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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy  (Read 39357 times)

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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2014, 08:49:53 pm »
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Oops, missed the voting deadline.

Ah well.
Too caught up with discussing the cards, eh?
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2014, 09:08:45 pm »
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Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2014, 10:38:25 pm »
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Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

Agreed about Incantation.

Research I still like. What is wrong with "Remodels into Potion cards"???

Those were the only two of the ones that advanced which I voted for
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2014, 11:24:53 pm »
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Oops, missed the voting deadline.

Ah well.

Whoops, meant for this to run into Monday. I'll bring the poll back up for another day.
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2014, 11:31:45 pm »
0

Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

Agreed about Incantation.

Research I still like. What is wrong with "Remodels into Potion cards"???

Those were the only two of the ones that advanced which I voted for

There aren't a ton of Potion cards on the board, and you already have one card that's solely dedicated to getting them.  Also, other than Vineyard, there's no VP potion cost, so "Remodel-into-Potion" is going to become irrelevant.  The result is a card you won't get until the 3rd shuffle, that will soon become useless.

What do you like about Research?

cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2014, 01:54:13 am »
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Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

Agreed about Incantation.

Research I still like. What is wrong with "Remodels into Potion cards"???

Those were the only two of the ones that advanced which I voted for

There aren't a ton of Potion cards on the board, and you already have one card that's solely dedicated to getting them.  Also, other than Vineyard, there's no VP potion cost, so "Remodel-into-Potion" is going to become irrelevant.  The result is a card you won't get until the 3rd shuffle, that will soon become useless.

What do you like about Research?

I like research for the same reason I liked the smithy variants. Unless you count transmute, there isn't a remodel variant in Alchemy. Even without the "or $1P" the "remodel two cards at once, add the cost" is interesting enough for further consideration
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2014, 03:12:25 am »
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Thoughts on the top cards.

INCANTATION: Good card.  Worth play-testing.
RESEARCH: A lot of fussy restrictions make it borderline unplayable.  The whole "Remodels-into-Potion-cards" concept might not actually be such a hot idea.
DRUID: A dominating card that is obviously useful, but creates very few interesting choices.
ELIXIR (B): Cantrip then Throne Room.
ELIXIR (C): Overpowered.  Will too often lead to races to drain the Elixir (C) pile.
CONTRAPTION: Does what University does but is almost always worse at it and is very expensive.  Good for fans of 9-card kingdoms.

Agreed about Incantation.

Research I still like. What is wrong with "Remodels into Potion cards"???

Those were the only two of the ones that advanced which I voted for

There aren't a ton of Potion cards on the board, and you already have one card that's solely dedicated to getting them.  Also, other than Vineyard, there's no VP potion cost, so "Remodel-into-Potion" is going to become irrelevant.  The result is a card you won't get until the 3rd shuffle, that will soon become useless.

What do you like about Research?

I like research for the same reason I liked the smithy variants. Unless you count transmute, there isn't a remodel variant in Alchemy. Even without the "or $1P" the "remodel two cards at once, add the cost" is interesting enough for further consideration

I don't think "there isn't a remodel variant in Alchemy" is reason enough to vote for a card.  Especially since it's very possible that "trash a card, gain a card costing P more" is just a weak concept.  Maybe there's a good reason that there's no Remodel variant in Alchemy.  (Except Transmute.)

As far as "remodel two cards at once, add the cost" being an okay card, I agree.  That card would be okay, if basically a retread of other things.  But adding on to that card "or 1p" and a bunch of other stuff doesn't necessarily improve the design.

eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2014, 03:47:32 pm »
0

Oops, missed the voting deadline.

Ah well.

Whoops, meant for this to run into Monday. I'll bring the poll back up for another day.

OK, since the poll is re-opened, my favourites...

Quote
Ivory Tower
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Card. +1 Action. Choose one: Set aside a card from your hand face down on your Ivory Tower mat; or put up to 3 cards from your mat into your hand. You may look through your cards at any time; trash them at the end of the game.

Clarification: On-trash effects are triggered. They are resolved in player order starting from the player on whose turn the game ended.

I like the mechanic.  Simple concept overall, but it has flexible uses -- a way to pull together combo pieces, a temporary Island, pseudo- (or actual) trashing.

Quote
Enclave
Types: Action
Cost: $2P
+2 Actions. You may discard your hand. If you do, +1 Card per Action card you have in play.

Novel, interesting, and I think it is well aligned with the action-heavy theme of Alchemy.  It has potentially powerful draw, but the hand discard requirement is a nice check.  It prevents you from drawing your whole deck (like with Madman) unless you've designed your deck in a specific way (i.e. lots of actions you can play off before discarding and drawing).

Quote
Incantation
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. If you do, reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a card that costs more than it and shares a type with it. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.

Simple, unique filtering mechanic.  Pretty cool.

Quote
Elixir (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Action. +1 Buy. +$1. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Potion or a card costing at least P. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest.

Most interesting Market variant I've seen in a while.  Having thought on it more, the self-chaining is a little scary and might actually warrant a $4P cost.  Still sounds fun enough to warrant a vote.
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Ozle

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2014, 07:27:09 pm »
0

Is the trashing of ivory tower meant to be like that, i would think it would work better if it just said 'at the end of the game these cards do not count as in your deck' or, return them to the supply.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2014, 08:38:46 pm »
0

Is the trashing of ivory tower meant to be like that, i would think it would work better if it just said 'at the end of the game these cards do not count as in your deck' or, return them to the supply.

That clarification was part of the original submission, yes.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2014, 09:33:06 pm »
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Is the trashing of ivory tower meant to be like that, i would think it would work better if it just said 'at the end of the game these cards do not count as in your deck' or, return them to the supply.

That was being discussed recently in this thread.  I think the general idea is clear, and if it happens to win then everyone could suggest how to phrase it best.

FWIW, "return them to the supply" would be a bit strange.  Game ends in 3-pile, but what happens if a card returned un-empties a pile?  Presumably the game is still over, but it's confusing.  Or, what happens if you have a card that isn't from the supply, like Madman?  It can't be returned, so is it still yours?  Matters for certain victory cards, like Gardens.
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2014, 11:08:00 pm »
0

Quote
Elixir (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
+1 Action. +1 Buy. +$1. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Potion or a card costing at least P. Put that card into your hand and discard the rest.

Most interesting Market variant I've seen in a while.  Having thought on it more, the self-chaining is a little scary and might actually warrant a $4P cost.  Still sounds fun enough to warrant a vote.

Even at 4P, Elixir itself makes amassing Elixir very easy.  Only the first one will be difficult to buy. 

I don't really see this card as interesting.  If you buy a Potion and then nothing but Elixirs, your hands will all more or less play themselves.  It's basically, "+1$, +buy, play all the Elixirs in your deck and put the rest of your deck in the discard."

dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2014, 04:27:09 pm »
+1

Bottle Imp:

Druid and Research, as well as a few other submissions, demonstrate a desire1 for an "alternative path to Potion cards."  That's a reasonable aspiration.  Potion cards are fun!  Potions themselves are not.

But both of those cards illustrate the difficulties with the concept of "replacing" Potion.  Druid, by both trashing your Potion and then seamlessly replacing it, takes all the "cost" out of Potion-cost cards.  It's too obvious a solution to the Potion problem, and ends up oversimplifying gameplay, rather than branching it out.  Research, on the other hand, is a redundancy -- a card you need a Potion to buy that then fills your deck with more Researches to get more Potion-cost cards.  You'll rarely want Research if you've already bought a Potion.

Bottle Imp is, I think, the closest the contest came to a true Potion-alternative.  I think it works because it doesn't aim to replace Potion.  You need two action cards in play to even buy Imp2.  So it will be even later that you finally get Potion cards into your deck than if you'd gone the straightforward route.  Also, because each Imp has to be sacrificed to get a Potion card out of it, you'll never get as many Potion cards out of Imp as you would with Potion.  So, while it's nice to get Potion cards without having to clog your deck with Potion, the drawbacks of Bottle Imp are appropriately severe.  It's a true alternate route, and provides actual branching gameplay.

I don't think Imp is often a viable route, though.  Potion cards are designed to be massable, and Bottle Imp won't usually let you mass them.  So when you're going after mass Scrying Pools, Alchemists, or Apothecaries, Bottle Imp is probably worse than Potion.3  Familiar, on the other hand, you don't want to mass.  But you want them ASAP, sooner than your opponent, and Bottle Imp is going to lose the footrace to Potion.

Bottle Imp is a nice card for picking up Golems, since you don't really want a Golem until you have a lot of actions in your deck already, and you usually don't anticipate getting more than a few of them.  You might prefer Imps when Golem is the only other Potion cost card on the board.  But, Golem also tends to replace the need for Alchemist and Scrying Pool, so, even with those cards present, skipping Potion might be preferable.  Bottle Imp can also work nicely with Philosopher's Stone, a card that is more valuable later, and that you won't want more than a few of.  And, in those cases where a Familiar is better later4 Imp is a nice Potion alt. 

But, there are few cases when Bottle Imp beats Potion.  Usually, Potion will be the best way to buy Potion cards.  Luckily, Bottle Imp has other uses! 

Someone commented that Imp's ability to gain Duchies is a bad reward for the hoops you have to go through to get one.  But on engine boards, gaining Imp will be trivial, because you will almost always have two Action cards in play.  In those instances, the ability to trash into a Duchy can be huge for the endgame.  If you trash Imp on your last shuffle, then it was essentially a Market that was worth 3VP, which you probably bought for 5.  That's a great deal.

For that reason, it's probably good that you can't trash Imp into Duchy if you already have two Action cards in play.  That's the thing I really like about the card.  The "two action cards in play" clause intersects with the card's value at two critical points.  When the card costs 5, instead of 5P, it can no longer be trashed into Potion cards OR into 5s.  Now it can only grab 4s.  That might be nice for grabbing mass Silk Roads/Gardens/Feoda in a game-ending mega-turn.  But mass trashing into Duchies will be difficult.5

Imp has a few other uses besides trashing into VP.  In situations where +Buy is more valuable early in the game, such as with Peddlers, or with other Potion costs, you might want a "market" now, but a different 5 later.  You might want to trash them late-game into activated Cities.  The card offers some intriguing flex potential on a variety of boards.  And of course, there's also those other boards where all you really want is +buy or another non-terminal, and it's cost barrier is nothing more than a giant hassle.  Those are fun, too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on my own card.  Thanks to those who voted for it and who said nice things about it!

1 If not an actual need.
2 Obviously you'd almost never buy it for 5P.
3 Though an Imp grabbed opportunely can help you win the Scrying Pool split.
4 Say your opponent has trashed down and then re-bloated their deck.
5 Though not impossible, since Imp can still be trashed into Duchy even if there's already one Action Card in play.  It self-trashes, so it no longer counts as an "action card in play" when the gaining happens.  Scrying Pool or Tactician can help you trash a bunch of Imps into 5s on the same turn.

Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2014, 10:42:59 am »
0

Say, did LastFootnote mention when the second part of the contest(s) will start? I don't want to nag, annoy or apply pressure here, i'm just curious for the results.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2014, 10:58:20 am »
+1

Say, did LastFootnote mention when the second part of the contest(s) will start? I don't want to nag, annoy or apply pressure here, i'm just curious for the results.

Dude, you do not need to worry about annoying me. I could use a lot more nagging. I'm the one dropping the ball here. I'm working from home today, so I'll try to find the time this afternoon to get this back up and running.
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Nic

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #115 on: January 30, 2014, 01:30:17 pm »
0

Well, I don't think anyone minded this time around. The contests were put together so we could look at new cards, and everyone in this subforum has been hanging out in the Enterprise threads for the past week or two. The time was certainly well spent.
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2014, 02:13:35 pm »
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Well, I don't think anyone minded this time around. The contests were put together so we could look at new cards, and everyone in this subforum has been hanging out in the Enterprise threads for the past week or two. The time was certainly well spent.

Thinking of it now, maybe the pause is also a good thing for the contest itself... I can't talk for anybody else, but it gave me the time to go over my cards again without stress, and i think i might have something for Dark Ages, Intrigue and Prosperity now. Hope it will have the same effect on others so we'll see some clever new designs then :)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #7: Alchemy
« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2014, 10:09:19 pm »
0

Say, did LastFootnote mention when the second part of the contest(s) will start? I don't want to nag, annoy or apply pressure here, i'm just curious for the results.

Dude, you do not need to worry about annoying me. I could use a lot more nagging. I'm the one dropping the ball here. I'm working from home today, so I'll try to find the time this afternoon to get this back up and running.
Okay, here's some nagging for you
Hey LastFootnote, come on and get these contests moving! Get to it. chop chop
I almost tripped over that ball you dropped, twice. pick it back up.
 ;D
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