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Author Topic: Donald X on Rebuild  (Read 66586 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #150 on: December 17, 2013, 10:53:05 am »
0

Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?

Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.

This is actually surprisingly close to the card I submitted to the Treasure Chest Design Contest for Intrigue:

Quote
Visiting Dignitary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary and a Victory card costing up to $6.

I like a combination of the two that looks something like this:

Visiting Rebuilder
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary. Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 Coins more than it.
This sounds pretty nice IMO, but is it weak enough for $4? It's still basically just the current Rebuild except that it depletes the Rebuild pile and then becomes unusable.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #151 on: December 17, 2013, 10:57:45 am »
+2

(Re-posting this for emphasis and clarity.)



Rebuild is already a very wordy card. There's not a lot of extra space there. Furthermore, it's one of the most difficult Dominion cards to parse. Easy for us Dominion scholars, sure, but not for the casual player. Any suggested fix that makes Rebuild more complex is a non-starter. Rebuild does not deserve lots of tiny text. Its core concept (upgrading Victory cards) is not that compelling.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2013, 11:17:52 am »
0

I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2013, 11:24:06 am »
+2

I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...

But Possession is interesting enough to warrant confusion. Rebuild is not. Just like what Donald said about how he would prefer powerful cards to be interesting, while Rebuild is powerful yet not interesting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2013, 11:30:58 am »
0

I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...

It's a problem because players—especially casual ones—do not have infinite patience for parsing cards. I have playtested a lot of cards, and I know that the more text a card has and the harder it is to understand exactly what it does, the less people want to buy it. Scrying Pool also has this issue, as detailed in Donald's time machine blurb.

Scrying Pool did not originally have an attack. It got one because I felt the set should have two attacks, and the names were already in - it was a tight schedule and art was being made while I worked on the cards. "Scrying Pool" was the name that felt like it could attack, paired with a card that felt like it could attack (yes I could have replaced Golem with an attack, but that was not on the table, Golem was too awesome). Now did I really need two attacks? Not enough to muck up Scrying Pool. This change made the card slower, more wordy, and less special-seeming. Before it was this cool draw-lots-of-cards thing; now it's Spy, something something, some kind of Spy variant I think, I'll read the rest later. I would rather have the faster simpler cooler card. Again Spy itself is bad, it's too slow for what you get, and Scrying Pool's Spy is worse, because you've got card-drawing built-in to get you more of them.

A really wordy card has to have a very compelling mechanic to make up for it. "Take an extra turn with another player's deck" is compelling. "Dig for a Victory card to trash (except the one you name) and then gain a (probably) better Victory card" is not that compelling.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:47:43 am by LastFootnote »
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Kirian

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2013, 11:31:06 am »
+2

I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...

So easy to understand that an entire page in the Alchemy manual is devoted to it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #156 on: December 17, 2013, 11:47:49 am »
0

(Re-posting this for emphasis and clarity.)



Rebuild is already a very wordy card. There's not a lot of extra space there. Furthermore, it's one of the most difficult Dominion cards to parse. Easy for us Dominion scholars, sure, but not for the casual player. Any suggested fix that makes Rebuild more complex is a non-starter. Rebuild does not deserve lots of tiny text. Its core concept (upgrading Victory cards) is not that compelling.
Seven lines, and the lines could be longer if necessary. The Finnish Possession, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand and Young Witch each have nine lines (Young Witch even has a "_____________" in addition to that), so it's definitely possible to fit more text there.

And in the same expansion, we have Urchin and Hermit (cards that add a lot of complexity to the kingdom on their own), Procession and Band of Misfits (cards with extremely complicated interactions with other cards), and a lot of stuff that modify a lot of the basic game mechanics (Shelters, Knights, Ruins, Rats, etc). It's not exactly a casual-friendly expansion at all, so there's little point in making Rebuild casual-friendlier.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #157 on: December 17, 2013, 12:06:48 pm »
0

Seven lines, and the lines could be longer if necessary. The Finnish Possession, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand and Young Witch each have nine lines (Young Witch even has a "_____________" in addition to that), so it's definitely possible to fit more text there.

And in the same expansion, we have Urchin and Hermit (cards that add a lot of complexity to the kingdom on their own), Procession and Band of Misfits (cards with extremely complicated interactions with other cards), and a lot of stuff that modify a lot of the basic game mechanics (Shelters, Knights, Ruins, Rats, etc). It's not exactly a casual-friendly expansion at all, so there's little point in making Rebuild casual-friendlier.

I've already talked about Possession.

Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand (and to a lesser extent Saboteur, etc.) get a pass because Attacks have to ramp up in complexity faster than other cards. There are really only 4 ways to do an attack, yet about 1 out of every 6 Kingdom cards is an Attack card in order to keep the interaction level of the game as high as it is. That means that in order to keep making unique-seeming Attacks, new Attacks have to get more complex. On top of that, wording even the simplest trashing attacks takes a bunch of text. So there's that.

Young Witch, Urchin, and Hermit have some of their text under the line. That matters. Setup text especially is not something that players have to worry about during the game.

Concerning Procession and Band of Misfits: I do not care how many complex interactions a card has. Or rather, I do care, but if a card can be worded simply and yet have lots of strategic combos with other cards, that's a huge mark in its favor.

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:13:26 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #158 on: December 17, 2013, 12:14:52 pm »
0

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #159 on: December 17, 2013, 12:34:02 pm »
0

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #160 on: December 17, 2013, 12:35:53 pm »
0

Seven lines, and the lines could be longer if necessary. The Finnish Possession, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand and Young Witch each have nine lines (Young Witch even has a "_____________" in addition to that), so it's definitely possible to fit more text there.

And in the same expansion, we have Urchin and Hermit (cards that add a lot of complexity to the kingdom on their own), Procession and Band of Misfits (cards with extremely complicated interactions with other cards), and a lot of stuff that modify a lot of the basic game mechanics (Shelters, Knights, Ruins, Rats, etc). It's not exactly a casual-friendly expansion at all, so there's little point in making Rebuild casual-friendlier.

I've already talked about Possession.

Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand (and to a lesser extent Saboteur, etc.) get a pass because Attacks have to ramp up in complexity faster than other cards. There are really only 4 ways to do an attack, yet about 1 out of every 6 Kingdom cards is an Attack card in order to keep the interaction level of the game as high as it is. That means that in order to keep making unique-seeming Attacks, new Attacks have to get more complex. On top of that, wording even the simplest trashing attacks takes a bunch of text. So there's that.

Young Witch, Urchin, and Hermit have some of their text under the line. That matters. Setup text especially is not something that players have to worry about during the game.

I do not care how many complex interactions a card has. Or rather, I do care, but if a card can be worded simply and yet have lots of strategic combos with other cards, that's a huge mark in its favor.

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
So the card being an Attack is a good reason for complexity, because Attack cards get boring quickly unless they are complex. I agree. What I don't understand is why "complex Rebuilds are much more balanced and interesting than simple Rebuilds" is a bad reason for complexity.

When I mentioned Young Witch, the point was to point out that it is possible to fit more text in a physical card, though I suppose Young Witch still does the exact same thing as Urchin and Hermit when it comes to increasing the complexity of the kingdom, because just like Urchin and Hermit, Young Witch adds a completely new card that you still have to read after you're done reading Young Witch.

I think you missed my point about the complex interactions. I agree that having lots of strategic combos with other cards is a good thing. When a single expansion causes 50% of the threads on the first page of the Rules Questions forum, even though it isn't even the most recent expansion anymore, it's a bad thing (a minor one IMO), but more importantly a sign of being not very suitable for beginners anyway.
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AJD

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #161 on: December 17, 2013, 12:54:11 pm »
+1

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #162 on: December 17, 2013, 01:48:51 pm »
+1

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #163 on: December 17, 2013, 02:02:43 pm »
0

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

Are you really not sure which way is better?  :o
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #164 on: December 17, 2013, 02:06:54 pm »
0

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

Are you really not sure which way is better?  :o

Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard." While the intent of the card is clear and obvious, the literal rules aspect gets muddled when you don't need to think at all about what it means to "name a card."
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #165 on: December 17, 2013, 02:09:46 pm »
0

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

Are you really not sure which way is better?  :o

Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard."
And you can just design a new card game on the spot in case you want to make sure.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #166 on: December 17, 2013, 02:10:55 pm »
0

So the card being an Attack is a good reason for complexity, because Attack cards get boring quickly unless they are complex. I agree. What I don't understand is why "complex Rebuilds are much more balanced and interesting than simple Rebuilds" is a bad reason for complexity.

Because rather than patch an already complex card with further complexity, that card could be scrapped entirely and replaced with a simpler card. If we scrap an Attack card, chances are good that any similar replacement card would be similarly complex.

I think you missed my point about the complex interactions. I agree that having lots of strategic combos with other cards is a good thing. When a single expansion causes 50% of the threads on the first page of the Rules Questions forum, even though it isn't even the most recent expansion anymore, it's a bad thing (a minor one IMO), but more importantly a sign of being not very suitable for beginners anyway.

That's a bit of a copout in my opinion. Even if a set isn't the best set for beginners, cards should at least be as easy to parse as possible. Rebuild has an awkward effect, is what it boils down to.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #167 on: December 17, 2013, 02:26:11 pm »
+1

Since the boring part with Rebuild is buying Duchies with 5, here is a radical tweak for Rebuild:

When this is in the supply it's not possible to buy Duchy.

(Other Duchy gaining is allowed. In some Kingdoms there would be a Duchy race as we know it anyway, because of Border Village for example, but that would only be sometimes.) I think that usually you wouldn't just get Rebuilds for 5, but when you now would get a Duchy instead you might get something to play your Rebuilds more often, or to attack, or to get some economy for Provinces. More variation.

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #168 on: December 17, 2013, 02:40:41 pm »
+1

I think that would be interesting, maybe a little too inelegant though?
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #169 on: December 17, 2013, 02:48:08 pm »
0

Since the boring part with Rebuild is buying Duchies with 5, here is a radical tweak for Rebuild:

When this is in the supply it's not possible to buy Duchy.

(Other Duchy gaining is allowed. In some Kingdoms there would be a Duchy race as we know it anyway, because of Border Village for example, but that would only be sometimes.) I think that usually you wouldn't just get Rebuilds for 5, but when you now would get a Duchy instead you might get something to play your Rebuilds more often, or to attack, or to get some economy for Provinces. More variation.

I think that would be interesting, maybe a little too inelegant though?

Yeah, it's kind of a sledgehammer of a fix. A unique and interesting sledgehammer for sure, but still. Wham!

Also, you'd almost need a component to put on the Duchy pile to remind you that you can't buy them this game.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #170 on: December 17, 2013, 03:08:07 pm »
0

And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

Are you really not sure which way is better?  :o

Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard." While the intent of the card is clear and obvious, the literal rules aspect gets muddled when you don't need to think at all about what it means to "name a card."

I mean, really I guess what this amounts to is that for gameplay purposes, "name a card" actually means "you may name a card".
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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #171 on: December 17, 2013, 03:09:38 pm »
+5

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

This helps explain why if Rebuild says "name a card", then it should not restrict the naming to Victory cards.  Let's suppose that we are new players, and not yet entirely familiar with the cards.  I play Rebuild and name Hovel.  You tell me that it isn't allowed since Hovel isn't a Victory card.  I insist that Hovel is a Victory card (probably under the assumption that the shelters are like the estates).  How do we resolve this dispute?  Our Hovels may both be in our decks where we can't check.

On a side note, if I am playing with werothegreat and he names "dooky", I am totally going to make him stop and trash that Duchy, because he did not name Duchy.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #172 on: December 17, 2013, 03:13:48 pm »
0

"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #173 on: December 17, 2013, 03:15:26 pm »
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.

It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #174 on: December 17, 2013, 03:33:09 pm »
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.

It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.

But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.
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