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Messages - Triumph44

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51
Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Alchemy Cards: Golem
« on: April 28, 2016, 10:41:45 am »
I've seen a bot crush me with Golems + 2 Torturers where those are the only actions he buys (I think were I to try this deck, I might buy 3 Torturers).   I do think that deck can work with no trashers.  I think Golem+Goons is much more unwieldy - not only do you only get your opponent down to 3 cards, but presumably you are buying 3 things every time you Golem+Goons.  Your deck is going to get very thin right away, and without the reshuffle mechanism that Golem + 3 Torturers has (if one of the 2 Torturers Golem fishes for is one of the final 6 cards in the deck, I'm going to trigger a reshuffle where all my other Golems that were passed over are in the new deck), it's going to get very difficult to consistently Golem for the Goons. 

Like everyone said, the key to Golem is having powerful actions - my regular opponent loves Golem but will often buy weak actions that make it hard to take full advantage of what Golem offers.


52
Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Council Room
« on: April 05, 2016, 12:43:19 am »
When I only had Base on Goko, it's amazing how many times the Bots thrashed me with Council Room + Big Money and how I refused to learn from it - every time I'd try something else and it would go Council Room+BM and crush.  I think unless there are some strong attacks - Ambassador, Cultist, etc. - Council Room+BM is real hard to beat.  In engines, giving the opponent a card can get dangerous when you start giving them 3 or 4 cards a turn, though there's nothing quite like playing a bunch of Council Rooms and then Ghost Ship/Militia/Goons.

53
Feels like Quest could be really great in slogs - I see why it's rated so low, but it feels better than Raid, Trade, or Plan (altho in the case of Raid I forget how the -1 Card token works and am too lazy to look it up.)

54
I will say that Lost Arts seems insane from the one game of Adventures I played with it - I managed to play it on the Ranger supply pile and then got a Treasure Trove and gg.  I could very easily see ranking it above King's Court; it makes any terminal draw card ridiculously powerful, esp draw + attack like Torturer or Rabble.  It mitigates a village split in a game with a lot of excellent terminals.  And then there's all the other crazy stuff it makes possible. 

55
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Payment models
« on: June 15, 2015, 06:10:00 pm »
I think they should most certainly keep the base game completely free. People tend to lose interest in stuff as soon as they have to pay for it, even if it's just $1/month or something. Instead, they could have ads at least for the base-only players, but possibly for everyone else as well — not during the game because that would be annoying, but people wouldn't mind them too much in the lobby and while the game is loading. I mean, we would complain for sure, but it wouldn't stop anyone from playing. And the game does seem to have a lot of non-paying players, so that would be a pretty good way of profiting from them.

Yeah you need a way to tap into the player base that doesn't pay anything.  I own all the sets (physical and online) but it should be pretty easy to get a game with someone who owns all the sets if you yourself don't.  Maybe add a feature that you can only be matched with players owning the same sets you do or something...so if you don't buy in, you're literally just playing base only games.

I think Goko was right to allow people to match up with players who don't own all the sets, because A:  this is how real life works, you don't have to own a copy of Dominion: Intrigue to play it with your friend, he or she could own it and B:  if you don't own all the sets online, you are probably going to be at a large disadvantage against people who do.  One of the few things I like about the Beta is the presence of matchups based on sets owned.  I know people would name their room like Seaside + Base or whatever back on Goko, but I think it helps the game long-term to be able to play with people who are both near your skill level in terms of rating and in terms of cards known.

56
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Payment models
« on: June 15, 2015, 02:39:42 pm »
Addressing 2 points made above: 

A:  I think the ideal model is where you have to buy the expansions (for the prices they were at before the Beta or possibly lower than that) and also have to pay a nominal yearly fee once you reach a certain games played threshold.  This keeps the active players funding the site.

B:  I imagine Blizzard already has servers devoted to their MMOs and can just use that infrastructure for StarCraft, so there's less cost associated with running servers for SC because they already have to run them for other stuff.  StarCraft is like Dominion in that it's a game that has taken on a very competitive life of its own, and to take that away for a cash grab would be sort of silly.  The thing is that Blizzard makes other games that they can promote this way through StarCraft.  I don't think MakingFun does.

57
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Payment models
« on: June 15, 2015, 12:53:48 am »
I think the problem with any kind of subscription model is that it's very hard to avoid an expectation of new content.
The issue is that there comes a point at which you have paid more than you would have paid if there was instead a single up-front cost.

Okay, if they charge only $1/month you don't reach that point for about 4 years (based on current prices).
However, if the current model isn't sustainable, charging nothing up front and only $1/month is not going to save it.

So, instead I'm paying, say, $3 a month to play Dominion online.
In a little over a year I have paid more than I would have paid if I had just bought all the cards up front.
Except I don't get anything more for my money because Donald X. isn't spending his day coming up with new cards.

At what point do you think I become angry that I have to make a recurring payment just to keep playing a game that has no new content on any foreseeable horizon?
Is it after I have paid $50?
$100?
When do I decide that my money is better spent on new games or on a subscription game that actually brings out new content on a regular basis?

Honestly, the best way to improve revenue is to get the game working and then get it up on Steam for $20.

You get the ability to play the game online.  If you don't play it, then go ahead and cancel, because again, under my theoretical model, you're still permitted to play X number of games over Y period of time without paying.  I'm also not saying they should abandon the present model of paying for expansions, as I think this is also a fine idea (I think I really enjoyed ramping up the sets slowly, purchasing only the ones I or friends had purchased IRL, until we got them all - the notion of paying a lump sum and getting 8-9 expansions out of the gate just seems nuts to me).  Regardless, they should just leave the prices for those as is (or make it lower) and add this in as well.  Doubling the prices for the game seems like a bad idea, but who knows, lots of things I think are bad ideas work.

I have to confess I don't really know much about the economics of online games or things of this nature, but it just doesn't seem to make sense that the only time you pay is when you pay for the sets and then that's it, for the rest of your life, even though they're running servers and sussing out bugs and whatnot.  Your post implies, given the model you've laid out, that this is like any other game, you play it for a while, and then you stop, probably, and you move on to something else.  I just don't think of this game that way.

(I must note that this may just be Stockholm Syndrome based on the unbearably awful Goko site, that I pray that my captors fare well)

58
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Payment models
« on: June 15, 2015, 12:15:37 am »
MF wants to attract more casual players and I don't see a subscription-based model being friendly to that.

Sure it is.  What if you have to pay after playing 100 games per 6 months, or something like that?   Leaves plenty of room for weekend players to get in a game with friends (or strangers, or bots), but if you're going to play a lot, you're going to have to cough up some $.  The model MF has been running under only makes sense if you think Dominion is a fad and people will get bored and the game will die off.  I don't think it's a fad - I think it's a half-step below the Great Games (Chess, Poker, Go, etc.) in terms of perceived simplicity but actual complexity, with enough variation to make gameplay enjoyable even after several thousand games.  I won't always be as passionate about the game as I am now, and I've had some lulls in my passion since finding it in early 2013, but it's a game I anticipate playing for the rest of my life.  I don't expect I'll get much resistance to that idea around here.  They should be making a site that is both welcoming to the new gamer while recognizing that this game has a loyal fanbase willing to pay for a site that honors the game.     

59
What's most confusing is that Goko looked to be growing, even though until Adventures came out the last expansion happened in 2013.  It seemed like more people were on and playing more - at peak times the first 6 rooms were full.  And that's despite the fact that the Goko interface is clunky and dumb (the gameplay on Goko was terrific and I have very few complaints about it, everything else about the site was, IME, awful).  Now they have to silly up the graphics to pretend like we're playing Hearthstone and make you install something on your computer when people are moving away from computers.  I don't get the economic model of the online game either - if you buy all the expansions, then the site has wrung every last dollar from you, and now what incentive do they have to provide a good service? There should be a nominal yearly fee for people who play over 100 games or something like that.

Anyway I understand it's a Beta, but good god, what a disaster this is so far.

The second bolded part answers the first bolded part... they probably weren't making more money even though there were more people playing.  A lot of the same users who bought years ago are still playing now.

I personally think MF is between a rock and a hard place on this.  The business model Goko started is clearly unsustainable without the microtransactions they first pushed for with Zaps etc, but now to be fair to us older users MF can't really change the model and fix it.  Their only way to profit is to get a ton of people to buy sets now and increase the price. (which they've apparently done?)

Their business model doesn't work, so now they are just going to double down on it?  It makes zero sense.  Their way to sustain themselves is to charge people who often use the site, people like me who are willing to pay.  I understand that microtransactions have worked on other games, but this is a card game that exists independent of the online site.  I just don't see how raising prices on sets will make the site profitable long-term; if there are people who've used the site for a while but who haven't bought expansions, they're now less likely to buy them, and is there really going to be a large influx of new players?  I guess that's the idea by building it like Hearthstone, but it doesn't seem like a good plan - it's almost like a pyramid scheme, where new users pay for the old ones.  Doesn't usually work out well.

60
Dominion General Discussion / Re: About kingmaking
« on: June 13, 2015, 05:01:36 pm »
I might've missed someone saying this upthread and this discussion seems to have largely run its course, but to me if you are in 3rd with no hope of winning, it's your prerogative to end the game as quickly as possible.  On the other hand, if it was close between the other two players, I'd consider it pretty unsporting if the 3rd player ran out a non-victory pile simply to end the game.  But basically if the 3rd player can end the game by greening, he or she should.  Been a while since I played 3p Dominion but this was generally how we played.

61
When I played the beta yesterday morning, it seemed... okay. It was a fair bit slower than Salvager, but I never found the deck size bug, the high resolution interface was a big improvement, and I could largely play Dominion in the same manner I could before. Sidebar would be nice, but I could make do. I was beginning to think the complaints were overstated. I was upset with how much they seemed to be rushing to close the old Dominion app, but if they fixed things then whatever I guess.

Then I tried to play again yesterday evening, and every move had a good 10-15 seconds of delay between the click and the action. I know this wasn't just me either; others playing at the same time, against bots no less, had the same problem. And now this morning I can't even complete a log in sequence (it doesn't say I can't log in, it just doesn't DO anything when I hit the button except crash sometimes).

On top of this, storing a password in plain text anywhere is completely indefensible. It's not, there's no argument here. That's appallingly insecure. I don't have anything to add, honestly - it's that simple.

I wanted to give them so much slack. It's a beta, things aren't going to work right for awhile at all. I really wanted to be patient and give them time to get everything right... but with the password thing, with how the closed beta testers were treated, I just don't really know what to think anymore. The thing that gets me is that we had a very simple and robust simulator in Isotropic years ago. We had Goko, with all of its flaws, but they had gotten it to a reasonably stable place. And now somehow we're worse off now than we were years ago. I really like this game a lot. I'm putting up with all of this shit because I'm obsessed and I love Dominion and all that. But it's really starting to not look so worth it anymore. Why is this so hard?

What's most confusing is that Goko looked to be growing, even though until Adventures came out the last expansion happened in 2013.  It seemed like more people were on and playing more - at peak times the first 6 rooms were full.  And that's despite the fact that the Goko interface is clunky and dumb (the gameplay on Goko was terrific and I have very few complaints about it, everything else about the site was, IME, awful).  Now they have to silly up the graphics to pretend like we're playing Hearthstone and make you install something on your computer when people are moving away from computers.  I don't get the economic model of the online game either - if you buy all the expansions, then the site has wrung every last dollar from you, and now what incentive do they have to provide a good service?  There should be a nominal yearly fee for people who play over 100 games or something like that.

Anyway I understand it's a Beta, but good god, what a disaster this is so far.

62
I don't know if you've seen this data.  Most of the best openings are 5/2.

http://councilroom.com/openings

I don't think I ever aggregated 5/2 vs 4/3 across all boards though.

Yeah, that's what I think and that's why we do this - that the best 5/2 opens are better than the best 4/3 opens, but that the worst 5/2 opens are worse than the worst 4/3 opens (because opening Silver Silver is always a possibility and is rarely awful [please don't give me cases where opening Silver Silver is clearly terrible, I'm aware there are plenty of boards where that is true, I'm saying when a skilled opponent opens Silver Silver he has a reason for doing so]).  This misses Dark Ages and Guilds which besides Cultist I don't think there's really any other overpowered 5 type opening in either set (and Baker mitigates the 5/2 problem - we play through on Baker boards where P1 gets 5/2)

63
Like I said, I think 5/2 has gotten less powerful, but I was just wondering if someone had the numbers, it seems not.  Obviously we could go back and forth debating boards where it's advantageous and disadvantageous. 

64
Hmm, not quite the 'You're a genius, that's a brilliant idea' reception I expected.

Sometimes 5/2 is much better than 4/3. Sometimes it is much worse. Sometimes it's about the same, and makes for a very interesting game with competing strategies. Sure, on boards where one person opens Mint/Fool's Gold and the other can't, it's probably not worth playing, but you're missing out on some interesting games by skipping the different opens.

If the 5/2 is really that much better than the 4/3, I don't think first-turn advantage is going to increase its power that much more in most cases. I would imagine P2's winrate should be pretty close to P1's given the favorable split.

Keep in mind that we're not default 'skipping the different opens' - if Player 2 gets 5/2, he keeps it.

Earlier this month, there was a feature request for the Dominion Salvager extension to automatically have players play dead turns until they have identical hands (if all players are mutually agreed, of course).  You can see the suggestion here.  What follows is a lengthy (and sometimes heated) discussion about the merits of forcing identical starting hands.  If you wish, you can jump to Donald X's response here.

Opinions are varied, but I think it's safe to say that the opening split is not the be all end all.  There is some luck there, but there is luck all throughout the game.  Having a better split at the start does not tilt the odds that much, and note that 5/2 is not always favourable anyway.

Ah, okay, excellent, thanks for the link.  I haven't read the non-Vaccarino posts yet, but I will.  No, obviously there is luck throughout the game, but it can be particularly disspiriting when someone opens Mountebank or Witch on a no-trash board.  It's a particularly visible element of chance (and fwiw, I agree with jaybeez that 2nd reshuffle luck may be a bigger factor but obviously that can't be controlled in any way).  Having matching hands as a default is terrible and I agree with Mr. Vaccarino that people who play that way are monsters.  Okay, that's a bit harsh, but by no means would I want to have matching hands as a default.

I think that averaged over all boards, if P1 is equal to or higher in skill than P2, P2's winrate would actually be higher with a 4/3 split than with a 5/2 if P1 has 5/2, and vice versa.

I do think that 5/2 is a bit (but not a lot) better on average, but I expect this difference to be quite small and as P2 worth giving up on in exchange for the large increase in variance, which clearly benefits him and him alone.

So, OP, I think what you're doing has the opposite effect of what you intend.

Entirely possible that I don't have enough experience with all sets and am making a conclusion based on too many games where I've not played all sets (I estimate I've played 500 All Sets games out of the 2300 or so Dominion games I've played).  Alchemy-heavy boards become more difficult with most 5/2 splits, e.g.  It's just the kind of thing I wish we had 10,000 game results on.

Also now I'm not sure I follow your point, and am not sure you followed mine.  Just to clarify, if Player 1 gets a 5 2 split and Player 2 does not, we skip the first 4 turns and reshuffle.  Player 1 still gets to go first.  I guess you're saying that given one player has 5 2, the other player has a better winrate with 4 3 than with a 5 2 also - I could see being true, but don't see how it necessarily negates my idea.

65
This has probably been asked/answered somewhere but it's a tricky thing to search for - I'm curious if anyone has looked at winrates where the player who goes first (hereafter Player A) gets a 5 2 split and Player B does not.  I play most of my Dominion with one other player on Goko, and we've agreed that when Player A has a 5 2 split and Player B does not, we reshuffle.  I recognize this is 'part of the game' and that were I playing against a worse player, I'd want to keep 5 2 splits in the game to increase variance, but for the most part it makes for a worse game among players of intermediate skill and above.  It took years for Magic: The Gathering to realize that the advantage inherent in going first meant that that player should not draw a card on his or her first turn, and I suspect something like this is going on in Dominion as well.  I'd estimate that among equally skilled players, the winrate is around 70% for a Player A going first and getting 5 2 while his or her opponent has a 4 3.

I'd also be curious about winrates where Player B gets a 5 2 split and Player A does not.

66
Game Reports / Re: The most uninteresting board I ever played
« on: April 07, 2014, 04:15:38 pm »
Ok, I'll admit, it was more boring that uninteresting. Caravan was still the only mistake I've made. But so much worse than silver really ? I guess it depends on money density and deck-cycling.

I'm interested to know why you think Cache could be better than gold, late game. Actually, I hesitated a lot before going for Cache. I wasn't sure what it could add to my deck.

Money density, again.  Imagine a theoretical deck of 20 cards where 8 are curses and 12 are coppers, so each of your cards is worth 0.6 money.  You buy a Gold (hey, don't ask how, your opponent used Soothsayer on you), which brings your money density up to 15/21.  Or you buy a Cache, which brings it to 17/23.  If you're buying Victory cards and your deck is pretty garbage already, you're really going to want to get to 5, and those added Coppers might help you there.

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