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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds  (Read 23750 times)

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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2013, 06:32:01 pm »
0

Like for Alchemy, I've started making some notes on the cards. Here's what it looks like so far:

Kind of neat
Hmmm.
Hmmm.
Hmmm.
Hmmm.
Owwwww.
What?
Bwah?
Hmmm.
Huh?
Huh?
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Fragasnap

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2013, 06:32:37 pm »
+2

Quote
Tiller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top card of your deck. You may pay a Coin token. If you do, put the card into yoru hand. Otherwise discard it and take a Coin token.

Is something missing from this card? Isn't this way worse than Candlestick Maker. It can sift by 1 extra card than Candlestick Maker does, but doesn't have +1 buy and costs $4 instead of $2. To the author: please don't take too much offense for me having singled out your card before the others. After all, card balance does not necessarily correlate to how good a card is.
Yeah, I'd only ever play Tiller ironically.
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werothegreat

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2013, 07:14:01 pm »
0

Thoughts!  Leaving out boring ones and my own.

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. If 4 cards are face-down, flip them over. At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.

Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.

Um.  Weird.  The Coin token really feels tacked on to this for no reason.


Quote
Dancer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. Take a Coin token. You may pay any number of Coin tokens. For each token you paid, +1 Action.

When you gain this, take a Coin token.

Cute.  I actually rather like this as a Village variant.


Quote
Royal Guard
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose one: Take a Coin token; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +$2 per token paid.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens.

Hmm.  The Reaction seems a little too powerful.  It would deter players from playing mild Attacks like Spy or Oracle.

Quote
Councilman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $8
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each other player pays a Coin token. If nobody did, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

You may underpay for this card. For each $1 you underpaid, each other player takes a Coin token.

Heh.  Cute, but I think too useless to ever see use.  Maybe drop the cost.

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Architect
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
+1 Action. +$1.

While this is in play, Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 Buy per $1 you overpaid.

I like the idea of the overpay, but I don't really like the actual played effect.  This is essentially better than Bridge.  In fact, this is demonstrably better than Bridge.  Play 4, overpay by $8, win.

Quote
Town Hall
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+3 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, choose a card you have in play. If you discard that card this turn, put it on top of your deck.

I like it.  Got a Crossroads sort of thing going on.


Quote
Tiller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top card of your deck. You may pay a Coin token. If you do, put the card into yoru hand. Otherwise discard it and take a Coin token.

This is not worth $4.  This is worth $2.


Quote
Demagogue
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
You may discard a Treasure. If you do, +2 Cards and +2 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Each other player reveals 2 cards from his deck per $1 you overpaid, puts the revealed Coppers back, and discards the rest.

I like the idea of an overpay Attack.

Quote
Bookkeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. At the start of your Buy phase, you may pay $2. If you do, take a Coin token.

This is not worth $3.


Bah so many more do later.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2013, 09:48:15 pm »
0

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. If 4 cards are face-down, flip them over. At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.

Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.

This has some undesired lose-track issues, as written.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2013, 09:54:15 pm »
0

Quote
Dancer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. Take a Coin token. You may pay any number of Coin tokens. For each token you paid, +1 Action.

When you gain this, take a Coin token.

Cute.  I actually rather like this as a Village variant.

Isn't this, like, so much worse than Village, as a Village variant?
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2013, 10:01:40 pm »
0

Quote
Strike
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Place a Coin token on each Kingdom pile.

When a player gains a card from a pile, he takes all the Coin tokens on it.

Quote
Wholesaler
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +1 Buy. Put a Coin token (from the supply) on any non-Victory Supply pile.

Cards cost $1 less per Coin token on their pile, but not less than $0. When a card is gained from a pile, remove a Coin token from that pile.

Presumably these do not interact with Trade Route, in the same way normal coin token cards don't interact with Pirate Ship, but I bet it'd still be confusing in practice.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2013, 10:30:24 pm »
+1

As I did with Alchemy, gonna read this from the bottom up.  And again, one of these is mine. :)

There are many cards that have both overpay and coin tokens.  I didn't really like that, but there's no good reason for it so I tried not to hold it against those cards.  I think I succeeded in keeping that out of any criticisms.

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. If 4 cards are face-down, flip them over. At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.

Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.

This doesn't really feel like a Guilds card to me.  The only tie to Guilds is the coin token, and that's an after-thought on this card.  There might also be some tracking issues with how cards are supposed to be returned to the Taskmaster mat.  I play Feast from the Taskmaster mat, then Graverobber to put the Feast on top of my deck.  Finally, I buy an Inn and shuffle my deck.  This last step might not even be necessary, depending on how lose-track functions (I don't really want to think about it right now).

Oh, broken scenario:

Let's say all 5 cards are face up on the mat.  I play 3 Taskmaster cards on my turn.  I play a fourth Taskmaster.  There are still no cards face down, so nothing gets flipped up.  I play the fifth Taskmaster, same deal.  Now all of the randomizer cards are in play (or in the trash, or maybe even in my deck, but let's just say that they're all in play).  At the start of my clean-up phase, I return all 5 cards to the mat face down.  They stay that way because there is no instruction to flip them face up again.

Those cards will never get flipped face up again.  The next person who plays Taskmaster takes a coin token, is unable to play a face-up card (there are none), and does NOT flip over the cards because there are 5 cards face-down, not 4. ;)

The proper fix is probably to have an instruction like, "In games using this, whenever 4 or more cards are face down on the Taskmaster mat, flip them all face up."

But anyway, the Graverobber issue and how it feels off-theme is enough for me to pass on this.  I would like it a lot more as a submission to Intrigue, sans coin token, and with a fix for the Graverobber issue.

Quote
Dancer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. Take a Coin token. You may pay any number of Coin tokens. For each token you paid, +1 Action.

When you gain this, take a Coin token.

Pay for actions.  Pretty basic idea, and I think it works alright here.  It could probably do with a cost reduction, considering you need to pay $1 just to match a regular Village.  Hmm, not sure though.  I suppose the author made it $4 because it's a lot like Baker, except without the free +1 action and gaining the possibility of multiple +actions.  Even so, I think this might work at $3, even factoring in the on-gain.

The on-gain actually makes a 4/3 split different from a 3/4 split.  The 4/3 can open double Dancer while the 3/4 can't.  That said, it's probably a bad idea to open with Dancer so it's not a big deal.

Quote
Sojourner
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
+$2. Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's the named card, put it into your hand. Otherwise, discard it or put it back.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, take a Coin token per $1 you overpaid.

As I said below for Savings, I am extremely wary of overpay for coin tokens.  Donald tested it because it was obvious, and it just didn't work. 

Also not a fan of the main action.  It's just terminal Mystic.  Mystic is so much more interesting because of its self-synergy.

Quote
Royal Guard
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose one: Take a Coin token; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +$2 per token paid.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens.

The main action is a bit weak.  The first choice is weaker than Candlestick Maker.  The second choice can be good, but you have to keep in mind that you are also skipping on the coin token you would have gotten with the first choice.  That means that the second choice is only useful if you are paying at least 2 coin tokens.  If you pay a single coin token for +$2, you might as well have kept that and gained another coin token with the first choice.  I like that it combos with the other coin token cards.

The reaction is simple but interesting.  Getting 2 coin tokens is pretty good.  I would note again that you should factor in the opportunity cost of using the reaction.  Yeah you take 2 coin tokens, but you could have taken 1 coin token anyways if you had kept it in your hand, not to mention the second choice.  It is a soft counter to hand reduction attacks though.

As it is, I think Royal Guard would be OK even at $2.  I like it though.  I was surprised that there was no official reaction for coin tokens in Guilds.  As I said for Builder (below), it would be nice to have a reaction here since there isn't an official one in Guilds.

Quote
Councilman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $8
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each other player pays a Coin token. If nobody did, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

You may underpay for this card. For each $1 you underpaid, each other player takes a Coin token.

I'm not really a fan of introducing "underpay" like this.  It requires additional rules to explain what it means even though most could intuit it.

I said for Highwayman (below) that attacking opponents' coin tokens seems wrong to me, though I can't really say way.  Not very useful criticism and I apologize for that here, as I did for Highwayman.

Better criticism -- it doesn't seem balance-able as is, and the underpay mechanic doesn't really seem to add much to the card.  Councilman itself does not produce coin tokens except in the underpay.  If there are no other coin token cards on the board, then Councilman is not much of an attack at all.  It only takes away what it may or may not have handed out when it was first purchased.  Without the attack, it's just Lab with +1 Buy.  Not that exciting, but useful.  If it were only that, the ballpark cost would be $6.  So let's say you actually buy Councilman at $6... then everybody else gets 2 coin tokens.  Which they can spend immediately, before you get to play your Lab+.  Or if they don't, then your Lab+ is a worthless cantrip for a turn or two.  There is a smudge of politics here in that, after you underpay for one, the next player(s) could spend their coin tokens and leave pressure on the last player to hold onto them in order to hinder you.

There is a weird interaction with Possession, especially in 2p.  Get a bunch of +Buys and then play Possession.  Spend every single Buy on a $0 Councilman, loading up the next player with dozens of coin tokens.  Possess him, spend all of those coin tokens.  You just got gained a bunch of strong cards for free AND guaranteed a massive possession turn.

So anyway, I don't really see it working at any price.  If it's too expensive (as it is now) then you pretty much have to underpay, but the benefit to others is generally just too good compared to what you're getting.  Lab+ is not that amazing.  And yet you can't cost is too low because it is still a Lab+.  Just doesn't really work.

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Jeweler
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
Take a Coin token. Name a card. Each other player reveals his hand. If the named card is reveald, take a Coin token.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take a Coin token per $2 you overpaid (rounded down).

Like Savings immediately below this, I'm wary of overpaying for coin tokens.  This is a little better thanks to the 2:1 conversion.  The main action seems OK.  Maybe a bit too weak, though I suppose the main thing is the overpay anyway.  I am wary, but it could work.  Not sure at all.

Quote
Savings
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5+
When you play this, it's worth $1 per Coin token you have.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take a Coin token per $1 you overpaid.

Donald has mentioned how overpay for coin tokens is crazy.  I'll trust him on that one.  Moreover, Savings just seems like it would be bonkers on its own, easily becoming worth more than even Platinum if there is even one other coin token card around.

Quote
Architect
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
+1 Action. +$1.

While this is in play, Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 Buy per $1 you overpaid.

This is $3 for Gold, as far as VP cards are concerned.  Better than Gold if you have +Buy, which you sort of always do via Architect's overpay.  This card seems broken to me.

Quote
Town Hall
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+3 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, choose a card you have in play. If you discard that card this turn, put it on top of your deck.

Just +3 actions is actually a vanilla bonus that is surprisingly rare to see.  I wonder if Donald ever tried it, and if so, what problems were there with it?  Maybe it just wasn't interesting enough?

The overpay is alright.  Basically Scheme.  Not sure if intended, but I find it funny in an anti-government kind of way. :) 

The card is kind of plain overall, but not necessarily in a bad way.  Hmm.

Quote
Pawnbroker
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
Take a Coin token. You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, take a Coin token per $2 in its cost, rounded down.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, the player to your left chooses a card in the Supply costing exactly $2 more than the amountyou overpaid. Gain it.

This should be re-worded to match Bishop.

Bishop-for-Coin Tokens is alright.  I think it's strong enough to cost $4, especially considering that it gives a free coin token off the bat vs. Bishop's +$1.

The overpay is interesting.  I like it.

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Porter
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, set aside the top card of your deck, putting it into your hand at the start of your next turn.

Hmm, that's actually kind of interesting.  Definitely feels like a Guilds card.  Like other cheap overpay cards, the main action is something that seems weak in general but can be situationally useful.  Putting cards back on top is often a drawback, but Porter makes it optional and thus only ever a benefit.  Situational, but still beneficial.  The optional overpay is interesting, making it similar to Tactician.  It has some neat self-synergy -- play Porter to topdeck some cards, then buy Porter to set some aside.  I really like this.

Quote
Tiller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top card of your deck. You may pay a Coin token. If you do, put the card into your hand. Otherwise discard it and take a Coin token.

If you discard the card, this is Candlestick Maker with some filtering instead of +1 Buy.  If you want to draw the card instead, it costs you a coin token.  It's more costly than it seems because you also miss out on the extra coin token you would have otherwise gained.  This is probably not worth $4.  It is a lot more interesting at $2, though maybe a bit too similar to CM anyway.

Quote
Jubilee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions. Take 2 Coin tokens.

While this is in play, you can't spend Coin tokens during your Buy phase.

Not sure if this is worth $5.  It's similar to Festival, trading off +1 Buy for coin tokens instead of virtual coin.  I'm not sure how big an impact the restriction is.  Hmm, probably comparable enough to Festival that it is worth $5.  Fairly interesting.

Quote
Demagogue
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
You may discard a Treasure. If you do, +2 Cards and +2 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Each other player reveals 2 cards from his deck per $1 you overpaid, puts the revealed Coppers back, and discards the rest.

Stables, but with an extra action instead of extra card draw.  I expect that would still be worth $5.  The overpay is fairly interesting.  Seems alright overall.

Quote
Bookkeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. At the start of your Buy phase, you may pay $2. If you do, take a Coin token.

Seems extremely weak to me.  Unlikely to buy it even at $2.  Sometimes you can use it to get an extra coin token, but you can't take advantage of it consistently unless you get a bunch in your deck and it's not strong enough to be worth that.

Quote
Housekeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Take a Coin token.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, at the start of Clean-up, trash a card from your hand or from play per $1 you overpaid.

Simple enough.  Probably just fine.

Quote
Highwayman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1. Take 2 Coin tokens. Each other player gives you a Coin token.

I don't really like this particular attack concept.  I don't know.  It's a worthless attack if nobody else has coin tokens, but Highwayman seems pretty strong even without the attack.  It just doesn't feel right to me.  Not really a useful criticism here, sorry.

Quote
City Councilman
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +1 Card per empty Supply pile.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, trash a card from the Supply that is not a Victory card.

Looks pretty good to me.  I like the overpay mechanic as a way to do trashing from the supply, which is a fairly common fan concept that never seems to work right.  Making it an overpay is a good idea.  It also makes surprise 3-piles a little more possible.  At the same time, the emptying of piles has an additional bonus for the card itself.  I like how it's all tied together.

Quote
Strike
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Place a Coin token on each Kingdom pile.

When a player gains a card from a pile, he takes all the Coin tokens on it.

A token on each Kingdom card pile.  That's actually really interesting.  It reminds me of Puerto Rico, even though I've only played it once, and probably some other games use a similar mechanic.  Eventually somebody might want to buy that Thief.  I think I might like it even more if the coin tokens were only taken on-buy instead of on-gain.  Not sure.

It is probably undercosted as is, though I'm not sure.  You are pretty much guaranteed to get one coin token back, maybe even two since it has +1 Buy.  With other cards, you could get even more.  On the flip side, it is potentially giving discounts to opponents as well.  I'd probably try it starting at $4.

Other than that, my main concern is logistical.  I imagine that games using Strike would run out the physical coin tokens pretty fast.

Quote
Barber
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Discard any number of cards and take a Coin token per card discarded; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +1 Card per token paid.

So this is the only Barber entered, huh?  Would have liked to see more, with some art of a frustrated man.  I mean, everyone is bald!  Would make for a good inside joke.

The action itself is fairly interesting.  SC for coin tokens is a good concept, and the additional card draw option adds some interesting symmetry.  The flexibility on top of being non-terminal makes me think that it is undercosted at $4, but the concept seems sound to me.

Quote
Builder
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. If you've played 4 Action cards this turn (counting this), take a Coin token.

When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, take a Coin token.

It's alright.  The top part heavily depends on there being non-terminal action cards around, which might not always be the case, but Conspirator is the same way.  The reaction is not too bad, though it treads a little close to Crystal Ball in the previous contest.  Crystal Ball might be worth redoing with coin tokens anyway.

It would be nice to have a reaction card here because Guilds doesn't have an official one.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Either you gain a Curse or each other player gains a Curse, your choice. You may trash a Curse from your hand. If you do, take 4 Coin tokens.

Yeah, this needs to be labelled as an Attack card. 

My first thought is that this is kind of like a far less reliable Death Cart.  Not a fan.  With further consideration... I feel like there's no good way to play it.  OK, I could gain a Curse... but then that's it.  That's all.  That's a waste of an action!  Maybe I would do this to try to get a Curse to trash to Investor later, but a +1 Buy would do as much for me and give me the option to do something else.  And it's not even reliable because you have to connect Investor and Curse, eep.  So the obvious choice is to Curse everyone else, but in that case this is mostly worse than Sea Hag despite costing more.  And now everyone has a free Curse that they can trash to their Investors, if they have any.  You hurt them, but there's still a chance it helps more than harms.  Doesn't feel good.

Quote
Bribe
Types: Action
Cost: $5+
+1 Action. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $5 you overpaid (rounded down), gain a Province.

Non-terminal Workshop to start.  That's alright, though not so interesting to me.  I'm just not a fan of most Workshop variants.

The overpay... huh.  Overpaying by $5 isn't that great.  You could have just bought a Province anyways, so it's sort of like getting Bribe for an extra $2.  If you overpay by $10 then you get two Provinces, which is an overall discount.  You paid $15 total and you got two Provinces (value of $16) plus the Bribe.  That's alright.  Could be interesting in a mega-turn strategy that just aims for one turn of massive money, without needing to worry about getting +Buy.  $45 is enough to pile-drive Provinces in 2p.

Quote
Legionnaire
Types: Action
Cost: $5+
You may pay a Coin token. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand. Otherwise, take a Coin token.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Each other player discards a card per $1 you overpaid.

The action is alright.  Take a Coin token, or pay a Coin token to gain a Gold in hand.  Alternates weak and strong.  It's possibly too powerful in combination with other coin token producers, but it's hard to say.

The overpay is an absolute deal breaker.  Too easy to produce a powerful deck that can overpay $5 every turn and lock everyone else out.  You don't even need to overpay that much if there are more than 2 players.  I overpay $2, next player overpays $2.  Third player is stuck with one card and can't do anything at all.  Repeat.  It just doesn't work.

A possible fix is to put a limit on how much a player has to discard, but then the overpay effect doesn't scale properly.

Quote
Sculptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard 2 cards. If you do, name 2 cards and reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. For each revealed card you named, take a Coin token and put that card on your deck. Discard the rest.

Not sure why it's called Sculptor.  The action is fairly interesting.  I doubt that the initial discard is necessary because the rest of it isn't THAT powerful, especially considering the $5 cost.  In the best cases, you get up 3 coin tokens and filter out junk otherwise.  There is some tension there -- your deck is (at least in the early game) mostly junk that you would rather discard, but guessing correctly top decks those cards instead of discarding them.  So would you rather filter them out or get coin tokens?  It's an interesting choice, and you might guess wrong anyway.

I like this, though I would recommend dropping the discard at the start.

Quote
Wholesaler
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Actions. +1 Buy. Put a Coin token (from the supply) on any non-Victory Supply pile.

Cards cost $1 less per Coin token on their pile, but not less than $0. When a card is gained from a pile, remove a Coin token from that pile.

Is this any different from just giving +$1?  Hmm.  I suppose it's different if you put multiple tokens on the same pile.  If I have two tokens on a pile and then buy it, I get a discount but I only remove one token.  The next purchase will still be discounted, though not quite as much.  OK, that's fairly interesting.

However, I'm going to call shenanigans on theme here.  It uses Coin tokens in name only -- you could use brand new Wholesaler tokens and it would play exactly the same.  So this card has no overpay effect and it doesn't actually have anything to do with coin tokens.  It almost kind-of sort-of has a "name a card" mechanic, but even that's a stretch.  This just feels completely off-theme to me and not a fit for Guilds.

Quote
Tavern
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$2. Trash a card from your hand. Pay a Coin token. If you have no Coin tokens, gain a Curse. If you gained a Curse, take 3 Coin tokens.

I'm going to guess that it's meant to be, "Pay a Coin token.  If you did not, gain a Curse."  As it is currently worded, if you start with one coin token, you end up having to pay it AND gain a Curse.

This is a pretty weird card.  It doesn't give you a choice about paying the coin token, which means it is really weak most of the time unless you are constantly spending your tokens.  When you do have tokens, this is essentially a Copper.  Kind of worse, in that a regular Copper doesn't drain away your saved coin tokens.  When you don't have coin tokens, Tavern gives you a nice chunk but it also curses you.  Kind of an interesting trade-off, but overall I don't think it would be worthwhile. 

Every play of Tavern does something bad -- it either drains away one of your coin tokens or it curses you.  It's interesting thematically, but I prefer my cards that are generally helpful rather than cards that always leave a bitter taste in my mouth.  Again, thematic, but it's not to my taste.

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Potter
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
Take 2 Coin tokens. You may pay up to 5 Coin tokens. For each Coin token you paid beyond the first, gain a card costing up to $4.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, take a Coin token, then play this.

OK, this is a terminal "take 2 coin tokens" unless you pay to gain cards.  You can pay up to 5 coin tokens.  Let's say you pay 2 coin tokens.  In that case, you break even on tokens compared to when you played Potter.  For your trouble, you would get to gain two cards costing up to $4.  That means Potter is essentially a double Workshop.  Considering the option to just take the coin tokens, as well as the option to pay 3 extra coin tokens to get up to 3 extra cards (up to 5 total), that's a LOT better than Workshop.  That's easily worth $5, probably $6.

But wait, there's more.  There is also an overpay.  The first problem is that it doesn't scale.  You can overpay any amount and it doesn't change the bonus.  Therefore you would never overpay by more than $1.  But then you gain a new coin token and get to play the card?  That's incredible.  It means overpaying actually gives you a discount on the card.  I pay $4, overpay $1, then I get $3 back in coin tokens.  Net cost to me is $2.  That's ridiculous.  You don't get to spend any of those new coin tokens this turn, but it's still super powerful.

This just seems broken powerful to me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2013, 10:43:32 pm »
+1

As for Taskmaker, it seems to me that it's just like Overseer, except there is more variety in what it provides you. The played card gets put back on the mat face down, and only face up cards can be played. It resets once 4 of the 5 cards are face down. The mat appears to be communal.

Actually, looking closer, it only resets during clean-up, because the Randomizer cards stay in play and don't get flipped face down till the end of the turn.  It can also only be played 5 times per turn, once for each effect.

As written, it only gets reset on play if there are 4 cards face down.  Not so great if there are 3 face down at the start of your turn and you have multiple Taskmasters to play, and that's after that the problems that I point out in my big post above get fixed.  Not sure if there's a way to fix that issue at all without having cards returned prior to clean-up phase.  Maybe it's not that big a deal?

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Royal Guard
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose one: Take a Coin token; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +$2 per token paid.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens.

Hmm.  The Reaction seems a little too powerful.  It would deter players from playing mild Attacks like Spy or Oracle.

Doesn't seem too powerful to me.  Keep in mind that the player could choose to take 1 coin token on play anyways, so the reaction only gives 1 extra coin token.  I don't think it deters any more than Horse Traders does.

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Architect
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
+1 Action. +$1.

While this is in play, Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 Buy per $1 you overpaid.

I like the idea of the overpay, but I don't really like the actual played effect.  This is essentially better than Bridge.  In fact, this is demonstrably better than Bridge.  Play 4, overpay by $8, win.

After you play 4 Architects, you have $4 and Province (and all victory cards other than Colony) costs $0.  But to overpay for an Architect by $8, you still need an extra $7 from other cards.  Therefore, this is not strictly better than Bridge.

That said, it's still basically a Gold for $3 when it comes to VP cards, sooooo.
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2013, 12:51:45 am »
+1

As for Taskmaker, it seems to me that it's just like Overseer, except there is more variety in what it provides you. The played card gets put back on the mat face down, and only face up cards can be played. It resets once 4 of the 5 cards are face down. The mat appears to be communal.

Actually, looking closer, it only resets during clean-up, because the Randomizer cards stay in play and don't get flipped face down till the end of the turn.  It can also only be played 5 times per turn, once for each effect.

As written, it only gets reset on play if there are 4 cards face down.  Not so great if there are 3 face down at the start of your turn and you have multiple Taskmasters to play, and that's after that the problems that I point out in my big post above get fixed.  Not sure if there's a way to fix that issue at all without having cards returned prior to clean-up phase.  Maybe it's not that big a deal?

Ideally, you would play the Taskmaster, get the effects of a card, flip the card -- without moving the cards into your hand.  Then if there were four face down, you'd flip them all back up.

Difficult to word that, though.  Makes you appreciate the good ol' Overseer Mat.

KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2013, 01:04:36 am »
+1

As for Taskmaker, it seems to me that it's just like Overseer, except there is more variety in what it provides you. The played card gets put back on the mat face down, and only face up cards can be played. It resets once 4 of the 5 cards are face down. The mat appears to be communal.

Actually, looking closer, it only resets during clean-up, because the Randomizer cards stay in play and don't get flipped face down till the end of the turn.  It can also only be played 5 times per turn, once for each effect.

As written, it only gets reset on play if there are 4 cards face down.  Not so great if there are 3 face down at the start of your turn and you have multiple Taskmasters to play, and that's after that the problems that I point out in my big post above get fixed.  Not sure if there's a way to fix that issue at all without having cards returned prior to clean-up phase.  Maybe it's not that big a deal?

Ideally, you would play the Taskmaster, get the effects of a card, flip the card -- without moving the cards into your hand.  Then if there were four face down, you'd flip them all back up.

Difficult to word that, though.  Makes you appreciate the good ol' Overseer Mat.

Maybe something like BoM could work. Like "This is a card on the mat until it leaves play," that way it'll self trash if it's Feast and such. Solves some issues.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2013, 04:09:37 am »
0

I like these cards:

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. If 4 cards are face-down, flip them over. At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.

Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.
This is realy cool! Sort of black-market, but with more fairness. I think one card will never be played, but that's ok even if I would flip the cards over if all 5 cards are face-down. And I like the decision if I play the Taskmaster to use the 4th card and give the opponent the choice of all 5 cards or not.

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Royal Guard
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose one: Take a Coin token; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +$2 per token paid.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens.
Don't know how strong this is. I think with other coin-tokens-gainers this will be very strong. The first part is ok, but i really like the reaction-part.

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Councilman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $8
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each other player pays a Coin token. If nobody did, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

You may underpay for this card. For each $1 you underpaid, each other player takes a Coin token.
I think this costs to much. This should cost $3 or 4, so noone will buy it, because it will give the others too many coin tokens. The first part is problematic too, because this will lead to a diplomacy-problem. We don't want to pay coin tokens, but I don't want the player to get +1 card, +1 buy. So it will be the last person who has to pay his tokens always. I don't like that.
Ok, to be honest, I really don't like the card, but I love the underpay-idea, so I will propably vote for it.

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Town Hall
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+3 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, choose a card you have in play. If you discard that card this turn, put it on top of your deck.
Nice overpay-effect.

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Jubilee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions. Take 2 Coin tokens.

While this is in play, you can't spend Coin tokens during your Buy phase.
Nice anti-synergy with itself. This seems to be an ok effect, but it won't let you use the effect this turn. Maybe a bit to weak.

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Highwayman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1. Take 2 Coin tokens. Each other player gives you a Coin token.
I like the attack. Noone will keep his coin tokens, so the attack won't be so good. But the first effect is strong enough, that you'll buy the card. The only thing the card will do ist leading people to use the coin tokens immediately, which is interesting.

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Barber
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Discard any number of cards and take a Coin token per card discarded; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +1 Card per token paid.
Simple but nice way to use and get coin tokens.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2013, 01:01:43 pm »
0

I said for Highwayman (below) that attacking opponents' coin tokens seems wrong to me, though I can't really say way.

It reminds you of being Possessed after building up a stockpile of tokens. 

Quote
There is a weird interaction with Possession, especially in 2p.  Get a bunch of +Buys and then play Possession.  Spend every single Buy on a $0 Councilman, loading up the next player with dozens of coin tokens.  Possess him, spend all of those coin tokens.  You just got gained a bunch of strong cards for free AND guaranteed a massive possession turn.

This is not weird. It's Possession. What if your opponent only has one buy possible in his deck? The problem here is optimal play with Possession is weird, not Councilman.

I play lots of Governors for draw then Possess you! I pass you an Ambassador with my Masquerade then Possess you! I King's Court a Possession and take 3 of your turns!!! BWHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I hate Possession.

Councilman, however, I like a lot.  :) Maybe it would work better at $7-? I am not sure. The underpay idea is really innovative and feels like Guilds, though.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2013, 02:33:55 pm »
0

Guys, I'm really busy at work today, so I don't have time for much discussion/update. Perhaps I'll have time later tonight or tomorrow. I did want to let you know that I updated Royal Guard such that the reaction can now also be used when you play an Attack.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2013, 02:34:04 pm »
+1

Quote
Highwayman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1. Take 2 Coin tokens. Each other player gives you a Coin token.
I like the attack. Noone will keep his coin tokens, so the attack won't be so good. But the first effect is strong enough, that you'll buy the card. The only thing the card will do ist leading people to use the coin tokens immediately, which is interesting.

Why is a card which becomes a terminal +buy gold and turns other interesting coin token effects into standard money interesting? What you've said you expect to happen sounds like the exact opposite of interesting.

This pretty much has the 'reflect attacks' problem, I think. In games using it people won't buy other coin token cards very often, because they won't be able to save coin tokens. Meanwhile Highwayman is pretty powerful if you can keep the coin tokens, so multiple players are likely to buy into them, ending up with an okayish, but boring, card, as coin tokens are almost always used on the spot.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2013, 02:55:44 pm »
0

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. If 4 cards are face-down, flip them over. At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.

Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.

Well, it's a cool concept, but it probably needs to be reworded somehow.  Also it's probably a better fit for Cornucopia, as Overseer might have been.

Quote
Dancer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. Take a Coin token. You may pay any number of Coin tokens. For each token you paid, +1 Action.

When you gain this, take a Coin token.

Not bad, but seems like it should cost 3.

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Sojourner
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
+$2. Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's the named card, put it into your hand. Otherwise, discard it or put it back.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, take a Coin token per $1 you overpaid.

Too close to Mystic.

Quote
Royal Guard
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose one: Take a Coin token; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +$2 per token paid.

When any player (including you) plays an Attack card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens.

EDIT: Changed the reaction from activating when any other player plays an Attack card to when any player plays an Attack card.

The ability to double the value of your Coin Tokens seems like it could be crazy.  The reaction is fine.

Quote
Councilman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $8
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each other player pays a Coin token. If nobody did, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

You may underpay for this card. For each $1 you underpaid, each other player takes a Coin token.

This isn't really an attack, is it? 

Skipping over question of whether the Underpay concept is valid, I think this is worth play-testing.  You can underpay for it but you give your opponents bullets to use against you.  It does create a strange dilemma in multi-player games, though, where you pass on spending a coin token because you hope someone else will pay the check.  That feels a bit un-Dominion.

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Jeweler
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
Take a Coin token. Name a card. Each other player reveals his hand. If the named card is reveald, take a Coin token.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take a Coin token per $2 you overpaid (rounded down).

I dunno, I'm not sure I want to spend all this time guessing what's in my opponent's hand.  Tokens are nice but here I think I'd just rather have Silver.

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Savings
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5+
When you play this, it's worth $1 per Coin token you have.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take a Coin token per $1 you overpaid.

This is a little too crazy when there are other token-producers.  Too bad, because there's something I like about it when it's the only token producer on deck. 

I know you're not supposed to do overpay for tokens but I think at 5+ it's probably OK.

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Architect
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
+1 Action. +$1.

While this is in play, Victory cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 Buy per $1 you overpaid.

3 seems really cheap for this.  Quarry is 4 and can't be played until the buy phase.  Two of these and you can Ironworks Provinces. 

Seems like it just speeds the game into greening.

Quote
Town Hall
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+3 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, choose a card you have in play. If you discard that card this turn, put it on top of your deck.

The overpay is really close to Herald's.  Except there's this awkward pause between the overpaying and the benefit being accrued.  +3 actions is not adding much.

Quote
Pawnbroker
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
Take a Coin token. You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, take a Coin token per $2 in its cost, rounded down.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, the player to your left chooses a card in the Supply costing exactly $2 more than the amount you overpaid. Gain it.

I don't know if I get the Overpay.  You spend $3, plus the cost of the thing you want, minus $2.  So, you pay an extra $1, and as a benefit, you get a Pawnbroker, but you don't get to choose what you get, just its cost.  And then, is Pawnbroker something you'd want more than one of?  There seems like there's something here, but it really doesn't add up.

Quote
Porter
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, set aside the top card of your deck, putting it into your hand at the start of your next turn.

I like the overpay, but better over a 3 or 4; over a 2 makes mega-turns a little too easy.  6 for a nine-card hand next turn seems too clearly the right choice.  The top part isn't bad, but would you buy it other than for the Overpay?  Could it cost 3 or 4? 

The connection between the two is more thematic than tactical. I mean, you put the cards on your deck, then you buy a second one and set those cards away?  OK, but, regardless of the Porter you bought, you were going to draw those top-decked cards anyway.  It's the next cards that Porter lets you access.

Well, it's an interesting card and a great beer.

Quote
Jubilee
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions. Take 2 Coin tokens.

While this is in play, you can't spend Coin tokens during your Buy phase.

Why am I amassing tokens if I can't spend them during my Buy phase?  OK, I'll spend them some other time.  But that really hurts the value of the tokens I'm getting.  I mean, this is Necropolis the turn you play it.

Quote
Demagogue
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
You may discard a Treasure. If you do, +2 Cards and +2 Actions.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Each other player reveals 2 cards from his deck per $1 you overpaid, puts the revealed Coppers back, and discards the rest.

Stables, but a little different.  Then this Overpay attack that is often going to be weak, especially because the card itself adds value to Coppers.  I dunno, doesn't add up for me.

Quote
Bookkeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. At the start of your Buy phase, you may pay $2. If you do, take a Coin token.

Seems a lot like Plaza, but with much less utility.

Quote
Housekeeper
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Take a Coin token.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, at the start of Clean-up, trash a card from your hand or from play per $1 you overpaid.

I think Doctor already covers Overpay trashing.

Quote
Highwayman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1. Take 2 Coin tokens. Each other player gives you a Coin token.

This should have a secondary attack on players that don't have the token.  That would encouraging players to buy this, so that they have some tokens to defend the secondary attack.  Kind of like how Knights work.

Quote
City Councilman
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +1 Card per empty Supply pile.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, trash a card from the Supply that is not a Victory card.

I just think trashing from the Supply goes against the grain.  It denatures the cards and makes everything kind of generic.

I also don't like that this card rewards itself for annihilating alternate strategies.  Though it is a lot of work to go to just to get a Smithy +Buy.

Quote
Strike
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. +1 Buy. Place a Coin token on each Kingdom pile.

When a player gains a card from a pile, he takes all the Coin tokens on it.

I like this, but it is a lot of physical work with all those tokens.  I just think it needs to be narrowed down from "each Kingdom pile" to, say, each pile costing 3 or less, or maybe even 2.  Just so everyone's thumbs don't get tired.  Expensive cards don't really need bonuses anyway.  Also, if you're not putting tokens on Victory piles, that's better, so as not to cause confusion in Trade Route games.

Quote
Barber
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Choose one: Discard any number of cards and take a Coin token per card discarded; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +1 Card per token paid.

I think this works.  Perhaps better at $5?

Quote
Builder
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. If you've played 4 Action cards this turn (counting this), take a Coin token.

When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, take a Coin token.

Conspirator and Tunnel, basically, with those cards' rewards replaced with "gain a coin token."  But I don't think a coin token is a cool enough reward for the work either of those cards make you do.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Either you gain a Curse or each other player gains a Curse, your choice. You may trash a Curse from your hand. If you do, take 4 Coin tokens.

It's a curser and a defense against cursers.  The end result of this card is that all the Curses will be in the trash, players will have coin tokens, and the Investors will be dead cards.  It feels like a lot of treading water. 

I don't think the move of buying Investors to gain in order to gain Curses to trash them will ever be worthwhile.

Quote
Bribe
Types: Action
Cost: $5+
+1 Action. Gain a card costing up to $4.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $5 you overpaid (rounded down), gain a Province.

OK, so this will privilege decks that generate large sums of cash.  I don't really think the Workshop plays into that, but maybe that's interesting.  I kind of like it.

Quote
Legionnaire
Types: Action
Cost: $5+
You may pay a Coin token. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand. Otherwise, take a Coin token.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Each other player discards a card per $1 you overpaid.

The top is, I think, weak for 5.  It's on average a terminal $1.5, although you do get to keep the Gold you get every other play.  Well, it's strong with other token cards, I guess.

The bottom can be used to pin opponents.  That's usually a deal-breaker, but here, maybe not.  The pin would usually cost $10 to activate, and it can't be used indefinitely.  So, it might not be a game-breaker.  Worth exploring, I suppose.

Quote
Sculptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may discard 2 cards. If you do, name 2 cards and reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. For each revealed card you named, take a Coin token and put that card on your deck. Discard the rest.

Very complicated.

Quote
Tavern
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$2. Trash a card from your hand. Pay a Coin token. If you have no Coin tokens, gain a Curse. If you gained a Curse, take 3 Coin tokens.

From the "a lot of things" family of cards, a la Jack of All Trades and Soothsayer.  Hard to evaluate.  I guess it's alright.

Quote
Potter
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
Take 2 Coin tokens. You may pay up to 5 Coin tokens. For each Coin token you paid beyond the first, gain a card costing up to $4.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, take a Coin token, then play this.

Seems like this makes it way too easy way to amass 4s.  The bottom part means that this card can be two 4s and Potter for your opening $4.

LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2013, 03:27:39 pm »
0

By the way, the next contest will be the second Seaside contest. There's a card I want to get feedback on, and it fits Seaside better than any other set. The submission deadline will be after the new year so that people will have time to create and submit (or resubmit) a card without cutting too much into their holidays.
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cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2013, 04:51:05 pm »
0

Agree that Dancer is too weak. But I don't think making it cheaper helps. In a game with no other source of coin token, its just a crummy card. In order for it not to be a cantrip, you have to waste turns playing an even crummier card. The coin token on gain helps offset that a little, but would quickly get burned up.

Giving it +1 action turns it into strictly better than vanilla peddler but probably reasonable at $5

Giving it +2 coin tokens instead of +1 would make it even stronger, but I think still reasonable at $5

Not sure how to make it work at $4 though. The idea is cool at first glance, but seems flawed by its dependence on specific support cards...

I also agree that Strike is really cool in theory, but might be too much work to actually execute.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:53:26 pm by cluckyb »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2013, 04:58:58 pm »
0

Guys, I'm really busy at work today, so I don't have time for much discussion/update. Perhaps I'll have time later tonight or tomorrow. I did want to let you know that I updated Royal Guard such that the reaction can now also be used when you play an Attack.

Quote
Royal Guard
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose one: Take a Coin token; or pay any number of Coin tokens and +$2 per token paid.

When any player (including you) plays an Attack card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens.

OK, my thoughts on the above-the-line stuff is unchanged.  It still seems generally weak, with potential power/usefulness with certain combos (especially with other coin token producers).

The reaction now applies to your own attacks too.  I like that a lot.  It sets it further apart from other reactions and it allows for more combo potential.  It's also a decent fit, thematically.  Have your guards defend you, or send them out on the offensive.

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. If 4 cards are face-down, flip them over. At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.

Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.

Well, it's a cool concept, but it probably needs to be reworded somehow.  Also it's probably a better fit for Cornucopia, as Overseer might have been.

I still think it fits best with Intrigue.  The main thing is that it gives choices.  It doesn't really promote variety, IMO, since the "variety" is all self-contained.  I suppose that's debatable though.

Quote
Councilman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $8
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each other player pays a Coin token. If nobody did, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

You may underpay for this card. For each $1 you underpaid, each other player takes a Coin token.

This isn't really an attack, is it? 

Skipping over question of whether the Underpay concept is valid, I think this is worth play-testing.  You can underpay for it but you give your opponents bullets to use against you.  It does create a strange dilemma in multi-player games, though, where you pass on spending a coin token because you hope someone else will pay the check.  That feels a bit un-Dominion.

It's an attack because every player is forced to pay a coin token if they have any.  It's not a choice for the opponents.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2013, 06:38:15 pm »
0

Quote
Highwayman
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1. Take 2 Coin tokens. Each other player gives you a Coin token.
I like the attack. Noone will keep his coin tokens, so the attack won't be so good. But the first effect is strong enough, that you'll buy the card. The only thing the card will do ist leading people to use the coin tokens immediately, which is interesting.

Why is a card which becomes a terminal +buy gold and turns other interesting coin token effects into standard money interesting? What you've said you expect to happen sounds like the exact opposite of interesting.

This pretty much has the 'reflect attacks' problem, I think. In games using it people won't buy other coin token cards very often, because they won't be able to save coin tokens. Meanwhile Highwayman is pretty powerful if you can keep the coin tokens, so multiple players are likely to buy into them, ending up with an okayish, but boring, card, as coin tokens are almost always used on the spot.
This will change the whole system of coin-tokens. Of course you'll spend them fast and they get +$1, but there will be decisions wether to spend them (maybe for nothing) or still hold them and  hope. The interesting thing I thought of is, that you can't keep the coin-tokens for the best situation as now, but you have to gamble a bit.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2013, 10:50:34 pm »
0

Agree that Dancer is too weak. But I don't think making it cheaper helps. In a game with no other source of coin token, its just a crummy card. In order for it not to be a cantrip, you have to waste turns playing an even crummier card. The coin token on gain helps offset that a little, but would quickly get burned up.

Giving it +1 action turns it into strictly better than vanilla peddler but probably reasonable at $5

Giving it +2 coin tokens instead of +1 would make it even stronger, but I think still reasonable at $5

Not sure how to make it work at $4 though. The idea is cool at first glance, but seems flawed by its dependence on specific support cards...

Giving it +1 action doesn't just make it strictly better than vanilla peddler, it also makes it strictly better than Baker, so it can't cost $5.

I think the problem with Dancer is not anything that you describe.  Sure it's only a cantrip if you spend the coin token every time, but a lot of the time when you play a cantrip you don't end up using the leftover action, so the flexibility of saving the coin token to make it a village later makes it pretty decent as a cheap card (I still think it should cost $2 or $3 if that were the main purpose of the card).  The problem with Dancer is that the cool new thing that it does, namely saving actions for when you need them, is something which will probably not happen very often.  I think it would mostly get used as "+1 card, take a coin token", and then the whole spending coin tokens for actions thing will feel like just some other weird effect that it can do.  I would like the card a lot more if the tokens it collected for actions couldn't be spent as money as well (and then the price would be bumped down to $2).

As I think about it more though, I'm starting to like the card as it is.  I think I'm underestimating how useful being able to spend the coin tokens for actions is.  If you get lots of Dancers, you don't have to worry about them colliding since they can always be cantrips, so they are much more spammable than the simpler "+1 card, take a coin token" would be.  Getting a coin token on-gain is pretty nice too, probably what makes it okay at $4 (without it I think it could cost $3 or maybe $2).
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cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2013, 02:59:50 am »
+1

Agree that Dancer is too weak. But I don't think making it cheaper helps. In a game with no other source of coin token, its just a crummy card. In order for it not to be a cantrip, you have to waste turns playing an even crummier card. The coin token on gain helps offset that a little, but would quickly get burned up.

Giving it +1 action turns it into strictly better than vanilla peddler but probably reasonable at $5

Giving it +2 coin tokens instead of +1 would make it even stronger, but I think still reasonable at $5

Not sure how to make it work at $4 though. The idea is cool at first glance, but seems flawed by its dependence on specific support cards...

Giving it +1 action doesn't just make it strictly better than vanilla peddler, it also makes it strictly better than Baker, so it can't cost $5.

I think the problem with Dancer is not anything that you describe.  Sure it's only a cantrip if you spend the coin token every time, but a lot of the time when you play a cantrip you don't end up using the leftover action, so the flexibility of saving the coin token to make it a village later makes it pretty decent as a cheap card (I still think it should cost $2 or $3 if that were the main purpose of the card).  The problem with Dancer is that the cool new thing that it does, namely saving actions for when you need them, is something which will probably not happen very often.  I think it would mostly get used as "+1 card, take a coin token", and then the whole spending coin tokens for actions thing will feel like just some other weird effect that it can do.  I would like the card a lot more if the tokens it collected for actions couldn't be spent as money as well (and then the price would be bumped down to $2).

As I think about it more though, I'm starting to like the card as it is.  I think I'm underestimating how useful being able to spend the coin tokens for actions is.  If you get lots of Dancers, you don't have to worry about them colliding since they can always be cantrips, so they are much more spammable than the simpler "+1 card, take a coin token" would be.  Getting a coin token on-gain is pretty nice too, probably what makes it okay at $4 (without it I think it could cost $3 or maybe $2).

fair enough. Guess I forgot how much 'gain a coin token' is really worth. And its true that games hurt the most by a terminal +1 card take a coin token are problem ones without good villages and plenty of useful terminal cards, which are the ones most benefited for being able to save up actions. But it still seems trappy. You first need to get a situation where you have it and no other terminal action you want to play, and then you need to get in a situation where you have it and two or more other terminal actions you want to play.
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Davio

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2013, 04:56:11 am »
+2

Just a general thought: I'm starting to trust the Dominion community more than Donald at this point. It seems like we somehow aren't allowed to try things he thought were too good/bad/crazy/whatever.

And this is the guy who let Rebuild through!

Jokes aside, what I'm saying is: Just because Donald said something about a certain mechanic, doesn't mean that it can never work. If this community thinks something needs a boost or a nerf after 1000s of plays, I'd rather trust the community than the designer.

The only disadvantage we have with fan cards is that we aren't able to playtest them well.

A lot of cards on every list are very, very, hard to judge without proper playtesting and yet we need to. So I think we end up making choices that are perhaps too conservative.
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2013, 12:41:21 pm »
0

Just a general thought: I'm starting to trust the Dominion community more than Donald at this point. It seems like we somehow aren't allowed to try things he thought were too good/bad/crazy/whatever.

And this is the guy who let Rebuild through!

Jokes aside, what I'm saying is: Just because Donald said something about a certain mechanic, doesn't mean that it can never work. If this community thinks something needs a boost or a nerf after 1000s of plays, I'd rather trust the community than the designer.

The only disadvantage we have with fan cards is that we aren't able to playtest them well.

A lot of cards on every list are very, very, hard to judge without proper playtesting and yet we need to. So I think we end up making choices that are perhaps too conservative.

I agree with you. However, we do give credit to the more complex ideas, even if we don't test them. Things like Overseer got a lot fo discussion, with points for both sides. I'm sure if it were playtested and worked on it would be an amazing card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2013, 01:19:58 pm »
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OK, so I've received (a while ago) updates for Taskmaster. Here it is:

Quote
Taskmaster
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Take a Coin token. Play a face-up card from the Taskmaster mat. (If 4 or more cards are face-down, flip them face-up first.) At the start of Clean-up, return all cards played this way to the Taskmaster mat face-down.
Setup: Put the randomizers for 5 cards each costing up to $4 on the Taskmaster mat face-up.

The ballot will be up as soon as I can get it up!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 01:21:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #8: Guilds
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2013, 02:08:14 pm »
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I am going to do a video review of the cards, I just haven't had any time.
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