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Author Topic: Donald X on Rebuild  (Read 66565 times)

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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2013, 03:42:52 pm »
+5

"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.

It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.

But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.

I disagree.  What if we disagree over whether or not Island was in the Black Market deck?  I swear that I bought it, but you insist that it wasn't in the deck.  We can't check without thumbing through my deck.  Or what if I were to name Dame Stephanie?  You tell me that there is no Dame Stephanie, and I tell you that you are out of your mind, there is totally a Dame Stephanie; it's the one that curses.  We can't just check the Knights pile (especially since the top of the Knights pile is most certainly not Dame Stephanie).

Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile?  Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.
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Kirian

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2013, 04:00:48 pm »
0

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?  That doesn't really need memorization.

Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile?  Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.

That's probably the best example so far.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2013, 04:03:53 pm »
0

"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.

It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.

But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.

I disagree.  What if we disagree over whether or not Island was in the Black Market deck?  I swear that I bought it, but you insist that it wasn't in the deck.  We can't check without thumbing through my deck.  Or what if I were to name Dame Stephanie?  You tell me that there is no Dame Stephanie, and I tell you that you are out of your mind, there is totally a Dame Stephanie; it's the one that curses.  We can't just check the Knights pile (especially since the top of the Knights pile is most certainly not Dame Stephanie).

Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile?  Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.

All good points.
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2013, 04:19:40 pm »
0

Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2013, 04:22:23 pm »
+9

Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.

Edge cases to other games?  Is that what we've come to?
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2013, 04:23:38 pm »
0

Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.

Edge cases to other games?  Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
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florrat

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2013, 04:37:47 pm »
+5

Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.

Edge cases to other games?  Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #182 on: December 17, 2013, 04:45:25 pm »
+10

Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.

Edge cases to other games?  Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough


That case clearly goes beyond the edge.
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soulnet

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #183 on: December 17, 2013, 04:53:05 pm »
+9

Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough


Don't you think that's going a bit overboard? You are definitely crossing a line.
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Marcory

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #184 on: December 17, 2013, 04:55:47 pm »
+2

All this xoxo. Won't public displays of affection get this moved to the RSP forum?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #185 on: December 17, 2013, 05:07:58 pm »
+1

All this xoxo. Won't public displays of affection get this moved to the RSP forum?

Anyone else hard as an ox?

No?  Good, I'm not castrated either.
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manthos88

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #186 on: December 18, 2013, 04:34:35 am »
0

I see how people complain about Rebuild and i totally agree with them! I'm pretty sure you all wish there was a way to fix this problem and so am I!

Rebuild needs, as it is called in online games, a good nerf.
But there is a big problem here: How is a printed card going to get nerfed???
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #187 on: December 18, 2013, 04:57:33 am »
0

Since the boring part with Rebuild is buying Duchies with 5, here is a radical tweak for Rebuild:

When this is in the supply it's not possible to buy Duchy.

(Other Duchy gaining is allowed. In some Kingdoms there would be a Duchy race as we know it anyway, because of Border Village for example, but that would only be sometimes.) I think that usually you wouldn't just get Rebuilds for 5, but when you now would get a Duchy instead you might get something to play your Rebuilds more often, or to attack, or to get some economy for Provinces. More variation.

I think that would be interesting, maybe a little too inelegant though?

Yeah, it's kind of a sledgehammer of a fix. A unique and interesting sledgehammer for sure, but still. Wham!

Also, you'd almost need a component to put on the Duchy pile to remind you that you can't buy them this game.
Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?

The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.

What if we changed the "up to $3 more" to "at least $1 more"?

This way, you can't Rebuild Provinces into Provinces to speed the game up and it becomes a bit of a liability. This means you would almost always name Province once you have one.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #188 on: December 18, 2013, 05:43:34 am »
+1

Quote
What if we changed the "up to $3 more" to "at least $1 more"?

Know what your idea is - but if I take this literally, I'll rebuild my estate into a colony thank you :-)

How about "A different victory card costing up to $3 more" ?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 05:45:30 am by TheMirrorMan »
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #189 on: December 18, 2013, 06:10:00 am »
+1

I'm just such a nice guy, I obviously meant "at least $1 and at most $3 more". :)

But different victory card works just as well.
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pst

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #190 on: December 18, 2013, 06:55:47 am »
0

Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?

The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.

Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #191 on: December 18, 2013, 11:57:33 am »
0

Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?

The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.

Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)

But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.

If you want to change buying rules, I'd rather consider:

"You may not buy Rebuild unless a Province has been bought."

(You could use the Trade Route tokens to track this.)
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pst

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #192 on: December 18, 2013, 12:13:22 pm »
0

But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.

I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5, and even rather seldom you'd like two Estates for that matter, if you happen to have +Buy. But I haven't tested anything.
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blueblimp

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #193 on: December 18, 2013, 01:51:36 pm »
0

Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?

The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.

Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)
It's okay for attacks like Witch to be strong because they exert a game-slowing effect, opening the door for complex strategies like engines. Rebuild exerts a game-accelerating effect, which is the problem.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #194 on: December 18, 2013, 02:31:02 pm »
0

But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.

I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5

Then you just buy another Rebuild.  One of the tactical decisions you have to make in a Rebuild game is knowing when to switch from Rebuilds to Duchies.  If Duchy is not a buy option, then you just go for Rebuild every time.  Of course that's slightly weaker than if Duchy is available, but not nearly enough that Rebuild is no longer dominant on most boards.  I think it's only a slight nerf, and actually makes Rebuild less interesting.

Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more?  I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.
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Puddleglumm

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #195 on: December 18, 2013, 03:04:05 pm »
+1


Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more?  I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.
But then it's not as much fun with Feodum! (I have no idea if it makes sense to get Feodum involved in a Rebuild deck, probably not, but I did it recently and thought it was fun)
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #196 on: December 18, 2013, 03:58:47 pm »
0

But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.

I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5

Then you just buy another Rebuild.  One of the tactical decisions you have to make in a Rebuild game is knowing when to switch from Rebuilds to Duchies.  If Duchy is not a buy option, then you just go for Rebuild every time.  Of course that's slightly weaker than if Duchy is available, but not nearly enough that Rebuild is no longer dominant on most boards.  I think it's only a slight nerf, and actually makes Rebuild less interesting.

Yes, that's what I think as well. The strategy would be simple: Buy Rebuild for $5, Silver or Estate for $3, Estate for $2.


Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more?  I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.

I think the simplest fixes are removing the +1 Action or increasing the price; and both have been shown to be effective for making Rebuild-BM non-dominant (the price increase to $6 probably too much so).

"Return to supply" is also a relatively simple (and elegant) fix, but I'm not sure if it really weakens Rebuild so much; have you playtested/simulated it? It could actually help Rebuild that the Duchies rarely run out in the non-mirror, similarly as with pst's proposal. (It might hurt Rebuild more if only the Provinces are returned to the supply instead of trashed, not the Duchies.)

Maybe you could just increase the Province pile size in Rebuild games, fixing Rebuild without changing the card itself?
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #197 on: December 18, 2013, 04:02:27 pm »
0

Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #198 on: December 22, 2013, 05:36:09 am »
+1

I like the top deck Remodel since it gives you a way of remodelling something that's "the same card" multiple times in the same turn, which doesn't really exist in Dominion at the moment. That seems like a worthwhile thing to explore. If you knew, you were doing that, you could play around with when trash effects, so it seems like a good fit for dark ages.

This sort of thing is why I'm pissed off about the idea that there can't be any more expansions.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #199 on: December 22, 2013, 06:23:56 am »
0

I like the top deck Remodel since it gives you a way of remodelling something that's "the same card" multiple times in the same turn, which doesn't really exist in Dominion at the moment.
Actually I've done this already a few times with Upgrade-draw-deck-engines. Especially combined with KC.
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