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Author Topic: Donald X on Rebuild  (Read 66556 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2013, 05:51:20 pm »
0

I don't have any experience with "Build" yet, but I can theorize a bit.

Although you could use it to turn Golds into Provinces (and sometimes should), it's pretty clearly not what the card is for. The gained card goes on your deck, so it's mostly for turning Estates, Silvers, etc. into useful cards on your deck. Might you turn up 3 Coppers? Sure. But then at least you get to discard 2 of them and if there's a useful $2 card available, that's actually way better than Remodeling that same Copper because you're not killing your current turn's buying power as much.

I'm guessing it was unpopular because it has the "good cards go by" issue and because it's hard to have a good plan for it. Which does kind of suck. It seems universally useful in the same way that Pillage does and—like Pillage—I don't really know when to buy it and when not to. When there are good $2 cards out, I guess; that's when I'd buy Build. ;)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:52:23 pm by LastFootnote »
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AJD

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2013, 07:30:23 pm »
+3

I always have this idea to design a TfB card which gives a benefit based on what the card that you trash does (rather than just the cost or type of the card), but the result always comes out looking like Procession.

Ah, like Counterfeit, you mean?
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PSGarak

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2013, 10:09:52 pm »
+2

One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.

However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #128 on: December 16, 2013, 10:41:51 pm »
+2

One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.

However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.

I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling.  But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them.  For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA.  Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser."  But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #129 on: December 16, 2013, 10:48:36 pm »
+2

One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.

However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.

I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling.  But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them.  For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA.  Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser."  But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?

To expound on this a bit more, there are many conceptual niches that seem obvious, but may never be filled because there is no good card to fill them. They are "bad ideas". Reactions that hurt the attacker, for instance. It's possible that a Victory-to-Victory remodel is such a concept.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #130 on: December 16, 2013, 11:32:20 pm »
+2

Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?

Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #131 on: December 16, 2013, 11:35:33 pm »
+4

One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.

However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.

I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling.  But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them.  For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA.  Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser."  But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?

To expound on this a bit more, there are many conceptual niches that seem obvious, but may never be filled because there is no good card to fill them. They are "bad ideas". Reactions that hurt the attacker, for instance. It's possible that a Victory-to-Victory remodel is such a concept.

And in the absence of a compelling counterexample, a  Victory-to-Victory remodel seems like a prime candidate.  It would be pretty much useless on most boards if it couldn't at least perform Estate -> Duchy -> Province.  But once that it possible, it becomes dangerously close to a single card strategy. 

Most strategies consist of:  1) build up your deck, 2) score lots of points.  (There is sometimes a third objective: 3) run-out piles.)  Part of the beauty of Dominion is that objectives 1 and 2 are in tension.  Not only in practice when devising an effective strategy, but also in the game design sense that (at least for most people) objective 1 is more fun while objective 2 is ultimately what determines the winner.  Any card which threatens to quickly skip over objective 1 and straight to objective 2 is likely to simultaneously suck the fun out of the game for the majority of players who are not interested in the subtle, fine detail of tactics.
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Puddleglumm

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #132 on: December 16, 2013, 11:44:07 pm »
0

Most strategies consist of:  1) build up your deck, 2) score lots of points.  (There is sometimes a third objective: 3) run-out piles.)  Part of the beauty of Dominion is that objectives 1 and 2 are in tension.  Not only in practice when devising an effective strategy, but also in the game design sense that (at least for most people) objective 1 is more fun while objective 2 is ultimately what determines the winner.  Any card which threatens to quickly skip over objective 1 and straight to objective 2 is likely to simultaneously suck the fun out of the game for the majority of players who are not interested in the subtle, fine detail of tactics.
Great observation.
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blueblimp

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2013, 01:54:26 am »
0

One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.

However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.

I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling.  But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them.  For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA.  Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser."  But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?

To expound on this a bit more, there are many conceptual niches that seem obvious, but may never be filled because there is no good card to fill them. They are "bad ideas". Reactions that hurt the attacker, for instance. It's possible that a Victory-to-Victory remodel is such a concept.

And in the absence of a compelling counterexample, a  Victory-to-Victory remodel seems like a prime candidate.  It would be pretty much useless on most boards if it couldn't at least perform Estate -> Duchy -> Province.  But once that it possible, it becomes dangerously close to a single card strategy. 

Most strategies consist of:  1) build up your deck, 2) score lots of points.  (There is sometimes a third objective: 3) run-out piles.)  Part of the beauty of Dominion is that objectives 1 and 2 are in tension.  Not only in practice when devising an effective strategy, but also in the game design sense that (at least for most people) objective 1 is more fun while objective 2 is ultimately what determines the winner.  Any card which threatens to quickly skip over objective 1 and straight to objective 2 is likely to simultaneously suck the fun out of the game for the majority of players who are not interested in the subtle, fine detail of tactics.
I agree with your second paragraph, but isn't the main reason that Rebuild skips over the deck-building phase the fact that it digs for a victory card instead of using one that's in hand already? If it needed to be connected with a victory card the hard way, it'd be much more engine friendly. Though I assume that's the version Donald X thought of first and probably rejected it due to being weak or frustrating.
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2013, 02:23:08 am »
0

I don't find Baron weak or frustrating.

I mean, you just get something back if it doesn't hit.
Granted, you may not always want an extra Estate, but it would have the same "problems".
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dondon151

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #135 on: December 17, 2013, 02:47:06 am »
0

Davio brings up a good point. A from-hand Rebuild with a bonus if it fails (it doesn't even have to be a relatively weak bonus) might be a more interesting card.
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PSGarak

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #136 on: December 17, 2013, 02:54:56 am »
+1

In fact, gaining an Estate just like Baron would make the most sense. Conceptually, you're rebuilding Nothing (worth $0) into an Estate.
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #137 on: December 17, 2013, 02:57:50 am »
0

Well, in that case, you're just building, without the re-.

More than one card gains a Duchy (Count, Transmute), so I don't see a problem with more than one card gaining an Estate.
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Schlippy

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #138 on: December 17, 2013, 07:46:50 am »
0

It should gain the estate into your hand to make it more interesting in engines imho.
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #139 on: December 17, 2013, 07:54:21 am »
+1

Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?

Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea - you would have on average 5 uses of Rebuild per game assuming your opponent mirrors you and there's no Throne Room/Rogue/etc, so the Rebuild strategy would get a lot weaker (but still doable, especially if it's not mirrored) while the card could still be used for other purposes. The card might need to be stronger than your suggestion, though; that's very similar to Island but a lot worse.
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #140 on: December 17, 2013, 07:55:58 am »
+1

It should gain the estate into your hand to make it more interesting in engines imho.
So this is where we're at?

Rebuild - $5

+1 Action

You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it. If you don't, gain an Estate, putting it in your hand.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #141 on: December 17, 2013, 08:47:32 am »
0

At that point I'd make all the gains go to hand. For symmetry if nothing else.
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brokoli

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #142 on: December 17, 2013, 09:01:43 am »
0

Or we could just keep Rebuild's effect but adding a weak on-gain and / or on-trash effect.
We know that cursers and Looters hurts a little bit Rebuild but not too much. So, what about : "when you gain this, gain a ruin", or to make rebuild weaker against Saboteur / Knights : "when you trash this, gain a curse".

It would still make the Rebuild strategy very powerful, but less often at least.

Because as I said, I would not like changing the whole card. I want to have a rebuild that is exactly the same, just less often dominant.
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #143 on: December 17, 2013, 09:04:54 am »
0

Oh well, playing with Shelters does mitigate a lot of Rebuild's power.

I recently played a game in which my opponent and me both ignored it, just because we had shelters and other $5's to get.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #144 on: December 17, 2013, 09:28:39 am »
0

It should gain the estate into your hand to make it more interesting in engines imho.
So this is where we're at?

Rebuild - $5

+1 Action

You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it. If you don't, gain an Estate, putting it in your hand.

Why does no one listen to me?  It's like you don't even care anymore...

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9976.msg325161#msg325161
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #145 on: December 17, 2013, 09:35:34 am »
+1

Rebuild's real power is in the fact that it gets to sift the deck until it finds a target.

So, possible nerfs are to either A)remove the targeting aspect so that it sifts until it finds the first VP or to B)remove the unlimited sifting aspect so that it can only reveal X number of cards from the deck.

A)
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 more than it.

The first nerf option retains the unusually strong unlimited sifting which negates attacks but introduces the luck factor of hitting VPs you'd rather not hit. Removing the selectivity of the card's effect should go a long ways towards urging the player to seriously consider whether or not he should play the card on this particular turn. It presents way more tactical and strategic implementation but still overcomes any attacks. In this way it can keep its +1 action.


B)
Name a card. Reveal X cards from the top of your deck. If you revealed a Victory card that is not the named card trash it and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 more than it. Discard the other cards.

The second nerf option retains the unusually strong VP targeting so that it can be played with no fear of hitting the wrong VP target but presents the very real possibility that the revealed cards will not actually produce a viable target. Since the drawn cards are discarded the +1 action is not overly strong in this case either. This option opens up a real weakness to deck junking attacks but really counters attacks such as Rabble and Bureaucrat.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:04:30 am by pingpongsam »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #146 on: December 17, 2013, 10:13:12 am »
+2

What if it simply got rid of the "up to"? It would play differently with Alt-VP; otherwise the only difference would be that you can't turn Provinces into Provinces to accelerate the end.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #147 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:33 am »
0

Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.
As I said above, Terminal Rebuild is weak enough that the "boring" Rebuild-BM is rarely the optimal strategy, which should increase the space of viable "interesting" strategies (though it does kill the Rebuild+TerminalAction-BM strategies).

But if you prefer to keep all of Rebuild's current interactions intact, I'd suggest making the card "semi-terminal" by using an "inverse Cultist clause":

Rebuild, $5
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.
You may play an Action from your hand other than Rebuild.


This would weaken Rebuild-BM and keep it weaker than Rebuild/Scavenger etc., so it's "strictly more interesting" than the published version IMO. It also has a curious synergy with every non-terminal Action card since these allow you to still play several Rebuilds in one turn.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #148 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:42 am »
0

What if it simply got rid of the "up to"? It would play differently with Alt-VP; otherwise the only difference would be that you can't turn Provinces into Provinces to accelerate the end.

The better fix there is to stipulate that you have to gain a different card than the one you trashed. I'm not convinced it would make much difference either way.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #149 on: December 17, 2013, 10:34:53 am »
0

Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?

Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.

This is actually surprisingly close to the card I submitted to the Treasure Chest Design Contest for Intrigue:

Quote
Visiting Dignitary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary and a Victory card costing up to $6.

I like a combination of the two that looks something like this:

Visiting Rebuilder
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary. Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 Coins more than it.
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