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[Showdown35]

I was driving home from work and had this pretty crazy idea for a card that could play actions from the trash (a Necromancer was my original idea). I was thinking about an interesting way for it to put good actions in the trash so it could play them later, but I didn't want it to be an Attack, or to take good Actions out of players decks.  I also wanted it to be fun to play over and over, but I didn't want it to burn through supply piles by sending them to the trash every play, then an idea hit me! Borrowing a Dark Ages mechanic, I could make a secondary card that did the trashing, and leave the Animator to do it's animating over and over without attacking or trashing too many cards.

I just threw together these mock ups pretty quick, and I'm very tired right now, so I'm sure they need some serious work, but I just wanted to get the idea out there before I forgot it.

Without further ado, here's my idea:

Forbidden Tome
$6 - Action
Choose an Action card from the trash. Play it, then return it to the trash.
If you did not play an Action card from the trash, +2 Cards, +1 Action, and trash this.
------------
When you gain this, gain a Dark Acolyte from the Dark Acolyte pile; putting it on your deck.


Dark Acolyte
$0* - Action
+1 Card, +1 Action.
Choose an Action card with 5 or more copies in it's Supply pile.
If there are no copies of it in the trash, trash a copy of it from that Supply pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)


I await some interesting discussion...

[Aidan Millow]

I feel with card designs applying K.I.S.S principle is usually advisable wherever possible. Here you can quite comfortably make one card that does almost the same thing.

Other issues:

• How do you want this to work with things like highway? If you want to let it not be terrible with them then you need to have them stay in play until the cleanup step.
• Return to the trash is rather strange wording in terms of dominion standardisation. How averse are you to it trashing things?

Here's a single card rework that addresses these issues while trying to stay true to the idea I think you were working with to start with.

Forbidden Tome
$6-Action
Choose one: Play an action card from the trash, trash it in the clean-up step; or +1 Card, +1 Action and trash an action card from the supply if no copies of it are in the trash.

[Davio]

So how do you deal with Scheme, Alchemist and Treasury?

I would word it like this:

Forbidden Tome
$6 - Action
Choose an Action card in the trash other than Forbidden Tome, play this as if it were that card.
This is that card until it leaves play.
If there are no Action cards in the trash, +3 cards, +1 Action and trash this card.


This makes it more like Band of Misfits. Now BoM is an awkward card at times, but at least we have rulings for it.

[Showdown35]

So how do you deal with Scheme, Alchemist and Treasury?

I would word it like this:

Forbidden Tome
$6 - Action
Choose an Action card in the trash other than Forbidden Tome, play this as if it were that card.
This is that card until it leaves play.
If there are no Action cards in the trash, +3 cards, +1 Action and trash this card.

This makes it more like Band of Misfits. Now BoM is an awkward card at times, but at least we have rulings for it.

I consisered wording it like band of Misfits, but I felt like it wouldn't be as fun to play if it just acted as a copy. There would be much more flavor and fun actually taking a card from the trash and playing it. Also I didn't want you to be able to put Forbidden Tome on your deck by copying a Scheme or Alchemist, which is also why I added the return to trash line. I coukd change it to read like Procession; play it then trash it, that's probably the best wording. I worded it "return to trash" because I wanted to be clear that you don't actually gain the card. You just get to play it without ever owning it.  I suppose the Dark Acolytes text doesn't gain you th card either, and I still used "trash it". Rules wise, can you trash a card you haven't gained? I know cars like Theif tell the oppenent to trash one of their treasures, you don't get to trash someone else's card. I'm at work and can't look through other cards right now, is there any card that tells you to trash a card that is not owned by you?

As for making this a two card dealy, I wanted it to make it a little more work to use. Putting it all on one card seemed too easy to me. Yes, its usually good to k.i.s.s, but in this case, I felt it needed to be a little more complex to raise something from the dead, otherwise its just a graverobber.  But I didn't think having the two cards was that complex anyway, since they are both fairly easy to understand, just need the right wording to work within the rules.

[eHalcyon]

You said that one problem you wanted to address was the burning of supply piles.  Using two cards instead of one doesn't fix that though -- your Dark Acolyte still empties piles.  The restriction you put on it (5 or more copies in supply, none in trash) help address the issue, but that doesn't warrant a separate card.

I don't think there are any conflicts with an instruction to trash a card that hasn't been gained.  "Trash a card from the Supply" is clear.

You said you made it two cards because one card is too easy and you wanted to "make it a little more work to use".  But your duo actually makes it easier to use!  Dark Acolyte gets top-decked when you gain it via Forbidden Tome, so you almost guarantee that you get to play it before Forbidden Tome.  Not only that, Dark Acolyte is a cantrip so it doesn't even slow down your deck.
 
Really, a simpler solution would probably be to put "trash an action card from the supply" as an on-gain effect on Forbidden Tome.

Your implementation has another issue -- tracking.  If you play a card from the trash and then immediately return it, that has odd implications for several other cards.  "While this is in play" has been brought up.  Durations are another thing -- even though the card has been returned to the trash, you should still get the Duration effect next turn, but now you have nothing to remember it.  At least with Procession, the Procession stays in play until the next turn.

One other thing to think of is how it really differentiates itself from BoM.  Why look at the trash at all, instead of just the supply?  Your FT can copy bigger cards, but you could still implement that by looking at the supply.  It has fewer options to start, but you get to trash something from the supply with the next hand so it's still not so different.

[Showdown35]

You said that one problem you wanted to address was the burning of supply piles.  Using two cards instead of one doesn't fix that though -- your Dark Acolyte still empties piles.  The restriction you put on it (5 or more copies in supply, none in trash) help address the issue, but that doesn't warrant a separate card.

I don't think there are any conflicts with an instruction to trash a card that hasn't been gained.  "Trash a card from the Supply" is clear.

You said you made it two cards because one card is too easy and you wanted to "make it a little more work to use".  But your duo actually makes it easier to use!  Dark Acolyte gets top-decked when you gain it via Forbidden Tome, so you almost guarantee that you get to play it before Forbidden Tome.  Not only that, Dark Acolyte is a cantrip so it doesn't even slow down your deck.
 
Really, a simpler solution would probably be to put "trash an action card from the supply" as an on-gain effect on Forbidden Tome.

Your implementation has another issue -- tracking.  If you play a card from the trash and then immediately return it, that has odd implications for several other cards.  "While this is in play" has been brought up.  Durations are another thing -- even though the card has been returned to the trash, you should still get the Duration effect next turn, but now you have nothing to remember it.  At least with Procession, the Procession stays in play until the next turn.

One other thing to think of is how it really differentiates itself from BoM.  Why look at the trash at all, instead of just the supply?  Your FT can copy bigger cards, but you could still implement that by looking at the supply.  It has fewer options to start, but you get to trash something from the supply with the next hand so it's still not so different.

You have given me much to think on, good sir. Like I said in the original post, I threw together the mock ups quickly to get the idea onto a card. These comments you've made are just what I was hoping for. I'll let it all stew for a while and see what cooks!

[AJD]

Durations are another thing -- even though the card has been returned to the trash, you should still get the Duration effect next turn, but now you have nothing to remember it.  At least with Procession, the Procession stays in play until the next turn.

Why wouldn't this card stay in play until the next turn?

[Showdown35]

Durations are another thing -- even though the card has been returned to the trash, you should still get the Duration effect next turn, but now you have nothing to remember it.  At least with Procession, the Procession stays in play until the next turn.

Why wouldn't this card stay in play until the next turn?

I was wondering that too. The only thing I can think is that since Procession plays the card twice, it has an effect other than just playing the card and therefore stays in play to remind you that it was played twice. Where as Forbidden Tome just plays it normally.  I'd have to check the seaside rules again, but I think playing it and trashing it (or returning it to the trash) would warrent keeping it in play to remind about the duration effect.

EDIT: Just checked the rules: "if you play or modify a duration card with another card, that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything."  So ya, even if Forbidden Tome played and returned a duration card to the trash, the Tome itself would stay in play to remind you of the bonus.

[Davio]

But consider this example:

Procession-Procession-Wharf-Wharf.

This gets you 8 extra cards next turn with no indication that you would, because the Proc and Wharves get trashed.

[AJD]

But consider this example:

Procession-Procession-Wharf-Wharf.

This gets you 8 extra cards next turn with no indication that you would, because the Proc and Wharves get trashed.

Yep, that's true.

[Showdown35]

But consider this example:

Procession-Procession-Wharf-Wharf.

This gets you 8 extra cards next turn with no indication that you would, because the Proc and Wharves get trashed.

But how does that explain why Forbidden Tome wouldn't stay out as a reminder?  I'm not saying you think it doesn't, I'm just saying the point of the rules clarification.

[eHalcyon]

I think AJD is correct.  My bad.