Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

7726

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 01:33:22 pm »

You discard cards one at a time.

Not true.

You're right, you do discard simultaneously. But there's 2 big reason why Tunnel doesn't lose track. First of all, lose track ONLY applies to the ability to move a card somewhere else. If you need to look at a card to figure out the cost, or types, or anything like that, lose track simply doesn't apply there. It only matters if you are attempting to move the card.

Second of all, I'm pretty sure no card can lose track of itself... it only applies when card A tries to move card B after something else (either card B or C) has moved it.

7727

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 01:05:32 pm »

It just strikes me as weird that two successive snapshots of the game can look exactly the same to an outsider, but the legal moves are different because in one case the top card was covered for a bit and then undone, and in the other case it wasn't.

Sounds like your snapshots are too far apart. You should have a snapshot of the Inn on top, then something else on top, than an Inn on top.

Exactly. It seems that people are thinking that the only 2 times you ever look at the discard pile is right after you gain Inn, and right before you try to top-deck Inn. There's all that time in between where other things happen, and those things matter.

It's the same with the Border Village / Royal Seal question from here. Sure there were 2 separate times that the Border Village was seen on top, but loose track kicked in in between those 2 times because there was also a time that it wasn't on top.

In terms of using slight-of-hand to replace one Inn with another.... you CAN legally top-deck the Inn anyway, so I don't see a concern of someone illegally doing something that they could just as easily choose to legally do. I think the whole discussion of "is it the same Inn that's still on top of your discard" is moot, because if a person wants to top-deck the Inn, they can.

7728

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 11:44:15 am »

Inn / Royal Seal:

They trigger at the same time. Do them in either order.

Inn first: Shuffle any number of action cards from discard into deck. Let's say you don't include Inn. Then you want to put Inn on top of your deck with Royal Seal. Royal Seal will "lose track" of Inn if it gets covered up in the discard pile. That may or may not have happened; if it didn't happen, you can move it. The rulebook doesn't specify that having fun with your discard pile makes you lose track of Inn; only that covering it up does (or the other situations in which you lose track).

Royal Seal first: Put Inn on top of your deck. Then shuffle any number of action cards from discard to deck. Even if you pick zero, you still shuffle, so Inn won't stay on top.

Isotropic / Goko may not handle this correctly.

So the order of the discard pile matters? I was under the assumption that it didn't matter at all and could be rearranged when I "look through the discard pile'. But I look through the discard pile, pull one Inn out to shuffle it back in, put a second on the bottom and a third on the top, how do I know that the Inn on the top of the discard pile is the one that I just gained? Or does the watchtower 'regain track' of the Inn and doesn't actually care that it isn't the same Inn as before?

See the next few posts; I think he cleared this up. Watchtower/Royal Seal doesn't "regain track" of the Inn, it will never lose track unless you specifically rearrange your discard pile in such a way that you cover the Inn up. You don't just notice that Inn was on top of the pile when you started, and Inn is still on top when you finished... rather you always have your eye on that specific Inn that's on top of the pile, and if it is always visible, because it's always on top, then no track-losing takes place.

7729

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 11:18:36 am »

Hinterlands rulebook.

Inn: When you play this, you draw 2 cards, get +2 Actions, then discard 2 cards. The cards you discard can be ones that were in your hand and/or ones you just drew. You discard cards if able, even if you were unable to draw 2 cards. When you gain this, you look through your discard pile (something normally not allowed), and shuffle any number of Action cards from it into your deck (leaving the rest of your discard pile in your discard pile). You do not have to shuffle any Action cards into your deck. You can shuffle the Inn you just gained into your deck; it is an Action card in your discard pile. Cards with two types, one of which is Action, are Action cards. You must reveal the Action cards that you choose to shuffle into your deck. It does not matter what order you leave your discard pile in afterwards. This ability functions if you gain Inn due to buying it, or gain Inn some other way.

Well I could attempt to argue that you've said in the past that the card FAQ does not constitute official rules, and that rulings should not be based off of them, but rather only on what the actual card says.

But I won't, because really the only thing that matters from this discussion is that yes, you can in fact top-deck Inn if Royal Seal is in play.

7730

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 10:54:42 am »

Inn first: Shuffle any number of action cards from discard into deck. Let's say you don't include Inn. Then you want to put Inn on top of your deck with Royal Seal. Royal Seal will "lose track" of Inn if it gets covered up in the discard pile. That may or may not have happened; if it didn't happen, you can move it. The rulebook doesn't specify that having fun with your discard pile makes you lose track of Inn; only that covering it up does (or the other situations in which you lose track).

Isotropic / Goko may not handle this correctly.

Thinking more about this, I think you can make a good argument that you are NOT allowed to reorder your discard pile when you gain Inn. Simply because neither Inn, nor anything else in the rules, says that you are allowed to. Inn says to "look through your discard pile" and to "reveal any number of Action cards from it." Nothing about "reordering." And it's been clarified pretty strongly by you before that if the rules don't say you are allowed to do something related to the game, then you aren't allowed to do it (I.E. note-taking).

It seems to me that no card in the discard pile actually moves at all until the moment that you "shuffle them into your deck", because you've also clarified that "revealing" a card does not cause it to move (a revealed Secret Chamber is still in your hand). I think that because of this, Royal Seal cannot lose track of Inn during the "looking through your discard pile" process.

7731

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 10:41:36 am »

But if you do not shuffle the Inn into your deck, the royal seal can topdeck the Inn, right? Because it's still on the top of your discard pile.

No, because the act of fishing cards out of your discard pile causes the Inn to "move" I believe. Your discard can legally be rearranged at that time.

I think it's the same even if you choose to shuffle no cards in. And if you did royal seal's trigger before Inn's, you would put Inn on top of your deck, but then you are forced to shuffle your draw deck, even if you didn't take cards from your discard.

Ugh, can you imagine trying to explain in a casual IRL game that you arent allowed to just topdeck an Inn even when not shuffling Actions into your deck?

Inn / Royal Seal:

They trigger at the same time. Do them in either order.

Inn first: Shuffle any number of action cards from discard into deck. Let's say you don't include Inn. Then you want to put Inn on top of your deck with Royal Seal. Royal Seal will "lose track" of Inn if it gets covered up in the discard pile. That may or may not have happened; if it didn't happen, you can move it. The rulebook doesn't specify that having fun with your discard pile makes you lose track of Inn; only that covering it up does (or the other situations in which you lose track).

Royal Seal first: Put Inn on top of your deck. Then shuffle any number of action cards from discard to deck. Even if you pick zero, you still shuffle, so Inn won't stay on top.

Isotropic / Goko may not handle this correctly.

Wow, I was wrong! Thanks for the clarification. So you CAN topdeck Inn if you have Royal Seal in play. I would assume that any electronic implementation should never cause Inn to be covered up while digging through your discard pile, and therefore let you topdeck it. My only problem here is that it creates a different situation for real life play vs online play... in real life, while digging through your discard pile, you might cover up Inn, therefore disallowing the topdecking, but online that's not possible.

7732

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 28, 2013, 09:45:28 am »

But if you do not shuffle the Inn into your deck, the royal seal can topdeck the Inn, right? Because it's still on the top of your discard pile.

No, because the act of fishing cards out of your discard pile causes the Inn to "move" I believe. Your discard can legally be rearranged at that time.

I think it's the same even if you choose to shuffle no cards in. And if you did royal seal's trigger before Inn's, you would put Inn on top of your deck, but then you are forced to shuffle your draw deck, even if you didn't take cards from your discard.

Ugh, can you imagine trying to explain in a casual IRL game that you arent allowed to just topdeck an Inn even when not shuffling Actions into your deck?

I don't even think I can explain it to myself! While I'm about 90% sure that that's correct (has Donald specifically said it somewhere already?), the logic behind it requires a lot of thinking about for me.... I guess it's because Inn's ability is NOT optional, so you HAVE to "look through your discard pile." And the very act of looking through your discard pile causes Inn to "move" enough that Royal Seal loses track, because "looking through" can cause the order of things to change and such.

7733

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 27, 2013, 10:58:19 pm »

But if you do not shuffle the Inn into your deck, the royal seal can topdeck the Inn, right? Because it's still on the top of your discard pile.

No, because the act of fishing cards out of your discard pile causes the Inn to "move" I believe. Your discard can legally be rearranged at that time.

I think it's the same even if you choose to shuffle no cards in. And if you did royal seal's trigger before Inn's, you would put Inn on top of your deck, but then you are forced to shuffle your draw deck, even if you didn't take cards from your discard.

7734

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 27, 2013, 01:04:28 pm »

It doesn't say "gain the card from the trash" so it can't lose track of it.

This doesn't follow. Lose-track applies whenever a card tries to move a card that isn't where it's expected to be. ActionThief would expect Fortress to be in the trash, it wouldn't be there, so it wouldn't get gained.

why does ActionThief expect Fortress to be in the trash? All it knows is the card was Trashed. Its not like with Madman where the "return" implies you can't do it a second time.

"Trash X" is a synonym for "move X to the trash pile." So for any card that's been trashed, every card should expect it to be in the trash. I'm not sure what you mean by comparing it to Madman, but trashing a card does indeed imply that you can't do it a second time; just look at Throne Room-Treasure Map. You cannot activate it twice because you only get the gold "if you do trash 2 treasure maps" and the second time you play it (after it's been trashed), it doesn't get trashed again.

7735

Rules Questions / Re: Outpost in my Outpost

« on: February 26, 2013, 08:55:56 pm »

If I play an Outpost during my Outpost turn, do I still draw only 3 cards at Clean-up, even though I won't be taking an extra turn?

This could be relevant if it's a Minion game and I Schemed my three best cards.

I'll admit I'd never seen the edge case of "when would this be a good play" on this one.  Bravo.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg199011#msg199011

7736

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card

« on: February 26, 2013, 08:54:43 pm »

Reference to: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7099.msg199005#msg199005

7737

Rules Questions / Re: Thief can trash Spoils, but not gain it - right?

« on: February 26, 2013, 04:48:35 pm »

Thief is able to gain Spoils from the trash.

Correct. That bit in the rulebook is trying to make it clear that Workshop etc. can't gain Spoils. Thief specifically gains Treasures it trashes, and Spoils is a Treasure and Thief can trash it. Nothing about Spoils prevents Thief from getting one.

Should Thief say "you may gain any of the trashed cards from the trash"? It does seem to be the only card that gains from somewhere other than the supply without saying "gain from". If you had your Dominion time machine, of course.

7738

Dominion: Guilds Previews / Re: So. Guilds.

« on: February 25, 2013, 03:44:57 pm »

guilds just can't get here soon enough....or even a whiff of when we can partake of Donald's previews!

Since it isn't coming out at a particular show AFAIK, I won't know a precise release date until very close to it.

I have proofread the rulebook and card images for the last time, that is the extent of release date information that I have.

Remind me again what page 4 of the rulebook says about that one card... what was it called again?

7739

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: February 25, 2013, 01:56:32 pm »

The other prototypical non-stackable is Tactician.  The "if you discard a card this way" clause is there to prevent doubling the effect from Throne Room.  Of course, there is still that obscure edge case where Golem can cause multiple Tactician effects.

Madman and Treasure Map also.

7740

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: February 25, 2013, 11:09:19 am »

What are your thoughts/feelings when you see Celestial Chameleon emptying the supply in 4 turns? Are you as shocked and amazed as we are, or did you know/suspect that such a thing was possible?

7741

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 4 Turns

« on: February 25, 2013, 12:29:55 am »

I know this is genius, really, but why have I spotted a mistake (may not be a mistake, but I spotted it nonetheless): He puts Nc2-9 on the deck with Wt, and where does the tenth one go? Shouldn't it go on the deck too (because it's nomad camp?) or does he trash it w/ watchtower?

Probably trashes it. Doesnt serve any other purpose, does it?

He plays it later. Dunno if he needs that buy and 2 money or not. Either way, this is related to the same mistake I found, but I missed that it was Nomad Camp and therefore auto top decked.

7742

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 4 Turns

« on: February 24, 2013, 08:27:54 pm »

What order was the Black Market deck in to start with? And I'm guessing that it actually matters what order you put the unbought cards back on the bottom, but I should be able to work that out for myself.

As long as all cards bought are different there is always at least one (actually, at least 3 and I suspect way more than that) possible initial order and order in which to put unbought cards each time that makes it happen

Yes, after thinking about it a bit I'm sure that it's definitely possible to be able to buy the cards in any order you want if you assume perfect shuffle luck on the BM deck, but it's a bit of a puzzle in itself to try to figure out the initial order of the deck!

7743

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 4 Turns

« on: February 24, 2013, 08:26:22 pm »

I found an error while going through it all with the physical cards.



You put Kc 1-10 on deck, then draw 1-4. Then you put Nc 2-9 on deck... but when you Kc-Council Room, you draw the rest of the King's Courts without drawing the Nomad Camps. Also, you say to top-deck Bridge along with Sir Martin and Squire (on top of the King's Courts and Nomad Camps), but it is not drawn when you play Kc-Council Room either; it's drawn later when you play Margrave.

I'm assuming that this is the sort of thing that you can somehow work around... I really hope so anyway! It seems likely that you can just not top-deck the Nomad Camps or the Bridge... you're really close to the reshuffle anyway, and if you do reshuffle, then you can get all the Nomad Camps and the Bridge on top anyway...

7744

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 4 Turns

« on: February 24, 2013, 07:31:28 pm »

What order was the Black Market deck in to start with? And I'm guessing that it actually matters what order you put the unbought cards back on the bottom, but I should be able to work that out for myself.

7745

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 4 Turns

« on: February 24, 2013, 06:24:40 pm »

I mostly feel like, man, CC could be pulling a huge hoax and the solution doesn't work and I wouldn't have a clue.

The ultimate respect-troll!

Actually my wife and I plan to sit down with all the real cards and go through the solution step-by-step soon, just to watch the magic unfold.

7746

Game Reports / Re: Cause and effect

« on: February 23, 2013, 10:55:44 am »

If you are Mafia1245, what's the best strategy to keep playing and win?

Already have your own KC-Rabble in hand, and draw your own Ambassador

Well KC, KC, Rabble. And he did have Ambassadors by that point, but I had been Abassadoring him for quite a while before he got one, so his deck was quite large.

7747

Rules Questions / Re: Market Square and on-trash effects

« on: February 23, 2013, 10:54:28 am »

If a Knight is trashed by this, trash this card.

I think the "this" doesn't refer to the Knights card, but the effect it has.

Right. The word "this" in 'If a Knight is trashed by this" is a pronoun standing in for "Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest." If this (that whole process that just happened) caused a Knight to be trashed, trash this card.

7748

Game Reports / Cause and effect

« on: February 22, 2013, 05:27:03 pm »

— Your turn 17 —
You draw a Curse, a Rabble, a King's Court, and 2 Coppers and get +1 action and +1 buy from your Tactician.
You play a Rabble.
... (You reshuffle.)
... You draw a Warehouse and 2 Coppers.
... Mafia1245 draws and reveals a King's Court, a Cartographer, and a Silver.
... Mafia1245 discards a King's Court, a Cartographer, and a Silver.
You play a Warehouse.
... You draw a Warehouse, a King's Court, and an Ambassador and get +1 action.
... You discard a Warehouse and 2 Coppers.
You play a King's Court.
... You play a King's Court.
... ... You play a Sea Hag.
... ... ... Mafia1245 draws and discards a Silver.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse on top of the deck.
... ... You play the Sea Hag again.
... ... ... Mafia1245 draws and discards a Curse.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse on top of the deck.
... ... You play the Sea Hag a third time.
... ... ... Mafia1245 draws and discards a Curse.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse on top of the deck.
... You play the King's Court again.
... ... You play an Ambassador.
... ... ... You reveal a Curse.
... ... ... You return 0 copies to the supply.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse.
... ... You play the Ambassador again.
... ... ... You reveal a Curse.
... ... ... You return it to the supply.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse.
... ... You play the Ambassador a third time.
... ... ... You reveal a Curse.
... ... ... You return 0 copies to the supply.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse.
... You play the King's Court a third time.
... ... You play an Ambassador.
... ... ... You reveal a Curse.
... ... ... You return it to the supply.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Curse.
... ... You play the Ambassador again.
... ... ... You reveal a Copper.
... ... ... You return it to the supply.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Copper.
... ... You play the Ambassador a third time.
... ... ... You reveal a Copper.
... ... ... You return 0 copies to the supply.
... ... ... Mafia1245 gains a Copper.
You play a Silver and a Copper.
You buy a Silver.
(You reshuffle.)

— Mafia1245's turn 17 —
Mafia1245 resigns from the game (client disconnected or unresponsive).


I can't say I blame him.

7749

Dominion General Discussion / Re: MTG cards as Dominion cards

« on: February 22, 2013, 04:03:45 pm »

My game group found a way against the whole drive to keep spending more money to build better decks than each other. When we decided we wanted to play Magic, a couple guys who had a bunch of old cards lying around donated them to the group, and the rest of us threw in $10 which we used to go buy a bunch of packs.

Then we held a draft with all the cards, after which we acted like the cards we drafted were owned by us... we traded them, built decks with them, etc. All the decks were pretty crappy compared to tournament-level decks, but they were equal with each other.

Every once in a while, we would take all the cards, put them back in the pot, and start over again.

7750

Dominion General Discussion / Re: MTG cards as Dominion cards

« on: February 22, 2013, 12:26:01 pm »

Is it really that uncommon for someone like me to thoroughly enjoy Dominion but abhor MtG?


(Why: I don't see how it can be fun losing a game before your 2nd turn.)

I played BANG! the other day and was killed before I got to take my first turn.