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[NoMoreFun]

I think Tea House was a mistake and its existence (and the Secret Histories) make me question the playtesting process.

But it isn't strictly better than Mystic etc. because you may not want to trigger the prophecy, and you may want to know the top card of your deck without drawing it (e.g. Sorceress, Zombie Mason).

Speaking of which, my recurring complaint strikes again.


Poet
Action - $4
+1 Sun
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck and put it into your hand. If it cost $3 or less, +1 Card.

As for Tea House, it's kind of ok as a card that very heavily motivates the prophecy happening but I would have preferred something that leans into that idea (like an "In games using this, when a player shuffles their deck, +1 Sun" - just make it inevitable) instead of an overpowered Vanilla Card.

Thought this could work

Tea House
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$2
If you have $4 or more, trash this.

(Don't get greedy, and it interacts with cards that give debt in turn with the debt rule change).

[segura]

That looks weaker than Mining Village. I think they should have just rolled with the City Version of Tea House, the one that only becomes a DoublePeddler once a pile is empty.

[Jonatan Djurachkovitch]

...
Speaking of which, my recurring complaint strikes again.
...

Would you elaborate on this complaint? I think it is perfectly fine to draw first and then reveal a card, it makes the text a bit easier to parse. Your version would of course have been fine as well, but the difference in my estimate is so minor in mechanical effect, and accounting of the aforementioned readability it would demand a big reason to break convention with all the other cards that do this kind of thing (not speaking about potential might-have-beens.)


While writing this I reread your comment and I think I understand your idea. It would be nice to have as many of these cards as possible interact with the first card on the deck, so that they could have synergies (Lookout and Wishing Well for example, which doesn't work using the current wording.) You would have to weigh if you want the more intuitive wording or what could possibly be more fun. Although I don't think it matters that much, because while pulling off a combo with Wishing Well or another 2nd-card inspector may be harder than it "ought to" be, it is the more satisfying when you pull it off. (I wanted to try to sneak in a joke about your username in this paragraph, but decided it wasn't worth it)

[NoMoreFun]

I've always found it highly irritating that there are quite a few effects that let you know or control what the top card of your deck is, and then there's a whole bunch of cards that come close to interacting but actually don't. Most pronounced for me with Wishing Well (which I always considered Mystic a "fixed" version of). Just always seemed dumb to me that the 2nd from top card was important, like it was a design mistake.

[LastFootnote]

I think Tea House was a mistake and its existence (and the Secret Histories) make me question the playtesting process.

The process was: I complained loudly and (unsurprisingly) futilely about Tea House, and then it got published. Yeah, you mostly just get it when you'd get Gold, except it's better and cheaper than Gold. Yeah, it makes Mystic (and in my opinion most $5 Peddlers) look like a joke. But it didn't ruin Donald X.'s games, so out it went. Sorry, I'm a little salty about it. And about Prophecies in general, but that's separate.

I feel like, a lot of—but not all!—playtesting for Rising Sun was on TGG's client against its AI. I don't know whether or not that's related to the fact that I don't really like Rising Sun much compared to the other Dominion expansions I've worked on. Some of it is a me thing. I got a new job about a year ago and it's taking a lot more of my time and energy, and I haven't had nearly as much time for Dominion playtesting. And I hate testing new cards against an AI. It's just not fun. But I don't know, I look at the cards, Events, and Prophecies, and I'm just like, "Man I've seen all this before." Except Divine Wind. That's new. New and really impractical in IRL games.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

[NoMoreFun]

I guess the issue with Tea House vs the other $5 Peddlers is that you can always imagine circumstances where you'd want the effect over the $ - you need Market's buy or Bazaar's action etc. So it is hard to levy "strictly better" accusations except against Mystic. "Peddler with a bonus" is a $5 archetype and the bonus is another $.

I hope it doesn't mean Mystic is on the chopping block for Dark Ages 2E as it's a great card.

I would hope the play testing process moving ahead includes:

• Side by side comparisons with the existing card set
• Simulations for cards that would be good in BM
• Games with just a single new card in full random (you'd be able to get through a lot soft launching them with regular dominion online players), so you can get good stats on how effective the card is, whether people want to buy it etc.

[kieranmillar]

I think they should have just rolled with the City Version of Tea House, the one that only becomes a DoublePeddler once a pile is empty.

This was tried on a number of conditions and was always just awful, there's a reason it didn't survive. Just a complete trap card, you endlessly lose if you buy it. Worse than Treasurer. Worse than Treasurer is a terrible fit for an omen, which want enough plays in a reasonable timeframe for the prophecy to actually happen.

I feel like, a lot of—but not all!—playtesting for Rising Sun was on TGG's client against its AI.

This got tons of player vs player testing. Jnails and DZ easily must have got in about 100 games against each other, and I tested a bunch of recommended sets against DZ. These are off the top of my head. We usually would play more vs each other, me being in a different time zone means you are often the only one who can play on a weekday, that didn't happen much here for various reasons.

[kieranmillar]

I would hope the play testing process moving ahead includes:

• Side by side comparisons with the existing card set
• Simulations for cards that would be good in BM
• Games with just a single new card in full random (you'd be able to get through a lot soft launching them with regular dominion online players), so you can get good stats on how effective the card is, whether people want to buy it etc.

Do you think nobody noticed the similarity to Mystic?

Big Money simulations are completely unrealistic and fairly useless in practice. For example, Gear is crazy strong in a Big Money scenario, notice how this doesn't matter at all in almost every game with Gear, because it's better when you use it in conjunction with the rest of the kingdom.

Only Donald X does this as a full time job. Most cards don't need solo testing, but ones that people are unsure about unsurprisingly get a lot more testing than others. I can think of one card in particular that didn't make the cut, got an awful lot of focus.

[segura]

I don’t see how a card that needs to played a maximum (there could be other Omens) amount of 5, respectively 8 times in multiplayer, can be a trap card. City definitely ain’t and here the power gap is far larger
Conspirator, Vassal and even the strong Highway seem less easy to set up and also more difficult to understand / play well.

Dark Ages was, at least in my opinion, the last set which overpowered cards that felt totally untested. So I find it pretty sad that this overpowered, and also boring version, of Tea House got published.

[JW]

That looks weaker than Mining Village. I think they should have just rolled with the City Version of Tea House, the one that only becomes a DoublePeddler once a pile is empty.

To clarify, the version discussed in the Secret History was Peddler that became double Peddler once the prophecy happened. I think segura knows that but mistyped.

[NoMoreFun]

Do you think nobody noticed the similarity to Mystic?

Honestly, it's plausible. Sometimes it seems like changes happen at the last minute before publishing without that much consideration, and Tea House becoming a full time double peddler seems like one.

[D782802859]

I don’t see how a card that needs to played a maximum (there could be other Omens) amount of 5, respectively 8 times in multiplayer, can be a trap card. City definitely ain’t and here the power gap is far larger
Conspirator, Vassal and even the strong Highway seem less easy to set up and also more difficult to understand / play well.

Dark Ages was, at least in my opinion, the last set which overpowered cards that felt totally untested. So I find it pretty sad that this overpowered, and also boring version, of Tea House got published.

You don't need to buy City for it to get better, and even when you don't, a $5 vanilla Village is sometimes something you have to buy. You never have to buy a worse Treasury.

[segura]

I don’t see how a card that needs to played a maximum (there could be other Omens) amount of 5, respectively 8 times in multiplayer, can be a trap card. City definitely ain’t and here the power gap is far larger
Conspirator, Vassal and even the strong Highway seem less easy to set up and also more difficult to understand / play well.

Dark Ages was, at least in my opinion, the last set which overpowered cards that felt totally untested. So I find it pretty sad that this overpowered, and also boring version, of Tea House got published.

You don't need to buy City for it to get better, and even when you don't, a $5 vanilla Village is sometimes something you have to buy. You never have to buy a worse Treasury.

With City the delta is a Lab, with the hypothetical version of Tea House the delta is a Peddler. So the power gap is definitely larger. The price gap is also larger (City and the hypothetical version of Tea House both cost $5, but a Peddler costs $4 and a Village costs $3) and yet City is often enough the first pile that empties.
And, last but not least, the trigger gap is larger. Needing an actual empty pile is far harder to achieve than playing that $5 Peddler 5/8 times.

That is why I don’t buy the notion that the nerfed versioned of Tea House was too weak.

[461.weavile]

Do you think nobody noticed the similarity to Mystic?

Honestly, it's plausible. Sometimes it seems like changes happen at the last minute before publishing without that much consideration, and Tea House becoming a full time double peddler seems like one.

I know I've personally created a fan card that was straight up Junk Dealer with a minor Attack added on at the same cost and didn't notice for years.

[grrgrrgrr]

I have some ideas for Tea Party

Tea Party (Action - Omen, $5)
+1 Sun
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$2
-
This costs 3D more if the Prophecy has been activated.

Tea Party (Action - Omen, $5)
+1 Sun
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
If this is the first time you played Tea Party this turn, +$1.