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[Narz]

There's probably a thread on this already, if so maybe they can be merged?

I hate King's Court, Possession (really don't like Alchemy in general), Rebuild.  Baron is annoying too (you can get too unlucky right off the bat).

[jsh357]

The Four Horsemen: Rebuild, Governor, Tournament, Margrave.  Of those, I probably like Tournament the most and Rebuild the least.

[Jimmmmm]

Why Margrave?

I love King's Court.

[jsh357]

Why Margrave?

I love King's Court.

For one, the additional draw before discard makes it take longer to resolve (not as bad as Torturer, but with Torturer there's at least an interesting choice to be made) and it would have been pretty good already without the attack.  I don't know; I just find it to be a very frustrating card to play and get hit by.  It feels strong for the wrong reasons.

[Tables]

There's a few I really dislike, mainly cards which any moderately good player can pick, play a super boring deck, and still win a significant proportion (like 35-40%) of the time against much better (although not top) players. Things like Rebuild, Hunting Party and perhaps one or two others fit into this category.

[KingZog3]

I used to hate a lot of cards. But now I only really dislike Rebuild, Minion and Tournament.  Goons is fun, Possession has too many strange interactions and I find that really interesting, even if can be a bit annoying. Hunting Party is good, but not annoying. Oh yeah, and Black Market, but I don't have it so I almost never play with it.

[LibraryAdventurer]

Two cards I hate more than any others: Tournament, Possesion.
After that would come King's Court and Rebuild.

[Axxle]

Black Market/Tournament probably.

[Aidan Millow]

1: Torturer (Swingy and the game can easily be decided early but still need a lot of miserable playing out unless you want to resign)
2: Tournament (Really, really swingy)
3: Rebuild (Very frequently makes most of the rest of the board almost irrelevant)

[Jean-Michel]

Hamlet. It's just too annoying to play with, both IRL and Goko. And it's overrated.

[Eevee]

Rebuild and familiar. And honestly, compared to rebuild, familiar is all fun and games.

[Awaclus]

Goons, because I don't like discard attacks (Minion, Urchin and Cutpurse are fine, because a 4-card hand is still pretty good) and Goons is so powerful that it's pretty much always a must-buy. According to CouncilRoom, it also happens to be the only card whose "win rate given avail" for me was less than 1 (and I wouldn't be surprised if it still was).

[silverspawn]

masquerade, masquerade, masquerade, masquerade, masquerade and possession. rebuild also isn't that great, though far not as bad

[dominion123]

I don't like rebuild, tournament and highway. I often enjoy kings court, but I don't like when it is too impactful and leads to imbalanced games.

[Jimmmmm]

Why Highway?

[Nik]

What's wrong with King's Court?

[Awaclus]

What's wrong with King's Court?

Drawing two of them with Stables, Moneylender and Estate.

[GwinnR]

I'm doing the same thing in the german forums with two systems: A and B.
Way less effectiv as the lists from Qvist, but still...

The cards I don't like:
1) Golem
2) Possession
3) Goons
4) Pirate Ship
5) Ghost Ship

My lists lead to the result, that these are the most hated cards (without Guilds, and not so sure about the Dark Ages cards, because I could not use so many lists for them yet):
1) Knights
2) Rebuild
3) Swindler
4) Vagrant
5) Smuggler
6) Sea Hag
7) Possession
8) Urchin/Mercenary
9) Graverobber
10) Thief

[Jimmmmm]

Why Vagrant?

[GwinnR]

Why Vagrant?

I think because it is boring. But as I said, the Dark Ages cards are not so well ranked yet.

[Witherweaver]

I really dislike Jack of All Trades.  I also dislike Council Room.  I'm not sure why.. but I hate playing it, because my opponent gets a card.  And I hate playing against it, because my opponent gets four cards.  I think I grew a strong dislike of it when playing the base set adventures, because Council Room/Money seemed like the best strategy almost all the time that it was out.  And I generally don't like money decks. Okay not good reasons, but I just don't like it. 

[Witherweaver]

Oh, and because of the Goko interface, I hate Urchin.  Because if you want to use it without trashing it for a Mercenary, Goko keeps annoying with questions about trashing it. 

[SirPeebles]

There's a few I really dislike, mainly cards which any moderately good player can pick, play a super boring deck, and still win a significant proportion (like 35-40%) of the time against much better (although not top) players. Things like Rebuild, Hunting Party and perhaps one or two others fit into this category.

That reminds me of this Extra Credits episode:

[markusin]

Oh, and because of the Goko interface, I hate Urchin.  Because if you want to use it without trashing it for a Mercenary, Goko keeps annoying with questions about trashing it.

You said it, although that's not inherently Urchin's fault. What's really annoying is when the game is decided by one person getting Mercenary considerably earlier than another player, considering that it's a counter to itself. I guess the solution to that is to do the Urchin/Urchin/Urchin opening that SCSN keeps hyping up.

Probably my least favourite card is Swindler. Two players open with it, but one keeps hitting Estates and Provinces while the other hits Coppers and turns Labs into Counting Houses. Swingler's saving grace is its ability to bring Scouts into play.

I don't care much for Peddler either. The cost reduction mechanic is compelling, but the freebie nature of Peddler makes it so that you'll pretty much always pick them up at 0 with extra buys, something that tends to happen in your engines anyway. It's not usually strategically deep unless getting the Peddlers still requires some investment, either due to lack of +buy or lack of +1 actions besides Peddler.

[LastFootnote]

What's wrong with King's Court?

Drawing two of them with Stables, Moneylender and Estate.

If you bought Stables and Moneylender, you've dug your own grave.

I used to hate Governor and Goons, but I've come around. I despise Minion because the games where it skips all your bad hands do not nearly outweigh the ones where it skips your good hands. It's just so maddening.

[DG]

After really not minding them for a while I have gone back to jester and swindler. I don't mind the fact that they're random, even basic cards can be randomly bad, but they circumvent deck planning too much for my liking. The Goko bots, for example, are quite good with jesters and swindlers because they never really plan ahead, they just analyze the current game state.

[BraveBear]

I hate Scrying Pool.

I played a lot IRL and SP always made the games take FOREVER and I never really played it well.

Now on Goko I try my hardest to never go for it, which means I get killed by it always.  Then I try for a once and awhile and BM beats me.  I know the card isn't that hard to play but it seems like I always go for it on the wrong boards and ignore it when its amazing.

[GreyICE]

In person?  Philosopher's Stone.  At least the other cards that take forever do weird and cool things (they just, y'know, take forever).  Philo stone it's like *count count count, oops recount* "Oh hey guys only 14 cards it's a silver.  Worth.

Online?  Fucking Tournament.  I have yet to play a Tournament game that felt fun in any way.  In person it at least does not consume your life the way Philo stone does (if people buy it and use it).

Also Iggy for degenerating the game into a ridiculous state rapidly.

[dominion123]

what is iggy?

[Awaclus]

what is iggy?

Ill-Gotten Gains.

[silverspawn]

what is iggy?

i love the display of creativity that is your name

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

IGG, Possession, Tournament, Rebuild

[SirPeebles]

what is iggy?

i love the display of creativity that is your name

She does Minion every single game...

[michaeljb]

Minion and Rebuild.

Swindler can be horrible, but I think I'm more positive about it since the last game it hit me hard, Trader helped me turn my deck around and I came out with the win (game 3 in this post).

There are some more cards that I really don't like on the wrong board, but those other 3 stand out.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't mind cards so much as I do certain openings or having Chapel on turn 3 or getting several four hands in a row before hitting 5. Like someone opening 5/2 with Cultist usually has a huge advantage over someone with 3/4 on a Cultist board. I guess if I had to pick cards, I will go with Swindler for its swinginess.

I think Tournament, IGG, and Rebuild have more strategy involved than people realize. I also see players going for Tournament all the time when they should not.

[LibraryAdventurer]

I also see players going for Tournament all the time when they should not.

Like I did here:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140308/log.51354134e4b07cef8209f582.1394338126568.txt
It doesn't make me hate tournament any less (as you might imagine if you look at that log).

[eHalcyon]

1: Torturer (Swingy and the game can easily be decided early but still need a lot of miserable playing out unless you want to resign)

How is Torturer swingy?  It's annoying, but a single play of it is not devastating nor particularly luck-based.  A full-blown Torturer engine hurts, but it takes effort to build a deck to that point so I would not call it swingy.  Still worthy of being hated, but not swingy.

[Awaclus]

1: Torturer (Swingy and the game can easily be decided early but still need a lot of miserable playing out unless you want to resign)

How is Torturer swingy?  It's annoying, but a single play of it is not devastating nor particularly luck-based.  A full-blown Torturer engine hurts, but it takes effort to build a deck to that point so I would not call it swingy.  Still worthy of being hated, but not swingy.

Often, it's a mirror match and whoever happens to get the engine running first has a huge advantage. And usually it's the first player. It's definitely swingy, though not as swingy as some other cards.

[Axxle]

Instead of least favorite card I wonder what the least favorited card is?

[Awaclus]

Instead of least favorite card I wonder what the least favorited card is?

Harvest?

[Teproc]

Rebuild, Familiar and Swindler would be the main offenders. Not very original, but eh, there are good reasons to hate those cards.

[SirPeebles]

Instead of least favorite card I wonder what the least favorited card is?

Harvest?

Some men hunt King's Court,
Others hunt for Goons,
The only thing I'm hunting for
Is a sifter which makes food.

See Harvest, see Harvest,
Some vanilla coin, at its best,
Fear my Trader, there's no greater,
Than a would-gain Curse upgrader.

See Vineyard,  'twas my card,
Trashed my Coppers with Steward,
And this Fortress is the village
From which I shall launch my Pillage.

On my coast, an Outpost,
Alchemists, I've got the most,
Bouquet of Farmland, on my Island
It shall rest,

Try my readied Tribute,
Score one bonus or two,
See Harvest, see Harvest
See Harvest.

My friend Tables?  Passed him Stables -
Don't have a deck which it enables,
But playing all of his cards also
Would be best,

So let's prepare Possession,
(Play two for twice the session,)
See Harvest, see Harvest,
Oh please, won't you see Harvest

I really like Harvest.

[markusin]

Instead of least favorite card I wonder what the least favorited card is?

Harvest?

Some men hunt King's Court,
Others hunt for Goons,
The only thing I'm hunting for
Is a sifter which makes food.

See Harvest, see Harvest,
Some vanilla coin, at its best,
Fear my Trader, there's no greater,
Than a would-gain Curse upgrader.

See Vineyard,  'twas my card,
Trashed my Coppers with Steward,
And this Fortress is the village
From which I shall launch my Pillage.

On my coast, an Outpost,
Alchemists, I've got the most,
Bouquet of Farmland, on my Island
It shall rest,

Try my readied Tribute,
Score one bonus or two,
See Harvest, see Harvest
See Harvest.

My friend Tables?  Passed him Stables -
Don't have a deck which it enables,
But playing all of his cards also
Would be best,

So let's prepare Possession,
(Play two for twice the session,)
See Harvest, see Harvest,
Oh please, won't you see Harvest

I really like Harvest.

I only got the reference at that line.

[eHalcyon]

1: Torturer (Swingy and the game can easily be decided early but still need a lot of miserable playing out unless you want to resign)

How is Torturer swingy?  It's annoying, but a single play of it is not devastating nor particularly luck-based.  A full-blown Torturer engine hurts, but it takes effort to build a deck to that point so I would not call it swingy.  Still worthy of being hated, but not swingy.

Often, it's a mirror match and whoever happens to get the engine running first has a huge advantage. And usually it's the first player. It's definitely swingy, though not as swingy as some other cards.

I'm still going to say that it's not that swingy.  Getting the engine running first is not something that usually happens just from luck.  The more skillful player will do it better and also respond better to getting attacked in return.  The skillful player will also do better at tuning the engine based on the given board.

[Asper]

Cards that are strong and boring, like Ill-Gotten-Gains and Rebuild are the worst kind to me, because they weaken Dominion play to very simple formulas. This is also what is awful about Minion - and while it's not that strong when the pile is spilt between 3 or more players (which is almost always the case in my games), it's annoying enough to make up for that. This is also what i dislike about Scrying Pool (need to mention i usually play IRL). Wharf is another strong card i don't like - again because it is boring and turns around Wharf are really frustrating to sit through. Plus it's strong enough to be relevent almost always when it appears.

Nothing beats the unavoidable blandness of Rebuild though. I really hate that card.

[hvb]

#1 by far is Rebuild. Its the only card in Dominion where i don´t want to play when the setup pops up. Other cards i don´t like are Swindler, Cultist and any sort of Throne Rooms, especially Kings Court. I am fine with cards like Tournament, Possession or IGG.

[AHoppy]

I don't understand the KC hate.  I find that it's actually skippable more often than people give it credit for...

I also don't get the posession hate.  I hardly ever have it actually come into play, and I like how it changes the way you have to think about the game.  IRL though, I hate it, but only because I get confused about what happens in those weird situations it can cause (double posesisons and stuff) and mostly since I play with more than 2P IRL, it becomes slightly more annoying.

As far as cards I actually dislike:
Smugglers - Never seems to be on my side, always on my opponent's side
Knights - I never really know what to do with them...
Familiar - The whole 3P thing is kinda annoying, especially when you can't hit it
Remake - I don't understand this card still
Procession - I understand it even less

[dominion123]

Maybe there should be a poll about this. Don't know if the polls allow for that many options, but the ones suggested in this thread at least.

[Stealth Tomato]

Oh, and because of the Goko interface, I hate Urchin.  Because if you want to use it without trashing it for a Mercenary, Goko keeps annoying with questions about trashing it.

You said it, although that's not inherently Urchin's fault. What's really annoying is when the game is decided by one person getting Mercenary considerably earlier than another player, considering that it's a counter to itself. I guess the solution to that is to do the Urchin/Urchin/Urchin opening that SCSN keeps hyping up.

Probably my least favourite card is Swindler. Two players open with it, but one keeps hitting Estates and Provinces while the other hits Coppers and turns Labs into Counting Houses. Swingler's saving grace is its ability to bring Scouts into play.

I don't care much for Peddler either. The cost reduction mechanic is compelling, but the freebie nature of Peddler makes it so that you'll pretty much always pick them up at 0 with extra buys, something that tends to happen in your engines anyway. It's not usually strategically deep unless getting the Peddlers still requires some investment, either due to lack of +buy or lack of +1 actions besides Peddler.

Peddler is frustrating because it can give one of the highest P1 advantages in the game. A decent number of Peddler boards become a race for the Peddlers, and players pick them up 3-4 at a time rather than one at a time. As a result, P1 gets 3, P2 gets 3, and P1 gets the rest for a 7-3 split even though both players were at the same pace. P2, frozen out of the Peddler race, would probably be better going for a non-Peddler deck... except that a stack of 10 Peddlers is often unstoppably powerful.


But my least favorite card is probably Young Witch, for a few reasons.

• Successful plays make it harder to defend against later YWs (since they lower Bane density), which can lead to lopsided Curse splits for no good reason.
• The Bane becomes an incredibly important card, which is awful when it has anti-synergy with YW or is just bad in the early game. This slows down the game as players are forced to either buy Banes instead of improving their deck, or contend with extra Curses.
• Any terminal Bane + the terminal draw of YW makes other terminals (and even weak cantrips) unpalatable, leading to a lot of decks full of Silver and Curses (oh boy, what fun!).

I don't understand the KC hate.  I find that it's actually skippable more often than people give it credit for...

I also don't get the posession hate.  I hardly ever have it actually come into play, and I like how it changes the way you have to think about the game.  IRL though, I hate it, but only because I get confused about what happens in those weird situations it can cause (double posesisons and stuff) and mostly since I play with more than 2P IRL, it becomes slightly more annoying.

Possession is awful because of the incredibly stupid situations it can create. Ambassador or Masquerade can lead to first-play-wins (since you can then pass your opponent's Possessions to yourself, followed by power cards and Provinces). Any number of situations can lead to multiple Possessions per turn, at which point both players' primary goal is to trash their own deck's ability to do anything but play Possessions.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think my three least favorite cards are Rebuild, Mountebank, and Soothsayer.  The reason is that each of these cards distracts heavily from the rest of the kingdom.  With Rebuild it's obvious; a very large number of Rebuild games just involve ignoring all but one or two kingdom cards, and getting a few Silvers and then Duchies/Estates/Provinces.  Mountebank and Soothsayer have the problem of diluting players' decks with two base cards at a time, so that you see your fun kingdom cards a lot less often, and it doesn't help that both are very strong, so you can't get away with ignoring them.  Other junking attacks have this problem but to a much lesser extent.  I actually think the cursing tied with the card-drawing on Soothsayer is a cool mechanic, I wish it had been done on something that didn't flood you with Gold.  Silver flooders or cards that reward silver flooding (Feodum) are also not fun for this reason in my opinion.

I also hate swingy cards: Cultist, Tournament, Familiar, probably others.  I like to be able to credit myself for my wins and blame myself for my losses, but often times you just can't catch up after your opponent gets two Cultists on his second shuffle, or if you miss $3P on yours.  Also, aside from being swingy, I don't like how Tournament breaks the negative feedback mechanic of Dominion by actually making your deck improve when you get Provinces (at least for the first one or two Provinces).

I don't mind the fact that Minion is strong and self-synergizing, because I think you can still build cool engines with it incorporating other kingdom cards; but I don't like the discard attack, since it can be really swingy (and since the way to fight it is to load up on Minions yourself, so you can sift through bad 4-card hands).

[Nik]

Nobody has mentioned Wishing Well or Mystic yet...WAY too swingy and rely too much on luck.

[markusin]

Nobody has mentioned Wishing Well or Mystic yet...WAY too swingy and rely too much on luck.

2 things here:

1. It's not the end of the game by any means if you guess wrong, and both players will have their hit or miss moments. I wouldn't call it WAY too swingy. Wishing Well is often something you pick up because you don't want more Silver. Mystic has synergy with a bunch of cards, including itself.

2. Deck tracking can increase the chances that you make a correct guess.

[eHalcyon]

Nobody has mentioned Wishing Well or Mystic yet...WAY too swingy and rely too much on luck.

2 things here:

1. It's not the end of the game by any means if you guess wrong, and both players will have their hit or miss moments. I wouldn't call it WAY too swingy. Wishing Well is often something you pick up because you don't want more Silver. Mystic has synergy with a bunch of cards, including itself.

2. Deck tracking can increase the chances that you make a correct guess.

Similar to #1, it also isn't a complete coup if you DO guess successfully.  When I think of swingy cards, I think of cards where a little bit of luck (good or bad) can lead to a huge advantage for one player.  Things like matching up Tournament and Province early, or Sea Hag flipping Sea Hag, or missing $3P for Familiar.  Guessing correctly with WW or Mystic is nice, but not completely game-winning.

(edit for cost typo)

[Beyond Awesome]

I would actually argue that WW and Mystic are two of the least swingy cards in Dominion and actually reward good deck tracking more than anything.

[Donald X.]

As I've said previously, Spy-family cards are the worst for playtesting (and the +1 Action Spies would all be different if I made them today), and in general a card didn't have much of a chance of being published if I hated it, so I like most of the hated cards and even adore some of them.

These days vs. bots, it's sad to see Rebuild on the table because it's a reminder that I blew it on Rebuild, that serious players hate Rebuild. And that game vs. the bot will not be especially fun either. IRL it used to be no fun to play Pirate Ship games, because there would be someone who thought it was broken, and I'd have to beat them up with whatever else, only you know, the card wasn't supposed to never be playable, maybe the board would actually be good for them and they'd win and then say yeah, so broken, wow you sure blew it on Pirate Ship. So they were these tense games where in the end I beat them up because Pirate Ship is in fact bad.

I like the swingy cards, I like Swindler and Tournament a lot. I love Black Market. I don't adore Possession but it doesn't bother me either, I've gotten some fun out of it. Goons and Masquerade and King's Court are good times. I like Jack. I love Peddler, my favorite card in Prosperity. I like Governor fine, Jester is great. Philosopher's Stone has never been an issue for me in person, though it was a mistake to have it in Alchemy, since lots of people find it to be too slow (and that's an issue with the set overall). I love Smugglers. I like Remake and the Knights, love Procession, don't really mind Familiar. I like Cultist, I find Soothsayer really unobjectionable; I don't mind Mountebank so much but it would be nice if it was less automatic. Wishing Well and Mystic are fun.

I am sympathetic towards people who don't like Torturer and Minion; in later years I sometimes ended up having a +3 Cards attack because you need to do something simple to go with the attack part, but it's better when good attacks don't also draw your deck. In person I don't look at my hand in Minion games until my turn, that cut out a lot of the uh pain. I like the actual decks fine, I like doing cute things with Minion. I am sympathetic on the IGG front; I would like to see how IGG plays as a Silver for $6 that gives out Curses when you gain it. It doesn't sink games for me and sometimes does tricks, but sometimes you are just spending the game buying IGGs and VP, ho hum.

I agree that Council Room is annoying vs. the bots, especially in the adventures, where you see it a lot and are sometimes at a disadvantage. Maybe it just buys a Council Room and beats you. If it had to be clever it wouldn't have a chance. The interface for Urchin does make it annoying; I'm not sure what there is to do there.

[SCSN]

The interface for Urchin does make it annoying; I'm not sure what there is to do there.

"Do you want to trash Urchin?"

- Yes
- No
- No for the rest of the game

With the 3rd option having no effect on Possession turns.

[LastFootnote]

The Urchin interface could be made slightly better in the case of multiple Urchins in play. Right now if you have 2 or more Urchins in play when you play an Attack card, it gives you the option to trash each one, in sequence. Ideally it would just highlight them all at once and have a Done button or something. Fool's Gold used to have this same bad implementation in the early days of Hinterlands on Goko.

"No for the rest of the game" is obviously bad. What if your Mercenary gets swindled or you decide you want another one after all because you have too much junk?

[SCSN]

"No for the rest of the game" is obviously bad. What if your Mercenary gets swindled or you decide you want another one after all because you have too much junk?

In Dominion you're allowed to think ahead and refrain from chosing an option you might at some point regret.

In ~95% of Urchin games there comes a point where I'm certain that I don't want to gain a future Mercenary regardless of what happens, in the remaining ~5% I'd just chose "No" every time. As such I think this feature would make a really great addition.

[sudgy]

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.

[Awaclus]

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.

Well, at least it would be better than the current implementation.

[GeoLib]

The worst situation with the current implementation is if the attack triggering urchin is mercenary. You have to keep clicking "Done Trashing" and if you click it one to many times you make mercenary not trash and you've just played a dead card. A "Done" button seems like a great addition.

[Witherweaver]

The worst situation with the current implementation is if the attack triggering urchin is mercenary. You have to keep clicking "Done Trashing" and if you click it one to many times you make mercenary not trash and you've just played a dead card. A "Done" button seems like a great addition.

Plus, on the subject of interfaces, all these choice buttons are way to close (that is, on top of) the "Done Playing Actions" (or whatever it's called) button.  I've had quite a few games where I've accidentally skipped most of my action phase.  Lag can add to this problem.  And it's more likely to happen in the kind of deck where you have a lot of actions with a lot of different choices, which, of course, makes not skipping your Action phase more important.

[markusin]

Nice to hear your comments on this, Donald.

You mentioned that cards you didn't like weren't likely to make it into the game. This suggests the possibility that there are still a few official cards you don't really care for. Are there any cards that you didn't like all that much but were added because the other playtesters really liked them?

[AJD]

I like Rebuild. I mean, okay, it makes for boring strategy I guess, but it's fun to play—i.e., I think it's fun to dig for a Victory card and expand it.

I don't like Ghost Ship. It's just so painful to be on the losing end of a Ghost Ship engine.

[silverspawn]

I think a possible solution for the interface problem would be to implement hotkeys. Ideally, there is one key who basically says "don't do something unless not doing it hurts me". The idea here is that you can use him a lot, and if you click one too many times, it's not a big deal. If your opponent reveals a curse/estate to your spy, press that key. If curses are empty and you may reveal a bane card, press that key. If you play an urchin, press that key, but it would only work if you already have a mercenary. It wouldn't work to not-moat an attack that hurts you, it wouldn't work to not-reveal a tournament, and it wouldn't make you not discard a curse for mountebank.

Additionally, there could be two keys who just strictly say "do something" and "don't do something", which could also make you not discard a curse to a mountebank. So, if you're confident not to make mistakes, you can just ignore the safety key and use these two, if you aren't, use the safe key first, that's still faster than pressing buttons. There are probably some edge cases where a sytem doesn't recognize that a choice not to do something does hurt you, but in these cases you wouldn't want to press it anyway, so the only times where it actively hurts you is if you do a mistake and it happens to be one of these cases (e.g. reveal province and prevent your opponent from having a devastating reshuffle). That seems like a really minor drawback.

Oh, and there is absolutely no reason to choose the order of cards when you put them onto your deck with oracle. It's obvious that the only reason the card says "in any order" it is that it matters for opponents and the wording is easier this way.

[Donald X.]

You mentioned that cards you didn't like weren't likely to make it into the game. This suggests the possibility that there are still a few official cards you don't really care for. Are there any cards that you didn't like all that much but were added because the other playtesters really liked them?

Not really. I knew Lookout and Loan would be duds of their respective sets, for similar reasons, and there were players who liked them, so you could say that those opinions factored in. Envoy and Walled Village made it out as promos because I needed promos; they hadn't been good enough for sets (as opposed to Governor, specifically made as a promo, Stash, which might have made a later set, and Black Market, where wonkiness was the issue). Valerie was scared of Thief, and that's part of how Chancellor and Woodcutter are in the main set; Chancellor just would have been in Intrigue, but Woodcutter might not have existed otherwise.

[Donald X.]

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.

This sounds like an improvement. I don't think "no for the rest of the game" works. Hotkeys are uh too much for non-experts.

[brokoli]

I'm not a Rebuild hater. I know sometimes Rebuild can make the game boring, but I think it's interesting to have such a powerful card, because it's nice when you try something creative and find a better way to win the game rather than simple Rebuild rush. And even simple rebuild rush are fast games with still some decisions to do.

[Witherweaver]

My new least favorite card is Stonemason, because I hate seeing the Goko bots gain a dozen random cards every single turn.  And the only choices for speed are set it on fast and have the card-gaining graphic take forever, or set it on very fast and see nothing.

Seriously, the card gaining graphic is annoying.  Why does it need to pause so long?

[florrat]

My new least favorite card is Stonemason, because I hate seeing the Goko bots gain a dozen random cards every single turn.  And the only choices for speed are set it on fast and have the card-gaining graphic take forever, or set it on very fast and see nothing.

Seriously, the card gaining graphic is annoying.  Why does it need to pause so long?

A possible solution would be set it on very fast and look in the log what happened.

[Witherweaver]

My new least favorite card is Stonemason, because I hate seeing the Goko bots gain a dozen random cards every single turn.  And the only choices for speed are set it on fast and have the card-gaining graphic take forever, or set it on very fast and see nothing.

Seriously, the card gaining graphic is annoying.  Why does it need to pause so long?

A possible solution would be set it on very fast and look in the log what happened.

I mean yeah, you could do that.  Sometimes I do when I get annoyed.  But a better solution would just be to halve the time that the card stays up there in the middle of the screen.  In most cases, we know what the card is anyway (Cursers, Ruins, Spoils).  In other cases it's easy to recognize, and if you miss it you can check the log.

[Nik]

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

[WanderingWinder]

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

Because Mine is quite a bad card which doesn't have a huge impact. Rebuild is a pretty strong card which leads to a boring-yet-often-best strategy of "just buy and play rebuilds" (okay, it's a little more complicated), which saps a lot of the complexity out of the game.

[SirPeebles]

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

Wow, really?

Oh, I see.  You are probably thinking of how similar the mechanic is.  That Rebuild is just a Mine for Victory cards?  But people aren't upset about the mechanic.  Maybe a few people dislike digging, but that's not where the hate is coming from.

[clloxin]

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

Try playing a few games with rebuild and then you'll see.

[Asper]

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

The reason is simply this:
When you play on a board with Mine, there are a handful of things you can do. For example, on one and the same board, you could either go for Mine/Fools Gold, or Chancellor/Stash, or Workers Village/Poor House, or Transmute/Duke, or Big Money, or... I don't know which of these would be best, and the fun is you can find out yourself. On a board with Mine and no support for it, there still are a bunch of ways you can play.

This is not the case for boards with Rebuild. As Rebuild is extremely strong, skipping the card likely means losing. So if you want to win, instead of deciding which tactic to go for to do it, you just decide which support for Rebuild to get. Instead of deciding which cards to combine with each other, you decide which cards to combine with Rebuild. Instead of chosing a strategy, you chose a Rebuild strategy.

For this reason Rebuild makes the strategic choices on boards it appears on very narrow, leading to much less entertaining games - the fact that the card effect itself is boring adds to it, but isn't the main reason.

[c4master]

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

The reason is simply this:
When you play on a board with Mine, there are a handful of things you can do. For example, on one and the same board, you could either go for Mine/Fools Gold, or Chancellor/Stash, or Workers Village/Poor House, or Transmute/Duke, or Big Money, or... I don't know which of these would be best, and the fun is you can find out yourself. On a board with Mine and no support for it, there still are a bunch of ways you can play.

This is not the case for boards with Rebuild. As Rebuild is extremely strong, skipping the card likely means losing. So if you want to win, instead of deciding which tactic to go for to do it, you just decide which support for Rebuild to get. Instead of deciding which cards to combine with each other, you decide which cards to combine with Rebuild. Instead of chosing a strategy, you chose a Rebuild strategy.

For this reason Rebuild makes the strategic choices on boards it appears on very narrow, leading to much less entertaining games - the fact that the card effect itself is boring adds to it, but isn't the main reason.

Exactly.
How do you win a game? Well, most likely, buy a lot of high-cost victory point cards and then end the game (Province pile is empty or three-piling). The bad thing about Rebuild is, that it does both: gaining you a lot of high-cost VP cards AND ending the game due to Province rushing. So, you basically don't need much other strategies except Rebuild, if it is availible.

If you could, for example, start with two extra Provinces in your deck, you would still be likely to lose the game, because you cannot end it before your opponent catches up. You would just be too slow.
Rebuild isn't slowing you down at all. It just replaces VP cards in your deck by better ones.
That you don't necessarily have to be able to BUY a province, makes it even worse. It's sufficient to get 2 extra green cards (even Estates) and you'll win, because your Rebuild does all the job.

[Stealth Tomato]

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.

This sounds like an improvement. I don't think "no for the rest of the game" works. Hotkeys are uh too much for non-experts.

What if you took a page from online poker and added a checkbox for "don't play the reaction on Card X while this box is checked"? Then if you get into a situation where you might want the reaction, you can just uncheck the box.

[Donald X.]

What if you took a page from online poker and added a checkbox for "don't play the reaction on Card X while this box is checked"? Then if you get into a situation where you might want the reaction, you can just uncheck the box.

I don't know what you're copying from online poker. I am not seeing any benefits here so far. The box couldn't always be onscreen. Only experts would know how to call it up from offscreen.

The mod could add something to improve Urchin and people could see how they liked it. For the actual online version, it's going to be a pretty low priority for a long time. It's functioning correctly, it just wasn't a card designed with online play in mind. Oracle makes you order cards pointlessly because that was the best phrasing, but Catacombs at least goes that extra mile for online play.

[Stealth Tomato]

What if you took a page from online poker and added a checkbox for "don't play the reaction on Card X while this box is checked"? Then if you get into a situation where you might want the reaction, you can just uncheck the box.

I don't know what you're copying from online poker. I am not seeing any benefits here so far. The box couldn't always be onscreen. Only experts would know how to call it up from offscreen.

Essentially it's the ability to pre-move (online poker's implementation is the Check/Fold button and similar). I'm not sure why the box couldn't always be onscreen in a corner? But it's not particularly relevant--I don't imagine a checkbox system would ever be implemented, it was just an offhand thought. Besides, Urchin isn't a particularly bad offender--situations where you have to repeatedly decline to trash Urchin are just too rare compared to other interface annoyances.

Welcome back, by the way. It's good to see you around here discussing your game again... the artist is always the best source when you're looking for meaning in the art.

[Donald X.]

Essentially it's the ability to pre-move (online poker's implementation is the Check/Fold button and similar). I'm not sure why the box couldn't always be onscreen in a corner? But it's not particularly relevant--I don't imagine a checkbox system would ever be implemented, it was just an offhand thought. Besides, Urchin isn't a particularly bad offender--situations where you have to repeatedly decline to trash Urchin are just too rare compared to other interface annoyances.

I think wherever it was, I would find it more confusing than helpful. There are playmats on the screen for some cards, but the cards refer to them and anyway we can't not have them.

Welcome back, by the way. It's good to see you around here discussing your game again... the artist is always the best source when you're looking for meaning in the art.

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

[KingZog3]

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

And Harem is...?

[Donald X.]

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

And Harem is...?

The lesson of Harem is that if you stray from the path of righteousness, Maura Kalusky will draw you on a Dominion card.

[LibraryAdventurer]

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

And Harem is...?

My mom's favorite card.

[eHalcyon]

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

And Harem is...?

The lesson of Harem is that if you stray from the path of righteousness, Maura Kalusky will draw you on a Dominion card.

Which card features Ozle?

[SirPeebles]

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

And Harem is...?

The lesson of Harem is that if you stray from the path of righteousness, Maura Kalusky will draw you on a Dominion card.

Which card features Ozle?

I think he's the hooded man in the Tuvaluan Shanty Town.

[Awaclus]

I'm there for you. Chapel is about how unimportant material things are. Band of Misfits is about how who you pretend to be becomes who you are. Woodcutter is one of those canvases that just has a red stripe on it.

And Harem is...?

The lesson of Harem is that if you stray from the path of righteousness, Maura Kalusky will draw you on a Dominion card.

Which card features Ozle?

Moat?

[SirPeebles]

Should have been in spoiler tags, but I concede, Awaclus wins.

[Ozle]

Im still unsure of this....