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[LastFootnote]

An obvious idea, but I'd like to give it some scrutiny: a Coppersmith for Silver. Is such a card worth making, and how much would it cost?

One of the Dominion Outtakes is:

Vault
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Silver produces an extra $2 this turn.

We don't have any information about why it didn't make it into a set. Was it too strong, too weak, or just not interesting enough? Did it encourage a boring strategy?

At one point rinkworks tested this:

Silversmith
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Silver produces an extra $1 this turn.

He claimed it was pretty strong, but I'm not sure I buy that. The reason Coppersmith is worth buying is that your deck starts with 7 Copper already in it. Silver-that-makes-$3 is stronger than Copper-that-makes-$2, but you have to buy or otherwise gain all those Silvers, which weakens the card.

I'm considering this card:

Silversmith
Types: Action
Cost: $3/$4
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, Silver produces an extra $1.

Does that seem crazy? What do you guys think?

[scott_pilgrim]

I can't imagine that the Silversmith rinkworks tested is better than Harvest, which certainly isn't too strong.  I mean, how often is it going to give more than +$3?  It's probably roughly a terminal Silver for $5, unless you have some pretty good Silver-flooding.  In fact, I'm not even sure it makes sense that Silversmith would cost more than Coppersmith; if anything it should cost less, right?  You usually have more Copper in your deck than Silver.

I think your Silversmith is reasonable balance-wise, maybe even weak still.  It's sort of a cheaper Explorer I think; you gain Silver, and probably get about +$1 or +$2 out of it.  Explorer is a little better than "Gain a Silver to hand", and it's a very weak $5; this is a little worse than "Gain a Silver to hand", but it has some interactions with other cards that Explorer doesn't have.  The biggest concern I would have with it is that it's not fun, but I tend to think Silver-based cards aren't fun in general (Trader, Masterpiece, Feodum, etc.) so maybe that's just me.

[Awaclus]

Sounds pretty weak. Squire is a $2 card which guarantees a +$1 and gains a Silver terminally or has other utility, and the situations in which this is better than that sound pretty rare on paper to me.

[soulnet]

OTOH you usually want Silvers in your deck but not Coppers. The problem with Coppersmith is that in order to be good, you are forced to keep your Coppers. For Silversmith to be good, you need to keep Silvers. But usually keeping Silvers is something you do anyway, and keeping Coppers can be thought as a penalty.

I also find it hard to believe that rinkworks' Silversmith is OP. For a terminal $5 to be really strong, it has to contribute at least $4. Having SM with 4 Silvers is not easy, let alone more than 4. A $5-cost that gives you $4 terminally if you work for it is interesting, but nothing really OP.

Silversmith
Types: Action
Cost: $3/$4
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, Silver produces an extra $1.

A Silver gainer is good for BM. gain Silver and +$1 is way worse than Squire. gain Silver and +$2 is a little worse than Explorer, but not a lot. I guess it could be $4. I don't think the under-the-line is going to produce more than $2 in a BM deck, being a terminal. In an engine that draws a lot (FV/Wharf) can be really powerful, but also fun. Since the Silver gaining is mandatory, the gaining also makes the engine less reliable, so it is hard to say. I guess is nice to have a Silver gainer that is bad for BM. gain a Silver and +$2 is probably on par with JoaT for BM without being under attack.

[LastFootnote]

scott_pilgrim and soulnet, I agree. Although I usually find Silver-based strategies fun, I don't know whether this particular card will be fun.

Trying to create a Silver version of Coppersmith, I wanted to do something more interesting than just "Silvers make more Coins". So I created this card:

Middleman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, when you discard a Silver from play, you may trash it. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5.

The only reason "Gain a Silver" is in there is because I don't think people want to have to waste a bunch of their buys on basic (non-Kingdom) cards in order to effectively pursue a strategy. See Rebuild, for example. Middleman can definitely be fun. I have used it to gain a pile of Duchies in the endgame, for example. But it's wonky and doesn't make a great first impression. Also I now have three other cards in my set that can potentially gain $5 cards.

It would be cool to have a card in my set that does something when you play a Silver, especially since it would combo with Fund (a Treasure card that can gain a Silver into your hand). But I'm having trouble coming up with a bonus other than +$1, which essentially makes the card a Silversmith.

[Awaclus]

scott_pilgrim and soulnet, I agree. Although I usually find Silver-based strategies fun, I don't know whether this particular card will be fun.

Trying to create a Silver version of Coppersmith, I wanted to do something more interesting than just "Silvers make more Coins". So I created this card:

Middleman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, when you discard a Silver from play, you may trash it. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5.

The only reason "Gain a Silver" is in there is because I don't think people want to have to waste a bunch of their buys on basic (non-Kingdom) cards in order to effectively pursue a strategy. See Rebuild, for example. Middleman can definitely be fun. I have used it to gain a pile of Duchies in the endgame, for example. But it's wonky and doesn't make a great first impression. Also I now have three other cards in my set that can potentially gain $5 cards.

It would be cool to have a card in my set that does something when you play a Silver, especially since it would combo with Fund (a Treasure card that can gain a Silver into your hand). But I'm having trouble coming up with a bonus other than +$1, which essentially makes the card a Silversmith.

Maybe it could require having some Silvers in play already and then do something more powerful (such as getting a +VP, or Upgrading a card in your hand, or something). Too complicated?

[soulnet]

Middleman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, when you discard a Silver from play, you may trash it. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5.

I think mixing "while in play" and "when you discard from play" is confusing, because one usually think as discarding from play as a simultaneous action. I understand that some existing cards do that (Scheme, Herbalist) but in this case, I would say "when you play a Silver". It does not make much of a difference anyway. Combos better with Counterfeit, but that's fine.

Seems like a potent card, though. When I am building an engine, I usually hate but need Silver to afford those expensive cards. This allows to use the Silver and then trash it for something actually good.

I see a problem with Silver+ and almost Silver+ (like Festival), because you will ALWAYS trash the Silver for them, even if you don't really need the bonus, and then deplete the pile without actually making progress on the game. Similar reason as to why not have Silver+ at $4.

[jpople02]

scott_pilgrim and soulnet, I agree. Although I usually find Silver-based strategies fun, I don't know whether this particular card will be fun.

Trying to create a Silver version of Coppersmith, I wanted to do something more interesting than just "Silvers make more Coins". So I created this card:

Middleman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, when you discard a Silver from play, you may trash it. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5.

The only reason "Gain a Silver" is in there is because I don't think people want to have to waste a bunch of their buys on basic (non-Kingdom) cards in order to effectively pursue a strategy. See Rebuild, for example. Middleman can definitely be fun. I have used it to gain a pile of Duchies in the endgame, for example. But it's wonky and doesn't make a great first impression. Also I now have three other cards in my set that can potentially gain $5 cards.

It would be cool to have a card in my set that does something when you play a Silver, especially since it would combo with Fund (a Treasure card that can gain a Silver into your hand). But I'm having trouble coming up with a bonus other than +$1, which essentially makes the card a Silversmith.

Maybe it could require having some Silvers in play already and then do something more powerful (such as getting a +VP, or Upgrading a card in your hand, or something). Too complicated?

If it required already having Silvers in play it'd have to be a Treasure.  Which could actually be kind of interesting:

Silversmith - Treasure - $5
If you have at least one Silver in play, this is worth $3.  Otherwise, it's worth $2.

Or, alternatively, it could be an Action that does something on discarding it if you have Silver in play.  Something like:

Silversmith - Action - $5
+1 Card, +1 Action.  When you discard this from play, if you also discard a Silver, you may trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more.

[Awaclus]

If it required already having Silvers in play it'd have to be a Treasure.

It wouldn't:

Silversmith
$4 Action
Gain a silver.
_____________________
While this is in play, when you play a Silver, if you have at least three Silvers in play, +1 VP.

[LastFootnote]

Middleman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Gain a Silver.
While this is in play, when you discard a Silver from play, you may trash it. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5.

I think mixing "while in play" and "when you discard from play" is confusing, because one usually think as discarding from play as a simultaneous action. I understand that some existing cards do that (Scheme, Herbalist) but in this case, I would say "when you play a Silver". It does not make much of a difference anyway. Combos better with Counterfeit, but that's fine.

Funny story: I actually changed it from "when you play a Silver" to "when you discard a Silver from play". My printed version still has the old version. I made the change so that it would be easier to track how many coins you had to spend during your Buy phase and so it was more clear that you still got the +$2 from the Silver (yes it's clear to us Dominion academics, but not necessarily to casual players). I think you're right that "when you play a Silver" is better, though. Or at least it should match with Herbalist, etc. and say "When you discard this from play, you may trash any number of Silvers from play. For each Silver you trash, gain a card costing up to $5." That could work.

Seems like a potent card, though. When I am building an engine, I usually hate but need Silver to afford those expensive cards. This allows to use the Silver and then trash it for something actually good.

Right, that was part of the idea. However, I feel like most players aren't going to "get" it upon first glance.

I see a problem with Silver+ and almost Silver+ (like Festival), because you will ALWAYS trash the Silver for them, even if you don't really need the bonus, and then deplete the pile without actually making progress on the game. Similar reason as to why not have Silver+ at $4.

I hadn't considered it in that light. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's really an issue. In fact, that's exactly the sort of combo that I'd planned Middleman around. I assume you pretty much always want to trash your Silvers for something, and sometimes that something will be a Silver+. The problem with Silver+ at $4 is that everybody will just buy them when they have $4 and want a Silver. If you bought a Middleman, it's because you intend to convert your Silvers into those cards. Maybe it's just an artificial distinction in my mind. If I end up testing Middleman more, I'll definitely keep this in mind.

[AJD]

Middleman can definitely be fun.

True.

[LastFootnote]

Well, I'm going to try playtesting this version and see how it goes.

Refurbish
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a silver.
While this is in play, Silver produces an extra $1.

[popsofctown]

A terminal silver gainer that rewards you for gaining Silvers is going to be even more monolithic-oriented than Jack.  Not necessarily stronger than Jack, but less likely to include other cards in its strategy.  Largely monolithic strategies can be a good thing, there is the interesting choice of whether to go for them at all (given that the monolithic strategy is sufficiently weak, like Alchemists.  Otherwise you get Rebuild).  And sometimes they have counters, so that's interesting too.  Both of those depend on making sure the strategy is weak most of the places it appears.

If you want to force the card to not be monolithically oriented, that's another direction you could go.

Silver Street
4$ Action
+2 Actions.
Gain a Silver.
Silver produces an additional 1$ this turn.

[Warfreak2]

But Refurbish has to trash a card - it's not a Silver flooder so much as a Silver Rats. (Maybe, like Rats, it should trash a card that is not a Silver). Also, to buy Province, you need Refurbish + 3*Silver + Junk, which is an unlikely hand, especially when you are running out of junk. I don't think the monolithic strategy would be very good - I think Silver Street would actually work a lot better as a monolithic strategy, since you can spam them, you don't need the junk in hand, and hands like 2*Silver Street + 2*Silver get to Province too. Besides, a Silver-flooding village is not viable for an engine, which will probably want to play 5 villages per turn.

[LastFootnote]

Warfreak nailed it. A BM+Refurbish deck is almost certainly going to fail hard. Also, unlike Jack and Rebuild, it's super vulnerable to discard attacks. Although I'm sure it's nice to have against cursers, it's not going to counter them by itself either.

[popsofctown]

This is not on the same planet as Rats.  Rats gains you more Rats, that's the problem.  You have control of how many Silversmiths to buy.

I'm not convinced that it's not an incredibly monolithic card.  You only need a 4 card hand to buy a Province using Silversmith and 3 Silvers, so the trashing isn't going to be a problem unless your 5th card is a Province, which is a first world problem.  If your fifth card is a silver or a gold, trashing it to gain a silver won't even considerably degrade the value of your deck.  If it's another Silversmith you can happily trash it for having done it's job by that phase of the game.

[Warfreak2]

The point was that it doesn't flood you with Silvers, rather, it converts other cards into Silver, meaning it doesn't increase your deck size. Requiring a particular four-card-combo (plus a trashable fifth card) makes it an unfeasible strategy - OK, there's another four-card combos that get you to Province, that's 4*Silver. But those are the only ways. Compare with Big Money which has various ways to make $8+: GGG, GGS, GGCC, GSSS, GSSC, GSCCC, SSSS, SSSCC. Note that trashing a Silver or Gold with Refurbish is pointless, as in that case your hand already has SSSS or GSSS, and the extra $ from Refurbish isn't needed at all.

Refurbish is probably a pretty decent BM card, but DoubleRefurbish will not be competitive with DoubleJack, and it also doesn't defend against handsize or trashing attacks. Refurbish is more like a Trading Post that only trashes one card at a time.

[popsofctown]

The point was that it doesn't flood you with Silvers, rather, it converts other cards into Silver, meaning it doesn't increase your deck size. Requiring a particular four-card-combo (plus a trashable fifth card) makes it an unfeasible strategy - OK, there's another four-card combos that get you to Province, that's 4*Silver. But those are the only ways. Compare with Big Money which has various ways to make $8+: GGG, GGS, GGCC, GSSS, GSSC, GSCCC, SSSS, SSSCC. Note that trashing a Silver or Gold with Refurbish is pointless, as in that case your hand already has SSSS or GSSS, and the extra $ from Refurbish isn't needed at all.

Refurbish is probably a pretty decent BM card, but DoubleRefurbish will not be competitive with DoubleJack, and it also doesn't defend against handsize or trashing attacks. Refurbish is more like a Trading Post that only trashes one card at a time.

Are you working off the assumption that a monolithic Refurbish strategy wouldn't be able to buy Gold? There's no reason it can't buy Gold.  So all the GGG, GGS stuff, that still applies.. you're going to draw Silvers you gained with Silversmith alongside Golds you bought with those Silvers, the same way Jack does.

You are agreeing with me when you say monolithic Refurbish is probably weaker than Jack.  I'm saying Refurbish is harder to improve with other actions than Jack. Jack at least has Hamlet and whatnot.

Whether or not monolithic Refurbish holds up against handsize attacks doesn't really impact my argument unless you mean to suggest that the presence of Militia will make you mix Refurbish with something else.  I think you probably would just drop Refurbish altogether though, if you replace several of your Silver purchases with, for instance, Lighthouse, Refurbish's appeal has dropped precipitously.  And it's not a helpful card for reliably playing an attack every turn either.

It seems like you keep giving reasons that this card would not be at the top of the BM+X simulator, but I never said it would be the best monolithic strategy, I just said it would be the most monolithic strategy (Aside from maybe Rebuild, which only coincidentally happens to be the best monolithic strategy).

[Warfreak2]

But if a monolithic strstegy is bad, then it won't be played, and therefore doesn't ruin the game. I'm not just arguing that it's not great, I'm arguing that it's bad - doublejack isn't dominant all that often, and when it is, it usually has an attack working ineffectually against it. Refurbish/bm is probably on par with masterpiece/bm.

[Awaclus]

But if a monolithic strstegy is bad, then it won't be played, and therefore doesn't ruin the game. I'm not just arguing that it's not great, I'm arguing that it's bad - doublejack isn't dominant all that often, and when it is, it usually has an attack working ineffectually against it. Refurbish/bm is probably on par with masterpiece/bm.

I assume you mean Masterpiece/BM with no support. Because with good support, Masterpiece/BM is nuts at best.

[soulnet]

But if a monolithic strstegy is bad, then it won't be played, and therefore doesn't ruin the game. I'm not just arguing that it's not great, I'm arguing that it's bad - doublejack isn't dominant all that often, and when it is, it usually has an attack working ineffectually against it. Refurbish/bm is probably on par with masterpiece/bm.

I assume you mean Masterpiece/BM with no support. Because with good support, Masterpiece/BM is nuts at best.

I am guessing the similarity is beause both are extremely susceptible to discarding Attacks. An engine playing Militia all the time will bring Masterpiece/BM to a complete halt.

[Davio]

I think any variant of Silversmith will work, mainly because you start with 0 Silvers.
So it'd be harder to make it overpowered than to make it underpowered.

So the attempt to power it up is to let it gain Silvers, but that supposedly makes it monolithic.

Now what can we do to not make it monolithic and let it be a good card for a lot of strategies?

There are some things you can do, you can give it some +Actions, for instance, you could also not let it gain Silvers automatically, only as a consolation prize, like:

Silversmith
$5 - Action

If you have no Silvers in your hand, you may reveal your hand to gain a Silver, putting it in your hand.
If you had one or more Silvers and didn't reveal your hand, Silver produces an extra $2 this turn.

(wording needs fixing, but I wanted to be clear rather than concise for this example)

So with 0 Silvers in your hand, this is just a terminal Silver which keeps the gained Silver.
With 1 Silver, it's effectively just a terminal Silver, worse than Woodcutter.
With 2 Silvers in hand, it's like a Tribute that always gives $4. With 3 Silvers in hand, it's crazy in giving $6!

This is nice enough for BM-decks which buy a good amount of Silvers anyway. It also helps dense engines which can perpetually draw a couple of Silvers. However, it's at that highly competitive price point: $5 and making it terminal doesn't help engines that much. And if engines start to take in a lot of Silver they may find themselves stall too much.

So that's my attempt at creating an interesting card.

[Awaclus]

But if a monolithic strstegy is bad, then it won't be played, and therefore doesn't ruin the game. I'm not just arguing that it's not great, I'm arguing that it's bad - doublejack isn't dominant all that often, and when it is, it usually has an attack working ineffectually against it. Refurbish/bm is probably on par with masterpiece/bm.

I assume you mean Masterpiece/BM with no support. Because with good support, Masterpiece/BM is nuts at best.

I am guessing the similarity is beause both are extremely susceptible to discarding Attacks. An engine playing Militia all the time will bring Masterpiece/BM to a complete halt.

That's true, though Masterpiece/BM also works very well with a lot of alt vp cards (Gardens, Duke and especially Feodum can easily become as good as Provinces), and Militia doesn't do much against a MP deck like that.

[LastFootnote]

The point was that it doesn't flood you with Silvers, rather, it converts other cards into Silver, meaning it doesn't increase your deck size. Requiring a particular four-card-combo (plus a trashable fifth card) makes it an unfeasible strategy - OK, there's another four-card combos that get you to Province, that's 4*Silver. But those are the only ways. Compare with Big Money which has various ways to make $8+: GGG, GGS, GGCC, GSSS, GSSC, GSCCC, SSSS, SSSCC. Note that trashing a Silver or Gold with Refurbish is pointless, as in that case your hand already has SSSS or GSSS, and the extra $ from Refurbish isn't needed at all.

Refurbish is probably a pretty decent BM card, but DoubleRefurbish will not be competitive with DoubleJack, and it also doesn't defend against handsize or trashing attacks. Refurbish is more like a Trading Post that only trashes one card at a time.

Are you working off the assumption that a monolithic Refurbish strategy wouldn't be able to buy Gold? There's no reason it can't buy Gold.  So all the GGG, GGS stuff, that still applies.. you're going to draw Silvers you gained with Silversmith alongside Golds you bought with those Silvers, the same way Jack does.

You are agreeing with me when you say monolithic Refurbish is probably weaker than Jack.  I'm saying Refurbish is harder to improve with other actions than Jack. Jack at least has Hamlet and whatnot.

Whether or not monolithic Refurbish holds up against handsize attacks doesn't really impact my argument unless you mean to suggest that the presence of Militia will make you mix Refurbish with something else.  I think you probably would just drop Refurbish altogether though, if you replace several of your Silver purchases with, for instance, Lighthouse, Refurbish's appeal has dropped precipitously.  And it's not a helpful card for reliably playing an attack every turn either.

It seems like you keep giving reasons that this card would not be at the top of the BM+X simulator, but I never said it would be the best monolithic strategy, I just said it would be the most monolithic strategy (Aside from maybe Rebuild, which only coincidentally happens to be the best monolithic strategy).

As far as being an extremely monolithic strategy: that is not my intent with the card. Where Jack benefits from cards that reduce handsize (Hamlet, etc.), I expect Refurbish to greatly benefit from cards that increase handsize (like Coppersmith does). A card that just made Silver give you an extra $1 would almost certainly be too weak at any cost because your deck starts with no Silver. So Refurbish gives you a Silver as a bonus. The reason it gives you that bonus rather than another one is so you don't have to spend your buys on Silver. Instead you can spend them on, say, engine components.

Testing will tell whether Refurbish is a decent BM+X strategy. If it's too good, I'll change it. But I don't expect it to be on the level of Jack or Rebuild. Those two cards are less powerful with a large hand, which is a big part of whey they are such standout BM+X cards. Most cards that are good in BM are better in an engine (like Wharf), and I'm hoping Refurbish falls into that category.

[manthos88]

Alright, I' ve been working a little while on a card like this, i've had some thoughts, and i came up with an idea i could have posted along with some other card ideas i have already posted in this subforum, but i didn't do it because it seemed somewhat inconsistent. It looks fun to me anyway:


SILVER-MAKER (ACTION, COST: 5)

+1 Buy

Reveal your hand. +(1) Coin per Silver card in your hand.

When you buy this, you may trash it. If you do, gain 2 Silvers, putting them on top of your Deck.


This idea came along with another idea about an effect i had in mind, which would be fun to exist in Dominion: Buy a card, or buy another effect at the same cost as this card. That effect, though, has to be relevant to the card. And this is primarily why i came up with this card.

Now, top-decking 2 Silvers at the cost of $5 may actually be pretty much overpowered, and perhaps you would want to buy this card much more for this effect than for the card itself. And that will also mean that this card can't be stacked in big numbers in your deck (which i don't know if it's good or bad, as the card can be pretty strong in some cases) and probably the pile will almost always run out, especially in those big-money games where u hit $5 and, not knowing what to buy, you end up overpaying for a Silver.