't as good as just killing you.

And the fact you're a proponent of such a bad scenario is pretty damning too.



tl;dr: Even if he's right, the odds are worse for us if we lynch with that mindset and scenario. The best possible option for us, the safest one in face of being unsure about scum, is to lynch Axxel and then lynch the SK.

PPE (3)

NO ONE ELSE VOTE AXXEL, he'll just hammer himself to screw us over with time to talk. Let's wait until at least closer to the deadline

Why would you think I would do this? There is absolutely no reason in your current narrative.

Actually, it's a wash if you're mafia or SK. You know you'd lose, so why not just self-hammer or not? There 0 reason to stay alive, and if you're right and there's a two man scum team out there, then your self-hammering could save your partner.

Unvote

Ugh. Ok. I just realized something else that could make faust more likely Town/a part of a two man team. My commuting couldn't be used in conjunction with my power. I wonder if faust's Tracking is the same way?

I'm going to take a break here and wait for EFHW to chime in.

I don't think so. The reason you can't use your power is because, from my understanding of commuter, you literally leave the game, which is why commuter is the ultimate defense. Tracker is not the same.

And why does that make faust towny or part of a two man team? Because he couldn't use his other powers if he has one? I don't think it's true, but it's a fun thought.

EFHW: Your thoughts.

Arch: What do you think of the scenarios? I think I'm right, but I'd like everyone to help think it through. If we play this right, we could use POE, your powers, and Faust's read to win, hopefully.

[Axxle]

And the fact you're a proponent of such a bad scenario is pretty damning too.

You're not even entertaining the idea I'm town are you? What would be my reaction to everything that has happened if I am a Vanilla Monster? "If he's town, than faust is scum which leaves us with one option of the team. We're at 4 people, they NK one, we lose." You said it right there.

[Delirious Deleuze]

And the fact you're a proponent of such a bad scenario is pretty damning too.

You're not even entertaining the idea I'm town are you? What would be my reaction to everything that has happened if I am a Vanilla Monster? "If he's town, than faust is scum which leaves us with one option of the team. We're at 4 people, they NK one, we lose." You said it right there.

Yeah, but it's the same odds for everyone else. Sure, everyone in your scenario both scum and town would do this. That's kind of why I've been trying to figure out what to do from here.

Regardless of everything, you're the best option.

[Axxle]

And the fact you're a proponent of such a bad scenario is pretty damning too.

You're not even entertaining the idea I'm town are you? What would be my reaction to everything that has happened if I am a Vanilla Monster? "If he's town, than faust is scum which leaves us with one option of the team. We're at 4 people, they NK one, we lose." You said it right there.

Yeah, but it's the same odds for everyone else.

Then you realize that me being a "proponent of such a bad scenario" is not damning in the slightest, right?

[Axxle]

First, let's take out the options that make no sense, which is the team of faust and anyone who's not arch, because they would realize arch could literally just figure out if faust is scum last night and they would have killed him, but they killed andrew instead, so we're down to 4 options, faust/arch, arch/me, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

You can take you/Arch off that list. faust would have no incentive to lie in that case, and you both would quickhammer faust.

[Delirious Deleuze]

And the fact you're a proponent of such a bad scenario is pretty damning too.

You're not even entertaining the idea I'm town are you? What would be my reaction to everything that has happened if I am a Vanilla Monster? "If he's town, than faust is scum which leaves us with one option of the team. We're at 4 people, they NK one, we lose." You said it right there.

Yeah, but it's the same odds for everyone else.

Then you realize that me being a "proponent of such a bad scenario" is not damning in the slightest, right?

I mean, it's null. The odds apply the same for everyone, but if it's not a two person mafia team, it's best to lynch you. So yeah, you trying to get us to hunt a two-player mafia is less helpful...

But it doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure you're scum. I've had a huge scum read on you since two days ago, I'm done arguing this with you. You're scum.

Also, if you were town you'd probably do more than just tell people you're town. You'd actually start scumhunting before you died.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.2:

faust (1):. Axxle

Not Voting (4):  EFHW, Arch, faust, DD

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[Delirious Deleuze]

First, let's take out the options that make no sense, which is the team of faust and anyone who's not arch, because they would realize arch could literally just figure out if faust is scum last night and they would have killed him, but they killed andrew instead, so we're down to 4 options, faust/arch, arch/me, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

You can take you/Arch off that list. faust would have no incentive to lie in that case, and you both would quickhammer faust.

That too. Didn't think of that.

That leaves faust/arch, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

Using the template from below:

Now, we're left with a couple of options as town:

1. Lynch Axxel:

If he's town, than faust is scum which leaves us with one option of the team. We're at 4 people, they NK one, we lose.

If he's scum, then it's either me or arch. There's a NK, and it's a 2-1. Pretty random shot.

All of these prospects are bad if it's two scum teams.

2. Lynch someone else:

Let's say faust:

If he's town, then we lose.

If he's scum, then we kill arch tomorrow. We win.

Let's try arch:

If he's town, it's me and axxel, town loses.

If he's scum, then scum Nks someone, 2-1, pretty random shot.

Let's try me:

I'm town, it's arch and someone else, we lose.

If I'm scum, it's axxel, they NK, we win tomorrow by lynching axxel.

Doesn't change much. Lynching axxel is still best.

[Axxle]

Axxle- Weird, but I'm not feeling anything scummy from them. Town.

Axxle - weird but town.

Axxle - Town but weird

1. Axxle? I think clearly very town, but that's me. If someone even has suspicions, ask questions so we have more to analyze.

My responses in bold

I just reread D1, I'll reread the rest tomorrow.

As for now, rereading has changed my thoughts a lot.

To begin, something I noted between Teproc and WW; Teproc was very for claiming houses and prizes, WW was against it. This is evidence that they definitely planned interactions or at least were conscience of each others' posts. Teproc then voted for WW for no good reason, they argued shortly, and it was forgot about. I think this interaction shows that scum, in this game, are definitely planning interactions or at least trying to make it so it's not so easy to spot them by interacting in aggressive ways, slightly, to their partners.

Good catch.

With this in mind, I got the following thoughts:

mail-mi: He had a short vote on WW for no good reason, but nothing really became of this. I thought of it in the same boat as Teproc vote on WW. Then I saw Teproc's read on mail-mi and it was "slight scum" just like he had on WW. I was getting more convinced until I went back and reread Teproc's and WW's wagon on mail-mi and realized how close it got to lynching him and it only didn't because.... ADk... and Andrew switched. I don't think Teproc and WW would have risked this, even if they were trying to construct aggression and suspicion on each other so people didn't think they were partners.

You just said earlier that scum had planned a lot of aggression out. If you reread Day 1 you'd realize that it'd look really scummy if Teproc hadn't switched his vote so late in the day and WW was already really committed to the mail-mi wagon.

That leaves me with only a SK read on him, but I feel much more towny after rereading D1. Unvote.

There are other days too!

AndrewisFTTW: I saw that Teproc had a fight with Andrew that was pretty lengthy. This is very different than the interactions Teproc was having with WW. It gave me a very town read because this fight actually felt real and it didn't go away, at nausia. This fight, I thought, was really similar to the fight between ADK and WW in D1 regarding WW's fake slip in the QT. It gave me a bit more of a town read on Andrew.

He also had a small fight over whether or not my post was artificial or not, and WW said it wasn't he said it did. This interaction didn't last long and just seemed like WW trying to white knight me.

He had another interaction with WW over Joth's self vote. I saw nothing consequential from here.

This all gave me a fairly null-town read.

ok

Axxle: This is where the reread got interesting. Despite Axxle's obviously weird play style in D1, he had more than short, non-substantial posts.

1. He votes for WW because, "wagons are fun." This seems silly and an excuse to vote for him without having reasons... He quickly swithes his vote too. Keep in mind this was well after the RVS.

His response to me voting him seemed pretty town, what can I say.

2. Then he jumps on my wagon which is whatever, but then WW begins to have a slight scum read on him because he feels Axxle's vote on me was "artificial"? It seems very similar to the interaction between Teproc and WW at the beginning of D1.

Why would I not mislynch Joth to oblivion here? He *selfvoted*. That's the easiest thing to ride on till the end of the day.

3. Teproc had a slight scum read on Axxle and WW had a slight scum read on him. This differentiation might be nothing, and probably isn't, but it would also be the pattern well thoughtout scum would make when making reads, or at least I think it is.

I assume you mean teproc has a slight town read on me. Sure this kinda points to it but only if the other evidence does too. It's pretty weak on it's own.

4. He first jumps on Yuma to use the shot right away and even gives a list of people to use it on.... then he votes yuma, because he's afraid that scum will just manipulate the shot and make him shoot a town. This seems pretty backwards given his first reaction with it. Mail-mi and Yuma catch onto this and shortly after he stops this discussion completely.

I thought yuma was lying after his behavior. And if he wasn't, if we brought up his wagon to close to a lynch he'd have to prove himself and I'd get exactly what I want, a dayvig. It turns out that his behavior was because he was in fact *not* a dayvig but a Desperado which explains his reluctance.

5. He says we shouldn't listen to the ICs or let them make decisions. This is an inherently scummy thing to say.

I never said that. I said stop taking their opinions as law which most of the town was doing.

6. He jumps on mail-mi's wagon with literally no reason posted.

7. Then he just jumps and put's joth at L-2.

First off: WRONG ORDER. I voted joth, then voted mailmi. Big difference. I voted joth since the day was within 10 hours from ending and joth seemed like the only viable lynch. Even if I thought he might be town a no lynch is pretty bad day 1. After WW, Andrew, *and* joth voted mail-mi I saw a chance to lynch someone I didn't have townread on and took it. That doesn't need any explanation if you actually read through my posts.

I'm pretty convinced he's scum after that reread, despite his lack of posts to begin with.

Vote: Axxle. That's L-1

Just reading D1 and then putting me at L-1 when you've already said you're going to read the rest later sounds incredibly disingenuous.

Because I'm thinking of it: the Robz kill might not have come from mafia since WW was a Nexus and might not have been worried about it.

General
I have to go to bed because I’m driving back for graduation tomorrow (I graduated early and moved away), so this is going to be more of a skim than the last big post I did.
First, EFHW, I don’t know why you’re completely ruling Andrew out. He’s not my lynch candidate, but I don’t think we should totally rule him out as a possible scum.

Axxle

Still confident here.

D2: His first post in this day was not directed at Teproc and the vote at all, but specifically at prize giving. This seems like a scum way to avoid voting for a partner. Then again, rather than address Then he slips up and doesn’t realize that the Desperado PR was a day power, even thought he read and posted the wiki….
How is this scummy? I'm trying to discern if Robz was town.

With the interaction with him and Teproc over the info he dropped from his QT, it seems like a really forced conversation, just like Teproc’s interaction with WW.
Ok?

The caveat, WW claims Teproc is scum in his attack over axxle. It feels really forced into making us not expect them of being scum, then Teproc quickly says he feels Axxel is most likely town.
I'll have to reread this to rebut it.

WW then defends Axxel by defending his slip? Why would WW defend a town player people wanted to lynch?
I'll have to reread this to rebut it.

Axxel’s fight with witherweaver over voting also seems super fake and weird, with Axxel shouting NO. And then he tells us not to listen to ICs as much, like they’re right.
I'll have to reread this to rebut it.

D3: Randomly votes for Arch? Because he was trying to trick him into claiming something… or responding… or? What? This play seems fake. And WW breaking it does too.
I wanted a read on archetype. Any read on archetype. Didn't everyone at this point? It's day 3 and he was super lurking, not voting, etc.

He was accusing Arch for lurking, then instantly switched his vote to mail-mi after a single question by Arch.
Lurking doesn't mean I have a scumread on him.

[Axxle]

Again, why the hell do I kill Andrew in this situation? EFHW is confirmed town and DD, Archetype, faust *all* put me to L-1 yesterday. That's suicide!

[EFHW]

I don't have time to read through all the theories right now, but I have the feeling people are making some unfounded assumptions.

Axxle the question of why would you kill Andrew isn't helpful b/c why would anyone have killed Andrew?

I don't see anyone here as obv!scum right now, or obv!town.  I'll try to be back on tonight, but it might not be until tomorrow that I can devote some time to this.

[Axxle]

I don't have time to read through all the theories right now, but I have the feeling people are making some unfounded assumptions.

Axxle the question of why would you kill Andrew isn't helpful b/c why would anyone have killed Andrew?

A team of faust/Archetype. They know that you and DD have had scumreads on me for a while. They know I have an uphill battle, needing to persuade two town to reverse their reads.

[Axxle]

Oh wait, I guess you did have a townread on me towards the end of yesterday.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Again, why the hell do I kill Andrew in this situation? EFHW is confirmed town and DD, Archetype, faust *all* put me to L-1 yesterday. That's suicide!

What EFHW said.... And its possible you attacked arch and a SK killed andrew

[Axxle]

Honestly if I was scum the IC's would be dead asap. It's very hard to lead the town the way you want when there's an IC in the game. Forget WIFOM, it's just good play to do that.

[Axxle]

Everyone seems pretty convinced it's me and faust. So can we lynch faust first and see if he's an SK or 2nd mafia party?

[Axxle]

Again, why the hell do I kill Andrew in this situation? EFHW is confirmed town and DD, Archetype, faust *all* put me to L-1 yesterday. That's suicide!

What EFHW said.... And its possible you attacked arch and a SK killed andrew

faust tracked me to Andrew.

[Axxle]

faust tracked me to Andrew.

from my perspective: He's lying.
There is only one reason for him to lie: If he's on a team of 2 people.
The only reason he'd keep Archetype alive is if he knew Archetype wouldn't call him scum.
The only reason he'd know Archetype wouldn't call him scum is if they're scum together.

Therefore: Archetype/faust scumteam.

From other peoples' perspectives: He might be telling the truth.
That means I'm lying.
That means I'm the SK, and all of the reads that connect me with mafia are completely wrong.
That means that the mafia tried to kill Archetype (since there was no mafia kill).
Who would try to kill Archetype? faust who didn't want to be outed.

Therefore: Axxle/faust are scum on different teams.

Therefore: faust should be the lynch.

[Axxle]

And to those who want to ignore flavor: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4679.0

[Axxle]

That leaves faust/arch, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

If it's me/arch, it'd be a lot easier for us to win if arch just claimed to have a guilty on faust.

You know it's not me and you.

Therefore if there's a 2 man scumteam it's faust/arch.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Again, why the hell do I kill Andrew in this situation? EFHW is confirmed town and DD, Archetype, faust *all* put me to L-1 yesterday. That's suicide!

What EFHW said.... And its possible you attacked arch and a SK killed andrew

faust tracked me to Andrew.

Yea this hit me while I was eating. I was being silly.

faust tracked me to Andrew.

from my perspective: He's lying.
There is only one reason for him to lie: If he's on a team of 2 people.
The only reason he'd keep Archetype alive is if he knew Archetype wouldn't call him scum.
The only reason he'd know Archetype wouldn't call him scum is if they're scum together.

Therefore: Archetype/faust scumteam.

From other peoples' perspectives: He might be telling the truth.
That means I'm lying.
That means I'm the SK, and all of the reads that connect me with mafia are completely wrong.
That means that the mafia tried to kill Archetype (since there was no mafia kill).
Who would try to kill Archetype? faust who didn't want to be outed.

Therefore: Axxle/faust are scum on different teams.

Therefore: faust should be the lynch.

Obviously I take the second of the approaches.

I think there's the option of you being mafia, and someone else being SK. Maybe you both targeted Andrew.

I don't think that flavour is enough to say for sure.

Ash: Does flavour indicate factions?

If it does, than you're right. Then we have a two person mafia faction and it's arch and faust. I will completely stop coming after you then. I will vote faust automatically if flavour matters. Because then you're totally right.

Then, faust is either the SK, mafia, or a team with arch.

If he was mafia or SK he would not lie. He would lose. A 2-person game makes sense. Maybe arch hasn't even used his commuter.

I think I need to know the answer to the flavour question first.

If the answer's no, then I'm staying with you as mafia and you're the first lynch choice.

[ashersky]

Flavor typically implies kill type, unless otherwise noted in setup rules.

[Archetype]

Flavor typically implies kill type, unless otherwise noted in setup rules.

Ok, wow. I'm going to have to rethink this a bit.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

[EFHW]

faust has lurked all day today.  Come back and talk to us faust! 

[EFHW]

Flavor typically implies kill type, unless otherwise noted in setup rules.

Ok, wow. I'm going to have to rethink this a bit.

why?  This is the assumption we have been working with.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Flavor typically implies kill type, unless otherwise noted in setup rules.

Ok, wow. I'm going to have to rethink this a bit.

why?  This is the assumption we have been working with.

I haven't been working with this assumption

[faust]

Responding to stuff as I move along.

Faust did get the prize because we all ended up voting ourselves, random.org gave it to Faust.

I am a Vanilla Monster, I didn't target anybody.

That's enough to vote:Axxle. There could be some redirection going on, but I doubt it, we have seen a Nexus already. So this is just a lie.

[faust]

Also, why would anyone kill Andrew, who was suspected.  And leave me alive, which helps a great deal in POE.  I think they do not have complete control over where their kill goes.

I think one scum may have wanted to take out the other? Either that, or there's a 2-player scum team that decided they can push their last mislynch through if they kill Andrew (maybe because they think they can convince EFHW).

[Axxle]

Flavor typically implies kill type, unless otherwise noted in setup rules.

Ok, wow. I'm going to have to rethink this a bit.

why?  This is the assumption we have been working with.

I haven't been working with this assumption

you italicized voted for faust, not bolded, fyi.

[faust]

So we won the prize, huh? EFHW, I think you should decide who of us gets to use it.

Do you know what it does?

No. But I suppose it's somehow beneficial to us. It's certainly bad if it falls into scum hands.

Here is faust suggesting I decide who gets the prize.  He knew who his housemates were then.  What changed?

mail-mi flipped town. That meant, in my eyes, that there were most likely two scum left among DeDe/Archetype/Axxle/Andrew. I believed Archetype's claim, and DeDe was the towniest of the rest. So to me the most likely thing was that I my sorority members were both scum. I didn't want the prize to fall into scum hands.

When I asked you that question, I still hoped we would lynch Axxle. That didn't happen, though. If we had lynched scum, I might have followed your plan. The way it was, though, the risk of scum getting the prize was just too high.

[faust]

Well, maybe I should check my messages before posting stuff. So yeah, I got the prize tonight (everyone in our QT voted for themselves, so it was decided randomly). It was a 1-shot Tracker. I tracked Axxle, he targeted Andrew.

Axxle said that Andrew didn't vote, you are saying everyone voted for themselves.

ashersky made it very clear that if Andrew didn't vote in his next post, that would be counted as him voting for himself. He didn't vote. I counted that as him voting for himself.

[faust]

I don't see how it helped either.  I may start policy voting town liars.  Have you already forgotten the fiasco the last time you lied (that I know about)?  I think that was LOTR2.  And why didn't you use your sensor power?  That would have been so valuable today.  Maybe you don't have that, either.  Evading the kill made things murkier, unless you were told that a kill on you was stopped.  What makes you "pretty sure"?  Actual information, or just a notion?

What benefit did you get from accusing faust with made-up evidence?

From accusing Faust we got interactions. I couldn't commute and sensor in the same night. If I had sensored instead of commuted, I would be dead.

While it is true that Arch had reasons to lie, I think that accusing me was bad, because it biased people towards thinking that I am scum.

[faust]

Andrew's flip is soooo strange. Like, I was sure he's scum. And why would anyone kill him?

If you were sure he was scum, then why did you refuse to vote for him when I asked everyone to pick between mail-mi and Andrew?

I was sure he was scum AFTER mail-mi's flip.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.3:

faust (1):  Axxle
Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (4):  EFHW, Arch, DD

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[faust]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

Except Andrew isn't a logical choice at all, so he could have been killed instead of you somehow.  It seems like if there were two kills, they either both would have wanted to kill you, or the scum on the wagon would have tried to kill me, and the scum off the wagon would try to kill you.

If there is any more information you haven't shared, I think now would be a good time.

There's no other information to share.

Andrew was not-Mafia in my eyes and I never understood everyone else's scumread on him. I think Axxle killed Andrew because he knew that the SK (Faust) would kill me because he would be lynched the next day if he didn't (Since I'd cop him) and/or he knew my DeDo was a 1-shot Commuter (which he stated previously made the most sense).

Questions:

1. How would Axxle "know" that I'm a SK?
2. If Axxle really somehow was sure I was SK, why kill Andrew and not me? Or why kill Andrew or not EFHW? I think the most logical things for scum to do are A) going after the third faction, B) going after confirmed town, C) going after claimed PRs. Yet you claim scum would not choose any of these options.

[faust]

Faust: why did you target me?

To me, the situation was like this: three scum in DeDe/Axxle/Andrew. I was most convinced of Andrew's scumminess. So I wanted to investigate one of DeDe/Axxle to find the other scum. I chose Axxle because he was more likely scum in my eyes.

[faust]

I'm sorry, but Axxle just has to be scum. There's 2 scum out of Axxle/Faust/DD and guaranteed 1 between Axxle/Faust. Axxle's interactions with WW and Teproc should make it obvious that he's their partner. Faust's selfish acts (In the context of this game) like voting for himself to recieve the prize and DD's willingness to just have no one get the prize should make it clear that Faust is the SK. So we should be lynching between Faust/Axxle certainly, but I prefer Axxle because I fear that if I'm NK'd tonight he won't be lynched in LyLo.

Me voting for myself wasn't selfish, it was the only logical thing to do as town. What other selfish acts are you referring to?

[faust]

I'd lean more to faust in this scenario, I think, because, as arch pointed out, he's been selfish and I've had a scum read on him before.

Can you please support this with evidence?

On arch's lying, this actually makes me think he's more town. It's obviously confusing and oculd have back fired like it has in a lot of past games, but if he was scum, there would be no real reason for him to come clean and say why he lied. Given the prize he had,  I get the lie on the commuter. He also said he'd vote for me in the forums if he couldn't vote for himself, which gives me a town read. I don't think scum!arch would be willing to give it to someone who's town. Then again this might have been a ploy, but I doubt it.

I'm actually torn on Arch's lying. Sure, it all makes sense within the town narrative. But it's also convenient for him how he can get to LyLo as a claimed Cop variant without ever having to give a result. That's a question for tomorrow though, today we lynch Axxle.

[Axxle]

Who did archetype shoot in that case?

[Axxle]

If you think I'm scum and not arch, is DD the last scum?

[faust]

That leaves faust/arch, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

If it's me/arch, it'd be a lot easier for us to win if arch just claimed to have a guilty on faust.

You know it's not me and you.

Therefore if there's a 2 man scumteam it's faust/arch.

Tell me Axxle, how do YOU know it's not DeDe? Or are you just buddying him to get him to mislynch me?

[faust]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

What exactly excludes an Axxle/Arch scumteam? That Arch didn't claim to have investigated me? But I had already claimed my result on Axxle, and maybe Arch thought I would be believed over him. Plus, Arch needed a convincing narrative to explain why he's still alive if he's going to claim I am scum.

Note that Arch in fact DID claim he sensored me, only to make a turnaround later.

[faust]

faust has lurked all day today.  Come back and talk to us faust!

That's unfair. Monday was a holiday in Germany, so sorry if I haven't been here.

[Axxle]

That leaves faust/arch, arch/axxel, me/axxel.

If it's me/arch, it'd be a lot easier for us to win if arch just claimed to have a guilty on faust.

You know it's not me and you.

Therefore if there's a 2 man scumteam it's faust/arch.

Tell me Axxle, how do YOU know it's not DeDe? Or are you just buddying him to get him to mislynch me?

Because the only way you'd lie is if you had a partner, and that's a lot more likely to be archetype because of the kill choice and who you decided to "track".

[faust]

Who did archetype shoot in that case?

You, probably? And you were bulletproof.

[faust]

If you think I'm scum and not arch, is DD the last scum?

That would be implied, yes. I'm not actually sure Arch is town. DeDe at least doesn't seem to be your scum partner, if he is, that's quite the show you're doing here. He could conceivably be opposing scum though.

[Axxle]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

What exactly excludes an Axxle/Arch scumteam? That Arch didn't claim to have investigated me? But I had already claimed my result on Axxle, and maybe Arch thought I would be believed over him. Plus, Arch needed a convincing narrative to explain why he's still alive if he's going to claim I am scum.

Note that Arch in fact DID claim he sensored me, only to make a turnaround later.

And how easy that push would have been. I need to fakeclaim a weak cop and failing at getting night actions in more often.

[Axxle]

Who did archetype shoot in that case?

You, probably? And you were bulletproof.

I know you're lying about my targeting, but to an outsider...

That's decent reasoning. I'll think more on it.

Bus drivers and redirectors are bastard, right?

[faust]

Who did archetype shoot in that case?

You, probably? And you were bulletproof.

I know you're lying about my targeting, but to an outsider...

That's decent reasoning. I'll think more on it.

Bus drivers and redirectors are bastard, right?

No. I think we have seen both in Normal games here.

[Axxle]

But only open/semi open games?

[faust]

But only open/semi open games?

Would need to check. There have certainly been closed RMM games with Redirection. And since we have already seen a Nexus, I wouldn't take it out of consideration.

[Delirious Deleuze]

But only open/semi open games?

Would need to check. There have certainly been closed RMM games with Redirection. And since we have already seen a Nexus, I wouldn't take it out of consideration.

But I'd assume that whoever bused or redirected is town, since mafia had nexus. Why wouldn't they just claim?

[faust]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

Looking at it again, this post really gives me the heebie jeebies. DeDe is implicitly assuming

A) There is a 2-player scum team.
B) Axxle and Archetype can't be in the same team.

Assumption A is just completely baseless. All we know is that we had only one kill. There are multiple explanations for this. Either mafia targeted Archetype (okay, I guess from DeDe's point of view, this would mean that I am scum), or mafia targeted the SK (or someone else, for that matter), who is bulletproof. Why must there be a three-person team?

Assumption B is equally problematic, as I already laid out. There is no reason to believe that Axxle and Arch can't be on the same team.

[faust]

But only open/semi open games?

Would need to check. There have certainly been closed RMM games with Redirection. And since we have already seen a Nexus, I wouldn't take it out of consideration.

But I'd assume that whoever bused or redirected is town, since mafia had nexus. Why wouldn't they just claim?

Why can't the redirector be on the other scum team?

[faust]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

Looking at it again, this post really gives me the heebie jeebies. DeDe is implicitly assuming

A) There is a 2-player scum team.
B) Axxle and Archetype can't be in the same team.

Assumption A is just completely baseless. All we know is that we had only one kill. There are multiple explanations for this. Either mafia targeted Archetype (okay, I guess from DeDe's point of view, this would mean that I am scum), or mafia targeted the SK (or someone else, for that matter), who is bulletproof. Why must there be a threetwo-person team?

Assumption B is equally problematic, as I already laid out. There is no reason to believe that Axxle and Arch can't be on the same team.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

Looking at it again, this post really gives me the heebie jeebies. DeDe is implicitly assuming

A) There is a 2-player scum team.
B) Axxle and Archetype can't be in the same team.

Assumption A is just completely baseless. All we know is that we had only one kill. There are multiple explanations for this. Either mafia targeted Archetype (okay, I guess from DeDe's point of view, this would mean that I am scum), or mafia targeted the SK (or someone else, for that matter), who is bulletproof. Why must there be a three-person team?

Assumption B is equally problematic, as I already laid out. There is no reason to believe that Axxle and Arch can't be on the same team.

Dude, this is just wrong. You're OMGUS attitude also makes me Vote: Faust. You are 100% scum.

So, two scenarios. Axxel is scum, or he's not.

So let's say he's town, then you and arch are scum. You're partners too, otherwise Arch. would have rolled with a kill on you.

Arch: You know you're town, I'm guessing, which leaves us with Faust and Axxel being scum.

I doubt that mafia or a SK had redirecting since WW had nexus. That's really a moot point either way. We can't prove anything. Logically, in most scenarios, you're scum.

So let's say he's scum and you're not lying. Then he has to be a SK or mafia with arch. He can't be part of a three person mafia because of flavour.

So he's either partners with Arch or he's a SK.

He can't be partners with Arch. Arch would have rolled with his read on you and got you lynched. Plus, why would Axxel be the largest proponent of a two-person mafia team? That simply doesn't make sense, especially when the more general consensus was a SK. And why would Arch lie and then tell of his lie? This just doesn't seem like a true scenario.

So Axxel is the SK. Sweetness. That leaves mafia to you or arch. Again, if arch was mafia he would have just rolled on his read for you. Doesn't make much sense.

That leaves you being mafia. You thought you'd get a lynch on the SK then be free to kill tonight, get it down to 2-1 tomorrow and then hope for the best.

Now you may have a mafia PR of 1-shot lynchproof or something like this, because then it would be perfect to lynch axxel, get your kill and win.

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

What exactly excludes an Axxle/Arch scumteam? That Arch didn't claim to have investigated me? But I had already claimed my result on Axxle, and maybe Arch thought I would be believed over him. Plus, Arch needed a convincing narrative to explain why he's still alive if he's going to claim I am scum.

Note that Arch in fact DID claim he sensored me, only to make a turnaround later.

This is pretty flimsy. He could have said you killed Andrew, and you're honest about axxel. Then you'd be dead and his narrative still works.

I'm secure in this vote. Let's how this plays out.

[Delirious Deleuze]

By the way. That's L-1. Go ahead scum... Hammer.

[Archetype]

Do you have actual evidence that there was a second kill attempt last night?

Dd, they didn't both target Andrew.  The flavor has been very consistent, and it's clear only door tossing killed him.

We're missing a NK. I'm a claimed psuedo-cop who commuted. The logical explanation is that someone tried to kill me and failed.

Except Andrew isn't a logical choice at all, so he could have been killed instead of you somehow.  It seems like if there were two kills, they either both would have wanted to kill you, or the scum on the wagon would have tried to kill me, and the scum off the wagon would try to kill you.

If there is any more information you haven't shared, I think now would be a good time.

There's no other information to share.

Andrew was not-Mafia in my eyes and I never understood everyone else's scumread on him. I think Axxle killed Andrew because he knew that the SK (Faust) would kill me because he would be lynched the next day if he didn't (Since I'd cop him) and/or he knew my DeDo was a 1-shot Commuter (which he stated previously made the most sense).

Questions:

1. How would Axxle "know" that I'm a SK?
2. If Axxle really somehow was sure I was SK, why kill Andrew and not me? Or why kill Andrew or not EFHW? I think the most logical things for scum to do are A) going after the third faction, B) going after confirmed town, C) going after claimed PRs. Yet you claim scum would not choose any of these options.

1. No idea. But that was under the assumption that flavor didn't matter. Now I'm certain that you tried to kill me, hence why you deemed yourself "conf!Town" when the day opened.
2. You're the one who Tracked Axxle. What do you think he did?

[Archetype]

I'm sorry, but Axxle just has to be scum. There's 2 scum out of Axxle/Faust/DD and guaranteed 1 between Axxle/Faust. Axxle's interactions with WW and Teproc should make it obvious that he's their partner. Faust's selfish acts (In the context of this game) like voting for himself to recieve the prize and DD's willingness to just have no one get the prize should make it clear that Faust is the SK. So we should be lynching between Faust/Axxle certainly, but I prefer Axxle because I fear that if I'm NK'd tonight he won't be lynched in LyLo.

Me voting for myself wasn't selfish, it was the only logical thing to do as town. What other selfish acts are you referring to?

I didn't realize your scumread on Axxle and Andrew.

[Archetype]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

No way I'm voting for Faust now. All Axxle has to do then is leave me alive and he wins.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Vote: Faust. This needs to happen.

Axxel's right. It must be Axxel and faust, or faust/arch. Either way Faust is going to be scum. We need to kill him first.

We lynch faust, he turns up scum either way.

Now the question is Axxel or Arch tomorrow. That's the new LyLo scenario.

If arch is alive tomorrow, he's scum. Scum!Axxel would kill arch because he'd be able to use timid sensor to figure out if he's scum. Scum!Arch obviously couldn't.

So if arch dies, then it's EFHW, me, and Axxel. We'll lynch Axxel.

If Axxel dies, it's EFHW, me, Arch. We lynch him.

No way I'm voting for Faust now. All Axxle has to do then is leave me alive and he wins.

Hey. Look at this. He didn't hammer. So Faust is scum

[faust]

The fact the Arch didn't hammer... means he's not Axxle's partner. Well, that's something. But not worth trying this at this point. DeDe is either careless town or (much more likely now) scum.

[faust]

Man, I can't believe you're going to let Axxle get away with this.

[Delirious Deleuze]

The fact the Arch didn't hammer... means he's not Axxle's partner. Well, that's something. But not worth trying this at this point. DeDe is either careless town or (much more likely now) scum.

No because Axxel is scum, by your read, then one of us three is his partner or mafia.

Arch isn't mafia or his partner. So it's you whose mafia. Arch is confirmed town because he just could have won. You had the most reason to kill arch. It's obviously you here.

[faust]

Many major logical flaws in this post. Gonna point out the biggest ones.

Dude, this is just wrong. You're OMGUS attitude also makes me Vote: Faust. You are 100% scum.

So, two scenarios. Axxel is scum, or he's not.

So let's say he's town, then you and arch are scum. You're partners too, otherwise Arch. would have rolled with a kill on you.

If Arch was scum in this scenario, and not my partner, how would he know I was scum?

Arch: You know you're town, I'm guessing, which leaves us with Faust and Axxel being scum.

How is it you're thinking you're conf!town?

I doubt that mafia or a SK had redirecting since WW had nexus. That's really a moot point either way. We can't prove anything. Logically, in most scenarios, you're scum.

"In most scenarios" now? I thought before you said I am 100% scum?

So let's say he's scum and you're not lying. Then he has to be a SK or mafia with arch. He can't be part of a three person mafia because of flavour.

So he's either partners with Arch or he's a SK.

He can't be partners with Arch. Arch would have rolled with his read on you and got you lynched. Plus, why would Axxel be the largest proponent of a two-person mafia team? That simply doesn't make sense, especially when the more general consensus was a SK. And why would Arch lie and then tell of his lie? This just doesn't seem like a true scenario.

As I said, Arch would be extremely suspicious for being alive. No way he could have just rolled with my lynch. Why he told of his lie? No idea, maybe he and Axxle had Daychat, and Axxle pointed out that this wasn't safe.

So Axxel is the SK. Sweetness. That leaves mafia to you or arch. Again, if arch was mafia he would have just rolled on his read for you. Doesn't make much sense.

Why would he? If Arch was scum and there is opposing scum, he wants to lynch them today, not me.

This is pretty flimsy. He could have said you killed Andrew, and you're honest about axxel. Then you'd be dead and his narrative still works.

I'm secure in this vote. Let's how this plays out.

Except for the part where it doesn't make any sense for scum!me to not kill Archetype.

[faust]

The fact the Arch didn't hammer... means he's not Axxle's partner. Well, that's something. But not worth trying this at this point. DeDe is either careless town or (much more likely now) scum.

No because Axxel is scum, by your read, then one of us three is his partner or mafia.

Arch isn't mafia or his partner. So it's you whose mafia. Arch is confirmed town because he just could have won. You had the most reason to kill arch. It's obviously you here.

That again is in no way true because there might be two opposing scum factions. Man, without my result on Axxle I would so be voting for you right now.

[yuma]

Vote Count 5.4:

faust (2):  Axxle, DD (L-1)
Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[faust]

I think now it's by far most likely that Axxle and DeDe are scum, with an outside chance of Archetype. We should lynch Axxle and see whether he flips SK or mafia/werewolf and continue from there sorting things out.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Many major logical flaws in this post. Gonna point out the biggest ones.

Dude, this is just wrong. You're OMGUS attitude also makes me Vote: Faust. You are 100% scum.

So, two scenarios. Axxel is scum, or he's not.

So let's say he's town, then you and arch are scum. You're partners too, otherwise Arch. would have rolled with a kill on you.

If Arch was scum in this scenario, and not my partner, how would he know I was scum?

Arch: You know you're town, I'm guessing, which leaves us with Faust and Axxel being scum.

How is it you're thinking you're conf!town?

I doubt that mafia or a SK had redirecting since WW had nexus. That's really a moot point either way. We can't prove anything. Logically, in most scenarios, you're scum.

"In most scenarios" now? I thought before you said I am 100% scum?

So let's say he's scum and you're not lying. Then he has to be a SK or mafia with arch. He can't be part of a three person mafia because of flavour.

So he's either partners with Arch or he's a SK.

He can't be partners with Arch. Arch would have rolled with his read on you and got you lynched. Plus, why would Axxel be the largest proponent of a two-person mafia team? That simply doesn't make sense, especially when the more general consensus was a SK. And why would Arch lie and then tell of his lie? This just doesn't seem like a true scenario.

As I said, Arch would be extremely suspicious for being alive. No way he could have just rolled with my lynch. Why he told of his lie? No idea, maybe he and Axxle had Daychat, and Axxle pointed out that this wasn't safe.

So Axxel is the SK. Sweetness. That leaves mafia to you or arch. Again, if arch was mafia he would have just rolled on his read for you. Doesn't make much sense.

Why would he? If Arch was scum and there is opposing scum, he wants to lynch them today, not me.

This is pretty flimsy. He could have said you killed Andrew, and you're honest about axxel. Then you'd be dead and his narrative still works.

I'm secure in this vote. Let's how this plays out.

Except for the part where it doesn't make any sense for scum!me to not kill Archetype.

I'm sorry. You're right. I was careless, I thought it was a full-proof way to prove you're scum. I didn't think it through if Arch. was mafia and Axxel was town.

Arch couldn't hammer without dying at night. I didn't think this through well enough.

But at least we know Arch and Axxel are not partners.

We should definitely lynch axxel, then see the flip. If he's town, then you're scum and we kill you tomorrow. Easy enough.

Sorry for the risk I took. I thought it was logically, but I couldn't really say what my plan was before I did it...

Vote: Axxel.

[Axxle]

UNVOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Axxle]

Do you remember my point that you, Faust, and archetype put me at freaking L1 yesterday? The Andrew kill makes no sense. Zero. Less than nothing.

[Archetype]

But Faust, you did try and kill me. But I commuted.

[Archetype]

Also, please Unvote DD. EFHW and I need to vote together for my power to work.

[Axxle]

Many major logical flaws in this post. Gonna point out the biggest ones.

Dude, this is just wrong. You're OMGUS attitude also makes me Vote: Faust. You are 100% scum.

So, two scenarios. Axxel is scum, or he's not.

So let's say he's town, then you and arch are scum. You're partners too, otherwise Arch. would have rolled with a kill on you.

If Arch was scum in this scenario, and not my partner, how would he know I was scum?

he doesn't, he just would want to mislynch you for the win

Arch: You know you're town, I'm guessing, which leaves us with Faust and Axxel being scum.

How is it you're thinking you're conf!town?

If arch is town he has to assume you're scum so dd's point is valid

I doubt that mafia or a SK had redirecting since WW had nexus. That's really a moot point either way. We can't prove anything. Logically, in most scenarios, you're scum.

"In most scenarios" now? I thought before you said I am 100% scum?

im sorry I brought it up

So let's say he's scum and you're not lying. Then he has to be a SK or mafia with arch. He can't be part of a three person mafia because of flavour.

So he's either partners with Arch or he's a SK.

He can't be partners with Arch. Arch would have rolled with his read on you and got you lynched. Plus, why would Axxel be the largest proponent of a two-person mafia team? That simply doesn't make sense, especially when the more general consensus was a SK. And why would Arch lie and then tell of his lie? This just doesn't seem like a true scenario.

As I said, Arch would be extremely suspicious for being alive. No way he could have just rolled with my lynch. Why he told of his lie? No idea, maybe he and Axxle had Daychat, and Axxle pointed out that this wasn't safe.

there have been a lot of strange kills.  Archetype could have just claimed using commuter AND using his investigation

So Axxel is the SK. Sweetness. That leaves mafia to you or arch. Again, if arch was mafia he would have just rolled on his read for you. Doesn't make much sense.

Why would he? If Arch was scum and there is opposing scum, he wants to lynch them today, not me.

There was no mafia kill

This is pretty flimsy. He could have said you killed Andrew, and you're honest about axxel. Then you'd be dead and his narrative still works.

I'm secure in this vote. Let's how this plays out.

Except for the part where it doesn't make any sense for scum!me to not kill Archetype.

except you're on a team

[Axxle]

But Faust, you did try and kill me. But I commuted.

Theory dead I guess.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Sorry!!!

Unvote!

[Axxle]

unvote

[Axxle]

Maybe a DD, Faust scum team? They didn't kill archetype since they could just accuse me and arch being a scum team? I don't know...

Remembering the nexus reminds me that normal games here mean something completely different so meh. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

[EFHW]

Axxle's interactions with WW and Teproc should make it obvious that he's their partner.

Have you explained this?  I don't know what interactions you are referring to.

[EFHW]

However, we should NOT go after the SK today. If we're wrong, there are 2 NKs and we lose for sure. At least by lynching axxel and getting a good idea of who is the SK we can have a chance to win.

This logic doesn't make sense. If we assume there is 1 mafia and 1 sk left and we mislynch, regardless of who we go for, we lose unless scum target each other, which they should since 1 sk, 1 mafia is going to cause them both to lose anyway.

If we assume 2 memebers of a second faction then we need to target them for the right lynch, otherwise we straight up lose.

Well, we know you're scum, so the question is lynch you or find the SK.

DD you aren't making sense here, I think.  If you believe faust's claim and that faust is town, then you should already be convinced that Axxle and Arch are the scum.  Or do you think scum!faust could be the human child telling the truth about Axxle?  And why do you assume Axxle would be human child and not SK, when it was clearly not a human child who nk'd Andrew?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.5:

Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (4):  EFHW, Arch, DD, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

I think now it's by far most likely that Axxle and DeDe are scum, with an outside chance of Archetype. We should lynch Axxle and see whether he flips SK or mafia/werewolf and continue from there sorting things out.

DD and Archetype cannot both be the scum b/c then you would not be reporting your finding on Axxle.

[Delirious Deleuze]

However, we should NOT go after the SK today. If we're wrong, there are 2 NKs and we lose for sure. At least by lynching axxel and getting a good idea of who is the SK we can have a chance to win.

This logic doesn't make sense. If we assume there is 1 mafia and 1 sk left and we mislynch, regardless of who we go for, we lose unless scum target each other, which they should since 1 sk, 1 mafia is going to cause them both to lose anyway.

If we assume 2 memebers of a second faction then we need to target them for the right lynch, otherwise we straight up lose.

Well, we know you're scum, so the question is lynch you or find the SK.

DD you aren't making sense here, I think.  If you believe faust's claim and that faust is town, then you should already be convinced that Axxle and Arch are the scum.  Or do you think scum!faust could be the human child telling the truth about Axxle?  And why do you assume Axxle would be human child and not SK, when it was clearly not a human child who nk'd Andrew?

No you're right. That's why I changed what I think.

I think it's mafia!faust SK!axxel

[Archetype]

Man, ok.

I think both Axxke and Faust are scum. I don't really who is what or whatever because I know I'm Town, DD is town, and EFHW is town. That means Faust and Axxle have to be scum.

I don't really care what order, but I think lynching Faust first will solidify whether or not DD really is Town.

Ranked from most likely to least likely...
If Faust is a Human Child, Axxle has to be SK.
If Faust is a second scum team, I'll need to rethink DD
If faust is SK, DD is scum 
If Faust is Town, well, I have no idea

[Axxle]

Vote: Faust

For me that still makes the most sense.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I agree, but EFHW and Arch should be the other two. Just so arch can use his power. I don't want to rely just on logic.

[Archetype]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.6:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (4):  EFHW, Arch, DD

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.7:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (2):  Axxle, DD

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

unvote it think is what you want?

[Delirious Deleuze]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

I'm still confused. You power, as you described it, should work the same no matter whose on the wagon

[Archetype]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

If its me/EFHW/DD, I can investigate DD. However, since I think Axxle is most likely a SK, he could have some sort of Investigation Immunity. Minor thing, but could be problomatic if its true.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

If its me/EFHW/DD, I can investigate DD. However, since I think Axxle is most likely a SK, he could have some sort of Investigation Immunity. Minor thing, but could be problomatic if its true.

Oh okay cool

[EFHW]

Why is DD town?

[Archetype]

In the back of my mind I've been having this nagging feeling that there really are two scum teams. Nothing really else to talk about until EFHW arrives, so I'll share it to get others' thoughts.

Let's say I'm ash and I want to design a multiball game. Assuming 2 2-man teams, 4 scum is a lot of scum for Town to lynch and there's no guarantee that scum will hit each other. To combat both these problems, ash includes 2 ICs. Now scum have 2 less people to worry about being the other team and town have 2 less people to worry about mislynching. With the houses, this creates a cool feeling where if each member is in a different house, they have no idea what's going on in the 3rd house. This makes generally town items useful for scum (and explains the first spying item). It makes yuma's power better (more likely to hit scum) and makes my power much weaker when I investigate a large group of unknowns. It also explains the weird kills.

The thing that may debunk this theory is the Andrew kill. If there are 2 2-man scum teams, why would one shoot try to shoot for the other when it's likely they're all dead?

I still think faust is scum. I'll probably still reread just to make sure an Axxle/DD pairing isn't possible.

[Archetype]

Why is DD town?

I feel like I've explained this a lot.

To reply to Axxle...

DeDe has both Teproc and WW as town reads. Not sure if scum would do that.

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

D2 doesn't give much, but I think DeDe's and Andrew's reactions to Robz' claim were on the scummier side.

D3, there's this: DeDe apparently forgetting that there is a Janitor. I think it's genuine, which would mean that DeDe is not Teproc's partner. Then, DeDe has his turn on WW, which at the time I found scummy, but knowing that WW is scum, it looks better.
ad to choose someone for the WW kill, it would likely be Andrew, but then again, would SK!Andrew makes such an obvious move?

I agree with the majority of this by Faust. I disagree with the "putting both Teproc and WW as Townreads means he's not their partner". This is DD's 2nd (?) game and I could see him putting them both as Townreads as newbie scum.

There's also a couple of QT things that I will not be disclosing (unless EFHW asks me to).

Recently, he's seemed a bit confused. Which I find towny.

[faust]

Why is DD town?

I feel like I've explained this a lot.

To reply to Axxle...

DeDe has both Teproc and WW as town reads. Not sure if scum would do that.

Then WW tries to start a wagon on mail-mi short before deadline. Knowing that the main lynch alternative is joth (hence town), I don't think mail-mi is his partner. Teproc switches on this wagon later on.

D2 doesn't give much, but I think DeDe's and Andrew's reactions to Robz' claim were on the scummier side.

D3, there's this: DeDe apparently forgetting that there is a Janitor. I think it's genuine, which would mean that DeDe is not Teproc's partner. Then, DeDe has his turn on WW, which at the time I found scummy, but knowing that WW is scum, it looks better.
ad to choose someone for the WW kill, it would likely be Andrew, but then again, would SK!Andrew makes such an obvious move?

I agree with the majority of this by Faust. I disagree with the "putting both Teproc and WW as Townreads means he's not their partner". This is DD's 2nd (?) game and I could see him putting them both as Townreads as newbie scum.

There's also a couple of QT things that I will not be disclosing (unless EFHW asks me to).

Recently, he's seemed a bit confused. Which I find towny.

Err... this doesn't explain your read at all. And he's not confused recently, he's jumping every wagon he sees to get a lynch trough before people start considering him. Let's try something else: Why am I scum?

[faust]

You're all acting ridiculously careless, DeDe especially. Arch could ave hammered me by now f he was either Axxle's or DeDe's partner.

[faust]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

If its me/EFHW/DD, I can investigate DD. However, since I think Axxle is most likely a SK, he could have some sort of Investigation Immunity. Minor thing, but could be problomatic if its true.

This looks a little like a grab for towncred, because it doesn't make sense. If what you previously claimed was true, you could investigate both DeDe and Axxle, no matter who of them is on the wagon. Or did you lie about that as well?

[faust]

So, I'm gonna simplify it for you.

So I claimed a result on Axxle. Now there are four possibilities.

1. Axxle is town, I am town.

This would sure suck, but it's improbable. It would make DeDe/Arch the remaining scum. One of them would have needed to Bus Drive/Redirect me. They won't do that. What scum wants in this scenario is to redirect opposing scum to themselves, hoping to kill them. There's no way to achieve this that would end up in me being redirected to one of DeDe/arch, I think.

2. Axxle is scum, I am town.

That's how it is (99%), but of course you don't know this. But in this scenario, we should obviously lynch Axxle.

3. Axxle is town, I am scum.

That's really the crucial scenario. As already pointed out, the only way it makes sense for scum!me to fakeclaim here is if I have a partner, because once Axxle flips town, I would be obv!scum, and either the opposing scum or town would kill me. So I have a partner, great. Who is it? Can only be Archetype or DeDe.

3.1 Arch is my partner

If he's my partner, we only need one mislynch. Why would he not jump on the Axxle wagon, instead claiming a result on me and push me hard? That makes no sense. Arch/me as a team would certainly have managed to get Axxle lynched.

3.2 DeDe is my partner

Same question arises here. It would have been easy enough for DeDe to just remain on Axxle, arguing "they're both scum anyway, let's lynch Axxle first". Instead he does this incredible back-and-forth. It just makes no sense.

4. Axxle is scum, I am scum

Well, doesn't really matter if we kill Axxle first then, does it?


So what exactly are the reasons to lynch me over Axxle?

[EFHW]

You're all acting ridiculously careless, DeDe especially. Arch could ave hammered me by now f he was either Axxle's or DeDe's partner.

I agree.  What's the rush?

[EFHW]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

If its me/EFHW/DD, I can investigate DD. However, since I think Axxle is most likely a SK, he could have some sort of Investigation Immunity. Minor thing, but could be problomatic if its true.

This looks a little like a grab for towncred, because it doesn't make sense. If what you previously claimed was true, you could investigate both DeDe and Axxle, no matter who of them is on the wagon. Or did you lie about that as well?

If he has two people he suspects, they need to be one on the wagon and one off.

[EFHW]

Since Axxle, Arch and DD really want to lynch faust, I think we should lynch Axxle.  This will give us the same amount of information about both of them.  Actually more, since even if faust flips town, there is still the remote possibility his result was tampered with somehow.

[faust]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

If its me/EFHW/DD, I can investigate DD. However, since I think Axxle is most likely a SK, he could have some sort of Investigation Immunity. Minor thing, but could be problomatic if its true.

This looks a little like a grab for towncred, because it doesn't make sense. If what you previously claimed was true, you could investigate both DeDe and Axxle, no matter who of them is on the wagon. Or did you lie about that as well?

If he has two people he suspects, they need to be one on the wagon and one off.

Yes, but he asked DeDe to vote and Axxle to unvote, which doesn't make sense, right?

[EFHW]

My point is that there is definitely 1 scum and maybe 2 in Arch/Axxle/DD, and their recent spirit of cooperation is worrisome.  It is still possible though, that faust is scum with a positive investigation result on the other one, so we won't know faust's alignment even if Axxle flips scum.  So it's not the same information.

[EFHW]

I would like you to be the 3rd voter, DD, if Axxle wouldn't mind.

For sure, but why?

Vote: Faust.

If its me/EFHW/DD, I can investigate DD. However, since I think Axxle is most likely a SK, he could have some sort of Investigation Immunity. Minor thing, but could be problomatic if its true.

This looks a little like a grab for towncred, because it doesn't make sense. If what you previously claimed was true, you could investigate both DeDe and Axxle, no matter who of them is on the wagon. Or did you lie about that as well?

If he has two people he suspects, they need to be one on the wagon and one off.

Yes, but he asked DeDe to vote and Axxle to unvote, which doesn't make sense, right?

well yeah, since he can pick whether to ask if there is scum on the wagon or if there is scum off the wagon.

[EFHW]

If you are lynched and flip scum, though, then asking is there scum off the wagon doesn't help, b/c the answer will be yes b/c you would be off wagon.  So the person he investigates needs to be on wagon.  Since he thinks Axxle is SK, and could be investigation-immune, he wants himself, me and DD on the wagon.

If we lynch Axxle, one of you and DD but not both should be on the wagon.

[EFHW]

That time I was SK in Modern Community, I had a targeting restriction.  I could only target people whose wagons had reached the halfway point during the day.  I've been wondering if there is some kind of targeting restriction happening here that would explain the weird kills, but so far I don't see a pattern.

The restriction was very problematic, and I had no buffs. If it's happening here, I'm sure the SK has at least one but probably two buffs.

[faust]

If you are lynched and flip scum, though, then asking is there scum off the wagon doesn't help, b/c the answer will be yes b/c you would be off wagon.  So the person he investigates needs to be on wagon.  Since he thinks Axxle is SK, and could be investigation-immune, he wants himself, me and DD on the wagon.

If we lynch Axxle, one of you and DD but not both should be on the wagon.

Ah, see, I didn't consider that from Arch's perspective, the expected outcome is that I flip scum. You're right of course.

[faust]

That time I was SK in Modern Community, I had a targeting restriction.  I could only target people whose wagons had reached the halfway point during the day.  I've been wondering if there is some kind of targeting restriction happening here that would explain the weird kills, but so far I don't see a pattern.

The restriction was very problematic, and I had no buffs. If it's happening here, I'm sure the SK has at least one but probably two buffs.

Hmm... would fit with the Tribute character of the game.

[EFHW]

The theory doesn't work, though, b/c ADK was killed by the mafia, not the SK.  The SK killed Robz.

[Delirious Deleuze]

That time I was SK in Modern Community, I had a targeting restriction.  I could only target people whose wagons had reached the halfway point during the day.  I've been wondering if there is some kind of targeting restriction happening here that would explain the weird kills, but so far I don't see a pattern.

The restriction was very problematic, and I had no buffs. If it's happening here, I'm sure the SK has at least one but probably two buffs.

Hmm... would fit with the Tribute character of the game.

What are buffs?

[Delirious Deleuze]

If you are lynched and flip scum, though, then asking is there scum off the wagon doesn't help, b/c the answer will be yes b/c you would be off wagon.  So the person he investigates needs to be on wagon.  Since he thinks Axxle is SK, and could be investigation-immune, he wants himself, me and DD on the wagon.

If we lynch Axxle, one of you and DD but not both should be on the wagon.

How about we lynch Axxle, with Faust on the wagon. Arch investigates Faust.

If Axxle flips town, then we have the answer to why Faust is lying, if Axxle is scum, then we know if Faust is the mafia or me. The only caveat is that this wouldn't work if arch is mafia.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Also, unvote

[EFHW]

That is a decent plan.

[faust]

If you are lynched and flip scum, though, then asking is there scum off the wagon doesn't help, b/c the answer will be yes b/c you would be off wagon.  So the person he investigates needs to be on wagon.  Since he thinks Axxle is SK, and could be investigation-immune, he wants himself, me and DD on the wagon.

If we lynch Axxle, one of you and DD but not both should be on the wagon.

How about we lynch Axxle, with Faust on the wagon. Arch investigates Faust.

If Axxle flips town, then we have the answer to why Faust is lying, if Axxle is scum, then we know if Faust is the mafia or me. The only caveat is that this wouldn't work if arch is mafia.

I am fine with that.

[EFHW]

That time I was SK in Modern Community, I had a targeting restriction.  I could only target people whose wagons had reached the halfway point during the day.  I've been wondering if there is some kind of targeting restriction happening here that would explain the weird kills, but so far I don't see a pattern.

The restriction was very problematic, and I had no buffs. If it's happening here, I'm sure the SK has at least one but probably two buffs.

Hmm... would fit with the Tribute character of the game.

What are buffs?

Protections, like bulletproof, lynchproof, investigation-immune.

[Delirious Deleuze]

That time I was SK in Modern Community, I had a targeting restriction.  I could only target people whose wagons had reached the halfway point during the day.  I've been wondering if there is some kind of targeting restriction happening here that would explain the weird kills, but so far I don't see a pattern.

The restriction was very problematic, and I had no buffs. If it's happening here, I'm sure the SK has at least one but probably two buffs.

Hmm... would fit with the Tribute character of the game.

What are buffs?

Protections, like bulletproof, lynchproof, investigation-immune.

Oh okay cool.

So should we wait and talk and gain info? Faust is already on the wagon, so I'm good to go where I am.

[Axxle]

Since Axxle, Arch and DD really want to lynch faust, I think we should lynch Axxle.  This will give us the same amount of information about both of them.  Actually more, since even if faust flips town, there is still the remote possibility his result was tampered with somehow.

Have you actually read any of the arguments I've made? If either arch or dd refused to lynch Faust at this point, if we *do* end up lynching Faust it would be immediately obvious who his partner is.

[EFHW]

Since Axxle, Arch and DD really want to lynch faust, I think we should lynch Axxle.  This will give us the same amount of information about both of them.  Actually more, since even if faust flips town, there is still the remote possibility his result was tampered with somehow.

Have you actually read any of the arguments I've made? If either arch or dd refused to lynch Faust at this point, if we *do* end up lynching Faust it would be immediately obvious who his partner is.

You are assuming scum!faust would have a partner, and I'm not sure what your argument is, anyway.  Since they are not refusing to lynch faust, that they could have isn't really relevant. 

It seems like the basis of most of your arguments has been that you would not have killed Andrew, and that just isn't helpful b/c there is no reason any one of you would have killed Andrew.  But I will look over your arguments again.

[Axxle]

Since Axxle, Arch and DD really want to lynch faust, I think we should lynch Axxle.  This will give us the same amount of information about both of them.  Actually more, since even if faust flips town, there is still the remote possibility his result was tampered with somehow.

Have you actually read any of the arguments I've made? If either arch or dd refused to lynch Faust at this point, if we *do* end up lynching Faust it would be immediately obvious who his partner is.

You are assuming scum!faust would have a partner, and I'm not sure what your argument is, anyway.  Since they are not refusing to lynch faust, that they could have isn't really relevant. 

It seems like the basis of most of your arguments has been that you would not have killed Andrew, and that just isn't helpful b/c there is no reason any one of you would have killed Andrew.  But I will look over your arguments again.

You should see why I'd assume that from my perspective.

What do you think happened last night if there was a mafia player and an sk? Who would each be and what would their possible kills be?

[Axxle]

Why wouldn't I kill Faust who had a item and a scum read on me, kill archetype who is a cop and has a scum read on me, kill efhw who is an IC, or DD who is an absolute loose cannon when it comes to voting and has a scum read on me?

It's a really really easy question to answer, it's completely and utterly against my wincon to kill Andrew over these people. Like, it's the only argument I really need because it should be able to convince most people.

Remember the past kills too. Why would I kill Yuma? He had a huge townread on me. Why would I kill any of the other players who I can't remember and I'm phone posting so don't want to look it up.

[Axxle]

Robz kill makes sense from most people.

I'd have to go back about WW, I'm pretty sure I didn't think he was scum and don't. Think he had a strong scum read on me.

[Axxle]

You said something about scum not being able to direct the kill properly. Well if no one claims they can do that it's just false.

[Delirious Deleuze]

After thinking a while, I'm fairly convinced of Axxel being scum.

His main argument is that the kills don't line up with him, but I think we're all fairly certain he has to be a SK. Why would a two person scum team shoot Andrew? They're not scum hunting? That doesn't make sense.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

That's the only way I could think to explain it.

Scum!faust then would only have to pull a lynch over on me, pretty easy as seen in other games, and then he'd win.

That being said, Arch can confirm this tonight pretty easily. Axxel's flip is sure to be some form of scum.

[Axxle]

After thinking a while, I'm fairly convinced of Axxel being scum.

His main argument is that the kills don't line up with him, but I think we're all fairly certain he has to be a SK.

That is not a rebuttal to my argument at all, it's an ad hominem.

Why would a two person scum team shoot Andrew? They're not scum hunting? That doesn't make sense.

Look at the situation we're in right now. That's the situation they wanted. To mislynch me, this is the perfect group to do it. You, faust, Archetype have all professed scumreads on me, so it's not that big of a leap to attack me today. EFHW has shown that although she recently had a townread on me, she can be swayed to vote for whoever. Probably because of the fiasco Day 3.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

If I really wanted to do that I'd have targeted you all day every day forever until the end of time. Or EFHW since mafia seems to avoid her like the plague for some reason.  Archetype said he couldn't use two abilities in one night, why could faust?

That's the only way I could think to explain it.

Well you'd be wrong.

Scum!faust then would only have to pull a lynch over on me, pretty easy as seen in other games, and then he'd win.

Sure, whatever.

That being said, Arch can confirm this tonight pretty easily. Axxel's flip is sure to be some form of scum.

You keep saying that I'm scum, but you really haven't proven it.

[Axxle]

Plus all that assumes scum faust anyway. So... what the literal fk.

[Axxle]

Vote: faust'

Archetype, you're just going to have to investigate me or something because I'm not moving my vote.

[Axxle]

Wow, scumteam with a roleblocker explains pretty much everything.

DD/faust scumteam, k thanks.

[Axxle]

Wow, scumteam with a roleblocker explains pretty much everything.

(ie, lack of Archetype kill)

[Delirious Deleuze]

After thinking a while, I'm fairly convinced of Axxel being scum.

His main argument is that the kills don't line up with him, but I think we're all fairly certain he has to be a SK.

That is not a rebuttal to my argument at all, it's an ad hominem.

It's not an ad hom if you listen to my arguments.

Why would a two person scum team shoot Andrew? They're not scum hunting? That doesn't make sense.

Look at the situation we're in right now. That's the situation they wanted. To mislynch me, this is the perfect group to do it. You, faust, Archetype have all professed scumreads on me, so it's not that big of a leap to attack me today. EFHW has shown that although she recently had a townread on me, she can be swayed to vote for whoever. Probably because of the fiasco Day 3.

I don't think this is true. Then Arch. wouldn't have lied about faust. Also, we have a better chance of winning either way if we vote for you assuming you're the Sk. I posted all this yesterday.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

If I really wanted to do that I'd have targeted you all day every day forever until the end of time. Or EFHW since mafia seems to avoid her like the plague for some reason.  Archetype said he couldn't use two abilities in one night, why could faust?

You're saying this proves nothing. I just made an arguments as to why might have targeted. The andrew kill doesn't make much sense and I think my story is just as good as your "faust is lying and he's working with arch."

That's the only way I could think to explain it.

Well you'd be wrong.

k

Scum!faust then would only have to pull a lynch over on me, pretty easy as seen in other games, and then he'd win.

Sure, whatever.

k

That being said, Arch can confirm this tonight pretty easily. Axxel's flip is sure to be some form of scum.

You keep saying that I'm scum, but you really haven't proven it.

k

Vote: faust'

Archetype, you're just going to have to investigate me or something because I'm not moving my vote.

This is so petty. If you're really town, then you wouldn't try to be abrasive to town strategies, even if you're going to get lynched.

Either way, it doesn't really matter. Faust, EFHW, Arch will lynch you, he'll investigate faust, we'll know for sure that faust is also scum, town wins.

You're really just being difficult to be difficult at this point.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Wow, scumteam with a roleblocker explains pretty much everything.

DD/faust scumteam, k thanks.

k. If faust and I were a team, we'd probably kill EFHW, and move a mislynch on one of you two (especially Andrew) the next day.

Either way, andrew kill doesn't make sense. This is a ploy to stop us from lynching you after you're confirmed scum.

[Axxle]

I don't see any difference in Archetype investigating me over you in the case that we lynch faust.

[Axxle]

And if I get lynched town loses, so... ?

[Delirious Deleuze]

And if I get lynched town loses, so... ?

But Faust has no incentive to lie if you're town... AND if faust and I were partners, we would have HAD to go after arch because he could have determined that faust was scum. Which means that can't be possible. The only way this works is if we had roleblock, but I don't see almost any evidence to support this. I also wanted to lynch faust and only changed because of what EFHW said.

Faust and Arch doesn't make sense because arch wouldn't have lied about faust.

Me and arch don't make sense because why would faust lie?

[Delirious Deleuze]

And if I get lynched town loses, so... ?

But Faust has no incentive to lie if you're town... AND if faust and I were partners, we would have HAD to go after arch because he could have determined that faust was scum. Which means that can't be possible. The only way this works is if we had roleblock, but I don't see almost any evidence to support this. I also wanted to lynch faust and only changed because of what EFHW said.

Faust and Arch doesn't make sense because arch wouldn't have lied about faust.

Me and arch don't make sense because why would faust lie?

All that's left is that you're scum.

[Axxle]

And if I get lynched town loses, so... ?

But Faust has no incentive to lie if you're town... AND if faust and I were partners, we would have HAD to go after arch because he could have determined that faust was scum.

I mentioned that a couple posts ago. One of you could be a roleblocker.

[Axxle]

Oh wait, you mention that in your post, one sec.

[Axxle]

The only way this works is if we had roleblock, but I don't see almost any evidence to support this.

It's the best explanation I can come up with, and is a very plausible one.  Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? Maybe he was roleblocked. Just maybe.

I also wanted to lynch faust and only changed because of what EFHW said.

I explained this before, you don't want to look completely unwilling to lynch faust because that will like you two completely if we do end up with the faust lynch. You had no idea what EFHW was going to say at that point.

Faust and Arch doesn't make sense because arch wouldn't have lied about faust.

Lied? You mean that stupid 'gambit' that did literally nothing? That was completely null.

Me and arch don't make sense because why would faust lie?

No argument there.

[Axxle]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

[Delirious Deleuze]

The only way this works is if we had roleblock, but I don't see almost any evidence to support this.

It's the best explanation I can come up with, and is a very plausible one.  Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? Maybe he was roleblocked. Just maybe.

I'm not buying this. If role blocking existed, why did they kill the cop? Also, this is literally one example, and not a very good one. Maybe, just maybe, Teproc didn't janitor because... We knew Yuma was town.... Because he claimed... and He died at night... So makes sense he was not scum. And both scum targeted him. There's 0 incentive to janitor him. Plus this assumes that out of 13 people, scum correctly roleblocked Teproc beyond everyone else. This is a hail mary because you're about to be lynched. I'm not buying it.

I also wanted to lynch faust and only changed because of what EFHW said.

I explained this before, you don't want to look completely unwilling to lynch faust because that will like you two completely if we do end up with the faust lynch. You had no idea what EFHW was going to say at that point.

Yeah, I put him at L-1. EFHW could have lynched him and Arch could have lynched him. And I continued to want to lynch him.

Faust and Arch doesn't make sense because arch wouldn't have lied about faust.

Lied? You mean that stupid 'gambit' that did literally nothing? That was completely null.

No, because if he was scum partners with Faust, then why would he even bring that up?! It makes no sense.

Me and arch don't make sense because why would faust lie?

No argument there.

[Archetype]

I don't see any difference in Archetype investigating me over you in the case that we lynch faust.

It doesn't matter if you see a difference. I do. I'd much rather lynch Faust, but if EFHW prefers you and you won't move your vote, then we'll lynch you instead.

[Archetype]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

[Axxle]

Regarding roleblocking: I really doubt the Janitor is X-shot, so why not janitor? I mean you have a power role so use it. It might let you claim town power roles more easily later in the game since it doesn't look like town isn't too overpowered. You wanted proof, you GOT proof. Don't say how freaking unlikely it is that they targeted someone with a power role. It's a lot more likely than your explanation of "maybe he just didn't wanna do it because LOL".

Regarding your faust vote: I explained this before, you don't want to look completely unwilling to lynch faust because that will like you two completely if we do end up with the faust lynch. You had no idea what EFHW was going to say at that point. Except that you knew that EFHW wasn't going to just come in and hammer since she wants Archetype to use his power role.

Regarding the 'gambit': Distancing without repercussion. If they are partners then they came into the day knowing that Archetype will lie about his investigation and knowing that faust will lie about his tracking.  That could have been really easily set up especially since faust just made a small reaction before disappearing.

[Axxle]

I don't see any difference in Archetype investigating me over you in the case that we lynch faust.

It doesn't matter if you see a difference. I do. I'd much rather lynch Faust, but if EFHW prefers you and you won't move your vote, then we'll lynch you instead.

We lynch faust. Me, you EFHW on the wagon, you investigate me? I'm failing to see why that's better than we lynch faust. DD, EFHW, you, and you investigate DD.

Explain that to me please.

[Axxle]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Ok, that makes sense actually. Nevermind then.

There's no proof that there's a roleblocker, but that's my best explanation for why you're still alive if there is a scumteam rather than an SK and mafia left.

[Archetype]

I'm ready to lynch Axxle. Faust is already in position for his voting, even though i prefer to investigate DD. But, its fine; faust is unlikely to be SK anyway. Are you around, EFHW?

[Archetype]

I don't see any difference in Archetype investigating me over you in the case that we lynch faust.

It doesn't matter if you see a difference. I do. I'd much rather lynch Faust, but if EFHW prefers you and you won't move your vote, then we'll lynch you instead.

We lynch faust. Me, you EFHW on the wagon, you investigate me? I'm failing to see why that's better than we lynch faust. DD, EFHW, you, and you investigate DD.

Explain that to me please.

The difference is that you are more likely SK and more likely to have Investigation Immunity. It's a very minor thing, but very easily preventable. Your turning it into a bigger deal, which makes me think you have Investigation Immuntiy is more likely true.

[Axxle]

But either one of has investigation immunity or we don't, doesn't matter who you investigate.

[Axxle]

If I'm the sk with investigative immunity, you'd get town on either me or dd

[Archetype]

If I'm the sk with investigative immunity, you'd get town on either me or dd

But I'm not looking for town results, I'm looking for scum results. And if Faust is a HC like I think he is, that would make you the SK. And since SK's almost always have II, I'm better off looking for a scum result in DD because I'm unlikely to find it in you since you'd be protected. And if I get a Town result, I'd trust it more since DD is unlikely to be a SK.

In other words, I'm pretty certain you're scum and if you aren't lynched today I'll be pushin for your lynch tommorow unless my investigation persuades me to do otherwise.

[Axxle]

Ok sure, I'll let dd help lynch Faust if you can get him to do so again. I'll unvote, whatever.

[Axxle]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Ok sure, I'll let dd help lynch Faust if you can get him to do so again. I'll unvote, whatever.

Yeah that won't happen. I think you're the SK and I'm not risking it

[Delirious Deleuze]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

This feels like classic scum being caught. You're tying to sound towns. I don't buy it. At all. You're scum

[Delirious Deleuze]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

This feels like classic scum being caught. You're tying to sound towns. I don't buy it. At all. You're scum

Sorry on phone

[Delirious Deleuze]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

[Axxle]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

[Delirious Deleuze]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

[Axxle]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

This feels like classic scum being caught. You're tying to sound towns. I don't buy it. At all. You're scum

How so?

I have to say I'd be completely and utterly disappointed with my play this game if I was an sk. I implore you to look at my previous sk games and see how I cull those who disagree with me and keep those I can manipulate.

[Archetype]

DD: Do you think I'm town?

[Delirious Deleuze]

DD: Do you think I'm town?

No, I'm not sure. That's why I want to lynch Axxel today.

[Delirious Deleuze]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

This feels like classic scum being caught. You're tying to sound towns. I don't buy it. At all. You're scum

How so?

I have to say I'd be completely and utterly disappointed with my play this game if I was an sk. I implore you to look at my previous sk games and see how I cull those who disagree with me and keep those I can manipulate.

Because you'd have nothing else left to do if you were scum, but that's null, so whatever.

And referring to your meta is pretty scummy. Scum specifically looks there so people don't figure out who there are and they change it

[Axxle]

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

This feels like classic scum being caught. You're tying to sound towns. I don't buy it. At all. You're scum

How so?

I have to say I'd be completely and utterly disappointed with my play this game if I was an sk. I implore you to look at my previous sk games and see how I cull those who disagree with me and keep those I can manipulate.

Because you'd have nothing else left to do if you were scum, but that's null, so whatever.

And referring to your meta is pretty scummy. Scum specifically looks there so people don't figure out who there are and they change it

No, I wouldn't change my meta in this situation. Why? I had something that works. You don't throw away something that works so you can *maybe* go "well I'm playing different doop doop doop" later on down the line. That's a losing strategy.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

Don't say this and completely ignore that I killed yuma. If I want more death in the game I wouldn't shoot the dayvig that had a townread on me.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.8:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (3):  EFHW, Arch, DD

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[EFHW]

scum!faust only has to have a partner if his is lying about his finding.

It's against everyone's wincon to kill Andrew.

I see that yuma did think you were town.  That's something to consider.

PPE: 41.  Posting anyway, hope you didn't lynch in the meantime!

[Axxle]

PPE: 41.

What... how... huh?

[EFHW]

After thinking a while, I'm fairly convinced of Axxel being scum.

His main argument is that the kills don't line up with him, but I think we're all fairly certain he has to be a SK. Why would a two person scum team shoot Andrew? They're not scum hunting? That doesn't make sense.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

That's the only way I could think to explain it.

Scum!faust then would only have to pull a lynch over on me, pretty easy as seen in other games, and then he'd win.

That being said, Arch can confirm this tonight pretty easily. Axxel's flip is sure to be some form of scum.

responding as I go through - there are so many problems with this post.  1.  The nk argument has been SO done already, and DD doesn't really make a relevant point there. 2. DD is SURE Axxle is scum, but his explanation of the Andrew nk ends with "the only way I could think to explain it".  You can't use it for a rationale for a scum read if you have trouble coming up with a narrative that fits!  3.  Arch will most likely die tonight and we will never learn the results of his investigation.  Saying we can rely on him confirming something sounds like scum trying to mislead town.  4. Ending with "Axxle's flip sure to be some form of scum", but there hasn't actually been any argument in favor of that conclusion.

We have not been considering DD enough.

[EFHW]

PPE: 41.

What... how... huh?

I started the post this afternoon, and came back to it now.

[EFHW]

And if I get lynched town loses, so... ?

But Faust has no incentive to lie if you're town... AND if faust and I were partners, we would have HAD to go after arch because he could have determined that faust was scum. Which means that can't be possible. The only way this works is if we had roleblock, but I don't see almost any evidence to support this. I also wanted to lynch faust and only changed because of what EFHW said.

Faust and Arch doesn't make sense because arch wouldn't have lied about faust.

Me and arch don't make sense because why would faust lie?

scum!faust has tons of incentive to lie if Axxle is town - to get a mislynch!  Again with the nk argument!  Don't go blaming the IC for your decisions.  If you don't think someone is scum, you shouldn't vote for them.  And why mention that when you have said you think Axxle is scum anyway?  I'm having a lot of trouble with these posts.

[EFHW]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

[EFHW]

I have to say that I don't think SK!Axxle would kill yuma.  An SK has to get rid of everybody.  A dayvig, if you can avoid being the target, is something you want to keep around if you are SK, unless that dayvig has a scumread on you. 

yuma almost always has a scumread on faust, so sk!faust might have wanted to kill him even though a dayvig could help get rid of people.

[EFHW]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

I'm really surprised to see Archetype make this argument.  We have no reason to believe Teproc did the kill N1.

[EFHW]

Dude, this is just wrong. You're OMGUS attitude also makes me Vote: Faust. You are 100% scum.

By the way. That's L-1. Go ahead scum... Hammer.

[EFHW]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

[Delirious Deleuze]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

[EFHW]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

you said you only switched b/c I said to.

[Delirious Deleuze]

After thinking a while, I'm fairly convinced of Axxel being scum.

His main argument is that the kills don't line up with him, but I think we're all fairly certain he has to be a SK. Why would a two person scum team shoot Andrew? They're not scum hunting? That doesn't make sense.

It does make sense, though, if scum!faust targeted Arch. and sk!axxel targeted andrew. Axxel would want more people dead b/c he's the SK and he'd be hoping to not shoot the same person mafia shoots (arch or the IC.) It makes fair enough sense that he'd pick Andrew just because he'd assume mafia wouldn't target him and then there'd be too dead?

That's the only way I could think to explain it.

Scum!faust then would only have to pull a lynch over on me, pretty easy as seen in other games, and then he'd win.

That being said, Arch can confirm this tonight pretty easily. Axxel's flip is sure to be some form of scum.

responding as I go through - there are so many problems with this post. 

1.  The nk argument has been SO done already, and DD doesn't really make a relevant point there.

Except, you know, rule out the idea of a two person mafia team, which isn't something that's been restated. At all. It was only mentioned once before. This means we're looking for a SK vs. mafia.

Under Faust's investigation, Axxel would have to be a SK. That leaves one person to be the mafia.

2. DD is SURE Axxle is scum, but his explanation of the Andrew nk ends with "the only way I could think to explain it".  You can't use it for a rationale for a scum read if you have trouble coming up with a narrative that fits! 

My narrative exist and fits. Plus narratives are stupid. We're all people and people make mistakes. The fact that Andrew died proves this. My narrative, although, at least gives some rational. The fact it isn't perfect doesn't matter, because sk!axxel might not have thought of it right either.

3.  Arch will most likely die tonight and we will never learn the results of his investigation.  Saying we can rely on him confirming something sounds like scum trying to mislead town.

If you've actually read anything going on, you'd understand none of us think that our plan is full-proof, because arch will probably die. Then Faust would just have to convince you that I'm scum, and he wins.

 4. Ending with "Axxle's flip sure to be some form of scum", but there hasn't actually been any argument in favor of that conclusion.

I'm pretty sure the fact that Faust would lose if he was lying is kind of a big argument....

We have not been considering DD enough.

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

you said you only switched b/c I said to.

And if you go back and actually reread and not pick singular sentences, you'll see my stance on faust is he's scum, but that I think it's better to lynch Axxel first.

[Axxle]

My name is Axxle.

[Archetype]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

I'm really surprised to see Archetype make this argument.  We have no reason to believe Teproc did the kill N1.

What? I only said what I said because of the argument Axxle was making, not me. Not once did I say that I believed Teproc to complete the N1 kill.

[Axxle]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

This doesn't really make sense. Yuma was contaminated and thrown through a door. If the Janitor power was blocked so would the kill.

Not if WW did the kill.

I'm really surprised to see Archetype make this argument.  We have no reason to believe Teproc did the kill N1.

What? I only said what I said because of the argument Axxle was making, not me. Not once did I say that I believed Teproc to complete the N1 kill.

To add to it, the classic Janitor only hides his the victim if he's the one who performs the kill: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Janitor
(I mean we *could* have a variant, but it's probably best to assume not?)

[Archetype]

By the way, I want to lynch faust first. Here's why:

For faust, there's 4 scenarios:
Human Child
SK
2nd scumteam
Town

For Axxle, 3 scenarios:
Human Child
2nd scumteam
Town

Lynching faust will show what Axxle is more than lynching Axxle will show what faust is. I go back to this:

Man, ok.

I think both Axxke and Faust are scum. I don't really who is what or whatever because I know I'm Town, DD is town, and EFHW is town. That means Faust and Axxle have to be scum.

I don't really care what order, but I think lynching Faust first will solidify whether or not DD really is Town.

Ranked from most likely to least likely...
If Faust is a Human Child, Axxle has to be SK.
If Faust is a second scum team, I'll need to rethink DD
If faust is SK, DD is scum 
If Faust is Town, well, I have no idea

So, let's lynch faust. DD/EFHW/Me in that order on his wagon.

[Axxle]

unvote

[Delirious Deleuze]

By the way, I want to lynch faust first. Here's why:

For faust, there's 4 scenarios:
Human Child
SK
2nd scumteam
Town

For Axxle, 3 scenarios:
Human Child
2nd scumteam
Town

Lynching faust will show what Axxle is more than lynching Axxle will show what faust is. I go back to this:

Man, ok.

I think both Axxke and Faust are scum. I don't really who is what or whatever because I know I'm Town, DD is town, and EFHW is town. That means Faust and Axxle have to be scum.

I don't really care what order, but I think lynching Faust first will solidify whether or not DD really is Town.

Ranked from most likely to least likely...
If Faust is a Human Child, Axxle has to be SK.
If Faust is a second scum team, I'll need to rethink DD
If faust is SK, DD is scum 
If Faust is Town, well, I have no idea

So, let's lynch faust. DD/EFHW/Me in that order on his wagon.

What? This makes no sense. Faust has 0 reason to be lying. Like 0.


Also why don't you have SK!axxel on that list of options? He can't be mafia.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

[Archetype]

Sorry - Human Child should be SK.

Faust could totally be lying. If Axxle is Town and you're his partner, a mislynch on Axxle guarantees your victory. And if he isn't, he could still be looking for other scum as scum.

[Archetype]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

[EFHW]

And if you go back and actually reread and not pick singular sentences, you'll see my stance on faust is he's scum, but that I think it's better to lynch Axxel first.

You put faust to L-1, dared scum to hammer, and now say you are vehemently against a faust lynch.  And there have been no compelling arguments to inspire such a turnaround.

[EFHW]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

The two of you (Arch and DD) seem to be operating with a "it must be faust and Axxle" assumption, and I just don't see how you can get there logically.  Am I missing something?  I know you aren't both scum, but one of you could be scum while the other one is getting pulled in.

I feel like most of the arguments made in the past few days have been incomplete and confusing, and at least some of them must be intended to mislead. 

[EFHW]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

[EFHW]

Check this out.  I'm not sure what to make of it, but here are Archetype, faust, and DD putting Axxle at L-1.  They all stayed there for 2 rl days.  At the end, DD switched to mail-mi, then Andrew, then mail-mi again.  The fact that no one hammered suggests to me that both scum were on this wagon.  It is also possible scum was very cautious and two of you had very good instincts.  But perhaps this can rule out Axxle having a partner?

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

Oh, and finally a motive for killing Andrew!  He had a very strong scumread on DD.

[EFHW]

Sorry, I misspoke.  I should say it is possible Axxle is scum and two of you have very good instincts.

[Axxle]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

I'm almost certain Arch could have hammered me at some point. So it's not faust/Arch.

faust/DD is my most likely bet.

Axxle/DD. Can't think of anything at the moment. (PPE I think you cleared this one though)

Axxle!Sk/ArchHC, I would have had to trust that the last HC shot Arch, otherwise I'd probably be in a pretty bad spot tomorrow. This also means that Arch would have probably shot me last night (me being bulletproof) so would know I'm an SK. I don't think he'd entertain the faust kill as much. (There's also Axxle!Sk/DDHC, right? Or am I missing something?) PPE: And I guess DD had the most motive to kill Andrew, not me.

[EFHW]

I'm almost certain Arch could have hammered me at some point. So it's not faust/Arch.

I thought so too, but haven't found it yet.

faust/DD is my most likely bet.

Axxle/DD. Can't think of anything at the moment. (PPE I think you cleared this one though)

I cleared you as partners.  Not as independently operating scum (Axxle!Sk/DDHC, DD SK/Axxle HC).  As you can no doubt gather by now, I am increasingly feeling that DD is SK.

Why not DD SK/Axxle HC or Arch SK/Axxle HC?  I may have lost track of that argument, since everyone seems to be assuming it.

Axxle!Sk/ArchHC, I would have had to trust that the last HC shot Arch, otherwise I'd probably be in a pretty bad spot tomorrow. This also means that Arch would have probably shot me last night (me being bulletproof) so would know I'm an SK. I don't think he'd entertain the faust kill as much. (There's also Axxle!Sk/DDHC, right? Or am I missing something?) PPE: And I guess DD had the most motive to kill Andrew, not me.

Yes, killing Andrew over Archetype is a questionable choice.  When I thought no one had reason to, that wasn't very compelling.  DD could have been tempted to do so, though. 

Why do you think HC!Archetype would have shot you last night, though?  I don't think that argument can clear the Axxle SK/Arch HC scenario.

[Delirious Deleuze]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

My results and votes lately are shaky, I'm sorry. This is confusing me and I'm just going with what makes sense at the time.

I'm pretty sure we know for sure Axxel has to be scum, because mafia!faust has 0 incentive to lie unless he's on a team. I don't think there's a possibility for a faust/x team.

So faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC.

Faust/Arch: They would have to be a team, otherwise Faust wouldn't lie. I just don't see why Arch would do the huge gambit with claiming faust is scum, then saying he lied. Why wouldn't he just go with the wagon and win? Plus why would they kill Andrew and not you? If they killed you, then it'd be me, axxel, andrew, faust, arch. They could easily ride the axxel train, especially since I was pretty against axxel. Or they could just say andrew, and then lynch him like we were all going to do. This approach seems backwards. God, even arch could have used timid sensor on faust, confirmed him town, they lynch someone else, and they still win. This seems like too much of a wrap around. Sure the andrew kill is stupid in any scenario, but it seems especially stupid if there's only one scum faction left.

Faust/me: We'd also have to be a team. We'd have to kill arch. because he had timid sensor. Also, I am willing to lynch faust now. I've thought, thought so more, changed my mind at least 8 times, and will continue to do so, but right now, I'm down to lynch faust. I'm pretty sure I will stay there, but I want to keep looking over the possibilities.

Axxel/DD: Two possibilities here:

1. We're a team, but then the andrew kill makes no sense, still, as above. I know you don't like this as an argument, but I think the only logical explanation for an Andrew kill was SK trying to hit mafia, or shoot someone mafia wouldn't shoot. Also, why wouldn't we shoot Arch. who could have confirmed faust as town?

2. He's a SK and I'm mafia: The only thing is scum!me wouldn't shoot arch. I'd have a lot more incentive just to shoot you or faust. There wasn't a mafia kill, so it probably was a shot vs. arch. This is definitely a possibility. I can't really figure out any more reasons this isn't a possibility.

Axxle!Sk/ArchHC:

This is only an option if mafia!Arch shot at Axxel and axxel had bulletproof, which is pretty likely. I don't know why Arch would be okay with a faust lynch though over a axxel lynch. There would be a shoot out tonight and they'd die.



I don't think faust/me or faust/arch are logical, and since those are the teams with faust, faust is either town or mafia.

This leaves me with two logical scenarios:

1. mafia!me, sk!axxel
2. mafia!faust, sk!axxel.

Now I'm fine with lynching faust or axxel, after thinking this through. I know scenario one isn't true, so that leaves me with scenario 2. Now, you guys can't trust me on that. So we should lynch axxel with faust on the wagon, since I think he's scum and I think arch thinks he's scum. It's pretty irrelevant, but faust's vote is there anyway. Since axxel is scum, then mafia is the only one left. At night, arch just will be killed. Mafia cannot have him stay alive and be able to investigate faust or me. That leaves it me, faust, EFHW. It will be down to you then EFHW. This is the best scenario I see right now.

PPE:2

[Axxle]

Vote Count 5.4:

faust (2):  Axxle, DD (L-1)
Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

But Faust, you did try and kill me. But I commuted.

[Axxle]

Why not DD SK/Axxle HC or Arch SK/Axxle HC?  I may have lost track of that argument, since everyone seems to be assuming it.

Andrew was killed by SK/2ndfaction and faust tracked me to Andrew. So either I'm SK/2ndfaction or faust is lying.

[EFHW]

Why not DD SK/Axxle HC or Arch SK/Axxle HC?  I may have lost track of that argument, since everyone seems to be assuming it.

Andrew was killed by SK/2ndfaction and faust tracked me to Andrew. So either I'm SK/2ndfaction or faust is lying.

And we are assuming SK!faust wouldn't lie b/c when you flipped town he would be lynched. ok.

[Axxle]

Why not DD SK/Axxle HC or Arch SK/Axxle HC?  I may have lost track of that argument, since everyone seems to be assuming it.

Andrew was killed by SK/2ndfaction and faust tracked me to Andrew. So either I'm SK/2ndfaction or faust is lying.

And we are assuming SK!faust wouldn't lie b/c when you flipped town he would be lynched. ok.

You asked why we weren't assuming DD SK/Axxle HC or Arch SK/Axxle HC

[EFHW]

faust!SK/DD HC  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
faust!HC/DD!SK  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
faust/DD team

faust!SK/Arch!HC  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
Arch!SK/faust!HC  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
Arch/faust team

faust!SK/Axxle!HC  Andrew killed by SK/other team, so SK!faust would be lying
Axxle!SK/faust!HC  Faust could have deduced Axxle was SK when his kill didn't go through
Axxle/faust team ??   Would teammate!faust stay on Axxle's L-1 wagon for so long?

Axxle!SK/DD!HC
DD!SK/Axxle!HC  Andrew killed by SK/other team, so town!faust would be lying
Axxle/DD team??  Would teammate!DD stay on Axxle's L-1 wagon for so long?

Axxle!SK/Arch!HC
Arch!SK/Axxle!HC  Andrew killed by SK/other team, so town!faust would be lying
Axxle/Arch team  Arch didn't hammer faust for the win

DD/Arch combinations  b/c faust wouldn't have his result

[EFHW]

Right off I see I have ruled out all the DD!SK combinations.  Interesting.

[Delirious Deleuze]

faust!SK/DD HC  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
faust!HC/DD!SK  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
faust/DD team - Why wouldn't we kill Arch? I'm also down for a faust lynch. And yes, my opinion has changed like 8 times, but after what you pointed out I know it has to be sk!axxel/mafia!faust. I explained below.

faust!SK/Arch!HC  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
Arch!SK/faust!HC  faust would be lynched when his result was shown to be a lie
Arch/faust team - I think the gambit is way to weird to go with. Also, why would arch be so willing to lynch faust?

faust!SK/Axxle!HC  Andrew killed by SK/other team, so SK!faust would be lying
Axxle!SK/faust!HC  Faust could have deduced Axxle was SK when his kill didn't go through - This is what I'm betting.
Axxle/faust team ??   Would teammate!faust stay on Axxle's L-1 wagon for so long? Why target andrew and not arch? That'd be a dangerous move for scum!faust.

Axxle!SK/DD!HC - This is a possibility.
DD!SK/Axxle!HC  Andrew killed by SK/other team, so town!faust would be lying
Axxle/DD team??  Would teammate!DD stay on Axxle's L-1 wagon for so long? - I'm very fine to lynch him.

Axxle!SK/Arch!HC - Why didn't arch shoot? Unless he hit axxel... But then why would he be okay with a faust lynch? It's be a shoot off and town would win.
Arch!SK/Axxle!HC  Andrew killed by SK/other team, so town!faust would be lying
Axxle/Arch team  Arch didn't hammer faust for the win

DD/Arch combinations  b/c faust wouldn't have his result

I'm about to go to bed, so I'll be on tomorrow if y'all keep talking.

So, Axxel is the SK or faust is lying, right?

If Faust was lying, he'd have to have a partner, or he'd lose (there'd be a shoot out at night, if he didn't die, he'd sure as hell be lynched tomorrow.) That partner would have to be me or Arch. I think I discussed both scenarios, and I don't think they're possible.

So Axxel is SK if faust doesn't have a partner option.

That leaves two options:

1. skAxxel/DDhc
2. skAxxel/Fausthc

Obviously, I'm okay with lynching either of them, because I know me. However, that's stupid.

Both of these could be argued all day. I'm sure they will. To make matters simple though, I see this one way:

So, EFHW and Arch jump on the wagon and we lynch Axxel, since he's the SK. Arch investigate faust. Then arch will probably die, then EFHW will have to decide.

[EFHW]

Those are helpful comments.  I'll be back tomorrow.

[faust]

By the way, I want to lynch faust first. Here's why:

For faust, there's 4 scenarios:
Human Child
SK
2nd scumteam
Town

For Axxle, 3 scenarios:
Human Child
2nd scumteam
Town

Lynching faust will show what Axxle is more than lynching Axxle will show what faust is. I go back to this:

Man, ok.

I think both Axxke and Faust are scum. I don't really who is what or whatever because I know I'm Town, DD is town, and EFHW is town. That means Faust and Axxle have to be scum.

I don't really care what order, but I think lynching Faust first will solidify whether or not DD really is Town.

Ranked from most likely to least likely...
If Faust is a Human Child, Axxle has to be SK.
If Faust is a second scum team, I'll need to rethink DD
If faust is SK, DD is scum 
If Faust is Town, well, I have no idea

So, let's lynch faust. DD/EFHW/Me in that order on his wagon.

This is ridiculous. You should not be asking "how many options are there", but "how likely is it that this person is scum". We don't get to lynch for information anymore, we need to lynch scum.

Plus, you haven't answered my post explaining why Axxle is the better target. If you're gonna vote for me, I need you to.

[faust]

A roleblocker would perfectly explain why Archetype wasn't killed. Remember when the Janitor didn't use his Janitor ability? I think that's pretty clear proof of a roleblocker existing.

Restating this in bold so people don't miss it.

I just wanted to say I doubt this. yuma already claimed D1, and I think the Janitor was X-shot, so scum wouldn't have gained a lot from cleaning him and might have saved their shot for later use.

[Axxle]

This is ridiculous. You should not be asking "how many options are there", but "how likely is it that this person is scum". We don't get to lynch for information anymore, we need to lynch scum.

Plus, you haven't answered my post explaining why Axxle is the better target. If you're gonna vote for me, I need you to.

So you?

If you link to your reasons again it would be easier to refute them.

[faust]

So, I'm gonna simplify it for you.

So I claimed a result on Axxle. Now there are four possibilities.

1. Axxle is town, I am town.

This would sure suck, but it's improbable. It would make DeDe/Arch the remaining scum. One of them would have needed to Bus Drive/Redirect me. They won't do that. What scum wants in this scenario is to redirect opposing scum to themselves, hoping to kill them. There's no way to achieve this that would end up in me being redirected to one of DeDe/arch, I think.

2. Axxle is scum, I am town.

That's how it is (99%), but of course you don't know this. But in this scenario, we should obviously lynch Axxle.

3. Axxle is town, I am scum.

That's really the crucial scenario. As already pointed out, the only way it makes sense for scum!me to fakeclaim here is if I have a partner, because once Axxle flips town, I would be obv!scum, and either the opposing scum or town would kill me. So I have a partner, great. Who is it? Can only be Archetype or DeDe.

3.1 Arch is my partner

If he's my partner, we only need one mislynch. Why would he not jump on the Axxle wagon, instead claiming a result on me and push me hard? That makes no sense. Arch/me as a team would certainly have managed to get Axxle lynched.

3.2 DeDe is my partner

Same question arises here. It would have been easy enough for DeDe to just remain on Axxle, arguing "they're both scum anyway, let's lynch Axxle first". Instead he does this incredible back-and-forth. It just makes no sense.

4. Axxle is scum, I am scum

Well, doesn't really matter if we kill Axxle first then, does it?


So what exactly are the reasons to lynch me over Axxle?

[Archetype]

I've already laid out reasons why I want to lynch you first, Faust. It'll give a bigger clue to DD's alignment. Axxle's lynch won't (as much). In case I die, you can refer to that handy chart I made to determine the remaining alignments (I'll make a more thorough one before the day ends) and go from there. If I live, you go with my investigation result and Town wins.

What I don't understand is why DD doesn't think I'm Town. He seems 100% convinced that Faust and Axxle are scum, but still said that he didn't know if I was town. If those two are both scum, by default I should be Town! DD doesn't seem to realize this, which makes me think an Axxle/DD pairing may be possible and lynching Faust would give them the win. I guess I need to reread to determine if this is possible.

[faust]

I've already laid out reasons why I want to lynch you first, Faust. It'll give a bigger clue to DD's alignment. Axxle's lynch won't (as much). In case I die, you can refer to that handy chart I made to determine the remaining alignments (I'll make a more thorough one before the day ends) and go from there. If I live, you go with my investigation result and Town wins.

What I don't understand is why DD doesn't think I'm Town. He seems 100% convinced that Faust and Axxle are scum, but still said that he didn't know if I was town. If those two are both scum, by default I should be Town! DD doesn't seem to realize this, which makes me think an Axxle/DD pairing may be possible and lynching Faust would give them the win. I guess I need to reread to determine if this is possible.

You do realize that if we mislynch today, we probably lose, yes?

[Archetype]

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

The two of you (Arch and DD) seem to be operating with a "it must be faust and Axxle" assumption, and I just don't see how you can get there logically.  Am I missing something?  I know you aren't both scum, but one of you could be scum while the other one is getting pulled in.

I feel like most of the arguments made in the past few days have been incomplete and confusing, and at least some of them must be intended to mislead.

Instead of replying to this, I'll just say ditto to what DD said and refer you to his two possibilities. Plus some possible 2nd scum team stuff, but they'll still amount to Axxle and Faust being most likely both scum.
PPE: 1

[Archetype]

I've already laid out reasons why I want to lynch you first, Faust. It'll give a bigger clue to DD's alignment. Axxle's lynch won't (as much). In case I die, you can refer to that handy chart I made to determine the remaining alignments (I'll make a more thorough one before the day ends) and go from there. If I live, you go with my investigation result and Town wins.

What I don't understand is why DD doesn't think I'm Town. He seems 100% convinced that Faust and Axxle are scum, but still said that he didn't know if I was town. If those two are both scum, by default I should be Town! DD doesn't seem to realize this, which makes me think an Axxle/DD pairing may be possible and lynching Faust would give them the win. I guess I need to reread to determine if this is possible.

You do realize that if we mislynch today, we probably lose, yes?

Yeah, but we're not going to. It's whether or not we mislynch tommorow.

[faust]

I've already laid out reasons why I want to lynch you first, Faust. It'll give a bigger clue to DD's alignment. Axxle's lynch won't (as much). In case I die, you can refer to that handy chart I made to determine the remaining alignments (I'll make a more thorough one before the day ends) and go from there. If I live, you go with my investigation result and Town wins.

What I don't understand is why DD doesn't think I'm Town. He seems 100% convinced that Faust and Axxle are scum, but still said that he didn't know if I was town. If those two are both scum, by default I should be Town! DD doesn't seem to realize this, which makes me think an Axxle/DD pairing may be possible and lynching Faust would give them the win. I guess I need to reread to determine if this is possible.

You do realize that if we mislynch today, we probably lose, yes?

Yeah, but we're not going to. It's whether or not we mislynch tommorow.

How sure would you say you are about me being scum, and how sure about Axxle being scum?

[faust]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

[Archetype]

I've already laid out reasons why I want to lynch you first, Faust. It'll give a bigger clue to DD's alignment. Axxle's lynch won't (as much). In case I die, you can refer to that handy chart I made to determine the remaining alignments (I'll make a more thorough one before the day ends) and go from there. If I live, you go with my investigation result and Town wins.

What I don't understand is why DD doesn't think I'm Town. He seems 100% convinced that Faust and Axxle are scum, but still said that he didn't know if I was town. If those two are both scum, by default I should be Town! DD doesn't seem to realize this, which makes me think an Axxle/DD pairing may be possible and lynching Faust would give them the win. I guess I need to reread to determine if this is possible.

You do realize that if we mislynch today, we probably lose, yes?

Yeah, but we're not going to. It's whether or not we mislynch tommorow.

How sure would you say you are about me being scum, and how sure about Axxle being scum?

For you, 95%? Remaining 5% would be an Axxle/DD pairing. For Axxle, 90%?. Remaining 10% would be a Faust/DD pairing. DD is a 20%, but that can fluctuate once you get lynched, which is why I want to lynch you. Of course, these percentages don't mean much, but hopefully it puts it into perspective.

[Archetype]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

[faust]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

[Archetype]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

[Archetype]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

I do feel like the original question and the follow up one were asked to make me reconsider DD instead of reconsidering you. Which I believe scum would do to someone they know is Town. So, I think that DD is more likely not your partner.

[faust]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

If he didn't he'd have WON next day.

[faust]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

I do feel like the original question and the follow up one were asked to make me reconsider DD instead of reconsidering you. Which I believe scum would do to someone they know is Town. So, I think that DD is more likely not your partner.

Reconsidering DeDe IS reconsidering me. Please go back and reread and point out to me exactly what speaks for a DeDe/me scumteam.

[Axxle]

You're also yumas last living scumread, and all the others flipped town.

[Axxle]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

I do feel like the original question and the follow up one were asked to make me reconsider DD instead of reconsidering you. Which I believe scum would do to someone they know is Town. So, I think that DD is more likely not your partner.

Reconsidering DeDe IS reconsidering me. Please go back and reread and point out to me exactly what speaks for a DeDe/me scumteam.

What else would he do? He tried to push my lynch however he could but he feels like he can't go against "the town plan", he's not going to flat out not vote you if asked by arch and efhw.

[faust]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

I do feel like the original question and the follow up one were asked to make me reconsider DD instead of reconsidering you. Which I believe scum would do to someone they know is Town. So, I think that DD is more likely not your partner.

Reconsidering DeDe IS reconsidering me. Please go back and reread and point out to me exactly what speaks for a DeDe/me scumteam.

What else would he do? He tried to push my lynch however he could but he feels like he can't go against "the town plan", he's not going to flat out not vote you if asked by arch and efhw.

EFHW never supported my lynch though.

[faust]

Arch, can you please summarize why you think I'm scum? Did you even consider what happened the days before this? I think the least you should do before deciding who to lynch is reread.

[faust]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

[EFHW]

I'm currently thinking through faust/Arch team.

[EFHW]

3.1 Arch is my partner

If he's my partner, we only need one mislynch. Why would he not jump on the Axxle wagon, instead claiming a result on me and push me hard? That makes no sense. Arch/me as a team would certainly have managed to get Axxle lynched.

Was there a time when Axxle was at L-1 today?  Also, after his little gambit, he said he believed you about Axxle and was behind an Axxle lynch.

[faust]

3.1 Arch is my partner

If he's my partner, we only need one mislynch. Why would he not jump on the Axxle wagon, instead claiming a result on me and push me hard? That makes no sense. Arch/me as a team would certainly have managed to get Axxle lynched.

Was there a time when Axxle was at L-1 today?  Also, after his little gambit, he said he believed you about Axxle and was behind an Axxle lynch.

No, I don't think so. When you announced your support of an Axxle lynch earlier though, everything was in order and all that was missing was Arch's consent.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

There weren't any last night, so I figure there's not any more.

Also, as far as a Faust/me team, I don't think it's possible. It's completely silly to NK Andrew when arch, to our knowledge at the time, could just use his power and claim Faust is scum.

Faust/arch I think is just as unlikely. The whole gambit doesn't make sense. Why not just push the lynch? If they get it through, they win. Creating this small fight seems counterintuitive. Also, why would they lynch Andrew and not EFHW? It seems only a SK/mafia would have the Andrew result. That's the only possible explainable solution.

[EFHW]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

There weren't any last night, so I figure there's not any more.

Also, as far as a Faust/me team, I don't think it's possible. It's completely silly to NK Andrew when arch, to our knowledge at the time, could just use his power and claim Faust is scum.

Faust/arch I think is just as unlikely. The whole gambit doesn't make sense. Why not just push the lynch? If they get it through, they win. Creating this small fight seems counterintuitive. Also, why would they lynch Andrew and not EFHW? It seems only a SK/mafia would have the Andrew result. That's the only possible explainable solution.

I think the gambit makes sense.  It's distancing, while supporting the fakeclaim. Arch's support of the faust lynch has been strong, though, so it's counting on me not hammering, which is a pretty safe bet since I tend to be cautious.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

There weren't any last night, so I figure there's not any more.

Also, as far as a Faust/me team, I don't think it's possible. It's completely silly to NK Andrew when arch, to our knowledge at the time, could just use his power and claim Faust is scum.

Faust/arch I think is just as unlikely. The whole gambit doesn't make sense. Why not just push the lynch? If they get it through, they win. Creating this small fight seems counterintuitive. Also, why would they lynch Andrew and not EFHW? It seems only a SK/mafia would have the Andrew result. That's the only possible explainable solution.

I think the gambit makes sense.  It's distancing, while supporting the fakeclaim. Arch's support of the faust lynch has been strong, though, so it's counting on me not hammering, which is a pretty safe bet since I tend to be cautious.

But then why kill Andrew? They could easily kill you and still do the mislynch and fake claim. I think the Andrew kill only makes sense if scum was hunting scum or trying to not hit the same person.

[Axxle]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

I really doubt it, all the items in the OP have been given out.

[Axxle]

3.1 Arch is my partner

If he's my partner, we only need one mislynch. Why would he not jump on the Axxle wagon, instead claiming a result on me and push me hard? That makes no sense. Arch/me as a team would certainly have managed to get Axxle lynched.

Was there a time when Axxle was at L-1 today?  Also, after his little gambit, he said he believed you about Axxle and was behind an Axxle lynch.

I. Just. Linked this.

[Axxle]

Oh wait. no I didn't. One sec.

[Axxle]

Vote Count 5.4:

faust (2):  Axxle, DD (L-1)
Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

Vote: Axxel.

But Faust, you did try and kill me. But I commuted.

[Axxle]

Arch, I want you to lay out the scenario you're thinking of where I am scum and Axxle is town.

This would make a DD/Faust 2nd scum team. Your flip would show whether or not this is true. I don't understand why you're asking me this.

So if DeDe is my partner, why would he argue to lynch me over Axxle?

Because if he didnt, he'd be auto-lynched the next day.

I do feel like the original question and the follow up one were asked to make me reconsider DD instead of reconsidering you. Which I believe scum would do to someone they know is Town. So, I think that DD is more likely not your partner.

Reconsidering DeDe IS reconsidering me. Please go back and reread and point out to me exactly what speaks for a DeDe/me scumteam.

What else would he do? He tried to push my lynch however he could but he feels like he can't go against "the town plan", he's not going to flat out not vote you if asked by arch and efhw.

EFHW never supported my lynch though.

DD's "Support of your lynch" is him saying that he'd lynch you if both Archetype and EFHW support your lynch.  You're saying nothing here.

[Axxle]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

There weren't any last night, so I figure there's not any more.

Also, as far as a Faust/me team, I don't think it's possible. It's completely silly to NK Andrew when arch, to our knowledge at the time, could just use his power and claim Faust is scum.

Faust/arch I think is just as unlikely. The whole gambit doesn't make sense. Why not just push the lynch? If they get it through, they win. Creating this small fight seems counterintuitive. Also, why would they lynch Andrew and not EFHW? It seems only a SK/mafia would have the Andrew result. That's the only possible explainable solution.

I think the gambit makes sense.  It's distancing, while supporting the fakeclaim. Arch's support of the faust lynch has been strong, though, so it's counting on me not hammering, which is a pretty safe bet since I tend to be cautious.

But then why kill Andrew? They could easily kill you and still do the mislynch and fake claim. I think the Andrew kill only makes sense if scum was hunting scum or trying to not hit the same person.

Or the fact that Andrew was the only one seriously looking at you as scum.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Something else I thought of:

Are there any more Scare Games upcoming?

There weren't any last night, so I figure there's not any more.

Also, as far as a Faust/me team, I don't think it's possible. It's completely silly to NK Andrew when arch, to our knowledge at the time, could just use his power and claim Faust is scum.

Faust/arch I think is just as unlikely. The whole gambit doesn't make sense. Why not just push the lynch? If they get it through, they win. Creating this small fight seems counterintuitive. Also, why would they lynch Andrew and not EFHW? It seems only a SK/mafia would have the Andrew result. That's the only possible explainable solution.

I think the gambit makes sense.  It's distancing, while supporting the fakeclaim. Arch's support of the faust lynch has been strong, though, so it's counting on me not hammering, which is a pretty safe bet since I tend to be cautious.

But then why kill Andrew? They could easily kill you and still do the mislynch and fake claim. I think the Andrew kill only makes sense if scum was hunting scum or trying to not hit the same person.

Or the fact that Andrew was the only one seriously looking at you as scum.

Except for the fact that Andrew was people's top scum read.

[Axxle]

Except for the fact that Andrew was people's top scum read.

Yeah... point this out to me.

[Axxle]

Except for the fact that Andrew was people's top scum read.

Yeah... point this out to me.

Actually ignore this, he was mailmi's counterwagon for a while.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Except for the fact that Andrew was people's top scum read.

Yeah... point this out to me.

Actually ignore this, he was mailmi's counterwagon for a while.

Yeah. This.

Also, we would have to kill arch cause he would determine Faust is scum.

[Axxle]

Unless you guys have a roleblocker, which really really isn't that far of a leap to take.

[Axxle]

Or is faust is a godfather.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Unless you guys have a roleblocker, which really really isn't that far of a leap to take.

Except that there is like no evidence for it.

[Axxle]

Unless you guys have a roleblocker, which really really isn't that far of a leap to take.

Except that there is like no evidence for it.

So? It's the best reason for why you two didn't target Archetype.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Unless you guys have a roleblocker, which really really isn't that far of a leap to take.

Except that there is like no evidence for it.

So? It's the best reason for why you two didn't target Archetype.

I mean, I know it's not me. I am pretty sure that the most likely and the only logical conclusion is either Faust and you or Faust and me.

I've listed these reasons and they make a lot more sense to me than your unlikely and nonsubstantiated what ifs. I'm on my phone, so I can't say much.

It's ultimately up to EFHW and arch though because they will be on either Faust or your wagon in the end.

[Axxle]

Hey, maybe they'll decide on you~!

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.9:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (3):  EFHW, Arch, Axxle

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.


The Scare Games organizers have received final word from Dean Hardscrabble that the CDA is shutting down the Scare Games for the rest of the semester.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hey, maybe they'll decide on you~!

K.

I've made my arguments several times. I'm done arguing with you, especially since you've disregarded everything I've been saying.

[Axxle]

Hey, maybe they'll decide on you~!

K.

I've made my arguments several times. I'm done arguing with you, especially since you've disregarded everything I've been saying.

I've addressed all of your points, which is more than what you've done for me.

[Axxle]

But I guess you're voting for faust, which is all I can ask for. Thanks.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Hey, maybe they'll decide on you~!

K.

I've made my arguments several times. I'm done arguing with you, especially since you've disregarded everything I've been saying.

I've addressed all of your points, which is more than what you've done for me.

I mean you haven't, you've had like one sentence replies to the last two larger posts I've had and your answer is "it's the only explanation I have" and nothing else, but w/e.

I'm fine to vote for either, I think people who don't have my alignment knowledge (I.e. Anyone not me) would want you.

So y'all decide and I'll agree to both whenever EFHW or arch decide. I'm leaning you because that's what I'm assuming they want.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 5.4:

faust (2):  Axxle, DD (L-1)
Axxle (1):  faust

Not Voting (2):  EFHW, Arch

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

But Faust, you did try and kill me. But I commuted.

Do you mean this?  faust is L-1 here, not you.

[EFHW]

that message was to Axxle re: his being at L-1 today.

[Delirious Deleuze]

that message was to Axxle re: his being at L-1 today.

I switched to Axxel after this is what he was showing. He was at L-1

[EFHW]

Ok, I see that now.  And Archetype did not hammer.  So we can rule out faust/archetype partners.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Ok, I see that now.  And Archetype did not hammer.  So we can rule out faust/archetype partners.

Yep!

[faust]

Great. So the only way my claim makes sense as scum is if I have partner. The only partner I can have is DeDe. So we can lynch DeDe before we lynch me.

I would prefer lynching Axxle though.

[EFHW]

so now the only obstacle in the way of an Axxle lynch is the faust/DD team option.  That is the only scenario in which killing Andrew makes sense, since he had a scumread on DD.  They could have gambled that faust would fakeclaim to take care of the Archetype problem and they would kill Andrew. 

BUT, DD put faust to L-1 more than once, I think, and each time Arch or I could have hammered.  Another gamble.

This is DD's argument about why he cannot be partners with faust:

Faust/me: We'd also have to be a team. We'd have to kill arch. because he had timid sensor. Also, I am willing to lynch faust now. I've thought, thought so more, changed my mind at least 8 times, and will continue to do so, but right now, I'm down to lynch faust. I'm pretty sure I will stay there, but I want to keep looking over the possibilities.

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

[EFHW]

Great. So the only way my claim makes sense as scum is if I have partner. The only partner I can have is DeDe. So we can lynch DeDe before we lynch me.

I would prefer lynching Axxle though.

So you are advocating voting for what you say is a mislynch?

[EFHW]

Great. So the only way my claim makes sense as scum is if I have partner. The only partner I can have is DeDe. So we can lynch DeDe before we lynch me.

I would prefer lynching Axxle though.

So you are advocating voting for what you say is a mislynch?

By that I mean you want us to vote for DD

[EFHW]

Axxle!SK/faust!HC  Faust could have deduced Axxle was SK when his kill didn't go through - This is what I'm betting.

The problem with this is the same old one, that faust!HC would not have targeted Axxle. 

[faust]

Great. So the only way my claim makes sense as scum is if I have partner. The only partner I can have is DeDe. So we can lynch DeDe before we lynch me.

I would prefer lynching Axxle though.

So you are advocating voting for what you say is a mislynch?

No, I'm advocating voting for Axxle. Have I said that DeDe would be a mislynch?

[EFHW]

Great. So the only way my claim makes sense as scum is if I have partner. The only partner I can have is DeDe. So we can lynch DeDe before we lynch me.

I would prefer lynching Axxle though.

So you are advocating voting for what you say is a mislynch?

No, I'm advocating voting for Axxle. Have I said that DeDe would be a mislynch?

you suggested we lynch him as the test of whether you are partners, and you are not otherwise pushing his lynch, so if you are town, you are suggesting we lynch someone who could very well also be town.

What do you think of an SK!Axxle/HC!Arch scenario?

[faust]

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

You can reread. I think DeDe and I attacked each other pretty hard during previous days, which would be quite dangerous in a 2-player scumteam.

[faust]

Great. So the only way my claim makes sense as scum is if I have partner. The only partner I can have is DeDe. So we can lynch DeDe before we lynch me.

I would prefer lynching Axxle though.

So you are advocating voting for what you say is a mislynch?

No, I'm advocating voting for Axxle. Have I said that DeDe would be a mislynch?

you suggested we lynch him as the test of whether you are partners, and you are not otherwise pushing his lynch, so if you are town, you are suggesting we lynch someone who could very well also be town.

What do you think of an SK!Axxle/HC!Arch scenario?

I suggested that he is a better lynch than me. Well, he is. I also think Arch is more likely town than DeDe. Arch being HC is very much possible though, as he makes the most sense as Teproc's and WW's partner.

[faust]

I'm not running scenarios right now though, because I'm in the comfortable position of knowing that Axxle is scum. I can spare my brain cells and figure out the remaining scum tomorrow, if I'm still alive.

[EFHW]

I also think Arch is more likely town than DeDe. Arch being HC is very much possible though, as he makes the most sense as Teproc's and WW's partner.

Why does Arch make sense as T and WW's partner?  And where is his kill?  HC didn't shoot Andrew.  If he hit the BP SK, he would know b/c his kill didn't go through.  If DD was his target, he'd be pushing that lynch harder but he isn't at all.  If he hit you, he would have hammered you (or at least announced intent to hammer), if he hit Axxle, he would have hammered him.

[EFHW]

I'm not running scenarios right now though, because I'm in the comfortable position of knowing that Axxle is scum. I can spare my brain cells and figure out the remaining scum tomorrow, if I'm still alive.

Except that I am suggesting you and DD are the scum, and this interaction is encouraging that idea.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Like I said, I'm down to lynch Faust because I'm fairly sure, save arch really playing a weird mafia game, he's scum.

I don't think a me/Faust team is logical at all. It would require that we have roleblock which has literally no evidence of in this game. It also assume we kill the main scum suspect Andrew instead of EFHW, which doesn't make sense. To me, the only logical way that Andrew died was if a SK was aiming for both someone who is scum and someone scum wouldn't be targeting. Having a team make that shot seems overly risky compared the other less risky options, even if we had roleblock.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Vote: Faust. Either way you decide, both will come up scum.

Faust is on Axxels wagon, I can be on Fausts. Axxel you should Unvote so when they decide they can investigate me.

If y'all decide to lynch me, then Faust will have to switch to me, so investigation would still work, but I still think Faust lying about this is illogical.

[Axxle]

Vote: Faust. Either way you decide, both will come up scum.

Faust is on Axxels wagon, I can be on Fausts. Axxel you should Unvote so when they decide they can investigate me.

If y'all decide to lynch me, then Faust will have to switch to me, so investigation would still work, but I still think Faust lying about this is illogical.

youre already voting Faust, and I'm already voting no one

[Delirious Deleuze]

Vote: Faust. Either way you decide, both will come up scum.

Faust is on Axxels wagon, I can be on Fausts. Axxel you should Unvote so when they decide they can investigate me.

If y'all decide to lynch me, then Faust will have to switch to me, so investigation would still work, but I still think Faust lying about this is illogical.

youre already voting Faust, and I'm already voting no one

Oops you're right. Sorry I'm packing and planning cause I'm going to Kansas City tomorrow for a debate tournament, so I got mixed up with were votes are. Should have checked, sorry. I hate being on mobile.

[Archetype]

The only possiblity I'm afraid of is an Axxle/DD pairing. Rereading now to see if it's valid.

[Archetype]

On three occasions, DD states that Axxle is "weird but Town".

Which makes me ask, what do people think of:

1. Axxle? I think clearly very town, but that's me. If someone even has suspicions, ask questions so we have more to analyze.

2. Arch? He's been really lurky and I don't have much to analyze on him. His absent makes me suspicious... I don't have much of a read on his earlier posts at that. I'm really null. I'd love people to add so we can analyze.

Now, I'm going to go drink champagne with the GF and then we're celebrating our anniversary tomorrow all day and I'll be gone. I'll probably be back Friday evening at some point (Hopefully, I have a friends birthday that night too.)
Have fun!
FIND SCUM!

Bolded part makes sense if they are partners.

He was also the first to bring up the possibility of a second scum team (I think?) after ADK/Robz's deaths. He also had WW as scummy and then he turned up dead the following day.

First post of Day 2 is voting for faust. Second one is this:

Still think you're scum, but that could be my lack of playing with you and you being town, but I appreciate your reply.

Idk if it incriminates him, why do you think so?

Jumping to conclusions with that second scum team?

He does a reread, and does this interesting analysis of Axxle:

Axxle: This is where the reread got interesting. Despite Axxle's obviously weird play style in D1, he had more than short, non-substantial posts.

1. He votes for WW because, "wagons are fun." This seems silly and an excuse to vote for him without having reasons... He quickly swithes his vote too. Keep in mind this was well after the RVS.

2. Then he jumps on my wagon which is whatever, but then WW begins to have a slight scum read on him because he feels Axxle's vote on me was "artificial"? It seems very similar to the interaction between Teproc and WW at the beginning of D1.

3. Teproc had a slight scum read on Axxle and WW had a slight scum read on him. This differentiation might be nothing, and probably isn't, but it would also be the pattern well thoughtout scum would make when making reads, or at least I think it is.

4. He first jumps on Yuma to use the shot right away and even gives a list of people to use it on.... then he votes yuma, because he's afraid that scum will just manipulate the shot and make him shoot a town. This seems pretty backwards given his first reaction with it. Mail-mi and Yuma catch onto this and shortly after he stops this discussion completely.

5. He says we shouldn't listen to the ICs or let them make decisions. This is an inherently scummy thing to say.

6. He jumps on mail-mi's wagon with literally no reason posted.

7. Then he just jumps and put's joth at L-2.

I'm pretty convinced he's scum after that reread, despite his lack of posts to begin with.

Vote: Axxle. That's L-1

Axxle asks for some stuff about DD in our house. Which is weird if DD is his partner since he'd already know what he posted.

Second Axxle analysis:

Axxle

Still confident here.

D2: His first post in this day was not directed at Teproc and the vote at all, but specifically at prize giving. This seems like a scum way to avoid voting for a partner. Then again, rather than address Then he slips up and doesn’t realize that the Desperado PR was a day power, even thought he read and posted the wiki….

With the interaction with him and Teproc over the info he dropped from his QT, it seems like a really forced conversation, just like Teproc’s interaction with WW.

The caveat, WW claims Teproc is scum in his attack over axxle. It feels really forced into making us not expect them of being scum, then Teproc quickly says he feels Axxel is most likely town.

WW then defends Axxel by defending his slip? Why would WW defend a town player people wanted to lynch?

Axxel’s fight with witherweaver over voting also seems super fake and weird, with Axxel shouting NO. And then he tells us not to listen to ICs as much, like they’re right.

D3: Randomly votes for Arch? Because he was trying to trick him into claiming something… or responding… or? What? This play seems fake. And WW breaking it does too.

He was accusing Arch for lurking, then instantly switched his vote to mail-mi after a single question by Arch.
.
.
.
Yeah, so I'm pretty confident that Axxle is scum. Even after his answers, I'm not going to sit and re-argue what I said, he reads scummy and you can look at my reasons.

Very risky at this point since Axxle was at L-1 and we were nearing deadline.

After EFHW narrows down the pool to Andrew/mail-mi, he posts this:

On phone

Here is my reasoning for limiting the lynch choices to Andrew or mail-mi. 

If we have a three person child team and an SK there are 4 possibilities: 

1.  Both children were on the same wagon and one of them was the other wagon.  This points to mail-mi as WW's partner.  50% chance of hitting scum.

2.  The wagons were both town and everyone, including the SK, thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  Personally, I think the SK would be more careful, but I could see it happening. I also think one of the human children would have tried to ensure a lynch by switching.  faust, WW and Archetype were all around near the deadline and could have done that but didn't.  Axxle and DD were not around.  0% chance of hitting scum.

3.  The wagons were SK and town and everyone thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  This also depends on the human children not ensuring there was a lynch.  50% chance of hitting scum

4.  The wagons were SK and human child.  100% chance of hitting scum

#2 depends on 3 scum neglecting to make sure there was a lynch, and that just seems unlikely. 

If we have a 2 person second faction then these are the possibilities:

1.  Both wagons were on the second faction (unlikely, but gives us 100% chance hitting scum)

2.  Both wagons were town - here again there were three people (WW and the other faction) who would have wanted to prevent a no lynch and none of them did. 0% chance hitting scum

3.  One wagon was on the second faction, the other on town.  This means one of mail-mi and Andrew would be scum, the other would be unable to switch wagons, and everyone else thought someone else would make sure there was a lynch.  50% chance of hitting scum.

All this reasoning depends on the assumption that given 3 scum and two town wagons, one of the 3 would have ensured there was a lynch.

This is pretty good reasoning. I'm currently driving to Wisconsin for graduation, so I'll be gone because of ceramonies, etc., throughout the weekend.

I still think Axxel is scummy, but y'all are probably right that I'm reading too much into his interactions because I already thought he was scum. At the very least, I think EFHW's right that those two are the best for gaining info for town. vote: Mail-mi. I think he's scum more right now than Andrew. that's L-1.

Hope people talk this through more though and get a lynch, but talk it out and get more interactions from everybody.

Cheers.

That's all I've read. Beginning of the game I thought they could be partners, but that insistence on Axxle being scum really disproves that. But man, I really don't think that faust could be a HC.

EFHW, what are your thoughts on a DD/Axxle pairing? And I don't think you've addressed this already, so could read the faust/Teproc interactions here and give your thoughts?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

[Axxle]

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

You can reread. I think DeDe and I attacked each other pretty hard during previous days, which would be quite dangerous in a 2-player scumteam.

Can you show this to me? I see DD voting for you day 1, but that's kinda it.

[Axxle]

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

You can reread. I think DeDe and I attacked each other pretty hard during previous days, which would be quite dangerous in a 2-player scumteam.

Can you show this to me? I see DD voting for you day 1, but that's kinda it.

I guess you voted for him Day 3, but also told no one to hammer before you had your match, and also didn't push it at all, instead resigning to Andrew.

[faust]

Not sure what your conclusions are here. Axxle and DeDe can't be partners? What about SK!Axxle/HC!DeDe? Has your read on me changed in any way?

[faust]

I also think Arch is more likely town than DeDe. Arch being HC is very much possible though, as he makes the most sense as Teproc's and WW's partner.

Why does Arch make sense as T and WW's partner?  And where is his kill?  HC didn't shoot Andrew.  If he hit the BP SK, he would know b/c his kill didn't go through.  If DD was his target, he'd be pushing that lynch harder but he isn't at all.  If he hit you, he would have hammered you (or at least announced intent to hammer), if he hit Axxle, he would have hammered him.

You are aware that SK's aren't the only players that can be bulletproof though?

[faust]

I'm not running scenarios right now though, because I'm in the comfortable position of knowing that Axxle is scum. I can spare my brain cells and figure out the remaining scum tomorrow, if I'm still alive.

Except that I am suggesting you and DD are the scum, and this interaction is encouraging that idea.

How so?

Your point on Arch makes sense though. So I think we're up against Axxle/DeDe, probably on different teams.

[faust]

Hm. There is a chance that scum would have preferred to no lynch in the scenario we're in, which I guess would be the only way to explain an Axxle/Arch scum pairing. Still think DeDe is a much better choice than Arch, and Axxle much better than both of them.

[faust]

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

You can reread. I think DeDe and I attacked each other pretty hard during previous days, which would be quite dangerous in a 2-player scumteam.

Can you show this to me? I see DD voting for you day 1, but that's kinda it.

I guess you voted for him Day 3, but also told no one to hammer before you had your match, and also didn't push it at all, instead resigning to Andrew.

Well, no use arguing with you, but I encourage everyone else to reread themselves and figure out if my interaction with DeDe looks like scum partners to you. I don't think it does.

[faust]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

If I would be the last mafia, I would have lost already. Are you even following this thread?

[Archetype]

Not sure what your conclusions are here. Axxle and DeDe can't be partners? What about SK!Axxle/HC!DeDe? Has your read on me changed in any way?

I think it's likely they could be. I need to reread you still, but I also want to hear EFHW's opinion.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

If I would be the last mafia, I would have lost already. Are you even following this thread?

Not if you have a lynchproof or death proof.

[faust]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

If I would be the last mafia, I would have lost already. Are you even following this thread?

Not if you have a lynchproof or death proof.

That's really a stretch. Do you honestly believe that?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

If I would be the last mafia, I would have lost already. Are you even following this thread?

Not if you have a lynchproof or death proof.

That's really a stretch. Do you honestly believe that?

Given the PRs and knowing my alignment, yes. Like 95% sure. But I'd rather lynch Axxel too tho.

[EFHW]

Like I said, I'm down to lynch Faust because I'm fairly sure, save arch really playing a weird mafia game, he's scum.

I don't think a me/Faust team is logical at all. It would require that we have roleblock which has literally no evidence of in this game. It also assume we kill the main scum suspect Andrew instead of EFHW, which doesn't make sense. To me, the only logical way that Andrew died was if a SK was aiming for both someone who is scum and someone scum wouldn't be targeting. Having a team make that shot seems overly risky compared the other less risky options, even if we had roleblock.

If there is a second team, then they certainly have some kind of power.  The other team had Janitor and Nexus.  How about roleblock or Godfather for you guys?  faust can let Archetype live and kill off the town player with the scum read on you.  Hopefully get cleared by archetype (if Godfather) and mislynch Axxle.  Game won.

[EFHW]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

If I would be the last mafia, I would have lost already. Are you even following this thread?

Pretend we aren't reading.  Why would you have lost already?  Archetype didn't use his power last night.

[EFHW]

I'm not running scenarios right now though, because I'm in the comfortable position of knowing that Axxle is scum. I can spare my brain cells and figure out the remaining scum tomorrow, if I'm still alive.

I still find this so scummy.  Sit back and relax?  It seems to me from this you don't feel like part of town.  That you are NOT part of town. 

[EFHW]

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

You can reread. I think DeDe and I attacked each other pretty hard during previous days, which would be quite dangerous in a 2-player scumteam.

Can you show this to me? I see DD voting for you day 1, but that's kinda it.

I guess you voted for him Day 3, but also told no one to hammer before you had your match, and also didn't push it at all, instead resigning to Andrew.

Well, no use arguing with you, but I encourage everyone else to reread themselves and figure out if my interaction with DeDe looks like scum partners to you. I don't think it does.

Also scummy.  If this is your defense, then you can point it out to us.

[EFHW]

vote : Teproc

Sorry, man. You just seem to die early like all the time recently.

Archetype - Do you mean this?  I don't make anything from it.

[EFHW]

Not sure what your conclusions are here. Axxle and DeDe can't be partners? What about SK!Axxle/HC!DeDe? Has your read on me changed in any way?

I think it's likely they could be. I need to reread you still, but I also want to hear EFHW's opinion.

I'm not paying that much attention right now to the sk!Axxle pairings b/c if we can rule out faust/DD team then Axxle is definitely the lynch, no matter who is partner is.

[EFHW]

I mean, no matter who the remaining scum is.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I mean, no matter who the remaining scum is.

This is my thinking. I think we should lynch Axxel. I am more than okay with Faust too. I mean, but I've said this. It's really up to you at this point.

[EFHW]

This is my argument for why Axxle likely doesn't have a partner.  No one has responded to it.  I would like to know people's reactions.

Because all three of you were on this wagon for 2 rl days, with Axxle at L-1 the whole time, I am inclined to think none of you are his partner.

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

[Delirious Deleuze]

This is my argument for why Axxle likely doesn't have a partner.  No one has responded to it.  I would like to know people's reactions.

Because all three of you were on this wagon for 2 rl days, with Axxle at L-1 the whole time, I am inclined to think none of you are his partner.

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

I mean, I agree. I'm under the impression it's SK!axxel/HC!faust

[EFHW]

This is my argument for why Axxle likely doesn't have a partner.  No one has responded to it.  I would like to know people's reactions.

Because all three of you were on this wagon for 2 rl days, with Axxle at L-1 the whole time, I am inclined to think none of you are his partner.

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

I mean, I agree. I'm under the impression it's SK!axxel/HC!faust

Really? Why would HC!faust have targeted Axxle?

[EFHW]

I mean, no matter who the remaining scum is.

This is my thinking. I think we should lynch Axxel. I am more than okay with Faust too. I mean, but I've said this. It's really up to you at this point.

You can't be fine with either.  That doesn't work!  If we lynch faust and are wrong, then the two scum will probably try to kill each other, which is good for town.  If we lynch Axxle and are wrong, we lose right then and there.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I mean, no matter who the remaining scum is.

This is my thinking. I think we should lynch Axxel. I am more than okay with Faust too. I mean, but I've said this. It's really up to you at this point.

You can't be fine with either.  That doesn't work!  If we lynch faust and are wrong, then the two scum will probably try to kill each other, which is good for town.  If we lynch Axxle and are wrong, we lose right then and there.

I know my alignment, which is why I'm fine either way. Either works. Theyre both scum.

And HC!faust targeted Axxel.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I mean, no matter who the remaining scum is.

This is my thinking. I think we should lynch Axxel. I am more than okay with Faust too. I mean, but I've said this. It's really up to you at this point.

You can't be fine with either.  That doesn't work!  If we lynch faust and are wrong, then the two scum will probably try to kill each other, which is good for town.  If we lynch Axxle and are wrong, we lose right then and there.

I know my alignment, which is why I'm fine either way. Either works. Theyre both scum.

And HC!faust targeted Axxel.

I meant to say HC!faust targeted arch and targeted Axxel to find the other scum so he could win.

Sorry in car. Drive to Kansas City today. 11 hours woohoo

[Delirious Deleuze]

Fuck,

HC!faust shot arch and targeted Axxel

[EFHW]

so you believe the tracker story?

[Delirious Deleuze]

so you believe the tracker story?

Yes, I do. He wouldn't really have incentive to lie.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.10:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (1):  DD

Not Voting (3):  EFHW, Arch, Axxle

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[Axxle]

Don't forget about the deadline.

[faust]

Wait, why don't you think Faust is a HC? He's my largest read for mafia.

If I would be the last mafia, I would have lost already. Are you even following this thread?

Pretend we aren't reading.  Why would you have lost already?  Archetype didn't use his power last night.

I was a little quick here I guess... Okay, if I was he last mafia, then Axxle would need to be the other scum. Because if he's not, and he is lynched, the SK would know that I'm the remaining scum and shoot me. If I manage to live through the night, town will lynch me for lying. So in every scenario where I am HC, Axxle is SK, so Axxle is a better lynch than me.

[faust]

I'm not running scenarios right now though, because I'm in the comfortable position of knowing that Axxle is scum. I can spare my brain cells and figure out the remaining scum tomorrow, if I'm still alive.

I still find this so scummy.  Sit back and relax?  It seems to me from this you don't feel like part of town.  That you are NOT part of town.

What would you have me do? I know, with a reasonable amount of certainty, that Axxle is scum. Why look for the second scum now? It's only distraction. Tomorrow, if I'm still alive, there's still enough time to figure this out AND we will have Axxle's flip to help with that.

[faust]

This argument relies solely on the nk issue, which is also the basis of my argument.  Is there any other evidence we can use to settle this question?

You can reread. I think DeDe and I attacked each other pretty hard during previous days, which would be quite dangerous in a 2-player scumteam.

Can you show this to me? I see DD voting for you day 1, but that's kinda it.

I guess you voted for him Day 3, but also told no one to hammer before you had your match, and also didn't push it at all, instead resigning to Andrew.

Well, no use arguing with you, but I encourage everyone else to reread themselves and figure out if my interaction with DeDe looks like scum partners to you. I don't think it does.

Also scummy.  If this is your defense, then you can point it out to us.

Sorry, I didn't have the time for a full DeDe/me reread. I can do that if you want me to.

[faust]

Okay... so I'm trying to lay out why I'm not scum. If I were scum, there are only two reasonable scenarios:

1. I am DeDe's partner.

2. I am HC, and thus Teproc's and WW's partner. (This implies that Axxle is SK)

I'll point out some major things. First, there's this:

Sorry for being a little behind. Can't catch up right now, but let me say that my preferred lynch choices are joth/WW. Actually I've come to like a WW lynch a bit better now, due to ongoing game reasons.

Vote: Witherweaver for now to see if this can get support. I'm willing to switch back otherwise.

On D1, with a major wagon on town!joth and less than 1 day before deadline, I propose a wagon on WW. Sounds risky if I am his partner. A similar argument shows why I'm not scum partners with DeDe: He does the same with me.

D2 isn't really fruitful in terms of analysis.

DeDe starts D3 with a vote on me, his top scum read. Strange from a partner. Following that, I am voting for him. Then, I'm still DeDe's number one lynch choice.

DeDe is still coming after me D4. Hardcore bussing if we were partners.

Last but not least, after I have heard Arch's claim, I still manage to put myself in a position where he can investigate me. Why would I do that as scum?

So that's pretty much it. I think the DeDe/me scumteam gets pretty much excluded. Me being HC not so much, but hey, if I'd be HC, that means Axxle is SK, so we should still lynch him.

[faust]

This is my argument for why Axxle likely doesn't have a partner.  No one has responded to it.  I would like to know people's reactions.

Because all three of you were on this wagon for 2 rl days, with Axxle at L-1 the whole time, I am inclined to think none of you are his partner.

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

In answer to this: I think it points towards Axxle being SK, but I would not rule out the possibility that Axxle and his partner came up with a fakeclaim for him that would carry him to victory.

[EFHW]

Faust, thanks for the reread.  My problem with the DD explanation is that he consistently saw you as scum for the first few days, but the whole time he would be alone in that suspicion.  Finally when I asked him about it, he said he now thought you were town.  I'm on phone atm, so I'll post quote later.  He never came back to a scumread on you until today, in a strange flipfloppy way.

[EFHW]

You wouldn't worry about Archetype as a second faction if your PRs provided protection. Then you would seek it out.

I still think Axxle has a point that he wouldn't have shot yuma. But you would, since yuma always has a scumread on you, and said he did Day 1.

[EFHW]

Who can be here at deadline?

[faust]

You wouldn't worry about Archetype as a second faction if your PRs provided protection. Then you would seek it out.

I still think Axxle has a point that he wouldn't have shot yuma. But you would, since yuma always has a scumread on you, and said he did Day 1.

Why would Axxle not have shot yuma? He made it very clear that he thought yuma's decision not to shoot was anti-town. Maybe he thought that yuma was scum?

[faust]

Faust, thanks for the reread.  My problem with the DD explanation is that he consistently saw you as scum for the first few days, but the whole time he would be alone in that suspicion.  Finally when I asked him about it, he said he now thought you were town.  I'm on phone atm, so I'll post quote later.  He never came back to a scumread on you until today, in a strange flipfloppy way.

Well, I understand. Still, assuming this scenario, it's very dangerous to throw suspicion on me. What if people picked up on it? In a larger scum team, this might be viable, but for 2 players? You have to keep your partner alive.

[EFHW]

You wouldn't worry about Archetype as a second faction if your PRs provided protection. Then you would seek it out.

I still think Axxle has a point that he wouldn't have shot yuma. But you would, since yuma always has a scumread on you, and said he did Day 1.

Why would Axxle not have shot yuma? He made it very clear that he thought yuma's decision not to shoot was anti-town. Maybe he thought that yuma was scum?

yuma had a strong townread on Axxle.

[faust]

Who can be here at deadline?

I won't. I'll check in before I go asleep though. But I don't matter much, because I won't be moving my vote anyway.

[EFHW]

Faust, thanks for the reread.  My problem with the DD explanation is that he consistently saw you as scum for the first few days, but the whole time he would be alone in that suspicion.  Finally when I asked him about it, he said he now thought you were town.  I'm on phone atm, so I'll post quote later.  He never came back to a scumread on you until today, in a strange flipfloppy way.

Well, I understand. Still, assuming this scenario, it's very dangerous to throw suspicion on me. What if people picked up on it? In a larger scum team, this might be viable, but for 2 players? You have to keep your partner alive.

I was the first to ask him about it, and he dropped it immediately.  It is somewhat risky, but not extremely, I think.

[faust]

You wouldn't worry about Archetype as a second faction if your PRs provided protection. Then you would seek it out.

I still think Axxle has a point that he wouldn't have shot yuma. But you would, since yuma always has a scumread on you, and said he did Day 1.

Why would Axxle not have shot yuma? He made it very clear that he thought yuma's decision not to shoot was anti-town. Maybe he thought that yuma was scum?

yuma had a strong townread on Axxle.

Can you point me to that? D1 reads are seldom strong. And if Axxle thought yuma was scum, he wants to shoot him anyway.

It doesn't make much sense for me to shoot yuma, really. He had many scumreads, he knows he has a bias against me, he probably wouldn't have shot me. If the SK wants to take out town, he shoots the ICs. He didn't, so he probably aimed at scum.

[faust]

Faust, thanks for the reread.  My problem with the DD explanation is that he consistently saw you as scum for the first few days, but the whole time he would be alone in that suspicion.  Finally when I asked him about it, he said he now thought you were town.  I'm on phone atm, so I'll post quote later.  He never came back to a scumread on you until today, in a strange flipfloppy way.

Well, I understand. Still, assuming this scenario, it's very dangerous to throw suspicion on me. What if people picked up on it? In a larger scum team, this might be viable, but for 2 players? You have to keep your partner alive.

I was the first to ask him about it, and he dropped it immediately.  It is somewhat risky, but not extremely, I think.

Well, maybe. Still, bussing went in both directions if we were a team. I wouldn't do that as scum.

[faust]

Is there anything that points towards me and DeDe being partners in the past days, EFHW?

[EFHW]

yuma's townread on Axxle:

Hmmm... I didn't really intend for my point about axxle to indicate that he is scummy... rather that he was being inconsistent and to try and see why he wanted to lynch me. I have learned that inconsistencies aren't scummy and have actually kinda had a townread on axxle. I mean I don't like that he is voting for me, but townies vote for me all the time...

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

We should be careful as I tend to think these sort of mass list making ventures often lead to mass group mislynches instead of solid lynches on scum...

But I would be willing to lynch ADK, mail-mi or joth.

I have lost my scum read on WW to an extent.

Wouldn't lynch axxle (town read) or Robz (VLA) I think... everyone else is meh... and can't remember them much. Teproc is here. Is faust in this game? if so I could lynch him....

don't vote for axxle... and don't let mail-mi tell you who to vote for.

if you are going to sheep, then sheep me or an IC.

Yuma why do you think axxle is town?

I started off with a town read from him from a silly post he did about "finally being town" I don't have time to pull it up, but it gave me an impression of him being sincere.

From there the way he reacted to my claim--aggressively trying to control it and voting me--isn't something I would expect scum to do... to easy for me to get annoyed and shoot him in response. Thinking back to the RMM game the only players who were really aggressive about the possibility of me being scum were townies. Scum was all like "he is probably town, kinda suspicious... but his claim makes me think townie..."

Axxle is one player that is capable of anything as either alignment, so I do remember that, but that is my read on him.

[EFHW]

Those quotes are in response to this.   You happily put faust to L-1 earlier

But my primary goal is to get Faust lynched.

I will do this ONLY if EFHW and Arch agree. Then I'll be on the wagon with them or not

I mean yeah, they'd have to agree of course. How would this plan work otherwise?

I only said that to show I'm vehemently against it, but will get on the wagon if they need me to to investigate me

Yeah... because you know... I rethought things in face of Faust's and Arch's reply. Sorry?

On phone, but I just want to say, I only support an Axxel lynch. I'll be the hammar, but if much rather see an Axxel lynch.

I guess my biggest qualm is that if Faust turns up mafia, you die, then why is Axxel the SK? We'd be in the same spot as now

Axxle is the SK because HC!Faust has no reason to lie. He still wants to find the SK, because if he lies about a Townie, the SK knows that he's scum and will shoot him that night.

Oh I got you. Yeah this is pretty full proof

vote: faust

For example, this.  Yes, if faust flips HC then Axxle is probably the SK.  But how does that prove that faust is scum? 

I agree that one of faust and Axxle is definitely scum, because if Arch and DD were both scum, faust wouldn't claim this result on Axxle.  That rules out Arch/DD as the 2 scum.

We have ruled out Axxle/Arch partners b/c Arch didn't hammer faust. 

But how have you ruled out faust/Arch, faust/DD, Axxle/DD and Axxle!Sk/ArchHC?  Let's get systematic about this.

My results and votes lately are shaky, I'm sorry. This is confusing me and I'm just going with what makes sense at the time.

I'm pretty sure we know for sure Axxel has to be scum, because mafia!faust has 0 incentive to lie unless he's on a team. I don't think there's a possibility for a faust/x team.

/snip/

Faust/me: We'd also have to be a team. We'd have to kill arch. because he had timid sensor. Also, I am willing to lynch faust now. I've thought, thought so more, changed my mind at least 8 times, and will continue to do so, but right now, I'm down to lynch faust. I'm pretty sure I will stay there, but I want to keep looking over the possibilities.

/snip/

This leaves me with two logical scenarios:

1. mafia!me, sk!axxel
2. mafia!faust, sk!axxel.

Now I'm fine with lynching faust or axxel, after thinking this through. I know scenario one isn't true, so that leaves me with scenario 2. Now, you guys can't trust me on that. So we should lynch axxel with faust on the wagon, since I think he's scum and I think arch thinks he's scum. It's pretty irrelevant, but faust's vote is there anyway. Since axxel is scum, then mafia is the only one left. At night, arch just will be killed. Mafia cannot have him stay alive and be able to investigate faust or me. That leaves it me, faust, EFHW. It will be down to you then EFHW. This is the best scenario I see right now.

PPE:2

Sorry about the long quotes, but this captures at least some of DD's approach to faust today.  He has been all over the place.  The bolded part is very, very hedgy.  His analysis of the him/faust team is pretty thin.  No mention of the PR's that team would have to have.  And, this isn't proof by any means, but I can't help pointing out that the best case scenario he sees is him, faust and me.

[EFHW]

I think I have myself convinced. Will wait a bit to see if anyone can unconvince me.  Axxle, Archetype, are you going to be around?

[Delirious Deleuze]

I think I have myself convinced. Will wait a bit to see if anyone can unconvince me.  Axxle, Archetype, are you going to be around?

I'm not going to be around, but I'm not changing my vote anyway.

I'm sorry I'm hedgy. I've flip flopped quite consistently on a lot of people in this game, tho. Look at me/WW, look at me/Axxel, and others. I'm not very consistent. But I mean, if you're convinced you're convinced. I'm pretty sure it's HC!faust, SK!axxel, so lynch either.

[faust]

I think I have myself convinced. Will wait a bit to see if anyone can unconvince me.  Axxle, Archetype, are you going to be around?

What are you convinced of? Me/DeDe scumteam? Then at least lynch DeDe first, he'll hopefully flip scum, and you'll see you are wrong.

[faust]

Is there anything that points towards me and DeDe being partners in the past days, EFHW?

[faust]

yuma's townread on Axxle:

Hmmm... I didn't really intend for my point about axxle to indicate that he is scummy... rather that he was being inconsistent and to try and see why he wanted to lynch me. I have learned that inconsistencies aren't scummy and have actually kinda had a townread on axxle. I mean I don't like that he is voting for me, but townies vote for me all the time...

I think it's time for scum to chums.  Each person should list the other players in order of scumminess and let's see if we can get some consensus going.

We should be careful as I tend to think these sort of mass list making ventures often lead to mass group mislynches instead of solid lynches on scum...

But I would be willing to lynch ADK, mail-mi or joth.

I have lost my scum read on WW to an extent.

Wouldn't lynch axxle (town read) or Robz (VLA) I think... everyone else is meh... and can't remember them much. Teproc is here. Is faust in this game? if so I could lynch him....

don't vote for axxle... and don't let mail-mi tell you who to vote for.

if you are going to sheep, then sheep me or an IC.

Yuma why do you think axxle is town?

I started off with a town read from him from a silly post he did about "finally being town" I don't have time to pull it up, but it gave me an impression of him being sincere.

From there the way he reacted to my claim--aggressively trying to control it and voting me--isn't something I would expect scum to do... to easy for me to get annoyed and shoot him in response. Thinking back to the RMM game the only players who were really aggressive about the possibility of me being scum were townies. Scum was all like "he is probably town, kinda suspicious... but his claim makes me think townie..."

Axxle is one player that is capable of anything as either alignment, so I do remember that, but that is my read on him.

This is in no way a strong town read, and Axxle is pulling your strings, EFHW, just as they have done this whole game.

[faust]

they means scum in my previous post.

[EFHW]

Is there anything that points towards me and DeDe being partners in the past days, EFHW?

See the quotes from DD

[EFHW]

This is in no way a strong town read, and Axxle is pulling your strings, EFHW, just as they have done this whole game.

yuma states the town read multiple times, tells others not to vote for Axxle, and persists in the town read despite disagreeing with him and being voted for by him.  How much stronger could it be?

Nice try, but I don't feel any strings pulling me.

[faust]

Is there anything that points towards me and DeDe being partners in the past days, EFHW?

See the quotes from DD

You mean that he isn't "seriously considering" a scum team that includes himself? Man, if that's your basis for scumhunting...

[faust]

This is in no way a strong town read, and Axxle is pulling your strings, EFHW, just as they have done this whole game.

yuma states the town read multiple times, tells others not to vote for Axxle, and persists in the town read despite disagreeing with him and being voted for by him.  How much stronger could it be?

Nice try, but I don't feel any strings pulling me.

See the last sentence of the quotes you posted from yuma.

[EFHW]

This is in no way a strong town read, and Axxle is pulling your strings, EFHW, just as they have done this whole game.

yuma states the town read multiple times, tells others not to vote for Axxle, and persists in the town read despite disagreeing with him and being voted for by him.  How much stronger could it be?

Nice try, but I don't feel any strings pulling me.

See the last sentence of the quotes you posted from yuma.

I did.  He says he knows Axxle is capable of anything - that is knowledge - but his READ is town.

[faust]

Also basing your scumread on two people on D5 on a single post is very poor play.

[faust]

Nice try, but I don't feel any strings pulling me.

Sure, your reads are spot on just like they have been all game.

[faust]

What you should at least ask yourself, EFHW: In a scenario where DeDe and I are not partners, who of us is more likely scum?

[EFHW]

Also basing your scumread on two people on D5 on a single post is very poor play.

I don't know what you mean.  What single post?

[EFHW]

Nice try, but I don't feel any strings pulling me.

Sure, your reads are spot on just like they have been all game.

you're getting kind of nasty.

[EFHW]

Here is the research I've been doing over the past couple days.  A faust/DD team is consistent with:

--only 1 nk
--Andrew as the nk target
--faust not killing Archetype and expecting to be cleared (a team would have PR's)
--DD being "vehemently against" faust lynch, followed by "just fine" to lynch faust.
--DD suspecting faust strongly until asked about it, and then backing off completely.  Also, the main case he repeatedly made was that faust was lurking -- easily retracted once he was active, and maybe scum wanting to hear more from his partner.
--yuma double targeted

faust has a similar pattern as DD did with him, suspecting him early and then town reads until today:

769 votes DD
923 happy with DD vote
1036  DD would be SK, not HC because ...
1045  ...he forgot janitor and put Teproc and WW as townreads.
1057  DD towards or at bottom of both SK and HC possibilities
1087

vote: DD

1088

Hmmm. What do you think about Axxle?

1146 Says DD is off the table
1225 thinks DD is acting like HC - goes off to reread.
1226 [four minutes later] "Okay, my reasons to believe DeDe is not scum partner are good. Even though I find his above post on the scummy side, I'm not getting swayed just yet."
1430-1445 DD is scum, his post gives faust heebie-jeebies, DD has flawed reasoning.

One more thing,

1141

I just thought something scary...

So I don't really feel like anyone here is a really plausible choice for WW's and Teproc's partner. Which leaves me thinking, what if there is no other partner? What if this is multiball, with two two-member scum factions, like in Toy Story Mafia?

This feels disingenuous to me.  The possibility of two teams had been brought up multiple times before, for example:

WW dying as a nexus basically confirms a strong man kill and thus scum team, at least I see no other possibility. If that's the case we might not be looking for a Teproc/ww partner.

Here is the post with DD pulling back from his faust scumread that I meant to post earlier

DD, you seem very sure of faust being scum.  Can you refresh our memories as to why?

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

Three main reasons:

1) He was lurking pretty damn hard until D4, which in any respect is suspect. Then again, I can't complain much because I've been busy IRL too, but still it scares me. Especially because in the game I past two games I played where faust was scum (HoC and X-Men) he played in a very similar way (lurking pretty hard early game then beginning to get really into it near the end.)

2) He's been on the same wagon as scum 3 nights in a row.

3) He always begins to accuse people whenever people start voting for him, and he creates a new wagon, often in a OMGUS kind of way. Much like he did with me, early yesterday. And today.

Keep in mind this was at the beginning of the day, his replies have given me a pretty town feel for him and I'm beginning to believe he was just actually busy.  He's went from almost for sure scum in my book to leaning town. He suggested no lynches, analyzed each lynch option, everyone's post, and he's just been much more engaged in a very towny way.

Keeping that in mind, I've really been getting a scum feel on Andrew and mail-mi after quickly rereading today. Especially mail-mi's post where he asks if people will stop thinking he's scum after trying to let the ICs win the debate, which should just happen any way. I found that really damn scummy.

Because of that Vote: mail-mi

From there, I think he's more scummy than faust and at the very least less productive as a town member than faust.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Here is the research I've been doing over the past couple days.  A faust/DD team is consistent with:

--only 1 nk
--Andrew as the nk target
--faust not killing Archetype and expecting to be cleared (a team would have PR's)
--DD being "vehemently against" faust lynch, followed by "just fine" to lynch faust.
--DD suspecting faust strongly until asked about it, and then backing off completely.  Also, the main case he repeatedly made was that faust was lurking -- easily retracted once he was active, and maybe scum wanting to hear more from his partner.
--yuma double targeted

faust has a similar pattern as DD did with him, suspecting him early and then town reads until today:

769 votes DD
923 happy with DD vote
1036  DD would be SK, not HC because ...
1045  ...he forgot janitor and put Teproc and WW as townreads.
1057  DD towards or at bottom of both SK and HC possibilities
1087

vote: DD

1088

Hmmm. What do you think about Axxle?

1146 Says DD is off the table
1225 thinks DD is acting like HC - goes off to reread.
1226 [four minutes later] "Okay, my reasons to believe DeDe is not scum partner are good. Even though I find his above post on the scummy side, I'm not getting swayed just yet."
1430-1445 DD is scum, his post gives faust heebie-jeebies, DD has flawed reasoning.

One more thing,

1141

I just thought something scary...

So I don't really feel like anyone here is a really plausible choice for WW's and Teproc's partner. Which leaves me thinking, what if there is no other partner? What if this is multiball, with two two-member scum factions, like in Toy Story Mafia?

This feels disingenuous to me.  The possibility of two teams had been brought up multiple times before, for example:

WW dying as a nexus basically confirms a strong man kill and thus scum team, at least I see no other possibility. If that's the case we might not be looking for a Teproc/ww partner.

Here is the post with DD pulling back from his faust scumread that I meant to post earlier

DD, you seem very sure of faust being scum.  Can you refresh our memories as to why?

DD tenacity about faust also seems towny.  He hasn't been trying to get mislynches.  But I am still waiting for his answer to my question about why he keeps voting faust.

Three main reasons:

1) He was lurking pretty damn hard until D4, which in any respect is suspect. Then again, I can't complain much because I've been busy IRL too, but still it scares me. Especially because in the game I past two games I played where faust was scum (HoC and X-Men) he played in a very similar way (lurking pretty hard early game then beginning to get really into it near the end.)

2) He's been on the same wagon as scum 3 nights in a row.

3) He always begins to accuse people whenever people start voting for him, and he creates a new wagon, often in a OMGUS kind of way. Much like he did with me, early yesterday. And today.

Keep in mind this was at the beginning of the day, his replies have given me a pretty town feel for him and I'm beginning to believe he was just actually busy.  He's went from almost for sure scum in my book to leaning town. He suggested no lynches, analyzed each lynch option, everyone's post, and he's just been much more engaged in a very towny way.

Keeping that in mind, I've really been getting a scum feel on Andrew and mail-mi after quickly rereading today. Especially mail-mi's post where he asks if people will stop thinking he's scum after trying to let the ICs win the debate, which should just happen any way. I found that really damn scummy.

Because of that Vote: mail-mi

From there, I think he's more scummy than faust and at the very least less productive as a town member than faust.

Where I disagree that we're a team, I think Faust is scum. My votes there. Go ahead. He's scum.

[Archetype]

EFHW: I get the Yuma thing, but I don't put much stock in it considering it's from D1.

[Archetype]

This is my argument for why Axxle likely doesn't have a partner.  No one has responded to it.  I would like to know people's reactions.

Because all three of you were on this wagon for 2 rl days, with Axxle at L-1 the whole time, I am inclined to think none of you are his partner.

Vote Count 4.6:

Andrew (2):  mail-mi, EFHW
DD (1): Andrew
Axxle (3):  archetype, faust, DD
mail-mi (1):  Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on June 6 at 7:00 p.m.

Thank you for pulling this up - I totally forgot about it. This does point to Axxle being a SK if he is scum.

vote : Teproc

Sorry, man. You just seem to die early like all the time recently.

Yeah. I think the last time I made it past night 2 was Dynasty Warriors II...

It's a good thing I actually enjoy day 1

This is what I was trying to link to. Do you think scum partners would do this to each other? I wouldn't be this sympathetic if my partner got lynched.

[Archetype]

Well, I would be sympathetic, but I wouldn't vocalize it like Faust did.

[EFHW]

vote: faust

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.11:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (2):  DD, EFHW

Not Voting (2):  Arch, Axxle

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on June 16 at 7:00 p.m.

[Archetype]

vote: faust

So that's a no...?

[EFHW]

no to what?  vote faust please!

[EFHW]

if we vote axxle and he is town, we lose.  If faust is town, we still have a chance

[EFHW]

UNbelievable.

[EFHW]

My bad, carry on.

[Delirious Deleuze]

if we vote axxle and he is town, we lose.  If faust is town, we still have a chance

Makes sense.

If he flips HC then Axxel is the SK, because he'd have no incentive to lie about sk!axxel because if Axxel was town Faust would be outed to the SK.

If he flips town, then the SK and the mafia will shoot at each other tonight and town wins tomorrow.

[Delirious Deleuze]

if we vote axxle and he is town, we lose.  If faust is town, we still have a chance

Makes sense.

If he flips HC then Axxel is the SK, because he'd have no incentive to lie about sk!axxel because if Axxel was town Faust would be outed to the SK.

If he flips town, then the SK and the mafia will shoot at each other tonight and town wins tomorrow.

And if he's a second mafia faction you lynch me. If he's SK you lynch me.

[Archetype]

no to what?  vote faust please!

To Faust possibly being Teproc's partner? I asked the question when I pulled up that last quote.

[EFHW]

oh, I answered that awhile back.  I don't really make much of it.  I didn't even know what you thought it might indicate.  I think we have faust/DD team, anyway.

We have a little less than 24 hours.  I will listen to any and all arguments as to why I am wrong.

[EFHW]

If you think Axxle is SK and faust is not HC, then who do you think is HC?

[Archetype]

My final scum alignment guessing thingy:

If Faust flips Human Child, Axxle is SK
If Faust flips SK, DD is Human Child
If Faust flips 2nd Scum Team, DD OR Axxle could be his partner. I'm leaning DD.

[EFHW]

ok, I see you think it's DD Axxle.  You aren't clear as to whether you think they are partners.  You said a minute ago that you see that Axxle would probably be SK if anything.

I'd be interested in your reactions to the details of my case on faust/DD.

[Archetype]

oh, I answered that awhile back.  I don't really make much of it.  I didn't even know what you thought it might indicate.  I think we have faust/DD team, anyway.

We have a little less than 24 hours.  I will listen to any and all arguments as to why I am wrong.

Sorry, I guessed I missed it. Maybe it is nothing, but my gut tells me that they can't he can't be HC because of that. But your Axxle thing makes sense, so maybe DD is a second scum team.

Vote: faust

I'm going to be so upset if its DD/Axxle.

[EFHW]

My final scum alignment guessing thingy:

If Faust flips Human Child, Axxle is SK
If Faust flips SK, DD is Human Child
If Faust flips 2nd Scum Team, DD OR Axxle could be his partner. I'm leaning DD.

so you don't think he'll flip town.

[EFHW]

whoa.  That's the hammer then.  Kind of quick. 

[Archetype]

ok, I see you think it's DD Axxle.  You aren't clear as to whether you think they are partners.  You said a minute ago that you see that Axxle would probably be SK if anything.

I'd be interested in your reactions to the details of my case on faust/DD.

I'm just really confused because I thought for sure DD was Town. I can really see a DD/Axxle pairing, but hopefully we're right with Faust.

[Archetype]

My final scum alignment guessing thingy:

If Faust flips Human Child, Axxle is SK
If Faust flips SK, DD is Human Child
If Faust flips 2nd Scum Team, DD OR Axxle could be his partner. I'm leaning DD.

so you don't think he'll flip town.

"Scum alignment"

If he's Town, then DD/Axxle are scum. Either they're partners and win or aren't and shoot one another.

[Axxle]

Hahahahahahaha

[Archetype]

whoa.  That's the hammer then.  Kind of quick.

I took your "vote Faust please!"  to mean to hammer him.

[EFHW]

I got the date wrong.  That's why later I said "we have 24 hours"...

[Archetype]

Hahahahahahaha

Really??!?

[Archetype]

I got the date wrong.  That's why later I said "we have 24 hours"...

Oh. Well, I probably would still vote Faust.

[EFHW]

Hahahahahahaha

Really??!?

trolling

[Archetype]

Hahahahahahaha

Really??!?

trolling

I hope so.

[EFHW]

faust will never forgive me if it's Axxle/DD team.

[Axxle]

Hahahahahahaha

Really??!?

trolling

I hope so.

Yeah

[Delirious Deleuze]

faust will never forgive me if it's Axxle/DD team.

It's not ... So. Yea. I was honest

[Archetype]

Hahahahahahaha

Really??!?

trolling

I hope so.

Yeah

Oh thank goodness

[Delirious Deleuze]

Axxel and me aren't a team, as you'll see in a sec.

Me and Faust aren't either.

So Faust is HC and Axxel is SK.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Gahhhh do the flip.

[ashersky]

Day 5 Final Vote Count:

Axxle (1):  faust
faust (3):  DD, EFHW, Arch

Not Voting (1):  Axxle

With 5 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

[ashersky]

Thread locked.

[ashersky]

The remaining monsters gathered on the lawn, unsure of what to do.  They saw the sun inching closer to the horizon.  In the end, they had decided.

faust has been lynched!  He was the Human Child Traitor!

[ashersky]

"Well, that was a good thing!" Mike Wazowski said to the group.

"Yeah, not so much, buddy!  I've always said I'd get you back for teaming up against me with Sully!"

The group turned to see what monster had said that, and saw that the monster student with the hat...wasn't a monster student at all!  As his skin rippled and turned an odd purple, they could see he was Randall!

"I've taken my revenge, finally!  Randall forever!"

Town has been endgamed!

Delirious Deleuze, the Serial Killer-aligned, 1-Shot Deathproof, 2-Shot Optional Jack of All Trades wins!

[ashersky]

Mod QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/Ecbd3Vxe7kF
Mafia QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/34DpbmkWGzHSp
ICs' QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/NV58m5LeGgaxS
ROR QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/TE99tFdfvFXa
OZ QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/ETYN9MmwMs87J
PNK QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/HQfQMxf87bZks
PNK Back Door QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/3nxspiQaVDZ
Spectator QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/uNNAMf8UX7Z

[ashersky]

MVP to DD, obviously.

Note, I changed DD's role name for the flip, but not the role.

I mentioned this in the speccy, but town had to mislynch anyone, including EFHW, for the game to continue (or lynch DD).

[ashersky]

Ummmm...thread unlocked, game over guys.  No need to post in QTs anymore.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I did this too

[liopoil]

so DD wins because even if he is lynched the next day he doesn't die, and then kills another townie and wins?

I didn't really follow this, but very impressive to win as SK for sure.

[ashersky]

so DD wins because even if he is lynched the next day he doesn't die, and then kills another townie and wins?

I didn't really follow this, but very impressive to win as SK for sure.

Right.  He was never lynched or shot all game, and town had no way to stop kills or shoot him at night remaining.  He could kill tonight (Arch), do whatever he wanted tomorrow, survive, then kill again at night and win.

[Delirious Deleuze]

so DD wins because even if he is lynched the next day he doesn't die, and then kills another townie and wins?

I didn't really follow this, but very impressive to win as SK for sure.

Yeah, I must have still had deathproof. I figured I'd either have that if faust shot arch, or he shot me and I lost it, I kill arch tonight, we lynch axxel tomorrow

[yuma]

Fun game! Crazy ending! Alas my double kill N1 goes in vain!

Great performance from DD. Town ended up pretty good but man that no-lynch really, really put town into a hole.

[ashersky]

Might be the first time we've had IC survive to the end of a game.  Especially with a scum win.

[ashersky]

SK PM:

Welcome to Monsters University. You are the Serial Killer-aligned 1-Shot Deathproof, 1-Shot Optional Bulletproof, 1-Shot Optional Jack of All Trades

Each night, you may perform a night kill.

You have a 1-Shot passive Deathproof. The first time you would die, for any reason, will automatically fail. You will not be told when this is used up.

Once at night, you may opt to forego your night kill in exchange for 1-Shot bulletproof protection that night only.

Once at night, you may opt to forego your night kill in exchange for one of the following actions:

1-Shot Follower (Find out what form of action your target took that night)
1-Shot Tracker (Find out whom your target targeted that night)
1-Shot Fruit Vendor (Give your target a piece of fruit)

You win when you are the only player left alive, or nothing can stop that from happening.


You are also a member of the Oozma Kappa fraternity!  You may talk with your fraternity brothers here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ETYN9MmwMs87J.

[ashersky]

As mentioned, I renamed that in the flip.  I should have just added 1-Shot BP as a JOAT option.  Made more sense and was easier that way.  So a 2-Shot JOAT, 1-Shot Deathproof SK.

(EFHW, this role was for you.)

[ashersky]

Faust's PM:

Welcome to Monsters University. You are the Human Child Traitor.

The mafia do not know you exist, and you do not know anything about the mafia. However, on any night, if you would die as the result of the mafia's factional night kill, you will survive. You will not be told that this happened, nor will the mafia. You will join their factional QT the following night.

You win when the human children control the town, or nothing can stop that from happening.


You are also a member of the Python Nu Kappa sorority.  You may talk to your sorority sisters here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/HQfQMxf87bZks

[ashersky]

And Arch:

Welcome to Monsters University. You are the Town 2-Shot Timid Sensor.

Once each night, up to two nights, you may ask the mod one of two questions about the previous day's lynch wagon. You may ask:

"Was there scum on the wagon?" or "Was there scum off the wagon?"

You will receive a "Yes" or "No" answer from the Mod. Any night that you ask a question, the answer will only refer to the previous day.

You win when all threats to the University are expelled.


You are also a member of the Oozma Kappa fraternity!  You may talk with your fraternity brothers here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ETYN9MmwMs87J.

[ashersky]

All the other PMs were basically normal things you'd expect.

[yuma]

Also arch missing the night action deadline (night2) really hurt town a lot! As that could have found out mafia really quickly!

Deadlines are important!

[EFHW]

As mentioned, I renamed that in the flip.  I should have just added 1-Shot BP as a JOAT option.  Made more sense and was easier that way.  So a 2-Shot JOAT, 1-Shot Deathproof SK.

(EFHW, this role was for you.)

Thanks!

[EFHW]

Well, I had the right scum, just wrong relationship. 

[EFHW]

So why was there only 1 nk N4?

[EFHW]

Might be the first time we've had IC survive to the end of a game.  Especially with a scum win.

Probably not a claim to fame.

[EFHW]

Thanks for being town, Axxle!

[ashersky]

So why was there only 1 nk N4?

faust shot Arch, who commuted.

[ashersky]

So I don't think Arch knows the game ended.  He's still using the Oozma Kappa QT. 

[Axxle]

Was this winnable?

[yuma]

Was this winnable?

Yes. For sure it was. Just had to take a really weird route to get there. Or town needed to play better earlier...

[Witherweaver]

Well I called Faust/DD a long time ago!  I just thought they were on a team

[ashersky]

Was this winnable?

On D5, best possible play was lynch DD to pop his deathproof.

On N5, Faust and DD shoot each other, town wins.  Or Faust shoots DD, who uses his BP.  If that happens...

On D6, you lynch DD because lynchproof is scummy.  Then you get a lylo with Faust on D7.

I mean, I guess on N5, scum could have shot other people, but I think that was most likely.

If there was a mislynch, it was possible that Faust shoots DD, DD shoots Faust, and town lynches DD for the win.

[Axxle]

Why did Faust lie?

[Witherweaver]

Ironic that Andrew and I could have probably agreed on DD if we didn't have that big fight. 

[Delirious Deleuze]

Why did Faust lie?

This. I was super confused by this.

[ashersky]

Why did Faust lie?

Good question.

His actual prize was a 1-Shot Roleblock.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Why did Faust lie?

Good question.

His actual prize was a 1-Shot Roleblock.

Hmm so did he use that on arch?

[ashersky]

Why did Faust lie?

Good question.

His actual prize was a 1-Shot Roleblock.

Hmm so did he use that on arch?

Andrew.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ugh.

[Robz888]

Disappointing.

[Delirious Deleuze]

Ugh.

Disappointing.

<3

[AndrewisFTTW]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

[Delirious Deleuze]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

I killed you because of that... and because I knew mafia wouldn't target you. And because confusion

[faust]

Why did Faust lie?

The day started, and I saw Arch was still alive. I thought crap, he will have a result on me. That meant I needed to paint him as scum. But then again, if he was lynched, he'd flip town, and I'd be outed. So I'd have to lynch the SK first, and then Arch. I (wrongly) picked Axxle as SK, hoping to get two lynches through and win.

[faust]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

You weren't right about me defending WW. I didn't know WW was my partner.

[AndrewisFTTW]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

You weren't right about me defending WW. I didn't know WW was my partner.

Oh... why not?

[faust]

Endgame was hilarious. I think I got one of the hardest roles to play with, and managed it pretty well. Also, obviously, I was lynched for the entirely wrong reasons 

[faust]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

You weren't right about me defending WW. I didn't know WW was my partner.

Oh... why not?

I was Traitor, I didn't get to know who my partners are, which made this game pretty difficult for me.

On the other hand of course, Traitor is nice because you won't have any incriminating interactions with your partners.

[AndrewisFTTW]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

You weren't right about me defending WW. I didn't know WW was my partner.

Oh... why not?

I was Traitor, I didn't get to know who my partners are, which made this game pretty difficult for me.

On the other hand of course, Traitor is nice because you won't have any incriminating interactions with your partners.

Oh I misunderstood what a Traitor was. I need to sit down and read up on all these roles one of these days.

[Axxle]

This was the most frustrating mafia game I've played. I'm going to have to reread things before I point out specifics.

[Teproc]

I played horribly, sorry faust ! Killing yuma was really dumb, it was just me being paranoid, should have shot one of the ICs.

Congrats to DD, SKs are all the rage these days ! Although that was a fairly powerful SK (still impressive though).

[Teproc]

Looking at DD's QT, he had great reads too.

[Teproc]

Oh, and I'm a little curious : what was the point of the Janitor role I had ? I don't really see it, especialy in a game with two ICs which are likely what you want to kill first (ahem).

[Archetype]

Also arch missing the night action deadline (night2) really hurt town a lot! As that could have found out mafia really quickly!

Deadlines are important!

Ugh. Seriously, LVP. This was the PM I sent to ash:

Welcome to Monsters University. You are the Town 2-Shot Timid Sensor.

Once each night, up to two nights, you may ask the mod one of two questions about the previous day's lynch wagon. You may ask:

"Was there scum on the wagon?" or "Was there scum off the wagon?"

You will receive a "Yes" or "No" answer from the Mod. Any night that you ask a question, the answer will only refer to the previous day.

You win when all threats to the University are expelled.


You are also a member of the Oozma Kappa fraternity!  You may talk with your fraternity brothers here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ETYN9MmwMs87J.

I'll use a shot and ask "Was there scum off the wagon?"

Sorry, the action submission deadline (extended to 48 hours for N2) passed before you submitted this order.

Seriously?! Darn. This was, like, the optimal time to use my power. Hopefully it's not too big of a deal when the game ends.

Man, yeah. It was that big of a deal. That would've put at least 1 scum between WW and Andrew. Most likely would've gotten WW lynched since I had a Townread on Andrew. Ugh.

Anyways, great job DD! You had me fooled! When faust flipped and you started talking in the QT, I thought that the HC were a 4 man scum team and you were the remaining member. Then I went AFK and realized that that made no sense because of the flavor. And when I got back, it turned out the game had already ended. Darn. But, well played! I was so zeroed in on Axxle having to be scum that I think by default I gave you many more town points than you deserved. So, yeah. Good job! You're SK QT freaks me out though.

[Archetype]

Why did Faust lie?

The day started, and I saw Arch was still alive. I thought crap, he will have a result on me. That meant I needed to paint him as scum. But then again, if he was lynched, he'd flip town, and I'd be outed. So I'd have to lynch the SK first, and then Arch. I (wrongly) picked Axxle as SK, hoping to get two lynches through and win.

Why didn't you just say you Roleblocked him? I mean, Tracking someone is more definite than blocking someone and seeing a missing kill. But I guess I'd still vote for you since it'd be more likely that you tried to shoot me over Axxle.

[Witherweaver]

It was frustrating how nobody wanted to listen to me this game. Even moreso since I was right about DD. And WW. And faust defending WW. And whatever. It's mafia and that's what happens in mafia. I'm slowly coming to terms with this.

Well the weird thing was, during that day of our argument, I was starting to come along and see DD as scum.  But when I started pointing things out about him, you went after me.  Throughout a lot of that I thought you were town, but I eventually started to think that you and DD were a team.  I was actually more sure about DD than I was about you, but it was late in the day. 

So I would have listened to you about DD, but you basically ignored my points on DD, and that, together with your statement that you didn't consider the possibility that any other player would consider 2 separate Mafia teams when DD had specifically brought it up, made me think your scumread on him was disingenuous. 

An unrelated topic.. it was completely by accident that I missed the deadline that day and had a no lynch.  I was caught up doing other stuff (and was mobile the whole day) and didn't even check to see when the deadline was coming up.  That was unfortunate. 

[Archetype]

Oh, and thanks for modding ash! I loved the Scare Games and thought the prizes were cool without being too overpowered. I also loved my role, I thought it was a really nice way to weaken the power of a Sensor. That endgame scenario was really tense and fun/frustrating to narrow down the possible scum pairings.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well I was pretty convinced you were scum so your reads didn't really mean much to me.

[Witherweaver]

Well I was pretty convinced you were scum so your reads didn't really mean much to me.

Right, well, makes sense.  From my perspective, I knew I had no more partners and two scum to find (though I had no clue one would end up being on my team), so I was genuinely wanting to find them.  Though no one else knew that.

Anyway, good catch on seeing DD early.

Also, DD, why did you shoot Yuma day 1?

[Delirious Deleuze]

Well I was pretty convinced you were scum so your reads didn't really mean much to me.

Right, well, makes sense.  From my perspective, I knew I had no more partners and two scum to find (though I had no clue one would end up being on my team), so I was genuinely wanting to find them.  Though no one else knew that.

Anyway, good catch on seeing DD early.

Also, DD, why did you shoot Yuma day 1?

I was scared he'd figure me out.

[faust]

Just a side note on this game - I thought that Archetype's role here was too swingy for a normal game. I mean, it has the potential to clear half of the players in the game as town on D2. It obviously worked out here, so no harm done, but I personally shy away from including such roles. ashersky, what was your thought process for including that role?

[ashersky]

Just a side note on this game - I thought that Archetype's role here was too swingy for a normal game. I mean, it has the potential to clear half of the players in the game as town on D2. It obviously worked out here, so no harm done, but I personally shy away from including such roles. ashersky, what was your thought process for including that role?

I had a slight worry with the Sensor.  It isn't the published version, with the question adjusted to weaken it.  What complicated things which I didn't think of was how having ICs on the wagon narrowed down the results.  Then we had a scum self-vote, which did the same thing.

It was the final role added in, as I was looking for one more small addition.  With 4 scum, I found it hard to believe they'd end up all on or all of a lynch.

Definitely swingy.  That isn't a bad thing sometimes, but yes, it was worrisome at times.

[yuma]

Just a side note on this game - I thought that Archetype's role here was too swingy for a normal game. I mean, it has the potential to clear half of the players in the game as town on D2. It obviously worked out here, so no harm done, but I personally shy away from including such roles. ashersky, what was your thought process for including that role?

yeah... ash and I had a good conversation about it. And like ash already said it was the selfvote that made the situation awkward. Just another reason to never self vote people!

I do think that because it was a role no one did, or really could anticipate, it was strange. And unless it becomes more common as a regular role--not necessarily something that should happen I think--would work best in open setups so mafia can be aware of how they want to place their votes. But I think it worked fine here.

[ashersky]

Yuma is right that it's better in an Open setup, although multiple factions throws that off, too.

[Teproc]

yeah... ash and I had a good conversation about it. And like ash already said it was the selfvote that made the situation awkward. Just another reason to never self vote people!

Self-hammering as scum is generally good, you know this since you've done it a few times yourself. Obviously I didn't know that this particular setup made it awkward.

[Axxle]

Ok I got it to a few major points:

1. 7 days is too short. Pretty much every single day went to time. Compounded on that people kept differing to the ICs, which took time.

2. Scum was very hard to read in this game. Everyone differing to the ICs all the time made people really hard to read. I mean I guess WW was scum, so now I know to look for that tell, but it was super frustrating at the time. A traitor meant we couldn't tie him with his teammates at all. An SK was the same thing, although understandable.

3. I came into this game thinking that the scare games were going to be really important. The first item was literally useless since the QT that was spied on was told about it and given another place to talk. The second item was antitown, but only worked half the time. And was *another* unlynchable that we had to work around (see below). Those made me not really care all that much about the third one, and when Arch (rightfully) lied about the third one as being a QT creator, a meh power that doesn't really matter if it gets into scum hands. That made me not care at all about the last one either.

4. Town should *not* have to play around an unlynchable player. It throws all assumptions out the window. Town had two mislynches and lost, that's not balanced.


Thanks for taking the time to mod, ash. 

[Axxle]

I think others had fun, which means the game was fun. Just not my cup of tea.

[Witherweaver]

Ok I got it to a few major points:

1. 7 days is too short. Pretty much every single day went to time. Compounded on that people kept differing to the ICs, which took time.

2. Scum was very hard to read in this game. Everyone differing to the ICs all the time made people really hard to read. I mean I guess WW was scum, so now I know to look for that tell, but it was super frustrating at the time. A traitor meant we couldn't tie him with his teammates at all. An SK was the same thing, although understandable.

3. I came into this game thinking that the scare games were going to be really important. The first item was literally useless since the QT that was spied on was told about it and given another place to talk. The second item was antitown, but only worked half the time. And was *another* unlynchable that we had to work around (see below). Those made me not really care all that much about the third one, and when Arch (rightfully) lied about the third one as being a QT creator, a meh power that doesn't really matter if it gets into scum hands. That made me not care at all about the last one either.

4. Town should *not* have to play around an unlynchable player. It throws all assumptions out the window. Town had two mislynches and lost, that's not balanced.


Thanks for taking the time to mod, ash.

What's my tell?

(I think me being in a game is a pretty reliable one.)

[Axxle]

What's my tell?

(I think me being in a game is a pretty reliable one.)

Oh, just trying to delay the game and (not sure if intentionally) frustrating me with differing to the ICs constantly. Or once. I have to reread that.

[Witherweaver]

What's my tell?

(I think me being in a game is a pretty reliable one.)

Oh, just trying to delay the game and (not sure if intentionally) frustrating me with differing to the ICs constantly. Or once. I have to reread that.

Ah, well, I'm not sure I would have done any differently as town.  Hard to say.

[Axxle]

Ash, why did you disallow the frat/sor leaders to talk about our player lists?

[ashersky]

Ash, why did you disallow the frat/sor leaders to talk about our player lists?

I didn't want the distraction of trying to "solve" anything with that.

On your other points, good ones all.

I also thought about making the Games matter more.  But I feared the opposite complaint, that they would affect the game too much and would be unfair based on neighborhood makeup.  I do think lynchproof is an annoyance, but I thought it was tempered by the half chance thing.  Ended up not mattering.

I'm glad people had fun.  I've tossed around an open version in the mod QT which could be better.  It ended up being a lot of work, given all the QTs, extra games, etc.

[Archetype]

I'm glad the games were a minor thing. My only real complaint is that all the items weren't totally balanced. I'd also rather have stronger items be given at the beginning and get weaker as they go, that way they have less swing in the late game.

But that's just my opinion. I thought it was as-is too!

[EFHW]

What's my tell?

(I think me being in a game is a pretty reliable one.)

Oh, just trying to delay the game and (not sure if intentionally) frustrating me with differing to the ICs constantly. Or once. I have to reread that.

Actually, I should have been suspicious when he was the only one who took me up on suspecting Andrew.

[Witherweaver]

What's my tell?

(I think me being in a game is a pretty reliable one.)

Oh, just trying to delay the game and (not sure if intentionally) frustrating me with differing to the ICs constantly. Or once. I have to reread that.

Actually, I should have been suspicious when he was the only one who took me up on suspecting Andrew.

I thought that one point you raised against Andrew was valid, actually.  Maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded as if he was admitting to choosing a reaction rather than just reacting. 

Remember, from my perspective it was just Teproc and I, and we both thought there was another 2-person scum team.  It was paramount for me to find them so we could shift the hunt away from Teproc's partner.  So Day 3 I was legitimately trying to find the other scum.

What surprised me was that no one went along with suspecting DD.