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Author Topic: Donald X on Rebuild  (Read 61669 times)

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Watno

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Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 10, 2013, 07:05:56 pm »
+24

I found this on BGG and I thought people might be interested in it: Donald X talks about Rebuild on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365

Quote
In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.

For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.

Too bad, I had a distant hope there was something people hadn't found yet.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 07:15:20 pm »
0

I found this on BGG and I thought people might be interested in it: Donald X talks about Rebuild on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365

Quote
In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.

For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.

Too bad, I had a distant hope there was something people hadn't found yet.

"The card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is"

I wonder what exactly he means by this. Personally, "interesting" isn't what comes to mind when I think of rebuild
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heron

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 07:17:33 pm »
+1

I found this on BGG and I thought people might be interested in it: Donald X talks about Rebuild on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365

Quote
In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.

For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.

Too bad, I had a distant hope there was something people hadn't found yet.

"The card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is"

I wonder what exactly he means by this. Personally, "interesting" isn't what comes to mind when I think of rebuild

He means that powerful cards should be interesting and it is unfortunate that rebuild is not interesting.
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AHoppy

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 07:19:34 pm »
0

Ah, but the first time I read the card, I found it very interesting.  I thought that you might be able to build a strategy around just that one card, but I felt like it would be too slow.  I didn't realize how powerful it was by itself until I came on here and read what other people were thinking about it.  So when I first saw the card, I thought it was interesting and potentially very hard to use effectively.  I was wrong, but still, I see where DXV is coming from

heron

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 07:23:20 pm »
+1

I guess I phrased that poorly.
Rebuild is an interesting card; the amount of stuff we have written about rebuild proves this, but rebuild gets dull after a few games since you always use a similar strategy.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 07:24:27 pm »
0

I guess I phrased that poorly.
Rebuild is an interesting card; the amount of stuff we have written about rebuild proves this, but rebuild gets dull after a few games since you always use a similar strategy.

Gotcha,

Thanks for elucidating that sentence for me
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LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 07:48:27 pm »
+2

Yeah, I was part of that thread. I think Donald's next post in the thread is also very interesting.

Quote
Evaulating / testing alternate versions of Rebuild is beyond the scope for me. As always feel free to play whatever variants you want. You may find people willing to simulate different Rebuild variants at dominionstrategy.com.

I guess I can tell you that, if at the last minute I had thought oops Rebuild is too strong, I probably would have put in a different card that had gone by the name Rebuild - cost $4, Remodel one of the top three cards of your deck (discard the other two), putting the gained card on top of your deck. That card got a lot of testing and was fine, there was just a point when it seemed like people didn't like it enough and probably I could do better.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 07:54:46 pm »
+1

I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 08:01:25 pm »
0

I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.

Agreed. Rebuild would have been a disaster in Base or Intrigue, just because it has a tendency to render the rest of the board irrelevant, but by the time Dark Ages came around there were enough cards that it didn't ruin the game simply because it doesn't show up that much. When it does, as with ambassador, the execution is crucial even if the card itself is a must buy.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 08:42:36 pm »
+5

I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.

Agreed. Rebuild would have been a disaster in Base or Intrigue, just because it has a tendency to render the rest of the board irrelevant, but by the time Dark Ages came around there were enough cards that it didn't ruin the game simply because it doesn't show up that much. When it does, as with ambassador, the execution is crucial even if the card itself is a must buy.

I disagree. The thing that makes Rebuild uninteresting for me is that it's a one-card strategy. $5 is the most important cost in Dominion. In a Rebuild strategy, all your $5 buys are tied up on Rebuilds and Duchies. The fact that there are over 200 cards now and you therefore see Rebuild less does not make it more bearable.

Ambassador is like Chapel. The other cards on the board matter a lot. It's even skippable in some games.
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blueblimp

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 08:53:06 pm »
0

Exactly. It's like IGG, except worse, because at least with IGG there's still VP left to buy if you can handle the incoming curses. With Rebuild, you can't play any strategy that ramps up slower than it (because there'll be no VP left to buy by the time you're ramped up) and there are precious few strategies that ramp up faster than it.
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heron

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 09:07:33 pm »
0

I wonder how much a ghost ship engine slows down rebuild.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 09:16:34 pm »
+3

I wonder how much a ghost ship engine slows down rebuild.

Barely any, you can put exactly the victory card you need on top.  If you aren't buying anything great this turn, you can put the money on top and discard.  I wouldn't be surprised if you actually would speed up rebuild with ghost ship.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

markusin

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 09:22:05 pm »
0

I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.

Agreed. Rebuild would have been a disaster in Base or Intrigue, just because it has a tendency to render the rest of the board irrelevant, but by the time Dark Ages came around there were enough cards that it didn't ruin the game simply because it doesn't show up that much. When it does, as with ambassador, the execution is crucial even if the card itself is a must buy.

I disagree. The thing that makes Rebuild uninteresting for me is that it's a one-card strategy. $5 is the most important cost in Dominion. In a Rebuild strategy, all your $5 buys are tied up on Rebuilds and Duchies. The fact that there are over 200 cards now and you therefore see Rebuild less does not make it more bearable.

Ambassador is like Chapel. The other cards on the board matter a lot. It's even skippable in some games.
This is exactly what I was pondering earlier today. Most of the top cards, like Ambassador, Masquerade, Goons and the like, still need you to use the rest of the board in order to be effective. Rebuild does not, or not much anyway. Rebuild itself is the strategy that other cards can augment. Still, there are subtleties and important decisions on that the players have to make that determine the winner of a Rebuild game that go beyond simple shuffle luck.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 09:57:53 pm »
+3

"You may find people willing to simulate different Rebuild variants at dominionstrategy.com."

Well, at least he doesn't seem to hate us. 
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 10:49:59 pm »
+4

"You may find people willing to simulate different Rebuild variants at dominionstrategy.com."

Well, at least he doesn't seem to hate us.

If only he'd post here again once in a while.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:18:02 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 10:52:53 pm »
+3

It saddens me. After all this time, I still hoped that Dominion-even with Rebuild-could be trumpeted as a well-balanced game. It's still delightfully fun, but if we really didn't miss any hidden playtesting intricacy, and Rebuild really is as unbalanced as it looks, that's trouble.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2013, 11:03:08 pm »
+7

It saddens me. After all this time, I still hoped that Dominion-even with Rebuild-could be trumpeted as a well-balanced game. It's still delightfully fun, but if we really didn't miss any hidden playtesting intricacy, and Rebuild really is as unbalanced as it looks, that's trouble.

I think another quote from him in that thread is important:

"Rebuild was the last card I added to Dark Ages, and Dark Ages was finished after Guilds. So it was the last card. The playtesting group was drifting off, and for sure it got less playtesting than anything else."

So the least-playtested card available is overpowered.  Out of 200+ cards, I'd say that's a good track record.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2013, 11:04:32 pm »
+9

Imagine a Rebuild where instead of trashing a VP card you returned one to the supply gaining one costing $3 higher.  Has that option been discussed before?
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2013, 11:33:36 pm »
0

I think a variant that has been discussed before was having one that doesn't have +1 Action on it.

I know, that's what Donald tried originally, but that guy's analysis seems to suggest it's better than having it.  His analysis showed that it was mediocre-average in power for $5.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

LastFootnote

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 12:28:14 am »
+4

I think a variant that has been discussed before was having one that doesn't have +1 Action on it.

I know, that's what Donald tried originally, but that guy's analysis seems to suggest it's better than having it.  His analysis showed that it was mediocre-average in power for $5.

Power isn't the sole issue, though. You'll still want to buy Duchies to fuel it. That's really what kills the card. I think I'm going to use my "Dominion time machine" and playtest this next time I play some IRL Dominion:



Maybe some playtesters found it boring, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 11:32:51 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 03:05:27 am »
+3

I just houseruled Rebuild to cost $6, and I think it works better.  It's still good, but it's harder to build your whole strategy around the one card that way.

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2013, 08:56:28 am »
+4

Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2013, 09:00:45 am »
+9

Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"

Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2013, 09:40:49 am »
0

So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
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