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Author Topic: Donald X on Rebuild  (Read 61840 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #200 on: December 22, 2013, 06:27:19 am »
0

I like the top deck Remodel since it gives you a way of remodelling something that's "the same card" multiple times in the same turn, which doesn't really exist in Dominion at the moment.
Actually I've done this already a few times with Upgrade-draw-deck-engines. Especially combined with KC.

It's a nice feeling.
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rrwoods

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #201 on: December 23, 2013, 04:32:09 am »
+1

What about something as simple as adding ", putting it on your deck" to the gain effect? It's a tad weaker, and also flavorful. Though with multiple rebuilds in hand it may be better or worse, I'm not sure.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #202 on: December 23, 2013, 11:19:22 am »
0

Ironically, I think Rebuild and Tournament are kind of interesting combined sometimes.  Here's a game from today:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131223/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1387814370406.txt

Thought I was dead when he got 5/2, but gaining Duchies and Princess really helps against a Rebuild-focused player.  In fact, this game does do a good job illustrating one of Rebuild's few crippling weaknesses--you can't gain any points sometimes, so falling behind kills you.
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dominion123

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #203 on: December 26, 2013, 12:39:35 pm »
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"

Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.

I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
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Awaclus

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #204 on: December 26, 2013, 02:25:38 pm »
+1

Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"

Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.

I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
True that there are times when it is actually useful, but are there any times when it is actually more useful than something else you could be getting with a buy?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #205 on: December 26, 2013, 02:30:19 pm »
0

Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"

Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.

I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
True that there are times when it is actually useful, but are there any times when it is actually more useful than something else you could be getting with a buy?

I believe the answer is yes, but those times are so rare that Scout isn't worth the card slot it takes up.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #206 on: December 26, 2013, 02:36:55 pm »
0

Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"

Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.

I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
True that there are times when it is actually useful, but are there any times when it is actually more useful than something else you could be getting with a buy?

I believe the answer is yes, but those times are so rare that Scout isn't worth the card slot it takes up.
I agree. I think I've bought Scout on Goko in one of the ~1500 games I've played.
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Davio

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #207 on: December 27, 2013, 06:22:08 am »
+3

What Scout does best is making you appreciate Silvers. :)
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #208 on: December 28, 2013, 12:21:21 am »
+1

Bought 2 scouts in a Dukes + Bureaucrat game yesterday
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #209 on: January 02, 2014, 06:10:06 pm »
+1

Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.

But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #210 on: January 02, 2014, 06:42:05 pm »
+3

Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.

But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.
in general, the more time the engine player has to build, the better her prospects.  more vp in the supply makes it possible to beat a province deficit if you play longer and vice versa.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #211 on: January 02, 2014, 06:53:21 pm »
0

Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.

But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.
in general, the more time the engine player has to build, the better her prospects.  more vp in the supply makes it possible to beat a province deficit if you play longer and vice versa.

I would add also that the extra Duchies only help the Rebuild player because he needs them to make up for the Provinces he can't trash from the supply anymore.  It is no longer the case that the Rebuild player can shut out the engine player by quickly grabbing VP and trashing down the supply until he has half the available VP; he must actually keep buying Duchies and Rebuilding them until he works his way up to 43 VP, which is not easy.
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KingZog3

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2014, 10:27:06 pm »
+1

What Scout does best is making you appreciate Silvers. :)

I ran a Scout-Market-Harem engine. It worked amazing, and the reordering helped with the cantrips and picking up my Harems. Only time I've better bought it and thought it deserved to exist.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:28:08 pm by KingZog3 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #213 on: January 02, 2014, 11:01:19 pm »
0

What Scout does best is making you appreciate Silvers. :)

I ran a Scout-Market-Harem engine. It worked amazing, and the reordering helped with the cantrips and picking up my Harems. Only time I've better bought it and thought it deserved to exist.

For me it's Scout/Mystic. That's a fun combo.
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Asper

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #214 on: January 04, 2014, 08:50:41 am »
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Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:

Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.

Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 10:34:31 am by Asper »
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serakfalcon

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #215 on: January 04, 2014, 09:34:53 am »
0

Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:

Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.

That would actually combo quite well with Scout
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flies

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #216 on: January 06, 2014, 01:12:37 pm »
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Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:

Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.

Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.

took me a minute to get it, but this seems worth testing.  Prior to having duchies, you'd have to get very lucky to go estate-> duchy if your deck is just copper, silver, rebuild, estate (drawing all three prior to estate).  Once you've got duchies, it's a bit better, but still weak.  So you'd have to buy stuff besides rebuild, silver, duchy, in order to make the deck work.  And that's the thing that rebuild needs.

(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well.  I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree.  I'm petulant about it, tho.)
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #217 on: January 06, 2014, 01:53:42 pm »
0

Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:

Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.

Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.

took me a minute to get it, but this seems worth testing.  Prior to having duchies, you'd have to get very lucky to go estate-> duchy if your deck is just copper, silver, rebuild, estate (drawing all three prior to estate).  Once you've got duchies, it's a bit better, but still weak.  So you'd have to buy stuff besides rebuild, silver, duchy, in order to make the deck work.  And that's the thing that rebuild needs.

The trashed VP card also counts as one of the revealed cards, as I understand the card text; so it works as a normal Rebuild just by revealing Copper and Silver before the VP card. In Shelters games or with Looters, it becomes even easier to use Rebuild as usual.
Therefore I think this is far too strong (probably stronger than the printed card); it gives a very good chance to go e.g. Gardens->Province, and a realistic chance to directly rebuild Estates into Provinces if you have 4+ different non-VP cards in your deck (you just need to buy 2-3 different support cards for Rebuild even if there's no Shelters/Looters; you'd sometimes do this with the original Rebuild anyway).

The idea is interesting, but the card should at least say "less than" to weaken it; probably it needs even more nerfing.

(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well.  I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree.  I'm petulant about it, tho.)
I agree; but I think it would need to cost $5 to become reasonably weak. Actually I considered just this variant as a fan card before Dark Ages was released; back then I thought it might still be too strong at $5.
I wonder why Donald didn't consider this version; it'd be easier and more interesting than the printed card...


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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #218 on: January 06, 2014, 03:33:41 pm »
0

(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well.  I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree.  I'm petulant about it, tho.)

Just to clarify, your version is this, correct?

Quote
Rebuild
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.

I don't find that version terribly interesting compared to Expand, etc. It's potentially weaker than Rebuild as it currently exists, but it may have the same issue of bypassing the deck build-up phase of the game. Maybe I'm wrong, since you're incentivized to get a larger handsize. Still, I'd rather have a more interesting card than a cheap Expand that only works on Victory cards.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #219 on: January 06, 2014, 03:51:10 pm »
0

Just to clarify, your version is this, correct?

Quote
Rebuild
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.

I don't find that version terribly interesting compared to Expand, etc. It's potentially weaker than Rebuild as it currently exists, but it may have the same issue of bypassing the deck build-up phase of the game. Maybe I'm wrong, since you're incentivized to get a larger handsize. Still, I'd rather have a more interesting card than a cheap Expand that only works on Victory cards.

I think if you add the "if you do" clause, and then have it do something else if you don't (gain Estate?), that helps this version.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #220 on: January 21, 2014, 03:27:23 pm »
+1

Idea (from other threads):

Rebuild
Action - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $5 more than it. (Put it on top of your deck?)

Thematically, it can turn ruins into their non Ruined counterparts (unless your Market was Grand or your Village was on the Border). It looks very powerful but it's very Kingdom dependent. It could be just $3 to fit in with other cards but for many kingdoms it makes no difference and I like how ridiculous it looks.

The topdecking makes it more generally useful, especially with Actions, but makes it worse for Victory cards.

Also it's a trasher that's rubbish at trashing Curses. That's... something.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #221 on: January 21, 2014, 04:32:05 pm »
0

Here's the version I'm going to be using in place of the published version (haven't gotten around to trying it yet).

Rebuild
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Look at the top three cards of your deck. Trash one and discard the others. Then gain a card costing up to $2 more than the card you trashed. You may put the gained card on top of your deck.

...it's kindof a cross between the published version and the outtake version that Last Footnote posted in the other thread ( http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9978.0 ).  I like it being nonterminal.

I kindof like NoMoreFun's version in the previous post too. It's different enough that maybe I'll rename it and use it also.  I think it should still cost $5 despite the fact that it doesn't work with curses (You can already turn a silver into a hoard or a harem with mine, putting it back into your hand. But this can also turn an estate into a Harem/Fairgrounds or a ruins into a Lab/Wharf/Minion/Stables.)

NoMoreFun

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #222 on: January 21, 2014, 04:59:06 pm »
0


I kindof like NoMoreFun's version in the previous post too. It's different enough that maybe I'll rename it and use it also.  I think it should still cost $5 despite the fact that it doesn't work with curses (You can already turn a silver into a hoard or a harem with mine, putting it back into your hand. But this can also turn an estate into a Harem/Fairgrounds or a ruins into a Lab/Wharf/Minion/Stables.)

If you find yourself frequently able to use $4 and $5 upgrade, then let me know and try dropping it to $3. I thought $5 was fine because it makes the card a straight up counter to Ruins, and while there are a few very strong combos (Great Hall->Province comes to mind), it largely won't make too much of a difference. However $3 would be fine and more in line with existing cards (and you'd still get the Ruined Village->Village theming)
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