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[ashersky]

For once, I actually have a town read on Robz. So no.

This is because Robz is your scum partner.

[liopoil]

I'm fine with a robz lynch, probably my second choice.

[mail-mi]

Eh, he's null for me. If it is obvious that it will be him, then sure I'll vote.

My preference:
e
teproc
Robz
volt
ichi
ash

[Ichimaru Gin]

Eh, he's null for me. If it is obvious that it will be him, then sure I'll vote.

My preference:
e
teproc
Robz
volt
ichi
ash

Is that in order of most wanting to lynch first?

[mail-mi]

Eh, he's null for me. If it is obvious that it will be him, then sure I'll vote.

My preference:
e
teproc
Robz
volt
ichi
ash

Is that in order of most wanting to lynch first?

yes

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. So what, 2 days til the deadline?

I'm happy with my vote on Teproc for right now, although I found his response interesting.

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.
The other ones: Voltaire, Robz, chairs? not liking as much.
I am also willing to vote Lekkit, cause if we're going to lynch a lurker, I think it should be him.

[yuma]

Ok. So what, 2 days til the deadline?

I'm happy with my vote on Teproc for right now, although I found his response interesting.

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.
The other ones: Voltaire, Robz, chairs? not liking as much.
I am also willing to vote Lekkit, cause if we're going to lynch a lurker, I think it should be him.

How do you mean interesting? Like interesting as in a townie way or interesting in a scummy way? Interesting is a very ambiguous word in this game.

Yes, Lekkit. I could lynch Lekkit. Obviously I would like him to post hence for the request for the prod.

In fact vote: lekkit He has had 2 posts this week and both were him saying he wasn't going to be around much. Man, this is unacceptable!

Add in that I found this post scummy back in the day (I had forgotten he had posted it until I went back to see the last time Lekkit had a post with content):

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

This whole post just rings false to me... It is like the island of easy mislynches (assuming of course that these three are mislynches, which I guess is something of a stretch) except for Voltaire where Lekkit is moving a a scumread to a townread based solely off fitting in with the general perception seems scummy to me.

This was his last real post of the game. It was posted on December 23rd. I said it was scummy and he hans't responded to it or anything else for the rest of the day. Keep in mind that Lekkit is very capable of lurking as scum. He was lynched for it in Buffy and lurked to an extent in Major Arcana 2 as well.

I'll go back to Teproc or maybe Robz--it looks like there isn't any support for a lio lynch for some reason???--and am certainly willing to consider other options. I think chairs and ash are probably the two I wouldn't lynch at this juncture.

[yuma]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

As robz said I unvoted Ichimaru not you. This and the fact that you are misrepresenting what I am saying about your lurking shows that you aren't reading very closely...

Let me again (I think this is the third or fourth time I have said this... in fact I'll pull up a quote)

I think you have been lurky day2--VLA aside--not in terms of post count but rather that you really only had a back and forth with ash that really didn't require you to post anything other than bickering back and forth. You aren't the only player that has lurker or lacked content day2, but this isn't the sole reason I was voting you.

Quantity isn't important. Content is. I challenge you to show me where you have posted content aside from your argument with ashersky day2 (if you can call that content) and your defense of yourself

Mods: it is a bit late for it, but it helps a lot if you change the subject line to reflect the current gameday, this allows us to easily see what game state day a post was posted. If this could be done for future days I would really appreciate it! Thanks!

[liopoil]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

As robz said I unvoted Ichimaru not you. This and the fact that you are misrepresenting what I am saying about your lurking shows that you aren't reading very closely...

Let me again (I think this is the third or fourth time I have said this... in fact I'll pull up a quote)

I think you have been lurky day2--VLA aside--not in terms of post count but rather that you really only had a back and forth with ash that really didn't require you to post anything other than bickering back and forth. You aren't the only player that has lurker or lacked content day2, but this isn't the sole reason I was voting you.

Quantity isn't important. Content is. I challenge you to show me where you have posted content aside from your argument with ashersky day2 (if you can call that content) and your defense of yourself

in that case, what is the point of your post counts?

sorry, I missed the vote on ichimaru, and I do remember the second thing now. Yep, I haven't been reading terribly closely. Full catch-up tomorrow

[yuma]

in that case, what is the point of your post counts?

They are an easy way to get an overview of what is going on in the game. I don't and never have recommended going solely off them, but to rather use them as a jumping off point to see what is going on with a specific player... look at lekkit or teproc for example. Seeing their low end post counts, I can then go back and actually look at their posts specifically and individually and go from there.

I like it because it is a trigger for me to see something that I might not otherwise see in a casual reread.

[Lekkit]

I have been busy. And more business coming up. I'll most likely be online somewhere between 10 hours from now until 18 hours from now. I'm not sure when that is in your time zones.

I know I have been very lurky. There's nothing more for me to say about that. I'm heading to bed now, since it's 5 am.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. So what, 2 days til the deadline?

I'm happy with my vote on Teproc for right now, although I found his response interesting.

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.
The other ones: Voltaire, Robz, chairs? not liking as much.
I am also willing to vote Lekkit, cause if we're going to lynch a lurker, I think it should be him.

How do you mean interesting? Like interesting as in a townie way or interesting in a scummy way? Interesting is a very ambiguous word in this game.

Interesting in the sense that I am somewhat unsure what to make of it--and his response was also unexpected. Originally, I read it as townie, but now I don't think so. I can see that scum might try the "buddying" approach as I believe you said. This being a social game and all, there are certain psychological influences that can make you want to reciprocate the actions of other players towards you. But it seems like that just makes you easy for scum to manipulate then.

[Lekkit]

In fact vote: lekkit He has had 2 posts this week and both were him saying he wasn't going to be around much. Man, this is unacceptable!

I'm not sure if you've had to work over the holidays with cleaning up the mess that others make. But I can tell you it sucks. This paragraph is very much an IRL thing: I have been very busy at work and not really had the motivation to get into this game when I've had some free time. I even considered dropping out of the game, but figured it would get better after the holidays. I know that I was selfish in taking up a spot being inactive in the hopes of getting back into the game later. But I don't think that makes it unacceptable. With that out of the way I'll be moving on to ingame stuff now.

Add in that I found this post scummy back in the day (I had forgotten he had posted it until I went back to see the last time Lekkit had a post with content):

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

This whole post just rings false to me... It is like the island of easy mislynches (assuming of course that these three are mislynches, which I guess is something of a stretch) except for Voltaire where Lekkit is moving a a scumread to a townread based solely off fitting in with the general perception seems scummy to me.

This was his last real post of the game. It was posted on December 23rd. I said it was scummy and he hans't responded to it or anything else for the rest of the day. Keep in mind that Lekkit is very capable of lurking as scum. He was lynched for it in Buffy and lurked to an extent in Major Arcana 2 as well.

[/quote]

This is not the first time in this game where people tell me that I haven't responded to stuff they've said. Seriously, what do you want me to say? "Nope, I don't think this is scummy. I think you're wrong."? Allright, I'll give it a try:

They might be mislynches, but I still think they are the scummiest around. And the fact that they might be mislynches is not going to stop me from finding them scummy or make me want to not vote for them. It's not how the game works. "You are scummy, but I can't be 100% sure that you're not town, so I'll not lynch you.". Also, I don't agree with you that it is scummy to find the scummiest players scummy. Also, why should we not listen to the other players abou their opinions on the other players? I'm not that confident that I'm the only one that can read people here and that I'm the best at it. I don't think changing one's opinion about a player due to other players' thoughs is very scummy.

I was also lynched for lurking in one of Grujahs Pirate games (I think it was number 2), where I was town. I don't really think that "Lekkit lurks as scum" is a good argument. On the other hand, I don't think that "Lekkit always lurk" is a good defence either. But it is kind of true. I'm not as active as most members here.

I'll go back to Teproc or maybe Robz--it looks like there isn't any support for a lio lynch for some reason???--and am certainly willing to consider other options. I think chairs and ash are probably the two I wouldn't lynch at this juncture.

Why not chairs? You're currently voting me for not being here. Why not chairs?

[Robz888]

So, it looks like ash lynch is a no go? I don't really like the Teproc lynch though. I don't really understand what it's based on, and if it's wrong, I don't know how it helps us POE anyone else.

Better lynches I would get behind... probably liopoil, possibly chairs.

[ashersky]

26 hours to deadline, yes?

[ashersky]

Vote Count ash2.5

ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, Liopoil
Robz888 (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (1): Lekkit
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Teproc (3): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi
Lekkit (1): yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

Updated vote count above.

Top wagons are ashersky and Teproc.  It'd be helpful to hear what the Teproc case is.  I'm still unsure.  Hilariously, all my scum reads are on the two wagons.

We need some action here.

[yuma]

This is not the first time in this game where people tell me that I haven't responded to stuff they've said. Seriously, what do you want me to say? "Nope, I don't think this is scummy. I think you're wrong."? Allright, I'll give it a try:

They might be mislynches, but I still think they are the scummiest around. And the fact that they might be mislynches is not going to stop me from finding them scummy or make me want to not vote for them. It's not how the game works. "You are scummy, but I can't be 100% sure that you're not town, so I'll not lynch you.". Also, I don't agree with you that it is scummy to find the scummiest players scummy. Also, why should we not listen to the other players abou their opinions on the other players? I'm not that confident that I'm the only one that can read people here and that I'm the best at it. I don't think changing one's opinion about a player due to other players' thoughs is very scummy.

I was also lynched for lurking in one of Grujahs Pirate games (I think it was number 2), where I was town. I don't really think that "Lekkit lurks as scum" is a good argument. On the other hand, I don't think that "Lekkit always lurk" is a good defence either. But it is kind of true. I'm not as active as most members here.

I'll go back to Teproc or maybe Robz--it looks like there isn't any support for a lio lynch for some reason???--and am certainly willing to consider other options. I think chairs and ash are probably the two I wouldn't lynch at this juncture.

Why not chairs? You're currently voting me for not being here. Why not chairs?

I am sorry you have been so stressed out and busy that doesn't sound fun.

I was hoping now that you are here to hear your thoughts on other players as well as a response to my points on you (thanks for responding at least), like have your opinions changed at all since the dec 23rd post?

The fact that you find players scummy isn't the issue it is who and why. Your reasons for them being scummy were pretty run of the mill and easy. That makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. And yes,, losing a scumread isn't in and of itself scummy, but rather again why. You lose it because of what other people think--scum want to assimilate and blend in, hence me finding it scummy of you. It isn't like you say volt is townie because his behavior is townie but rather that "a lot of other players seems to think he's towny"

as for chairs, I agree I would like more from him, but we probably aren't going to get it... so yeah, if it were just that he could be considered for a lynch, but there is the whole day1 claim thing with him, so all things aren't equal if you compare you and him (add in that he has received very little support for a lynch despite one player clamoring for (2.7?) it) so if we are going to lynch a lurker you are a better candidate. that and I have a scum read on you opposed to more of a null read on chairs.

[ashersky]

yuma, any plans to move your vote?  Or is a Lekkit lynch still viable.

He's in my second set of possible scum, so I could vote for him if it's going to work out.

I'm still at Volt > Robz >>> Lekkit = Ichimaru

[yuma]

yuma, any plans to move your vote?  Or is a Lekkit lynch still viable.

He's in my second set of possible scum, so I could vote for him if it's going to work out.

I'm still at Volt > Robz >>> Lekkit = Ichimaru

We don't know if a Lekkit lynch is viable or not unfortunately as only half the town has posted since I initially voted for him....

I also want to get his updated reads and thoughts about basically the entire day...

[yuma]

I should note that again I won't be online for the deadline (I will be slaving along at work... i.e. killing time cause it is dead cause nobody goes to the doctor's during the holidays if they can help it), but will get online before I head out in the morning and place my vote where I think the best lynch is most likely to happen

[liopoil]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

Would much rather lynch ash or robz. teproc, eh, maybe, I need to look at whatever the case on him is closer.

oh, I don't buy ash's case on volt at all either, as I think I mentioned. I had some reasons for thinking he was town on D1 too.

that leaves:

yuma, e, chairs, and mail-mi as the remaining people. Not particularly against lynching any of these three. Chairs I think is my third choice behind robz actually, yuma, e and mail-mi are pretty null. so in order from most to least in each category:

want to lynch: ashersky, robz, chairs
not opposed to lynching: yuma, e, mail-mi
opposed to lynching: liopoil, voltaire, ichimaru, lekkit

Teproc is not listed because I'm going to go look for the reasons behind the votes on him now.

[liopoil]

So in short I think Teproc is scummy because

1. He flipped back and forth about Ash D1, a lot. And generally had a lot of light reads on people which he shifted around, often contradicting each other. I know that there's not a lot of information D1, but such unaccountable behavior reads scum to me. And as I have already mentioned, he avoided suspicion for this.

 2. I read boldness and certainty (even over-certainty) as town. Teproc's general lack of conviction on most of his votes reads scum to me. Although Ash is getting flak for his early "100%" read on Faust, I think extreme statements elicit extreme responses--thereby making it harder for scum to hide in ambiguity--something I believe Teproc to be doing.

3. Everything is WIFOM? Well it's pretty obvious that a lot of his cases do follow this. e.g. this behavior could be interpreted as town or scum trying to get town cred, but for really no reason at all, I believe the latter.
Still, I think this statement is just an excuse/cover-up for poor scumhunting on Teproc's part. WIFOM is basically an argument out of thin air--given the semblance of conviction through bias.

seems to me like all of these boil down to him not having solid reads D1, and him changing his mind. Slight oversimplification, but not by much. I have no problem with teproc not being terribly confident that people are scum, and changing your mind is a good thing... we don't want to discourage that.

[liopoil]

vote: teproc.

Ichimaru's case has some points that are ok and some that aren't, but what struck me was how Teproc responded:

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

It isn't the same as mail-mi's classic "this is a good case on me" when he was scum in whatever game that was, but it is a cousin of sorts as Teproc basically says that Ichimaru has some valid points. Add to it a subtle hint of buddying by unvoting and ultimately getting a read of town from it...

what do you expect him to do, say he wasn't changing his mind?

but apart from that, this is interesting. The 'that post was very convincing' and him not suspecting ichimaru as much as he did before is suspicious.

[yuma]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

This is true to a point. But I feel like in both situations the frustrating for me has been the unwillingness of people to even explore the lynch as a possibility... like today (and yesterday) to an extent as well has seen an extreme absence of wagon building... today's biggest wagon was what? three people?

I am not suggesting that we need to get a bunch of players to L-1, but rather that part of building to a lynch is gauging reactions to that sort of pressure (and I am not talking about just voting for pressure, but voting because of something scummy and then seeing where the wagon leads), but that hasn't happened today, people have been so hesitant to vote, but rather have been very quick to dismiss potential wagons from the get-go. Why? Obviously this can't all be mafia because nearly everyone is doing it to an extent. Instead people have voted and then sat on that vote all by their lonesomes all day long...

Is this something that mafia would be more prone to do? Again I am sure there are town examples of this because multiple players are doing it, but is this an area where mafia is more likely to be? I kinda feel like I am grasping at straws and that this is just a day1 all over again...

[yuma]

vote: teproc.

Ichimaru's case has some points that are ok and some that aren't, but what struck me was how Teproc responded:

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

It isn't the same as mail-mi's classic "this is a good case on me" when he was scum in whatever game that was, but it is a cousin of sorts as Teproc basically says that Ichimaru has some valid points. Add to it a subtle hint of buddying by unvoting and ultimately getting a read of town from it...

what do you expect him to do, say he wasn't changing his mind?

but apart from that, this is interesting. The 'that post was very convincing' and him not suspecting ichimaru as much as he did before is suspicious.

No... I expect town to be more like robz was a while ago saying "this is true, but why does it make me scum" sort of reaction. Teproc's here is kinda saying "this is true... WIFOM"

The line between the two is close I suppose but the later is much more of a reaction from scum, whereas I think the former more of a townie reaction.

We need to get something going... I am going back to vote: teproc