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[Kirian]

So, Donald, I've seen some confusion over this rule somewhere... less public than this.  Can you clarify?

Let's say I buy Border Village with Royal Seal in play.  I activate BV first to gain a Lab, then I top-deck the Lab.  Can I then top-deck the Border Village?  Or was the (very temporary) cover-up by the Lab enough to lose track of it?

[Davio]

The cover-up was enough to lose track, I read this somewhere I'm sure of it.

[WanderingWinder]

The cover-up was enough to lose track, I read this somewhere I'm sure of it.

I was fairly sure that it was the other way.

[Davio]

The cover-up was enough to lose track, I read this somewhere I'm sure of it.

I was fairly sure that it was the other way.

In that case I'm afraid my memory is failing me.

[WanderingWinder]

The cover-up was enough to lose track, I read this somewhere I'm sure of it.

I was fairly sure that it was the other way.

In that case I'm afraid my memory is failing me.

Mine could be.

[Davio]

Anyway, I was right on both counts. 

Here's his post regarding this issue: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6646.msg184330#msg184330

Funny thing is that before Dark Ages was published the ruling was a bit different because the lost-track rule hadn't been officially printed yet. At least that's what I understand from that topic.

[WanderingWinder]

See, this doesn't make sense to me, because the lose-track rule says if the card isn't where the other card expect it to be, but I don't see how border village isn't where it's expected to be. On the other hand, 'being gained' seems awfully amorphous to me, so I don't actually see what the heck the rules mean, ergo if Donald says you can't, then I believe him.

On the other hand, I'm also confused about what exactly he's saying about the whole circumstance below. The Border Village goes to the discard pile BEFORE you make the choice of whether to activate the RS or the BV gain effect first?

Also, if you choose to resolve RS first, BV goes on top of your deck, and then you... can't(?) gain a Lab off of that?

[Kirian]

OK, yes, look, I know he's already answered it.  But that post is in a private forum that can't be accessed by thing like the Wiki or the "All-Encompassing FAQ" that someone put together.  Onigame noted that problem in the thread.  I'm trying to rectify it.

[Donald X.]

On the other hand, I'm also confused about what exactly he's saying about the whole circumstance below. The Border Village goes to the discard pile BEFORE you make the choice of whether to activate the RS or the BV gain effect first?

"When-gain" happens directly *after* gaining (though it can be delayed by resolving other when-gain abilities first).

[WanderingWinder]

On the other hand, I'm also confused about what exactly he's saying about the whole circumstance below. The Border Village goes to the discard pile BEFORE you make the choice of whether to activate the RS or the BV gain effect first?

"When-gain" happens directly *after* gaining (though it can be delayed by resolving other when-gain abilities first).

Sure, that's not confusing me; it's that gaining necessarily means the thing has to visit a discard pile and then possibly leave that seems weird to me. I guess my mind is stuck on something like bureaucrat, where it never visits the discard (right?), but goes straight on the deck, though I suppose there is a subtle difference there? I mean, this makes sense, it just surprised me.
That actually clarifies the original requested ruling here though - BV goes into discard, then lab goes into discard, then it can be pulled off by royal seal, but now because it stopped being the top of the discard pile for a second, even though it is now again, BV can't be pointed to as being 'when gained' by RS anymore, and so that effect fizzles.
Which would imply that... I'm still not sure on the top-deck-BV THEN gain another card thing. I am guessing you can't, but it doesn't seem entirely clear.

[Donald X.]

Sure, that's not confusing me; it's that gaining necessarily means the thing has to visit a discard pile and then possibly leave that seems weird to me. I guess my mind is stuck on something like bureaucrat, where it never visits the discard (right?), but goes straight on the deck, though I suppose there is a subtle difference there? I mean, this makes sense, it just surprised me.

It is in the discard pile when when-gain things happen. This is a consequence of when-gain triggering after gaining. Gaining put it in your discard pile. So that's where it is.

"When you pass go, collect $200." Has the thimble already moved when you collect the $200? "When x" happens after x in almost all games.

Bureaucrat's Silver doesn't visit the discard pile. There has to be some way to indicate that you gain a card to a certain location, without making the card texts incomprehensible. "Put it on top of your deck rather than into your discard pile" is too much. No-one ever puts the Silver into their discard pile first, and the Dark Ages rulebook covers this immediately after "lose track," for people who suddenly wonder about it.

That actually clarifies the original requested ruling here though - BV goes into discard, then lab goes into discard, then it can be pulled off by royal seal, but now because it stopped being the top of the discard pile for a second, even though it is now again, BV can't be pointed to as being 'when gained' by RS anymore, and so that effect fizzles.
Which would imply that... I'm still not sure on the top-deck-BV THEN gain another card thing. I am guessing you can't, but it doesn't seem entirely clear.

"Lose track" *only* stops cards from being moved. Once Border Village triggers, it will happen, there is just ordering to deal with. Border Village can end up trashed or whatever and that doesn't matter.

[WanderingWinder]

That all makes sense. Thank you.

[Ozle]

You people need to come round and explain these things to my friends when we play!

Usually they just say "Yeah whatever" when I sit there and explain for 5 minutes the wierd edge case that come up in our game, my justification being "Well, on the internet Donald and Wandering said this, counting out what Jonts raised about this, and so it was decided that this happens"

I just get sympathetic nods!

[GigaKnight]

Donald, I read this thread and it all makes sense, given the rules that have been stated.

I'm just curious about the reasoning that covering a card in the discard pile loses track of it.  Is there a specific interaction this simplifies?  I'm not suggesting it should be any other way, but I could also understand if a coarse "it's in the discard" was all the cards cared about for tracking.

[Donald X.]

Donald, I read this thread and it all makes sense, given the rules that have been stated.

I'm just curious about the reasoning that covering a card in the discard pile loses track of it.  Is there a specific interaction this simplifies?  I'm not suggesting it should be any other way, but I could also understand if a coarse "it's in the discard" was all the cards cared about for tracking.

The rules don't let you look through your discard pile without permission. So uh that's something. Otherwise it's playing it safe.

[onigame]

That actually clarifies the original requested ruling here though - BV goes into discard, then lab goes into discard, then it can be pulled off by royal seal, but now because it stopped being the top of the discard pile for a second, even though it is now again, BV can't be pointed to as being 'when gained' by RS anymore, and so that effect fizzles.
Which would imply that... I'm still not sure on the top-deck-BV THEN gain another card thing. I am guessing you can't, but it doesn't seem entirely clear.

"Lose track" *only* stops cards from being moved. Once Border Village triggers, it will happen, there is just ordering to deal with. Border Village can end up trashed or whatever and that doesn't matter.

Just to make this more explicit for FAQ-readers coming to this thread:

1.  You buy a Border Village; Royal Seal is in play.  You intend to use BV's ability on a Lab, and you intend to top-deck as much as you can.
2.  Assuming that no "When Buy" effects are relevant, the first thing that happens is the Gain -- you get BV on top of your discard.
3.  Two things happen: (BV) "Gain a Lab"; (RS) "Put BV on top of deck".  You can choose which happens first.
4.  You decide to do (RS) first.  Royal Seal looks for the BV on top of your discard pile; it's still there and hasn't been covered up.  (RS) succeeds and the BV moves to the top of your deck.
5.  Then (BV) happens.  You gain a Lab, it goes on top of your discard.
6.  Royal Seal now triggers on the Lab gain, and so the Lab moves from your discard to the top of your deck.
7.  Net result:  The top card of your deck is a Lab.  The card underneath it is a Border Village.

Say you did the other choice in step 3.  Then we get:

1.  You buy a Border Village; Royal Seal is in play.  You intend to use BV's ability on a Lab, and you intend to top-deck as much as you can.
2.  Assuming that no "When Buy" effects are relevant, the first thing that happens is the Gain -- you get BV on top of your discard.
3.  Two things happen: (BV) "Gain a Lab"; (RS) "Put BV on top of deck".  You can choose which happens first.
4.  You decide to do (BV) first.  You gain a Lab, it goes on top of your discard.  This covers up the Border Village, making everything (except for BV) lose track of it.
5.  Royal Seal triggers on the Lab gain, and so the Lab moves from your discard to the top of your deck.
6.  Now the (RS) thing from step 3 happens.  Royal Seal looks for the BV on top of your discard pile; but since it was covered up, Royal Seal can't find the BV even though now it is back on top of your discard pile.  (RS) fails and nothing is moved.
7.  Net result:  The top card of your deck is a Lab.  The top card of your discard is a Border Village.

[ftl]

Oh man. That ends up really confusing.

6.  Now the (RS) thing from step 3 happens.  Royal Seal looks for the BV on top of your discard pile; but since it was covered up, Royal Seal can't find the BV even though now it is back on top of your discard pile.  (RS) fails and nothing is moved.

"Royal seal looks for BV on top of the discard, and even though the BV is on top of the discard the RS can't find it."

[WanderingWinder]

That actually clarifies the original requested ruling here though - BV goes into discard, then lab goes into discard, then it can be pulled off by royal seal, but now because it stopped being the top of the discard pile for a second, even though it is now again, BV can't be pointed to as being 'when gained' by RS anymore, and so that effect fizzles.
Which would imply that... I'm still not sure on the top-deck-BV THEN gain another card thing. I am guessing you can't, but it doesn't seem entirely clear.

"Lose track" *only* stops cards from being moved. Once Border Village triggers, it will happen, there is just ordering to deal with. Border Village can end up trashed or whatever and that doesn't matter.

Just to make this more explicit for FAQ-readers coming to this thread:

1.  You buy a Border Village; Royal Seal is in play.  You intend to use BV's ability on a Lab, and you intend to top-deck as much as you can.
2.  Assuming that no "When Buy" effects are relevant, the first thing that happens is the Gain -- you get BV on top of your discard.
3.  Two things happen: (BV) "Gain a Lab"; (RS) "Put BV on top of deck".  You can choose which happens first.
4.  You decide to do (RS) first.  Royal Seal looks for the BV on top of your discard pile; it's still there and hasn't been covered up.  (RS) succeeds and the BV moves to the top of your deck.
5.  Then (BV) happens.  You gain a Lab, it goes on top of your discard.
6.  Royal Seal now triggers on the Lab gain, and so the Lab moves from your discard to the top of your deck.
7.  Net result:  The top card of your deck is a Lab.  The card underneath it is a Border Village.

Say you did the other choice in step 3.  Then we get:

1.  You buy a Border Village; Royal Seal is in play.  You intend to use BV's ability on a Lab, and you intend to top-deck as much as you can.
2.  Assuming that no "When Buy" effects are relevant, the first thing that happens is the Gain -- you get BV on top of your discard.
3.  Two things happen: (BV) "Gain a Lab"; (RS) "Put BV on top of deck".  You can choose which happens first.
4.  You decide to do (BV) first.  You gain a Lab, it goes on top of your discard.  This covers up the Border Village, making everything (except for BV) lose track of it.
5.  Royal Seal triggers on the Lab gain, and so the Lab moves from your discard to the top of your deck.
6.  Now the (RS) thing from step 3 happens.  Royal Seal looks for the BV on top of your discard pile; but since it was covered up, Royal Seal can't find the BV even though now it is back on top of your discard pile.  (RS) fails and nothing is moved.
7.  Net result:  The top card of your deck is a Lab.  The top card of your discard is a Border Village.

In striving for pure accuracy, you would want to point out that you don't have to choose to use royal seal's effect in any situation. I'm not sure when the use-it or not-use-it choice is made; there is a plausible argument that the effect is 'you may move it', which would mean that you would choose in step 4 and 6 (in either case, step 6 is going to trigger a choice of whether to top-deck the thing or not) on the first ordering, or step 5 with the second ordering (again, you don't have to move the Lab to the top of your deck); there is also a plausible argument that 'you may' choose to have the top-deck effect, in which case you would have to choose whether or not to use it prior to the ordering choice mentioned in step 3; in this case as well, you have a separate choice of whether to activate it again or not for the lab.
I can't think of a situation where this distinction matters, but the ability to not top-deck one, the other, or both cards is sometimes important.

[Davio]

Thing is, this specific case can only be screwed up with a very clunky UI.

If you are playing in real life and buy a BV with RS in play and want to gain a Lab with it, putting both on deck, I'm just going to let you do it. I'm not going to ask you: Wait a second! Which are you going to resolve first?!?! And if you pick the wrong order, I'm not going to say: "Uh, uh uh, you can't put BV on your deck!" To which you would reply "But wait, it's right there on top of my discard pile!" "Doesn't matter, you're out of luck, bro"

A lot of these edge cases become very peculiar when you're playing on the computer, but are not so important in real life. I mean, if you trust each other and know that you can go from a specific start situation (buy BV) to a specific end situation (BV and Lab on top) it doesn't matter much how this actually happens.

I mean, if you play in real life and have Watchtower in hand with which you want to topdeck, the gained card won't ever physically touch the discard pile. At least I don't do it that way. Same with Bureaucrat, I don't go: "Okay, I gain a Silver, let's put it in the discard first and see what the card says about it...wait I have to put it on top!"

[Drab Emordnilap]

I mean, if you trust each other and know that you can go from a specific start situation (buy BV) to a specific end situation (BV and Lab on top) it doesn't matter much how this actually happens.

But it matters a little bit, because you can't put the Border Village on top of the $5; the $5 will always go to the top of your deck after the Border Village does.


It's my buy phase, and I have a Royal Seal and some other money in play. I buy a Border Village, gaining a $5, and topdeck them. The Border Village has to go on top first, then the $5. I buy a Farmland, trashing a Rats and drawing a card, which is my $5, and not my Border Village, so I can't trash it for a Province.

[Kirian]

I mean, if you trust each other and know that you can go from a specific start situation (buy BV) to a specific end situation (BV and Lab on top) it doesn't matter much how this actually happens.

But it matters a little bit, because you can't put the Border Village on top of the $5; the $5 will always go to the top of your deck after the Border Village does.


It's my buy phase, and I have a Royal Seal and some other money in play. I buy a Border Village, gaining a $5, and topdeck them. The Border Village has to go on top first, then the $5. I buy a Farmland, trashing a Rats and drawing a card, which is my $5, and not my Border Village, so I can't trash it for a Province.

Yep.  Probably no one cares in friendly play, but it could matter in a tournament.

[SirPeebles]

I mean, if you trust each other and know that you can go from a specific start situation (buy BV) to a specific end situation (BV and Lab on top) it doesn't matter much how this actually happens.

But it matters a little bit, because you can't put the Border Village on top of the $5; the $5 will always go to the top of your deck after the Border Village does.


It's my buy phase, and I have a Royal Seal and some other money in play. I buy a Border Village, gaining a $5, and topdeck them. The Border Village has to go on top first, then the $5. I buy a Farmland, trashing a Rats and drawing a card, which is my $5, and not my Border Village, so I can't trash it for a Province.

Yep.  Probably no one cares in friendly play, but it could matter in a tournament.

If you want your Border Village on top, then you had better gain the Nomad Camp rather than the Woodcutter.  See?  Nomad Camp is the better choice when you want a "Woodcutter", but don't want it to be on top.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Yep.  Probably no one cares in friendly play, but it could matter in a tournament.

I would care the same amount as I would care about you putting those two cards back from my Oracle in the correct order. Does that make me unfriendly? It's how the game works. 

[GendoIkari]

Yep.  Probably no one cares in friendly play, but it could matter in a tournament.

I would care the same amount as I would care about you putting those two cards back from my Oracle in the correct order. Does that make me unfriendly? It's how the game works. 

You get to choose the order of the cards you put back when your opponent plays Oracle...

[GendoIkari]

I mean, if you trust each other and know that you can go from a specific start situation (buy BV) to a specific end situation (BV and Lab on top) it doesn't matter much how this actually happens.

But it matters a little bit, because you can't put the Border Village on top of the $5; the $5 will always go to the top of your deck after the Border Village does.


It's my buy phase, and I have a Royal Seal and some other money in play. I buy a Border Village, gaining a $5, and topdeck them. The Border Village has to go on top first, then the $5. I buy a Farmland, trashing a Rats and drawing a card, which is my $5, and not my Border Village, so I can't trash it for a Province.

To clarify here, you would need enough money for yet another Farmland after you bought one and trashed the Rats. So at least $18 and 3 buys.